@Downgoat yep

Good programmer: deflate the tires and roll the truck through. Problem solved!

@Mego just so you don't think I'm lazily sitting out your bounty, I actually tried adding a couple of languages since you started it, but it's pretty hard to improve the score of the current polyglot, because the Fission quine makes long lines expensive and the most promising language I found (Pushy) doesn't like non-ASCII source files.

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Or: be a goat and slowly eat the truck

what

99% sure they are made mostly of aluminum

$ ./open-pod-bay-doors
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
$ chmod 755 open-pod-bay-doors
$ ./open-pod-bay-doors

@Downgoat How goat eat aluminum?

In form of aluminum can

(inspired off of this silly animation)

@Downgoat what.... how

You can compile Python scripts. They go to .pyc when you import them automatically, as if it was a minified version. You can transport only .pyc and run it.

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ do you know if all python installations come with a Python.h and all?

@Downgoat huh?

see edit

@Downgoat I think so

Run this script:

import bz2, base64
exec(bz2.decompress(base64.b64decode('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…

Autogolfed.

$ pyminifier --bzip2 -O main-s.py

from __future__ import print_function
K=raw_input
r=open
X=print
P=ImportError
G=False
Y=range
T=len
d=True
t=None
from string import printable
import sys
h=sys.stdout
I=sys.exit
x=sys.stdin
input=K
h.write('Loading... ')
o=r('words.txt').read().split('\n')
X('done.')
R=0
c=''
class D:
 def __init__(O):
  try:
   O.impl=F()
  except P:
   O.impl=k()
 def __call__(O):return O.impl()
class k:
 def __init__(O):
  import tty,sys
   h=sys.stdout
   I=sys.exit
   x=sys.stdin
 def __call__(O):
  import sys,tty,termios

explanation?

:D got prime generation down to 5ms

@Downgoat Run it, it's a program that does text autocomplete

It's way too hard to buy decent passiv monitors. I have an amp, I don't need a new one. Yet all I can find are either sets or crap no-name ones.

a<tab> -> about

Very useful.

@mınxomaτ Passive monitors?

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Yes (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_monitor)

Huh.

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ it's bad enough on my iphone. I don't think I need r<tab> becoming rm instead of rsync

@Downgoat no, it's not for shell commands. For english.

Wait, it doesn't include the wordlist I used :/

shit that joke didn't work :(

zsh: do you wish to see all >9000 possibilities (50 lines)?

even if each possibility is only one character, your terminal must be at least 180 characters wide; in practice you're probably going to need something like four times that even with the optimal arrangement of possibilities

/r/theydidthemath

Here it is with the wordlist, compressed & minified:

import bz2,base64
exec(bz2.decompress(base64.b64decode('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…

1.8x compression ratio

It would have to be a language with a rather short quine, and I don't know most of the golfing languages well enough to be able to polyglot them into the rest. 2D languages are more convenient for polyglotting, but Fission is a bit exceptional in how short and simple its quine is.

watch this silly animation

exactly 1 total click

it should be bad programmer vs. good programmer

Hi, @Lynn!

@Downgoat Python.h is part of the development package and not necessarily installed with Python.

Oh... that will be problem

How so?

Cheddar will fail to install if Python.h does not exist :(

So add it as a dependency. I assume isn't the only one.

PHP is shit, but open source and free.

Thing is NPM will install all dependencies but it can't install stuff like Python

I'll have to do away with nice NPM installation this means :(

You can add a npm install cheddar-lang-no-bindings

Not exactly how npm works :P

Someone needs to tell the world that not all cheese is cheddar

I'm curious: Why do you need a C header file for Python libraries for a programming language implemented in JavaScript?

JavaScript is slow so I'm rewriting piece by piece in C++

Oh, so Cheddar will be written in C++ some day?

Yes

Why do you need Python?

Nice. How does Python fit into this though?

ninja'd

Just add a compile switch

Ability to use python libs in Cheddar

#ifdef _PYTHON

@quartata I'd love to but NPM don't like such things

Then load it dynamically

You mean like store the dlls & dylibs?

There is seriously a Polandball World game and it's been greenlit on steam...

No I mean like check the library path for libpython

@Downgoat That's cool! Did you see RPython and PyPy's JIT toolchain? You write your interpreter in RPython, and PyPy's JIT jits it automatically

Oh I'm doing that

Then open it and extract symbols if there is

That doesn't require linking against it

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Haha

@Downgoat you're rewriting piece by piece? Why not from scratch? I don't see how you can mix the two in the middle of migrating

@DJMcMayhem Using SWIG or such presumably

@DJMcMayhem Honestly I don't know enough C++ to conpletely make Cheddar so I'm kinda filling in the gaps

Building C/C++ code is much more painful that coding the code itself

Get an IDE then

I know you're a Mac person, but visual studio is pretty great

@quartata what's SWIG?

@DJMcMayhem That doesn't solve the problem. Only hides it

I guess so, but if you have good tools at your disposal, there's no reason not to use them

@Downgoat Huh?

Although it's true that using an IDE makes cross-platform harder

@DJMcMayhem Why does that?

if you're talking about windows for C++ develop, I really can't because Windows is completely different from Linux/Mac and considering this is a programming language I need to target non-Windows platforms probably more than windows

@Downgoat they made a ruby interpreter. RPython is very low level

Does it have significant whitespace?

@Downgoat How bad could it be!?

idk. Vim works for me atm :P I have a plugin which shows C++ code errors

@Downgoat CLion! As far as C++ IDEs go, they're all the same

@Downgoat That's baloney. Say what you will about Windows, but it's still the most used OS in the world

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Because it abstracts the build process so that you can build it in one click

Most build options and stuff like that come down to metadata and project configuration

Can you write a minimal version of Cheddar and then use that to write a Cheddar compiler, and then bootstrap from there?

@trichoplax Problem is I can't write a fast compiler so you'll end up with progressively slower code :P

What if you compile Cheddar to C, and then let the C compiler do the optimising?

D: that's hard tho

Idk how to handle all the different platforms

I can barely write C code myself anyway :P

@Downgoat I'd be interested in helping out with a C++ rewrite,I just have no idea where to start

Neither do I :P

Though first thing is I need to do is rewrite the expression evaluator in C++

that will increase speed by like 10000x

If you are more familiar with Python-like syntax, you could write your initial basic Cheddar compiler in Nim, which already compiles to C to benefit from the C compiler's optimisation.

@Downgoat but it doesn't make sense to have that half of it in C++ and the other half in JS

Unless there's some way to bridge them that I don't know about it

Yes there is

github.com/nodejs/node-gyp

node-gyp is node pretty much

since node is V8 + a bunch of functions

V8 can generate a C++ file from JS so I was thinking I could do that and then do a GCC -O3 on that C++ file but embedding Node in V8 is hard

Question: is there any reason to not always use -O3?

If you want to compile quicker?

Is that it?

I don't know much about C++ optimisation. Do the extreme optimisations make substitutions that are not guaranteed to give identical results?

Like rearranging an expression in a way that is mathematically correct, but potentially gives a different result due to floating point mysteries

I know -Ofast will do optimizations that will mess up floating-point accuracy but I don't believe -O3 does

TIL: If your JS function is < 600 chars, V8 will inline it

otherwise there's no way to tell V8 to inline

I don't know how much longer -O3 takes than -O2

Does it inline recursively? Can you split your function?

Not sure, I added -O3 to my prime generator and time for generating primes under 1000 decreased to 5ms from 8ms

@trichoplax That's what I was thinking

however it's more likely I have a colossal memory leak somewhere

@Downgoat Annoying if that's the only way though...

-O3 makes the code worse rather than better sometimes

although it is normally an improvement, it turns on riskier optimizations

^^

-O2 is safer/more stable

Also depends on your platform.

Does "worse" ever mean slower here?

also -Os is sometimes faster than -O3 because sometimes the limiting factor is cache pressure rather than CPU cycles

@trichoplax sure, sometimes nonsensical too

let me find an example

Ah right

@Dennis still not working

typedef struct { long value; long code; } YYVAL;

YYVAL yylex_wrapper(long *argloc)
{
    YYVAL v;
    v.value = argloc[0];
    v.code = argloc[1];
    return v;
}

ew flex

D:

Why is flex bad?

here, this is a very cut-down example from a much large piece of code (which was part of a lex implementation, not flex though)

try running it in gcc -O2 and -O3 and comparing

with -S to look at the output asm

@Downgoat Just a nuisance, especially when working with C++.

I'd rather lex by hand.

I'm using gcc 5.4.0, its output on -O3 is mindboggingly awful

it's theoretically correct but it does way more work than -O2 does in a way that just cancels itself out

and ends up having to run all the code it'd generate with -O2 anyway

So it doesn't test against -O2 at compile time? If it turns out worse it just goes with it anyway?

yes

gcc's internals are complex enough that doing the test would be difficult

the thing about this function is that it has a really clear, simple, and probably unimprovable way to write it in asm

-O2 finds it

-O3 comes up with an utter disaster

Hello

I don't usually have much contact with C++ code but I happened to look at an optimised mandelbrot program the other day and it mentioned using SSE. It made me wonder if that's still relevant or whether modern compilers can apply that automatically

they can but they can't match hand-tuned code for doing the same thing

and they often miss it even in fairly straight-forward circumstances

@DestructibleWatermelon Not sure how I could debug this; it works on all my devices and in all my browsers. Could you check your console if there are any messages. Could you execute languages.recreational.nameIdPairs[93] and tell me what it returns?

if you write a very simple loop that happens to work very well with SSE, the compiler will probably spot it, anything more complex you'd be lucky to get an improvement based on SSE, AVX, or the like

although the state of autovectorisation is getting better as time goes on

That's interesting - thank you.

@Dennis Array [ "Turtlèd", "turtled" ]

Well, that's correct. And no errors?

In the console, I mean.

At which point exactly does it say the language isn't supported?

Nevermind, I found the error.

@Dennis Question: What version of node do you use on TIO?

@DestructibleWatermelon You said I picked Turtlèd from the list of languages, so I kept trying to pick it and everything was fine. It took me waaay to long to realize that you were getting the error when you tried to run Turtlèd code. As you expected, it was indeed a Unicode issue. The run function searched for the UTF-8 string representation of the name instead of the UTF-16 string representation. I fixed that and it should work now.

@Downgoat I have two versions of Node: 7.2.0 for the JavaScript (Node) interpreter, and 4.6.1 to run interpreters written in JavaScript.

Great. My poor old laptop can't run The Witness or even Age of Mythology (the new, extended (and remastered?) version) for very long before it crashes. Time to start looking at parts for building a desktop computer...

@Dennis hm.. okay thanks

@Downgoat -O3 is often slower than -O2

@Dennis thanks

C is close to asm.js. And anything will compile to asm.js

wth brainfreeze.ga was spammed by a russian advocating for trump:motherboard.vice.com/read/…

I got a ton of referrals from posts by this vitaly guy on reddit, twitter, lifehacker, washington post

@Downgoat can cheddar do if (1 < x < 50) {?

No

but I could add that..

I dunno, not sure how overloading would work for such conditions however

oh, I see will do

bah, my question is no good because the pastebin it uses is down!

@Downgoat python can do it! It's syntactic sugar for 1 < x and x < 50

A great, high production quality, touching video on SpaceX's Falcon 9 landing. About their history. Cuts from previous prototype landings.

@Downgoat y u maek cheddar C++, me has to learn new language now :(

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ oh wow, really

the last one is how you do operator overloading

>>> 2 < 3 < 4
True
>>> 2 < 9 < 4
False

btw, is anyone here decent at ASCII arts?

for a... uhh... challenge, I'm making I need an ascii art representation of this image:

gph.is/2i8NDCW

@Downgoat I could try to convert it to grayscale and make density art

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ space-plane-crash

yup

"Look! We were only a few hundred feet away!"

@LegionMammal978 Oh, does mathematica have build-in for that too? :P

Do we have a prime factorization challenge yet? I couldn't find one with a quick search

@Downgoat Should take about 4-5 builtins, I've done it before

:O

"Only minor damage to the barge."

mathematica has a builtin for everything

including not opening the pod bay doors

Nevermind, found it:

It's almost 6 years old though, perhaps we could use a new one

> ASCII Art Generator

Oops, ninja'd

> Uses Unicode

Jelly can do that in four bytes if you don't have to worry about the output format (two to find the factors, two to run-length-encode them into value/exponent pairs)

@ETHproductions Make a better one and close the old one as a dupe?

if you care about the format it's going to be somewhat longer, and most of the output code will be formatting

shoot, I've only got 4 minutes to write a better one

Or 1 hour and 4 minutes

@ais523 "****ing Jelly man!"

@ETHproductions Chasing a hat, I see... :P

https://media.giphy.com/media/L0sf17aqc6CNW/giphy.gif

ofc, if you don't change the spec, you'd be able to do it in 0 bytes; someone created a language specifically for the challenge, which obviously got rejected for cheating

but it'd predate the new challenge

gah, please stop doing that, I'm on a metered connection and animated gifs use up more bandwidth than I'd like

and SE doesn't seem to have an option to turn images off

I blocked images in my browser for now but it's a setting I keep forgetting to turn on for this

thanks :-)

@El'endiaStarman Well, I managed to earn a hat that wasn't on my list, but I'm still 2 behind Mego

I'm ignoring this whole hats thing intentionally

I won't talk about it if you don't want me to

https://media.giphy.com/media/YOImc88TaRSgM/giphy.gif

nah, it's OK

but don't want to be sucked into it myself

I'm vaguely curious as to what ridiculous things people are doing for hats

@ais523 You know, disregarding site rules, doing random, disruptive things, abusing privileges, the usual.

Dennis actually posted a challenge to earn a hat

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ:

@ETHproductions Two, actually.

To earn three hats.

@El'endiaStarman Oh, didn't see that.

No luck with Egoist though.

^^ best title ever

Damn, @PhiNotPi entered just in time for New Sandboxed Posts posted his challenge

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ I've complained about animated GIFs more times than I can count.

So, I made my first colorscheme for vim.

@NewSandboxedPosts You could always title it "Generate 'Fractalgoat'"

@Doorknob wow that is painful

@Doorknob oh... um... that is pretty like sheeps? :P

@Dennis Really? I rarely see a Jelly answer with less than 3 votes

I answered in Python though. The Jelly answer has 7 upvotes.

@Doorknob Hotdog theme is best theme.

@PhiNotPi Excellent! Mission accomplished.

@Doorknob Lol at the user testimonials.

^

some Jelly answers should be upvoted, some should be ignored really

THAT'S NOT HOW WE DO THINGS HERE -- @NewMainPosts

actually, nowadays when I see a question with an uninteresting Jelly answer, it tends to cause me to downvote the question

@ais523 I think that goes for all languages.

@Doorknob Wait what's up with the line numbers? O_o

Dammit Dennis, you're ahead of me now

Goes from 14 -> 0 -> 6

@Downgoat They're relative line numbers. :h rnu

oh

if a question's uncreative enough that Jelly already has a builtin for it, perhaps it shouldn't have been asked

that's useful Nevermind, they don't work with <whatever>G D:

Dammit edit button, you ruined my life

@Maltysen hahahahahaha

(come to think of it, I think Brachylog has a builtin for prime factorization too, although it's fairly terrible at output formatting; Brachylog takes about twice the characters to do anything that I'd like from a golfing language)

@Doorknob relative?

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ relative to line the cursor is on

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ To the line the cursor is on, yes.

That is the first hat that actually fits my avatar.

@Downgoat That's what <num>j and <num>k are for.

<-- (not that one)

So I got a totally dank Pebble smartwatch as a present (you know, that company which went bankrupt earlier this month), and I really like their online development environment.

Lol, put in /r/tautologies to see if it's a thing

Turns out, it has 2 posts from last month

do they both say the same thing? :-D

@Doorknob >_> oh... duh

@ais523 I respectfully disagree. There are many challenges which are built-ins in golfing languages, but it's usually interesting to solve it in a language without the built-in or just by not using the built-in.

@quartata I actually thought that my game had suddenly become super popular overnight, then I noticed that like half the hits were from russia

@ETHproductions As the author of Jam don't add like that, I agree.

@ETHproductions that's fair enough, I guess; although in many of the golfing languages there's normally a way to do it with a slightly different built-in too

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Would you consider making this a regular code golf so it can be reopened? I think my answer shows clearly that it doesn't make sense as a CnR.

in languages where existing library functions tend to take a lot of boilerplate to call, and thus you have to do it arithmetic-only, that can be interesting

@NewMainPosts I wish I was a mod so I could edit that message

@ETHproductions Done.

ಠ_ಠ

hey anyone wanna play brainfreeze.ga

> You cannot star your own messages

also brainfreeze.ga says press key on keyboard but it doesn't work like that

@DestructibleWatermelon that must be a bug?

do you have focus?

yeah...

weird

but clicking works?

yup

Some year there should be a secret hat for starring a message more than a month old

@DestructibleWatermelon are you on mobile?

nope

you're pressing the right answer?

I got the Winterbash notification for a hat I was already wearing...

Got excited for a moment. Thought I caught up with Mego...

@DestructibleWatermelon you have an english keyboard? maybe that might be a problem

yeah

Hey is anyone at all interested in a KOTH I'm making?

@DestructibleWatermelon that really depends on what it is

I find doing well at KotHs takes a lot of time, so they have to be good enough to make it worth putting the time in

it's the one that is a maze koth, which is a bit like capture the flag, however instead of capturing, it is destroying, and also the flags are artifacts or something

sounds complex

and reminds me somewhat of the koth minigame in the generation 4 Pokémon games (which didn't actually work all that well in practice)

not too complex

far less complex than Fellowship for example

also there are guns

did Fellowship ever get updated for the latest bots?

it's the sort of challenge which you can come back to every few months and play against yourself if nobody else is there

but without the thread being updated there's not much point

Woah. Imgur, a site that normally heavily discourages selfies, is absolutely overrun with selfies today. Well done, User Sub...well done.

Any suggestions for tags, test cases, ..., anything else that can be improved?

@ETHproductions oh, that's two bytes in Jelly :-D

would be interesting to find the second-shortest solution though

I think you should allow the answer to be potentially returned in an arbitrary (non-sorted) order

most languages won't care about that, but it helps to have an explicit rule

incidentally, there's already a standard program (factor) for doing that, so arguably it's a 0-character solution

@ais523 Good point, fixed.

I'd recommend making this winner-per-language if you possibly can

otherwise you're going to force people to submit dubious 0-byte solutions that have about an equal chance of being upvoted and downvoted

with winner-per-language that doesn't really matter, and the challenge is simple and broadly applicable enough that you might be able to get away with it

In general, my submissions that I think are most likely to be downvoted, often are downvoted, but sometimes are upvoted into the stratosphere, and it can be very hard to guess which will happen; I have a theory that people are just playing follow-the-leader.

but it makes it very hard to know whether I should submit them or not

Winner-per-language is supposed to be the default, I think. Though I suppose that if that means never accepting an answer, then I guess not.

I've edited to make it more explicit, though perhaps it could be worded better.

many people think that not having a single winner is grounds to close the question, although many people disagree with them

so people agree that it's a good question but disagree on what the answer is

there's a Meta post trying to settle the matter but the highest-voted answer is at 0, with most negative

@Mego see, I disagree even with that, I think you should be able to point to two answers in the same language and say "this one's better than that one"

but I think it's OK for answers to be a) tied, or b) incomparable if they're in very different languages

I think I'm possibly in the minority, but I'm not sure

But then we have "this really slow Python answer is better than that really fast Python answer because the slow one was posted first"

yours would disallow a challenge, e.g. "the answer that works in the most languages wins" (because there might be a tie, in which case you couldn't objectively point to a single answer)

I suppose we could get around that by having this system: 1) byte count, 2) speed of code, 3) earlier submission, 4) hot dog eating contest

@ETHproductions I'd definitely lose on the last one.

in general I think tiebreaks hurt rather than help, because they force you to optimise for the tiebreak rather than for whatever secondary criteria you might find most interesting

also I'm not sure I've ever eaten a hot dog

....on second thought, maybe I'd win in some situations... :P

@ais523 "the answer that works in the most languages wins" I'm not sure I understand...

because two people can submit answers that each work in 5 languages

and there's no tiebreak stated there

Oh, well duh. I thought you were still talking about regular code-golf challenges

(for the curious, I actually have a question that was closed on this basis, although it was reopened after I added a tiebreak)

also, "still"? I tend not to assume challenges are code-golf, although of course most are

The discussion started out on a code-golf challenge, so I just assumed...

actually I have some doubts as to code-golf as a victory condition; it breaks down in one way with simple problems (golfing languages tend to have a rich set of builtins which will describe the entire problem), and a different way with complex problems (nearly always, the shortest answer in bytes is to generate everything that fulfils the syntax for a correct answer, then check to see if it matches the specification; in general these programs can't be practically run)

Should I mention something about voting on trivial solutions?

I suppose I could post a comment like this one.

@Dennis Of course! I didn't think the community would like it if it was turned into code golf

Well, the community doesn't like it in its current state, so it's worth a shot ;-)

I'm going to post the factorization challenge momentarily, unless there's a good reason I shouldn't

Man, I need to work on not mixing tenses in chat messages