The Nineteenth Byte

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:22

@TuxCopter it does stuff in .pyi files

TuxCopter

What are .pyi files

Gabriel Benamy

@TuxCopter python yourself it

TuxCopter

Oh, stub files

Lynn

00:47

Chat mini-challenge! Print anything to stdout in Python 3 without using parentheses.

@xnor @Dennis ^ You Python golfers might like this. I might be missing something obvious, but my solution is pretty tricky/fun

Dennis

import this

Lynn

Dang it, I forgot about that!!

But I didn’t think of it, so hey, I’ll count it. I recommend looking for an import this-less solution, though~

TuxCopter

'night

Conor O'Brien

@Lynn 0 bytes, call python without a file :P

Dennis

@Lynn import __hello__ :P

Lynn

00:53

Why does that even exist…?!

TuxCopter

Because Python

El'endia Starman

>>> import sys
>>> sys.stderr = sys.stdout
>>> 1/0
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#27>", line 1, in <module>
    1/0
ZeroDivisionError: division by zero

Output is blue in IDLE, not red.

Lynn

Oh, I like that one a lot!

Conor O'Brien

wait that's good

xnor

i was actually just trying the same thing and it didn't work in 3.5.2

El'endia Starman

00:58

@xnor Huh, they must've changed that after 3.5.0.

xnor

oh, it works in the REPL

but not if you execute from a file

Conor O'Brien

C:\Users\Conor O'Brien
λ python -c "import sys;sys.stderr=sys.stdout;1/0" 2>nul
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
ZeroDivisionError: division by zero

Dennis

@xnor Works here. tio.run/nexus/…

El'endia Starman

@Lynn Does list(map(print, [1,2,3])) count as "using parentheses"? They're not associated with the print function...

Lynn

That’s invalid; I count four parentheses.

Conor O'Brien

01:00

0 + 3 bytes for non-standard invocation, python -v -c ""

Lynn

~ % cat q.py
import sys
sys.stderr=sys.stdout
1/0
~ % python3 q.py 2>/dev/null
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "q.py", line 3, in <module>
    1/0
ZeroDivisionError: division by zero
~ % python3 --version
Python 3.5.2

This one seems to work fine

@ConorO'Brien That prints to stderr it seems

Conor O'Brien

oh, true

uppercase V works

El'endia Starman

>>> help
Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object.

Blue in IDLE.

Lynn

Well, that’s a REPL. 1 would be a valid solution in a REPL.

That’s just a fancy __repr__ (or is it __str__?) of the help object

Conor O'Brien

both, it seems

El'endia Starman

01:06

Yeah, doesn't output to STDOUT on TIO unless I put parentheses.

Alright Lynn, time for you to show your solution?

Lynn

I kinda wanna see if someone will come up with my solution…

I’ll narrow down the problem, which is both a hint and a lazy way to invalidate every attempt until now:

Write a Python 3 script, invoked without flags, that imports no modules, contains no parentheses, and prints something to stdout.

Conor O'Brien

darn

oh

this is easy

wait

El'endia Starman

I was guessing that it was an import-less solution, actually.

Conor O'Brien

python 3, nevermind

El'endia Starman

Couldn't think of anything though.

Downgoat

01:17

Super-awesome cheddar answer you should upvote (not by me):

1

A: I'm too cold, turn up the temperature

Cheddar v1.0.5, 61 bytes Unfortunately Cheddar has no built in sleep function, so I need to use cheese with the ping command, meaning I can't sleep in intervals under one second. I understand that the OP doesn't want anyone to increment above 2, but I think the solution is cool so I'm posting an...

Lynn

Eh, I mean, it doesn’t do what the OP asks

Downgoat

it doesn't?

Lynn

> The increment time must always be 500 millis per increment.

Conor O'Brien

tbh he could just change it to sleep 0.5

not a big problem

Lynn

It could though—yeah.

Downgoat

01:23

@Mego ... I don't break everything I touch, it's just always the sudo command that breaks

Lynn

This feels like a slippery slope: IO.exec("seq 40 2 72|pv -qlL2") is shorter, for example

Downgoat

btw does anyone with node want to help me test another cheddar thing? :3

Lynn

Anyway, I dunno if anyone is still thinking about the py3 riddle, but here’s my solution (spoiler!)

Downgoat

> PyImport_Import

python api is beautiful

Maltysen

@Lynn what riddle?

Conor O'Brien

01:33

@Lynn sneaky :D

Lynn

22 mins ago, by Lynn

Write a Python 3 script, invoked without flags, that imports no modules, contains no parentheses, and prints something to stdout.

4

Maltysen

hmmm

oh i got it

Downgoat

can someone explain what the arguments to __import__ are? Python docs say globals[, locals[, fromlist[, level]]] but that isn't very clear

Maltysen

wait nvm

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Lynn Very, very interesting.

@Downgoat importlib.import_module is the preferred function in Python 3+

Downgoat

01:38

oh

> Reference Count

Is Reference Counting Python's terminology for GC?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat there's a gc module, I think so

you can use a debugger to see what importlib does on itself

Lynn

Reference counting is Python’s terminology for reference counting, surely

Downgoat

What is reference counting then ._.

> In computer science, reference counting is a technique of storing the number of references

Lynn

Reference counting

In computer science, reference counting is a technique of storing the number of references, pointers, or handles to a resource such as an object, block of memory, disk space or other resource. It may also refer, more specifically, to a garbage collection algorithm that uses these reference counts to deallocate objects which are no longer referenced. == Use in garbage collection == As a collection algorithm, reference counting tracks, for each object, a count of the number of references to it held by other objects. If an object's reference count reaches zero, the object has become inaccessible,...

Downgoat

O_o then what is point of decrementing a reference

decrementing a reference seems to have the same effect as queuing it for GC?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

01:41

@Downgoat so when it's zero it's deleted

Maltysen

@Lynn oh i got it!

gimme a second to write it up

Lynn

Nice, what’s your solution?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat no, if there are a = FooObj(); b = a, ref count of fooobj is two, deleting either decrements the ref count, so you have to delete both to delete fooobj

Downgoat

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC oh DECREF does to zero?

huh

Maltysen

@Lynn wait nvm

I though decorators would worl

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

01:42

@Downgoat huh?

Maltysen

but you need parens to define a function

Lynn

*grins*

Downgoat

C++ Question: is there some macro/compile-time syntax for checking if a variable exists?

I know ifdef can check if a macro has been defined

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Wow, you can build pypy with cpython or build pypy with pypy...

El'endia Starman

@Lynn Ah jeez. Forgot about those.

I'll try to remember to pose this riddle to my coworkers when we get back from vacation. :D

Lynn

01:50

Sweet, let me know how that goes~

Downgoat

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC so python classes are basically like functions which return an object?

Lynn

@Downgoat Yeah. Cough, cough, @Maltysen.

quartata

@Downgoat I mean, internally, that's basically what C++ classes are too.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat and their type is type

they also have handles for __new__, __init__, @property, metaclasses, abc etc.

@El'endiaStarman please do so and come back with results :D

@Downgoat you can use PyPy's RPython and JIT to build a JIT'd Cheddar. They used it to build ruby with JIT, and php

Dennis

02:09

@Lynn Nice! The closest I got was this, but there's still no way to avoid the parens.

In other words, as far as your CMC goes, I didn't really achieve anything. :P

Maltysen

@Lynn arrghhh nice one!

the closest I got was:

class X:
 __neg__=print
-X()

El'endia Starman

The simplest solution I figured out with only two parentheses was [x for x in map(print, [1,2,3])].

Actually, help() also works, even on TIO.

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman I would have thought that would be print("hello") :P

El'endia Starman

@Maltysen Ah right, duh. :P

Still operating under the constraint that print not have any parentheses associated with it...

LegionMammal978

02:28

$ find B-files/ -maxdepth 1 -mtime -1 -type f|wc -l
68

It's Christmas Eve, what am I doing with my life

(68 OEIS b-files created since yesterday)

Conor O'Brien

TBH I thought tomorrow was Christmas Eve

LegionMammal978

@ConorO'Brien In some U.S. minor outlying islands such as Baker Island, it's about 2 in the afternoon on Dec 24 (UTC-12:00)

And it's 4:30 PM on Dec 25 in LINT (UTC+14:00)

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

@Lynn very, very hard. closest I got was:

a=1
a.__getitem__=print
a['hi']

will continue trying.

Maltysen

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ that's what I said about overloads not using the instance versions of the methods

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

yeah

It turns out scammers claim to be from Nigeria because only gullible people answer scams, and only gullible people are gullible enough to believe a scam from nigeria (the most common). (microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/…)

@Lynn I found a cheaty solution:

def a():
  try:
    a()
  except RuntimeError:
    a()
a()

Downgoat

02:51

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ btw can you tell me of a python library that exports a class?

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

it makes python segmentation fault, I doubt that's "allowed"

@Downgoat huh?

Downgoat

I need to test if classes work in my binding

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

@Downgoat from collections import defaultdict

it's builtin

Downgoat

ok thanks

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

Downgoat

02:57

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ I can also do import collections; collections.defaultdict right?

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

@Downgoat no, why would that be?

Downgoat

wait see updated

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

no

Maltysen

@Downgoat no?

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

defaultdict is not a module

Downgoat

02:58

oh

then what is it?

Maltysen

@Downgoat a class in the collections module

Downgoat

wait I did a stupid. See updated

Maltysen

yes

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

yes

Downgoat

ok thanks

Geobits

03:14

Got a Google Home for Christmas. Fun so far :D

Maltysen

@Geobits nice!

Geobits

It's quite a bit more capable than the OK Google on my phone. I'm liking it so far.

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

I probably should've seen that kick coming, given the fact that I removed the context to that joke

Dennis

I'm honestly not sure what part of that was supposed to be context. Or a joke, for that matter.

Downgoat

:( I missed joke now

        return Nan::ThrowTypeError("No exception found");

TIL I have to throw an error that there was no error found

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

03:29

@Lynn actually that solution does stderr ...

Dennis

2 hours ago, by Lynn

Anyway, I dunno if anyone is still thinking about the py3 riddle, but here’s my solution (spoiler!)

^ This solution?

Qwerp-Derp

Hello

Anonymous

I have a 2-hat lead :D

Anonymous

And I'm #7 in the network

Qwerp-Derp

Who's #1?

Wait what's the highest upvote-to-views ratio question on PPCG?

Also I want to post Pyramid on "Showcase your language" but it's locked :(

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

03:40

@Dennis no, mine

Dennis

@Qwerp-Derp Not sure if I'll have time today/tomorrow with it being Christmas and all, but I'll try to edit and unlock the showcase by Monday.

I rarely self-answer, but I need that Egoist hat. :P

Downgoat

Dec 19 at 2:24, by Dennis

The next person who abuses his privileges to get hats will get a suspension instead, until the day after Winter Bash.

answer privledge abuse eleven!11!!! :P

Anonymous

@Dennis Trying to catch up? :P

Dennis

Self-answering is neither a privilege nor abuse thereof, but I could use a vacation.

Try? Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Anonymous

So you're going with the second option :P

Dennis

03:46

23 hours ago, by Mego

@Dennis I'll let you guess :P

Qwerp-Derp

If it's unlocked, can I make another Clojure showcase? The old one is completely abandoned

Actually it's been abandoned for 3 months

Dennis

04:04

As part of reopening, the thread is going to be made Community Wiki, so you can (and should) edit the pre-existing Clojure answer instead of making a new one.

DJMcMayhem

I'll probably write a vim answer. Fun!

Qwerp-Derp

Screw it, I'm going to advertise my challenge.

8

Q: Maths Metagolf Mania!

Mathemania Specs: Every piece of Mathemania code starts off with the number 2. From the 2, you can do the following operations: e: Exponentiation. This command's default is squaring the number. f: Factorial. This command's default is using the single factorial on the number (using f on 2 = 2! ...

Are the specs in my challenge good enough? Or are there still some caveats?

I kinda like Mathemania, might make a full language spec out of it

Dennis

04:19

Great! I managed to get a splinter under my fingernail.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

congrats!

how in the world did you do that though o_O

Qwerp-Derp

@Dennis How did you get it in in the first place

Dennis

It wasn't easy, but I'm skillful like that.

Old wooden table, finger slid over edge.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ouch

El'endia Starman

*winces in sympathy*

Dennis

04:28

Nah, it's already out.

Quite frankly, it doesn't even compare to finding out another one of my favorite TV shows was canceled before it got a proper ending.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ouch

which one?

Dennis

Masters of Sex

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ok then

Dennis

Not as bad as the title makes it sound.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

okay?

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

04:46

> When political beliefs are challenged, a person’s brain becomes active in areas that govern personal identity and emotional responses to threats, USC researchers find

political beliefs -> existential crisis and threats

Qwerp-Derp

I kinda want to golf the first 100 integers of Mathemania by hand

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

> "Then I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house in." said the big bad wolf, only to perish as the blazing inferno of vacuum oblitterated him, the three little pigs, their houses, and everything else actually.

Sherlock9

05:03

@Dennis Another one? May I ask what the other ones were?

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

Merry Christmas. It's 12:05 AM here.

Maltysen

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ ayyy same time zone

Dennis

@Sherlock9 John Doe, Arrested Development, Futurama, Alcatraz, Alphas, Terra Nova...

noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

:)

heh, google changes it's bg if you search christmas or hanukkah

Sherlock9

Sigh, that's a very long list

DLosc

05:27

Question: when answering via anonymous function, is it okay to have other setup code outside the function? Contrived example in Python: x=42;lambda n:n+x

Of course I would count the bytes for x=42; as part of the answer.

xnor

yes

imports are a common use

DLosc

Okay, good. It made sense when I thought about it in Python terms (and I think I've actually done it before in tinylisp), but it looked odd in Pip.

Probably because 97% of Pip answers are full programs, not functions.

Still kinda weird... I'm writing an answer for Incremental quine, and to actually call the function, you have to put extra code in the middle of the "quine." But, them's the rules, I guess.

Well, okay, now I'm puzzled again. The task is "write a function that outputs [the characters] of its source code"... which technically doesn't include the setup code? Hrm. I'll just post my two-bytes-longer version that doesn't require any setup.

Destructible Watermelon

06:34

hi

betseg

"could not establish or maintain a connection with the server" is TIO backend borked?

Oops sorry forgot the TIO room

Qwerp-Derp

07:02

@Dennis Can you push Pyramid to TIO?

I might have to change it around a bit though

Qwerp-Derp

08:47

Hello?

zyabin101

Yes. Hello.

Qwerp-Derp

Finishing off the Pyramid interpreter

TuxCopter

10:09

Hey

Erik the Outgolfer

Hi

flawr

10:25

BREAKING NEWS: Christmas is cancelled, it was closed as a dupe from last year

17

TuxCopter

ono Q_Q

zyabin101

@flawr Not for me.

Luis Mendo

@flawr Hammered by Santa

zyabin101

Eastern Orthodox Christmas will happen to be a dupe from this year, January 7th.

flawr

@LuisMendo because santa is hammered

@LuisMendo Did you see this? :D

Luis Mendo

10:30

@flawr Hm no

Oh, now I see. I quickly saw something in CHATLAB

flawr

hm it was edited numerous times, thet tilte in chatlab was even better=)

Luis Mendo

The tree image :-)

flawr

3

TuxCopter

> Error in matlab, can you please run this?. [this is not duplicate] [this is wrong->] [duplicate]

This is the best question title I've seen since I am on SO

Luis Mendo

:-D

I've just upvoted just for the tree image

zyabin101

10:34

@LuisMendo The comment?

flawr

@TuxCopter I need to remember this the next time one of my questiosn get closed^^

TuxCopter

> Subscript indices must either be real positive integers or logicals. ERROR halp

20/20 title

flawr

avocad is missing

TuxCopter

right

Luis Mendo

@zyabin101 ?

zyabin101

10:39

The comment with the link to the tree.

Luis Mendo

The code actually produces the tree when run in Matlab

flawr

oeis.org/A265998

flawr

11:05

Honestly I don't get what's goign on here, but it looks beautiful!

New Main Posts

11:22

0

Q: Merry Golfmas, Everyone!

It's Christmas, everybody, and here's a code golf challenge to celebrate. You need to make a program to print out a present. Specifically, the words "Merry Christmas". BUT, there is a catch, this program must only work if it is the 21st of December, if the code is run on ant other day then the pr...

code-golf

betseg

Pretty sure it's a dupe but can't find it...

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Sprunge this! Your task is to create a program that creates a paste on sprunge.us. Your program must receive the text to sprunge from your language's usual input mechanism, such as standard in. This is a code golf, so shortest answer wins. Here is an example solution taken directly from the spr...

Winny

Any thoughts on my sandbox question

zyabin101

11:38

@Winny Input is clear (the sprunge content), but the output?

The URL of the newly created sprunge, the ID, or...?

Winny

@zyabin101 just the output from the webserver (which is the url)

i can clarify that

zyabin101

Okay.

In other aspects, it SeemsGood

Fun fact: The Community spirit participates in the Winter Bash. So far, it has 3 hats on PPCG.

Winny

I've updated the uestion @zya

@zyabin101

zyabin101

Abominable, ??? and Just Here for the Hat.

@Winny Thanks.

PhiNotPi

My hat overlaps with my chat textbox.

betseg

11:58

Lol

Sherlock9

I still only have 5 hats (Vader, Solstice, Trophy, Christmas, Hanukkah)

zyabin101

@PhiNotPi XD

New Main Posts

0

Q: Holiday Headache

I have a headache. I need headache pills. I'll tell you the last few doses I've had, and you tell me when I can have my next dose, without overdosing. I'll give you this string: P: 00:00, I: 02:00, P: 04:00, I: 06:00 And you'll give me this: Next Paracetamol: 08:00, Ibuprofen: 10:00 Input: S...

code-golf string date

zyabin101

@Sherlock9 I'm Your Father, ???, Just Here for the Hat, Buche de Noel, (don't know the last hat's name).

Sherlock9

"Where in the World" and "I Have A Little Dreidel"

PhiNotPi

12:10

my resistor network brute-forcer I wrote recently (just posted on Github): github.com/PhiNotPi/Resistors

zyabin101

The former is meant to be question marks, since it's secret.

PhiNotPi

I've considered adding more than just series and parallel connections, but I'm not sure if the added functionality will improve the results at all.

Kritixi Lithos

What will it be used for?

TuxCopter

Antichamber is borking my brain halp

PhiNotPi

Nothing really, it was an attempt to answer questions similar to this puzzling.SE question:

8

Q: Use a circuit to multiply two resistances

Given two resistors of unknown resistances and an infinite supply of wires and other resistors, create a circuit using multiple series and parallel combinations such that the effective resistance of the circuit is equal to the product of the two unknown resistances. Mathematically (for those who...

mathematics optimization physics

betseg

12:20

@TuxCopter the non-Euclidean space thing game right?

TuxCopter

Yep

PhiNotPi

But it turns out that even an approximation is impossible, since it is impossible to create a circuit in which doubling all resistors more than doubles the overall resistance (thus making x^2 impossible).

New Main Posts

0

Q: Sprunge this! Sprunge that!

Your task is to create a program that creates a paste on sprunge.us. Your program must receive the text to sprunge from your language's usual input mechanism, such as standard in. Your program will POST the text read from input to http://sprunge.us/ as multipart/form-data with the form field name...

code-golf

PhiNotPi

It's possible to approximate sqrt(X*Y) though

betseg

@Winny thought: 1 hour is too short

Winny

12:27

ah :(

how long should I let a proposed question sit in the sandbox @betseg?

zyabin101

@Winny quite some time.

Aug 11 at 17:33, by zyabin101

@VTCAKAVSMoACE We don't and we won't. The time to accept is whenever the heart feels.

Winny

should twelve hours suffice? @zyabin101

zyabin101

@Winny whatever the heart feels.

Winny

:)

I suppose I better make a splash than never post a question at all.

I had put a similar question in the sandbox half a year ago and got several negative responses (all for good reasons), mainly because it was too precise and constraining.

trichoplax

A few days to a week is a good length of time to wait to make sure several people have had a chance to give feedback on a sandbox post. If there isn't much feedback after that, I usually post a link to the sandbox post here in chat, to ask for last minute feedback before posting.

PhiNotPi

12:45

^ regarding the most recent "Golfmas" challenge

Adnan

@PhiNotPi I would say it's a dupe of the Is it Christmas? challenge.

flawr

@El'endiaStarman I think you'll like some the gifs in this collection: szimmetria-airtemmizs.tumblr.com

Lynn

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ stderr or not, I count like, eight parens

@Maltysen I was very convinced you (or someone else) would find the solution after you mentioned decorators :)

El'endia Starman

13:22

@flawr Wow, there's definitely a lot of amazing stuff in there.

I just finished scrolling through the entire collection... :P

Jarko Dubbeldam

ohboy

another secret hat

Too bad the bert hat doesn't really work with my profile pic

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