The Nineteenth Byte

Downgoat

00:00

@quartata uhhh no? Lemme find the quote

quartata

By purity I mean no side effects

Anyways if your complaint is about access modifiers you're gonna have to take down a lot of other OO languages with Python

Downgoat

No I'm not talking about access modifiers

quartata

No language is truly a pure OO language -- those that are suck.

ATaco

I'd say Java is pretty true OO.

quartata

Java isn't pure (just close) for instance and it definitely follows under the suck dichotomy for most

Downgoat

00:04

Python's classes are just about as much "classes" as C's "struct"s maybe even less. Where are fields? How come super is defined implicitly but not self

Why is self an argument???

quartata

So that you can call it statically? So that you can refer to it as a funcrion without scoping being annoying? etc

This isn't unique to Python either.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat abtract base classes, docstrings, static typing, class methods, multiple inheritance

quartata

Go yell at Perl if it bugs you.

Downgoat

99% of the time you do not know how to OO if you're using multiple inheritance imo

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat please look at github.com/ASCII-Art-Club/ASCII-Twin-Tin-Bots/blob/orders/…

quartata

00:07

giggles

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@ATaco still has primitives

quartata

Do you know what a mixin is

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat fields?

Downgoat

abstract classes are import... metaclass wat... just... sigh....

ATaco

I said close...

Downgoat

00:07

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC case in point

Conor O'Brien

@Downgoat do you know a fast way of getting permutations in javascript?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat ?

quartata

@Downgoat Or you can just throw an exception in the constructor??

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat It's so OO that you can implement ABCs through native code

quartata

C++ doesn't have abstract classes in the sense you're describing either

Downgoat

00:08

@quartata Yes, and multiple inheritance is not necessarily optimal solution

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

ABCs aren't used all that often

ATaco

Lua technically doesn't have primitives.

quartata

@Downgoat Multiple inheritance is how mixins work

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

You can even do static typing, with runtime type checking

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien I mean you could use generators, other than that I'm not sure how you could speed up really

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:09

Just like in Java, you have to override all abstract methods to make a non-abstract class

Downgoat

@quartata You should mixin w/ your base class

quartata

That's often not possible and/or not a good idea.

Conor O'Brien

@Downgoat rip

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

> Explicit is better than implicit - Zen of Python

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien If your algorithm requires looking through all perms, you should probably work speeding up algorithm :P

Conor O'Brien

00:10

@Downgoat it's just in general, trying to make it faster

Downgoat

@quartata This is why you design code and all, instead of going doing super-procedural code with a class and call it OO

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

even classes are objects! They just have the metaclass of type. Metaclasses are objects too. And they have metaclasses...

quartata

@Downgoat ...but Python doesn't do that?

Downgoat

What message are you responding too?

quartata

Hover over

I have to say a lot of your assumptions about Python seem to come from looking at small pieces of code.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:13

Python let's you natively 8 == 9!

Yay!

quartata

Pytek's internals for instance is super super OO

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Python has a standard library function for destroying the whole universe!**†

quartata

polymorphism all over the place

Downgoat

wait you're writing Pytek in python?

quartata

Cython. But yes of course.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:14

@quartata super agree

quartata

We have been for almost a year

Downgoat

@quartata idk, I've dug around cpython source code to add braces

Conor O'Brien

lol

quartata

But that's C

Very bad C I might add

Downgoat

no but lots of it is python too

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:16

@Downgoat cpython code is like using the C++ STL after a run through the preprocessor and the inliner as a style guide

It's optimized for super speed, tiny tweaks for tiny boosts

Downgoat

Wait, so are you disagreeing python is super-procedural?

trichoplax

Do you mean cpython or cython? I didn't think cpython was particularly optimised

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat Yes.

quartata

Actually the standard library code (the only Python in CPython) is fairly decent

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@trichoplax It is, very.

Downgoat

00:17

Python is like the definition of super-procedural language

That isn't even a bad thing....

quartata

@Downgoat No language is one paradigm

Downgoat

no one said that

trichoplax

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I had no idea. It's so much slower than PyPy though

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

check out mypy, it's static typing with type checks in python; and it's a python implemenetation

quartata

If I had to call Python one paradigm however I would call it OO since all the language primitives and standard library bits are object oriented usually with a few exceptions

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:19

@trichoplax that's b/c JIT, and PyPy is written in RPython, a subset where all types can be assumed

quartata

I'm not saying that's its strength

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat name one OO feature python doesn't have, except for final

quartata

I would also call JS OO by the same standard even though it sucks at it

Downgoat

This is not even opinion, it is objective fact python is procedural

trichoplax

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Ah I see. So cpython is optimised but without sacrificing any of pythons characteristics?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:20

@trichoplax Yes.

trichoplax

TIL

quartata

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I can name 5. Not the point.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat Give evidence. #DontBeTrump

Downgoat

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC fields? Overloading? Static abilities? Enumerations? Interfaces? Etc.

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC lmao your entire argument is based on whether or not my argument insults python

trichoplax

I think python has overloading

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

00:21

@Downgoat @staticmethod Overloading is used Enum yes; interface is just an abstract class

Fields?

Downgoat

Google "python paradigm"

quartata

@Downgoat The only one of those you named that Python does not have is overloading. But that is not the point

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

> multi-paradigm: object-oriented, imperative, functional, procedural, reflective

OO before procedural

@quartata Python has overloading

Downgoat

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC if you want to go to that extent then JS's functions make it OO

quartata

Even if you've worked with Python for five minutes you'd know that everything is an object

Same goes for JS

trichoplax

00:22

I've sure I've used overloading in Python. Unless there's some other type than operator overloading

Downgoat

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC yes and also functional

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

everything in python is an object. no primitives. types are objects.

quartata

There's no way to tag a language as one paradigm if it's practical

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat Which one is first?

> Multi-paradigm: scripting, object-oriented (prototype-based), imperative, functional, event-driven[1]

^ js

Downgoat

Seriously, claiming python is true OO is pointless

quartata

00:23

JS is not functional in any way

Downgoat

where did JS come into this

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Downgoat then why does wikipedia as it's first?

Conor O'Brien

@quartata sure it is, just not in the pedantic sense

Dennis

@Downgoat Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean. What is optional/implicit here?

Downgoat

...

quartata

00:23

Because both are similar in terms of their OO

Conor O'Brien

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I wouldn't trust wikipedia.

quartata

Everything in Python is an object. Everything. That's reason enough to call it OO

Conor O'Brien

pineapples are quite pleasant

quartata

@ConorO'Brien Ignore him i have no idea what he's doing

Downgoat

@quartata okay if Python is OO, JS is Functional?

Conor O'Brien

00:24

cool

quartata

@Downgoat No. The only sense of the word functional is the pedantic one which JS does not meet

Downgoat

Orly

quartata

OO simply implies that the language uses objects a lot really. It's vague on purpose

Downgoat

Super cool idea: babel plugin which adds functional ops to JS

quartata

@Downgoat Functional means functions with no side effects, period.

With some exceptions

Downgoat

00:26

@quartata like never?

quartata

?

Conor O'Brien

@quartata True functional programming, anyway. Functional is often used as a synonym for function-level

quartata

Function level is a whole different can of worms

But no. Almost all languages are value level

Conor O'Brien

I think I used the wrong term one sec

quartata

I can count function level languages on one hand

Downgoat

00:28

It really depends on how struct your interpretation of "side-effects" is

quartata

Not really.

There's a pretty obvious line.

Downgoat

to an extent, yes

quartata

Play with prolog for an hour and you'll see what I mean

you can't even return values only unify

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@El'endiaStarman aha! what if I don't have a c.se account? You can't 11 my profile name permentantly now!

Conor O'Brien

I tried prolog a while ago but then my head exploded

quartata

00:30

(Then again Prolog isn't functional but it fits for the example since it's declatative with no side effects)

Dennis

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ He could ask me in private.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

...well shit

quartata

@ConorO'Brien Prolog is a lot of fun and super powerful when you learn it

Conor O'Brien

@quartata actually I thought that functional programming avoided side effects not completely banned it

@quartata I'll have to look into it again

quartata

The only exception I know of in a functonal language is Scheme's set!

Not counting I/O although haskell handles that with monads

ATaco

00:32

I think the separation of Functional and OO is fairly pointless with the lack of any useful true OO langauge.

Downgoat

@quartata Side-effects appear to be a goal not, exactly a strict reauirment

Conor O'Brien

@quartata oh yeah did you know that J has classes?

Destructible Watermelon

hi

quartata

@Downgoat Defintely not a goal that JS tries to achieve, at any rate.

@ConorO'Brien I did not. Yikes

Conor O'Brien

OOP in J using a "creative" use of locales

ATaco

00:35

OOP in Lua is mostly just abusing functions and the fact that you can really abuse tables.

Downgoat

@quartata I mean it may not consiously attempt it but it definetly achieves it

Like every function in JS doesn't do side effects

except mayve object.assign

But those are exception

quartata

@Downgoat existence of window alone violates side effects

All objects are mutable too

Destructible Watermelon

there is a thing in my codes that could be solved with a global variable. I'm not sure what to do, because the immediate other option is to iterate through a list of lists, which could be really large, and have bad big-o complexity. What do?

quartata

Like I said work with haskell or erlang or prolog for a bit and you'll get a sense of what side effects are pretty fast. Tough to get from a Wikipedia article

Dennis

Global variable. They're only bad if you don't pay attention.

Destructible Watermelon

00:40

@Dennis thanks

specifically, it's a koth, and the game ends when the two teams artifacts are destroyed

and the global variable will hold the number of artifacts left

quartata

If your board is a class it could just be a field in it

No problem with that

Dennis

As long as decrements are atomic, that shouldn't be a problem.

Destructible Watermelon

@Dennis wat does mean?

quartata

One operation i.e no chance of interruption

Dennis

Do you use multi-threading? If not, don't worry about it.

Destructible Watermelon

00:42

kk

Downgoat

@quartata that is JavaScript not ECMAScript

quartata

@Downgoat What is the definition of var per ECMAScript then?

If it's global it's bad

Downgoat

@quartata define variable in currect scope

It's why clear(this) don't cause segfault

Wait that's not helping

quartata

So mutable global state

Downgoat

Yea kinda sorta

quartata

00:48

Yeah no -1

Downgoat

:(

Mitch Schwartz

it's frowned upon to have a name that's hard to ping because it's in another language or something?

Downgoat

Yes

Well unless your name actually is in that language

if you're doing it because you think it's cool, or something, no.

Destructible Watermelon

it makes it easier to ping if you have english letters at the start

Qwerp-Derp

Ello ello

Clojure is annoying in that it doesn't have classes :(

Destructible Watermelon

00:57

Worlds Smallest Violin

►

70

Q: Why does Clojure have 5 ways to define a class instead of just one?

Clojure has gen-class, reify, proxy and also deftype and defrecord to define new class-like datatypes. For a language that values syntactic simplicity and abhors unnecessary complexity, it seems like an aberration. Could someone explain why it is so? Could Common Lisp-style defclass have sufficed?

Qwerp-Derp

kk

Conor O'Brien

OMG WINTER BASH IS HERE :D

6

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien Hooray!!!!!!!!

Qwerp-Derp

Wait what is winter bash

Downgoat

winterbash2016.stackexchange.com

Do things, get hats.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

01:01

@ConorO'Brien yesyesyesyeyes

Destructible Watermelon

What is the best way to make a koth controller in python. Is it subprocess.Popen, or is there a way to import bots like java does?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

winter zsh

Downgoat

Winter ksh ftw

Can someone like just send me svg of hats so i can photoshop into avatar

El'endia Starman

*votes on Meta answers* GIMME MY HAT

6

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

refresh please

> post a message in chat within ±12 hours of the UTC New Year’s begin that gets starred

El'endia Starman

01:11

We're so having a star fest at that time.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

wait wat hats

quartata

Too lazy to Winterbash this year. I'll probably just get the one I like the best

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

lol

quartata

I can't really top last year anyways

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

hats aren't showing on my profile?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

01:19

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ you have to login to winterbash2016.stackexchange.com

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I did, it just took a loong time

Conor O'Brien

woot number one on the site rn

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@ConorO'Brien w/ 2 hats :P

Conor O'Brien

still

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

which ones?

vote by mobile and meta vote?

quartata

01:22

So did they do equip regions?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

CLOSE TEH SANDBOX; GIMME MA HAT

Conor O'Brien

don't do that

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@mods sandbox user should wear a hat

so should the other bots

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@quartata I dont' think so

quartata

boooooo

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC We'd have to get Phi to draw us some pixel art hats for the feed bots

(they can't actually wear hats since they don't have profiles)

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

01:26

@quartata sandbox can, at least

quartata

Community can wear hats though.

NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ

I heard the hat discussion was fierce in these parts

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

13

Q: Should PPCG have an official, objective, list of rules?

This is something that's been bothering me for a while, and is really impairing my use of the site. Any competition needs rules in order to be fair, and this has been established repeatedly in Meta posts (e.g. this post talks about the need for objective winning criteria). It needs to be complet...