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14:03
@Zalgo wait wat I thought no bots in tnb
ಠ_ಠ I'm not a bot
Bots are allowed in here. They're just not allowed to talk/chat in here.
If I am a bot, why am I wearing this hat?
> Chatbot of @TuxCrafting.
[at]quartata why
14:05
hey, I've got a question, pertaining to this. Do submissions need to have source code? Like, if there was some program "fib.exe", that input N, and output the Nth fibonacci number, is that a valid submission for a fibonacci challenge?
@Geobits ;_; y we no let wizzwizz talk
I want to say no, but its hard to define "source code"
@NathanMerrill clarify? I mean I would say it's fine. Machine code solutions count as not having source code if I understand you correctly
@NathanMerrill I think the general idea is that it's allowed if it comes with a "standard" install of whatever you're claiming as the language. Otherwise bash entries would have a hard time with just about anything.
So your shell or whatever would be the language, not "fib.exe".
bash/machine code have interpreters/compilers
meaning, that you have both "source code" and "input"
but if my language was fib.exe, I don't have source code
14:08
Exe's source code is its bytes and interpreter is CPU/OS
it literally does what I want in 0 bytes
Oh
i see
This is why we had requirements for programming lang
there is too much abuse possible
If there's no source code, it's probably not a programming language.
@NathanMerrill I don't think that would count as a language at all though.
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

jimmy23013The only differences that matter cops-and-robbers Cops' task Write two programs (or functions) A and B in the same version of the same programming language. They also should be called in the same way, meaning you can't write one program and one function. Each should accept an integer n and out...

14:09
right, that's what I'm getting at
i mean I'd love to allow those cool answers that abuse features, but along with those you'll get twice as much abusive stuff
Right but it's not not a language because of the lack of source code, but because it just isn't a language.
I think solution is to rather expand the scope of programming language
and if you read the comments between Peter and I, I come to that realization
i really really don't want a "text file, ____ bytes" on every kolorgorov complexity challenge
14:11
There's always PHP.
@Downgoat that's a terrible example, because there's still the "python string ___ bytes"
Python string is not programming language
Still, I agree that "Text" is not a valid programming language.
still python, was simply saying its a program that prints out a string
@feersum PHP needs <?php to be interpreted so not really
14:12
With format strings, Python string is a valid programming language :P
If you run that through php it'll bork
s/always/almost always/
print "hello world" or <?php hello world is no more interesting than just having hello world in a text file anyway.
regardless, I feel like the distinction here is that the submission language needs to have the ability to take source code
which is why fib.exe isn't allowed. It doesn't have source code, only inputs N
And because it can only do one thing?
14:14
no, not because of that
I'd say that's more of a disqualifier in general
It's the same reason HQ9+ isn't a language.
Even though it does take source.
there's a distinction between "programming language" and "submission"
Machine code is a programming language
I'm not talking about programming languages
I'm taking about valid submissions
@TuxCopter If you submitted it as language "machine code" and gave the program fib.exe as bytes, it would count.
14:15
let's say there's a kolmogorov challenge that wants you to print the 100,000th prime number
suddenly, I'd consider fib.exe to be a valid submission: the source code is 100000
@NathanMerrill I guess the crux is that you're arguing that non-programming language submissions should be allowed, where I don't necessarily agree. So when I speak of "submissions", I assume they're in programming languages.
@Geobits sure. I'm ok with submissions not being a "programming language", simply because the space for abuse is small
like, sure, there's an .exe for every possible problem, but they have to exist before the challenge
Why do we even have standards for what is considered a language if it doesn't matter though?
good point. Why have em?
14:18
Because we are a flawless non-contradictory community.
▼_▼
^ @Geobits right now
▼▾▼ FTFY
s/right now/always
Could be worse. I could be stuck in a goat body.
14:20
@Downgoat That s// is something I could live without too here in this chat.
@Geobits I would do giant cry face but can't on my phone so just pretend this message is that
@TuxCopter Starting to look like a pumpkin.
ಠ_ಠ Unicode don't have pumpkins
One of the big reasons we banned HQ9+ is because of Q, because it made too many quine challenges easy. But the funny thing is, is that on most quines, we now just say "you have to have encoded the output in your source code somewhere"
@TuxCopter are you sure? 🎃
14:22
@Yodle lulz
welp my GPU is dying
You can argue HQ9 just prints Q with Q char
@NathanMerrill Why stop at .exe then? Why not allow random webpages that happen to contain the output? Challenge: Display first 1000 primes. Answer: Here's my submission in language "https://primes.utm.edu/lists/small/1000.txt", 0 bytes
@TuxCopter graphical penguin unit? :P
nvm the driver was updating
14:24
@TuxCopter did you see this-> 🎃
It's named JACK O LANTERN ;_;
I was searching for PUMPKIN
i know a programming language like i know obscenity
/argument
0/10 for lowercase i
@NathanMerrill I thought we disallow HQ9+ because it can't do primality checking.
there's already rules for abuse in place: it has to exist before the challenge, you can't obtain the solution over the internet, and it has to be runnable on your machine. For that url, curl would be the language, and the url, the source code. (Outside o
@TimmyD I was talking about what promted the discussion for banning HQ9+
aka, why we even decided to create the minimum requirements in the first place
14:26
"Runnable on your machine" isn't a real rule AFAIK.
Ah, gotcha.
on "your" machine, yeah, but it has to be runnable on a machine
Anyway, you could just as easily have a locally saved copy of that page.
@NathanMerrill I didn't obtain the solution over the internet, I ran the language over the internet. Just like I would if I was using something on TIO.
So it definitely ran on some machine, and definitely existed prior to this conversation.
14:28
@Geobits I'm sorry, what is the "language". Like, what are you going to put in the header?
"https://primes.utm.edu/lists/small/1000.txt"
the url? The url isn't runnable
you need some other program to run it
Don't you need something to run an exe, or anything else?
It's really no different than the "fib.exe is a programming language" example.
hmmm, fair point.
14:29
Simple solution -- every answer from here forward must be made in PowerShell.
@feersum I don't want fib.exe to be a language
specifically because it has no capability of taking source code
Programming Puzzles & PowerShell Golf
which, I guess applies to the url
@NathanMerrill I don't either, but for a different reason.
Which you could argue is linked.
@TimmyD Hmm... You spelled Java wrong
14:30
@TimmyD PowerShell PowerShell & CowerShell GowerShell
> Programming Puzzles & PowerShell $Golf
lol
and see, this is why, on a "print this picture" challenge, submitting the picture as your source code is valid. if "picture.jpg" was your language, the jpg doesn't take source code. However, running a photo_viewer.exe, with the source code of "picture.jpg" is valid
Do you support Text answers also?
however, if the challenge was "take a filename, and display the photo", photo_viewer.exe is no longer valid.
because the path is the input, not the source code
and it cannot take source code
Meh. I don't like straight jpg/png/whatever answers anyway. They get my downvote every time.
14:34
I agree
@feersum sure, but the text would be the source code.
It's not hard to get your downvote
@TuxCopter It's really not, because there are just so many bad answers out there.
its boring, but its just as boring as any other print submisison
which is technically allowed
Yes, technically. I don't like them either.
right, but its unfair to ban a language when the abuse isn't limited to that language
14:36
But it's not programming, where you could argue that at least with print you're trying.
@NathanMerrill What "language" again?
@Geobits PowerShell.
regardless, on challenges that are boring, you're going to get boring answers, no matter what. The solution is downvotes. On interesting challenges, if you get an answer from a non-programming language, its much more interesting
so banning what we don't consider a "language" doesn't seem to be the solution. If the submission is boring, simply downvote
14:45
Damn, just killed another harddrive.
The Murderous Minx strikes again.
Whoa, Hello World has 571 answers.
Jun 6 at 17:00, by mınxomaτ
I have a useless superpower. As soon as I have more than one latop in my possession at one time, one of them dies.
Empirically proven again today.
Solution: Send me a laptop any time you take possession of another one.
I think we need to define possession: If you're a mailman, and you have two laptops in your van, does that count?
if so, I could think of lots of great ways to use your superpower
14:49
Hey, if I were to make an esoteric language that is the golfed version of Java, so that it compiles to Java in runtime, will that actually count as a new code-golfing language or not?
yes
look up Pyth
That's how Pyth started, but I think MATL is a better example.
All righty then, let's make Java verbose no longer!
we've already got a Java REPL
Or Jolf or Japt or one of those shortened JS golfing languages.
14:52
@Geobits As in, The Exorcist "taking possession" style?
@NathanMerrill What's that?
@KritixiLithos It would count, but don't be surprised if you get downvotes on answers, at least at first. A lot of people consider it boring and shady.
its technically a different language than Java
@TimmyD Hmm... well that would work too.
14:53
but you don't have to do "public static void main(String[] args)"
@Geobits Why? Java is a very powerful language, in my opinion. Making it into a code-golfing language would be even better
@NathanMerrill Is it a golfed version of Java?
no.
it just gets rid of the cruft
which, with Java 8, you can now just use lambdas for most everything
@KritixiLithos It depends on what you're doing. If it's essentially just shortening keywords or class/method names to single letters via replacement or such, then it's not changing anything about the language except for byte count, which is ultimately pointless.
14:55
This video made me think about a couple things. One is that The Stanley Parable is pretty much entirely predicated on the idea that the player really has no control; they only have the illusion of choice. The other is that it could be interesting to design a game where the only way to progress is to give up your control.
right, we downvote boring things (like a language that just does string replacement), but if it does more than string replacement, then it'll probably be fine
@El'endiaStarman are you going back an watching all of their videos?
@Geobits But if I change the language here and there and change the syntax, then that would be a better idea?
its up to the voter to decide :)
Better, sure. Depends on how well it works out.
@NathanMerrill I'm not really watching them in order or anything, but yeah, basically. :P
14:56
It could be a great or terrible idea :)
I've been making heavy use of the related videos feature. :P
If you end up with a language that is exactly Java with shorter syntax it's bad
I remember the day when I did that: I was stuck at an airport for like 8 hours
Right. Nobody wants to see it if all it does is change System.out.print("test"); to S.o.p("test) (or even just p("test") really)
Hmm, I haven't been on an EC binge in a while...
I'm astounded at how many people knew about Extra Credits before me. Like, at least six.
I'm not even sure how I found them
@NathanMerrill I don't hate them at all. I don't like the way they're used for golf.
why? It doesn't provide any advantage except removing all of the boring cruft
I mean, for Java, that's a huge byte advantage, but the interesting part of your code is still scored the same
Because they're different than in other languages. You can't use them in a class without specifying the types somewhere else anyway, so they're not self-contained the way a function is.
I can paste a function submission in a barebones class and it just works.
15:03
you can define the types in your lambda function
Right, but then you lose most of the savings that making it a lambda would gain.
And nobody does that
true
actually, I wonder what happens if you do Function<?, int> = (a) -> 4;
@El'endiaStarman I've been watching them for a long time. They used to be on Penny Arcade which is how I found out about them
Personally I've just never taken time to learn java lambda expressions. I use Java every day for my job, though, so I'm used to writing it. All of my Java answers simply specify Java7 for this reason
15:09
lambdas really are great in code
if you take a look at any of my KoTH code, it uses lots of lambdas
@feersum but how?
It feels like they'd be as great as anonymous classes albeit more terse
Personally I never got the big deal. Lambdas have always existed; it's called Runnable
@ETHproductions I'll probably want to see if I can make the seed shorter than the length of the PRNG's state vector before I do an explanation. — feersum 3 mins ago
I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice keystrokes for something that works on all versions
15:11
@quartata it's that you can reference a function so easily.
aka, I can call Math::min as my comparator function, or the like
@quartata I do like some of the stream stuff they've done with 8 though. It's too bad most of it is completely unsuitable for golf.
actually, this begs a question. There's a library I use for my lists (Eclipse collections)
if my lambda function accepts a MutableList (instead of a standard ArrayList), is that valid?
See, that's what I'd like to see in a "golfing java". A better way to handle lists, streams, etc, without all the wordy crap and imports that come along with it.
So no imports and stuff?
@NathanMerrill I'd rather see the type imported either way if it would normally have to be.
15:13
@feersum Did you ping Sp about the bounty yet?
I don't need to write "MutableList", but you suddenly get a huge amount of stream functions
@quartata see starboard
I need to do some tests.
If there is going to be a golfed version of Java, what are some things you guys would like to see in it?
specifically if Function<?, int> a = (b) -> 4; is valid
15:15
woops
because that would mean I wouldn't have to import MutableList
@KritixiLithos If it's a golfing language, "no imports" should be rule #1
I'd like to think you should be fine so long as it implements the List interface
@Geobits What what about the general syntax?
does that really matter? Both an array and a List are valid lists
even though they have no common interfaces
15:17
@KritixiLithos I'm not sure. I haven't given that much thought, tbh.
The main thing that bothers me about the Java 8 streams is that they don't work well with the existing collections and they're super slow
Hmm, I haven't noticed the slowness much I guess, but it is a pain dealing with regular collections.
@quartata both of those are solved using Eclipse collections.
Because my original plan was to shorten function names (and ofcourse remove public static void main) such as System.out.println() to P()
The one great thing about Java 8 is java.time I think we can all agree
15:19
@KritixiLithos neither of those are really used that much now. Even in Java 7, you can do int a() return 4;
static
@quartata What a wonderful typo. :P
You didn't wait two minutes :( :P
@quartata I'm quite happy about that
@Geobits I thought about doing that, but I wanted to mention it sooner rather than later. :P
15:21
I had already noticed but made the typo again while editing so something is on my mind clearly
Besides, it's still in the history. :P
@El'endiaStarman Willpower, man. It's what separates us from the beasts ;)
@NathanMerrill Then what about shortening int to i, or maybe even remove the function return type and shortening return to `r'?
@El'endiaStarman Dare I point out that yesterday you typed /kill as \kill? :P
you pyteker
HOW IS THIS REAL @GOOGLE https://t.co/wJAd8KAvbW
15:22
@quartata Wait really?
Google is shiba confirmed
C'mon, those colours are really nice
Especially the "Really Blue"
@KritixiLithos Default return variable, maybe o for output, so you don't have to return at all.
@Geobits I don't get you
15:25
Just make every function return whatever value is in variable o when it reaches the end. Allow for returning early also, but don't require it.
If there is no o, it's void, if o is an int, it returns an int, etc.
you can do more than that
@El'endiaStarman obviously it's taken a toll on your psyche
Kinda like VB uses the function name as an implicit return
Oh... so o should be declared for a function to have a return type?
15:27
@NathanMerrill Probably, this is just off the top of the head :)
@quartata Nonsense. Pytek is the best thing ever.
would return an int 4
(Incidentally, I almost typo'd "best thing" as "besthing".)
@NathanMerrill If you introduce implicit typing, yeah. That is a lot more work.
suggesting to return whatever is in the variable is likely going to make the language interpreted
15:29
Not if the variable is still declared in the function as a certain type. Then it's just a compile-time check.
int o;for(;whatever;o++); returns an int
right, but what does a.someFunc() return?
you basically need to write your own compiler
I'm attempting to write some code to determine dates based off the US federal reserve holiday calendar - found here federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/k8.htm - Why on 2019 is MLK Jrs birthday denoted as the 21st instead of just the 15th? I'm trying to do this programatically
@NathanMerrill ruby does that
iirc
@El'endiaStarman While I haven't been typing forward slashes as backslashes I have been typing parentheses instead of curly braces in LaTeX
I think that if I start developing this, then it will encounter the same sad fate as my other esolang, Carrot. Too much work in real life led me to stop improving Carrot and wasted the idea of a possibly good code-golfing language
15:30
so I guess I've been damaged too
@NathanMerrill My thought was that during transpilation you give proper headers to each function by checking o or whatever, then compiling as usual.
@quartata Hah. I haven't typed LaTeX recently, so I don't know if I would've done that too.
Oh and ~> instead of ->
@confusedandamused Lots of US holidays are (observed) on whatever Monday follows the actual date.
@Geobits but existing Java functions?
15:32
Somebody should create this Java-golfed language
January 15 2019 is a tuesday though - right?
We aren't even ashamed about abusing random dates for three day weekends
@confusedandamused Right, so six days later is the next Monday, the 21st
it's denoted on that page that if it falls on a sunday it's the following monday, but not if it falls on random day of the week
Oh, well they're lying then :) They're talking about the "fixed-day" holidays, not the floating-Monday ones.
15:33
And in the years 2017 and 2018 it falls on a sunday and a monday - and both move to that monday
So in this instance - if the holiday falls on any day but monday - it is observed the following monday - right?
Like Christmas is always the 25th, so it will only be moved if it's on a Sunday (which isn't even moving the holiday, just the day banks will be closed on). But not all holidays are like that, and are just always observed on Monday.
I've never heard of the notion of "floating monday holidays"
3 mins ago, by quartata
We aren't even ashamed about abusing random dates for three day weekends
So if the day of the week is sunday it is observed +1 day otherwise if it's any day of that week it's observed the following monday
15:37
Again, it depends on the holiday. If it's a "monday" holiday, just always find the next monday. If it's a particular date, only move the day up if it's a sunday.
Yeah I'm just speaking MLK jr
Oh, then just always look for the first monday >= 15th. No need to special-case sundays or anything.
@Dennis if you have a sec, could you briefly explain what I'm doing here that makes this only work as a full program, as I'm slightly confused by it: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/97846/53748
@TuxCopter Get a Pixel. Charges 7 hours in 15 minutes
Better yet, go with the suggested action.
15:43
Thanks @TuxCopter for the inspiration for my latest challenge.
1 hour ago, by TimmyD
@TuxCopter Starting to look like a pumpkin.
It got the ol' brain-juices flowing.
eat puke
eat poop sniff puke
15:46
I should use it
It reminds me of BF
That's pretty terrible. Now if they did like apps and gave away the keyboard free with ads, that's another story :D
The iPhone 7 by itself is a disaster
And the new MacBooks, they're always removing extra ports...
16:01
5
Q: Ghosts and Pumpkins

TimmyDHere's an ASCII pumpkin carved into a Jack-o-Lantern. Isn't it cute? ((^v^)) Here's an ASCII ghost. Look how spooky it is! \{O.O}/ Obviously, the pumpkins have to be on the ground, with a space between them so they don't rot. Ghosts, however, like to stand on top of pumpkins, so they're ev...

8
Q: Pythagorean Triple Sequence

mbomb007 A Pythagorean triple consists of three positive integers a, b, and c, such that a2 + b2 = c2. Such a triple is commonly written (a, b, c), and a well-known example is (3, 4, 5). If (a, b, c) is a Pythagorean triple, then so is (ka, kb, kc) for any positive integer k. A primitive Pythagorean tr...

@NewMainPosts stop spamming!
Ehh, what's with the flags
its not spam.
2 posts at once
16:03
Wait, you actually flagged that?
I am a risk-taker
so? spam is not related to the amount of messages, but the usefulness of those messages
oh no
Too late... I can't unflag
@KritixiLithos No, actually you are just bothering mods and 10k users for no reason.
16:04
@mınxomaτ I'd call that a risk :p
Better run before the mods come
the flag is already resolved
it has been for a while
Yeah, don't flag messages so spuriously.
fancy words
He's just using it because it's Mego's newest language.
16:09
did someone flag a feedbot
Yeah -_-
yes
I see.
@Geobits Actually though?
that was sort of on purpoise
@Zacharee1 Would I lie?
16:10
or should I say porpoise?
@Geobits I don't know. I've been here for 3 days
I guess you'll have to figure it out sooner or later then :)
ominous music
I'm guessing Mego's next language will not be an adverb
Maybe a preposition?
@quartata luckily, adjectives, nouns, verbs, prepositions and everything else work nicely in puns too
@Zacharee1 \me *points at Geobits constantly saying when PPCG would get its SE design*
16:12
true
@quartata Of? To?
did you escape those stars?
*test*
oh cool
@El'endiaStarman I'm fairly sure you can't prove any of those are lies yet.
(And yes, quartata, I did \me on purpose. :P)
@El'endiaStarman You got me in the middle of typing "ok you must have done that on purpose"
16:14
Ah-hahaha. :P
@Geobits Well you lied about graduation so let's just say you have a track record
Huh? We're graduated.
I can't help it if the date I was told got delayed a bit.
Ah yes I see how this works.
If it was off by a year and a half obviously that was just a typo
Not a typo, just incorrect. I was just as shocked as anyone, but there's a difference between being wrong and lying.
My inside source failed me that time.
Neat, GH orgas can now have pinned repos.
16:18
@mınxomaτ I read this as GH orgies
I saw orcas at first >_>
An orgy of orcas?
Seaworld After Hours Edition
... and, I'm gonna stop there.
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

OliverHow many boxes do I need? Given N items to store with sizes C0 ... CN-1, and an infinite number of boxes with size B, print the smallest number of boxes you need to use. If it is not possible, print that. Test cases N = 5 C = [1, 5, 1, 5, 3] B = 5 Result = 3 N = 3 C = [5, 1, 9] B = 7 Result =...

16:20
@quartata Pinning would be a bad thing in an orgy, I think.
16:33
@quartata Have you ever nouned a verby word?
16:48
Any CMC?
(not that answer in particular, the challenge)
Saw it. Couldn't code. Sad.
Why?
Dunno. Couldn't.
...what
16:53
@betseg Given two (lat, long) points output the min nautical miles between.
"miles" triggered
2
Carrot.
Use whatever unit of length you want then
CMC -- Given an input number 1 < n < 26, output a concatenated alphabet with each letter repeated (its 1-based alphabetical position)%n times. Example: n=3 --> abbdeeghhjkkmnnpqqsttvwwyzz
16:57
Why is it, in 2016 - the year of mixed UEFI bitness, Debian is the only linux distro that supports that...
n=7 --> ABBCCCDDDDEEEEEFFFFFFHIIJJJKKKKLLLLLMMMMMMOPPQQQRRRRSSSSSTTTTTTVWWXXXYYYYZZZZZ
@HelkaHomba Hmm. I had a function to do this with meters... now where did I put that app's code... >_>
@mınxomaτ Is it also the year of the linux desktop? :P

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