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5:00 PM
@NathanMerrill yeah, totally would.
 
Oh, I think I found one.
 
Great, it's not just SE chat. It's all web apps.
 
It's a full Ubuntu system embedded in Windows.
 
but it works on the windows filesystem?
 
@Dennis Chrome (not Chromium) 51 here, no problems
 
5:01 PM
@NathanMerrill yeah
 
awesome
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ What is this "heavy vs pyro"? Is it like a new WAR update?
 
hopefully they release it soon
 
@quartata yeah, but it absolutely sucks
 
Full access to your windows stuff from bash
 
5:01 PM
also this update literally screwed up everything
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I joined team heavy
 
I'm joining team pyro
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ teamfortress.tv/34686/to-hud-developers-subject-meet-your-match regarding the hud problems
 
@ArtOfCode how do they deal with packages. Aka, does apt-get work?
 
5:02 PM
@NathanMerrill apparently yes
 
@quartata It bothers me more than it probably should that you got the first and last of four things. The original full quote is "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them. One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."
 
my least favorite parts are (1) debuffs to the righteous bison and (2) the abandonment concept; sorted by increasing annoyance
 
@El'endiaStarman this was done deliberately
 
0
Q: Code golf a "Logical expression Calculator"

Matthew RohWell, This may seem awkward, We have a logic tag, but not a single "logical expression calculator". Instructions Simple.Golf a program that Reads(or input) the logical expression, calculates it, and output the results. There are these logical functions. NOT(a) AND(a,b) OR(a,b) XOR(a,b) You...

 
5:03 PM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ My least favorite parts are (1) matchmaking
I despise every aspect of it
 
I haven't even touched it yet
 
I imagine it reserves C:\ubuntu or something as the virtual root of the Ubuntu system, then installs stuff under that as it would do in a normal Ubuntu install.
 
It's shit
 
@TùxCräftîñg sup
 
Play an esea pug or a lobby if you want competitive
These are no better than pubs
except now no one is going to play pubs since we have "casual matchmaking" on the forefront and "community servers" in a tiny corner
 
5:04 PM
Matchmaking seems like a pretty difficult problem in general.
 
why did valve think it was a good idea to f*** everything up
 
@El'endiaStarman It's not helped by the fact that they imposed no class restrictions
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Because it's what they did for CSGO and it worked!
But TF2 has a much more complicated competitive scene
 
ye
CSGO !============================= TF2
 
plus third party matchmaking has existed in the tf2 universe for years
 
andd I still have no freaking connection to TF2
 
5:05 PM
tbh this is all the fault of the idiots complaining "tf2 is dying, we need matchmaking!!!111" We really didn't.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I think this is the opposite of what you want to say.
 
At least, not like this
 
is there a challenge for reading nbt data yet
 
aka, it implies that CSGO ============================ TF2 could be true
 
@Sherlock9 I can't imagine that there wouldn't be any applications of Lisp in high-performance situations. I can, however, imagine that there are so few Lisp programmers in relation to C/C++ programmers that it'd be hard to find those applications. Unless you google stuff like "Lisp game" or "high performance Lisp", etc.
 
5:08 PM
Shit, team pyro is winning
 
@El'endiaStarman I think that largely depends on how much attention the Lisp compiler has received in terms of efficiency
 
I blame the w+m2 off class pyros
 
I absolutely hate it. If I want to play on a CTF server, I can't just do that. I can only exclude up to 3 game modes. WAIIIIII
 
@NathanMerrill I was thinking that too. A lot of work has gone into making superb C compilers.
 
the field of "high-efficiency" code is a shrinking field
 
5:09 PM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Do Valve servers even exist anymore?
 
@quartata why wouldn't they?
 
Because they would be replaced with private dedicated servers for casual MM?
 
oh
hopefully they fix their shit soon
 
There isn't even a button on the main menu to create a listen server
I just looked and there are no Valve servers aside from the maintenance ones.
 
however, given the growth of functional programming, I'm quite excited for the day where the average programmer understands functional concepts
 
5:11 PM
^
who plays attack and defense, anyhow?? :P
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ cp_steel is very common in HL
@NathanMerrill I think it's already happened to some extent
Most mainstream languages have it and things like map are pretty natural
 
highlander
 
at least in my small sample size of my current workplace, there's only 1 other programmer (that I know of), that understands/uses things like map
that said, there's only 15 or so of us
it obviously depends on culture, hiring practices, but I still don't think that the average programmer uses them. They'd still fall back on for loops and such
 
@MartinEnder compressed regex :o
You should implement that in Retina
 
5:14 PM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I just tried to connect to a Valve server with the password "lemme in you've ruined tf2." Hopefully someone is reading the server logs
 
._. a python preprocessor would be very cool
 
@quartata ahahah
 
I haven't played TF2 so I guess it's too late now?
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Competitive matchmaking costs $10 0_0
 
I'm not a fan of preprocessors
 
5:15 PM
That's literally more than 3 months of esea
 
@quartata wtaf
@anOKsquirrel yeah. please wait until everything is fixed
 
@NathanMerrill shortening the ugly lambda syntax can be cool
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Oh, I doubt they're fixing anything
 
@zyabin101 Type the text in a text editor with the correct color and font, justify it to the right width, take a screenshot, paste into your image editor. — mbomb007 9 mins ago
 
5:16 PM
@quartata they eventually will fix some of the shit, right?
 
Why would I pay 10 dollars for terrible matchmaking
 
Screw it, I'll rewrite the TIO advert in Scribus.
 
@TùxCräftîñg yeah, but the real problem is the lambda syntax, not preprocessors
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I highly doubt it. They've committed themselves at this point what with the beta and all
 
@quartata well, I mean the abandonment concept
 
5:17 PM
@NathanMerrill #define λ lambda
 
that's even worse
 
@TùxCräftîñg Chat does pings per edit.
 
woops ._.
 
I mean, it'd be great if every keyboard had a lambda character
 
5:18 PM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Apparently you can't use custom configs in MM at all
So I can't even play it. It would remove my graphics config and my fps would tank
 
just change the keyboard layout to greek
 
you really want to force developers to do that to program in python?
 
@quartata hopefully they fix that
 
or to copy/paste characters?
 
5:19 PM
@Dennis You can pull Grime now.
 
and python lambdas are broken and can't be fixed
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ On the bright side this is a massive motivator to finish my game so I can have a new dumb multiplayer game to play around in
 
@quartata true. I will play that game.
 
@TùxCräftîñg expound?
 
omfg it takes so long to join a game
 
5:20 PM
I'm not even bothering
 
the only reason I waited is because you can click on the badge and it makes fun sound
 
My FPS wouldn't just tank without a graphics config. There's actually one convar I can't play without
 
@NathanMerrill lambdas can have only one statement and the syntax is very verbose
 
great. I got ctf, but got sawmill. and if I leave, I can't play again for 10 minutes.
 
And this is casual?
 
Whoa. CSGO casual doesn't give punishments for abandoning casual matches
What were these people smoking
 
well, my bro told me about abandonment. I still have to find out if he was telling the turth
and my FOV is permanently stuck at 75
O_O wtf it's cp_sawmill and I excluded capture points
 
@TùxCräftîñg I actually like the one-statement requirement. I agree that its too verbose
 
a think like JS lambdas (one expression but allow code blocks) can be cool
 
@Zgarb Done.
 
5:25 PM
the problem IMO with allowing code blocks is that I think they should be made a named function. That said, we're getting into the territory of whether you can give the programmer too much power
 
they also changed the administrators voice
 
which is where @El'endiaStarman and I disagree the most I think :)
 
I don't see anything on reddit. I think people actually like this update. What
 
sometimes creating code-blocks lambda can be useful
 
Oh nevermind wrong subreddit. That was /r/truetf2
 
5:28 PM
@TùxCräftîñg oh absolutely. I just think that its a sign that you should make a function.
 
@quartata It was (sorta) my own fault. I updated chromium, but not chromium-ffmpegsumo. The required version should be a dependency...
 
@Dennis Huh, that's weird. I thought it was a dependency
 
Well, it's a tad tricky. You can use chromium-ffmpeg or chromium-ffmpegsumo, so the latter isn't really. (Don't ask me what the difference is.)
OK, the difference seems to be that sumo doesn't include non-proprietary codes, which is bad since H.264 is proprietary.
 
@VTCAKAVSMoACE awesome, thanks
 
@NathanMerrill For me, it's not so straightforward as "moar power!" It's more like, a potential feature should never be rejected on the basis of "Why would anyone need/use that?" or similar complaints.
 
5:39 PM
yeah, the question of "why would somebody need/use that" is definitely huge for me. Its a matter of balancing usability and potential bugginess
 
the solution is to use a language where the only type of function is lambdas
 
hmmm, I should make some sort of questionnaire that helps me decide whether a feature should be added
 
Thing is, a thousand expert programmers will always be more creative than one expert programmer.
You can't possibly foresee every possible use of some feature.
 
@El'endiaStarman absolutely. However, by limiting features you increase readability and understandability to the average programmer
 
5:43 PM
@NathanMerrill Hmm. Designing for the average programmer sounds like it would result in an average language.
Which might be just what you want, depending on your goals for the language.
 
well, I don't shy away from forcing people into a certain way of doing things, even if that way is different than the norm
however, I'm not a fan of allowing any way of doing things
because while the experts will understand the code no matter how it works, you can train an average programmer into the 1 new way
 
@Dennis Can you please pull 05AB1E?
 
anyway it's a chatroom about code-golf, where nobody know the meaning of readeability
 
@El'endiaStarman I agree with Nathan to a certain extent, I think it is sort of like tags on SE sites. We should reject tags that we don't think will be useful to other people, just like I think you should reject features that seem to mostly serve to complicate a language, rather than make it more expressive. Otherwise, add it to an appropriate library, instead.
 
@NathanMerrill Hmm. I'm not exactly doing that in Pytek, though. While I'm not strictly adhering to the Zen of Python with regards to having exactly one way to do X, I do think it's a good heuristic.
 
5:48 PM
the "one way to do X" is a tradeoff. If there is only 1 way, then you have people saying "I wish I could do Y". If there are lots of ways, then you have people saying "what does Y do"?
 
@FryAmTheEggman Sure, which is why I've been aiming to find simple-ish but powerful ideas. In particular, I think the _ feature could be unexpectedly useful, depending on how I implement it. I'm not so sure about $, but I'll try it anyway.
 
Yeah I have no idea what you are actually adding :P I meant more in the general case.
 
I don't think you can blindly stick to either end, but the scale can certainly be seen (such as when you compare python and perl)
 
do any clever people know how to find the most upvoted question with no answer?
 
^ It's the tetris question :P
 
5:51 PM
@NathanMerrill Yeah. It's worth noting that Python actually has two ways to sort a list: sorted(L) and L.sort(). One is, however, in place and the other makes a copy.
 
I think unanswered sorts by votes by default: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions?sort=unanswered
 
oh!
why did it never get an answer??
 
its so difficult
 
pah :)
 
5:51 PM
There's been a chat of people working on it for months :P
 
JoeZ have posted 2 unanswered question without answers ._.
 
I feel like adding a bounty now :)
@FryAmTheEggman oh!
 
creating a tetris game in GOL is near impossible
like programming in ShwaPL
 
oh mine is number 4 :)
I feel so proud
 
the second question though, isn't actually that tough
 
5:52 PM
Longest common substring
 
as long as you don't care about speed
 

 The Quest for Tetris

For discussing this: goo.gl/kuCiRF | VarLife: goo.gl/StrPLC |...
 
http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/30900473#30900473
THX CAPTAIN OBVIOUS
.__.
 
surprising it has no answers
oh I see. there are unanswered comments
 
yeah, we don't worry too much about unanswered questions, because our answering ratio is quite high
maybe the best on the network?
 
5:55 PM
I am sure that is right
 
nm, puzzling has a better ratio
 
@NathanMerrill 98%, not the best, but excellent
 
I just worry about mine :)
 
@LeakyNun can't tell if you're serious, but that's definitely not gonna happen ;)
 
@NathanMerrill really?
 
5:56 PM
36 unanswered, 6,512 total questions on puzzling
 
The Workplace have a 100% ratio .__________________.
 
instead of 109/5,711 for us
workplace: 9/11,356
 
SO in chinese have a better ration than the official one .__.
 
pretty sure every version of SO is better than the official
 
the russian one have a 87% ratio ._.
 
5:58 PM
SO gets a lot of fluff
SO: 3,307,249/12,020,008
 
what is the site with the smallest ratio ?
 
so, closest to 0?
 
the smallest ratio of the network
 
beer: 15/546
 
@NathanMerrill Holy moly. Really?!
 
6:01 PM
97% of ratio
 
I think SO has the worst ratio
 
@NathanMerrill Wait, it says 97% answered here.
 
ask different have a 67% ratio
cross validated: 60%
 
@El'endiaStarman right. 15 unanswered, 546 answered
 
@NathanMerrill Oh, I thought you were responding to Tux's question of smallest ratio.
 
6:04 PM
software recomandation: 56% l0l
 
I.e., 15 questions answered out of 546.
 
oh lol
that would be pretty terrible
ok, another design question: Do you guys think that a compiler should be predictable?
 
Elaborate?
 
@NathanMerrill predictable ?
 
@NathanMerrill predictable as in time?
 
6:06 PM
aka, the C++ compiler frequently is unpredictable with what it generates (you have to know a lot about how it works to understand why it does what it does)
but it trades that for speed
 
you speak of undefined behaviors ?
 
no, for example, the compiler can rearrange statements if it thinks that it'll make it faster
obviously, it won't rearrange stuff if it would make the output different
 
unless you're transpiling to another high-level language (like Java) then sure. but the generated code doesn't really matter if you're transpiling to for example machine code imo, as long as it's reasonably fast
 
@Adnan Done.
 
@TùxCräftîñg I think it's more like there are tons of possible behaviors, and it'd be hard to guess which one it'll pick.
 
6:08 PM
i never have seen the C++ compiler reorder my statements
 
I have seen a compiler do factoring. :P (In the sense of x + x*y -> x * (y + 1).)
 
@TùxCräftîñg it does it when compiling. If you look at the assembly, it won't always be in the same order
another example, is when you do stuff that the compiler could just calculate, it'll precalculate values
int a = 0;
int b = a+1;
 
these things only happen when the O flag is set
 
if you look at the generated code, b will just be assigned 1
 
@TùxCräftîñg If you're compiling for production use/software release, you would definitely want the compiler to optimize. :P
 
6:10 PM
@TùxCräftîñg I thought it was something you had to turn off,
hmmm...I'm clearly out of the loop :)
 
@El'endiaStarman ._.
 
@Dennis Thanks :)
 
@MartinEnder why not?
 
Because its golfitude isn't so important to me that I would compromise the fact that Retina programs can be written by hand.
 
@MartinEnder I didn't realize you were still using pen and paper to write your answers :)
 
6:16 PM
^ You'd be surprised how often I have to write hexagony programs on paper to make any sense of them... :P
 
@NathanMerrill well, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I figured most people operate their keyboard with their hands.
4
 
ah, I must be an exception then. You should really try tongue typing sometime. The decreased distance between the screen and my eyes makes for faster response times
 
writing with his head is simplvtghjl, m
 
@NathanMerrill they also make for faster eyesight deterioration
 
For greatest efficiency in turning thoughts to text, bang head on keyboard.
...oh dear, I hope I'm not responsible for the death of everyone who read my last message.
 
6:25 PM
@El'endiaStarman too late Im ghost goat now ;_;
 
.__________________________________________________________________________________.
 
You stop that
 
@El'endiaStarman too bad the funniest response to that was to not respond
 
@NathanMerrill Arg! :P
 
6:27 PM
Ghoatst
 
@Downgoat if you are a ghoast, how do you type on the keyboard ._.
 
@Downgoat me haz ben lokin 4 u in chedda room
 
@TùxCräftîñg He managed with hooves. I'm sure he could do it with ghost hooves.
 
@LegionMammal978 oh, joining...
 
@Downgoat ghost > goat imo
 
6:30 PM
@HelkaHomba damn, that would have saved 5 bytes and beaten osabie ;)
 
@HelkaHomba ;_;
 
@HelkaHomba actually... osabie currently uses two linefeeds to separate the input from the source. is that allowed? (because that would help me as well)
 
err
 
@El'endiaStarman Thanks for the response. I should look into that
@NathanMerrill And there is the line in the Zen of Python about "there should be only one way to do thing, though that way may not be obvious unless you're Dutch"
 
@Sherlock9 lol. I personally think that the "obvious" word shouldn't even be in the mantra.
-.-
 
6:36 PM
@MartinEnder That seems ok. Introducing new characters just seems odd.
 
that was impeccable timing
 
@HelkaHomba wheeeeee :D
 
@NathanMerrill Fair enough
 
and actually, if you are introducing something new, it should use syntax that is definitely not obvious
 
Picking the obvious choice is a fairly good heuristic though. See: the several times Conor (and other people) asked "How do I do X in Python?" and the answer was almost exactly X.
 
6:39 PM
@El'endiaStarman yeah, following standards is crucial. I was more or less saying that if you have feature A that is similar to B in a different language, you shouldn't use the syntax of A
depending on where the differences lie
 
@NathanMerrill Hmm. Do you have an example in mind?
 
I was going to use <> for my dependent type system, so that I could do String<4> to indicate a string of length 4. However, I've abandonded that for String@length=4
besides being less powerful, it gets confusing when you try to compare it to other language's type systems
 
Ah-huh, I see.
 
@Downgoat could you come to the zyabinVI room after talking with LegionMammal978 in the Cheddar room?
 
@zʏᴀʙiɴ101 okay
 
6:43 PM
Random thought I just had: is there a certain angle and speed of flowing water that would result in a wave standing still if it's moving against the flow of water?
 
@El'endiaStarman yes, seen a cool youtube video about that
@MartinEnder You have the most messages in TNB for wh[e]+ with more than 5 'e's
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Linky dink?
 
@El'endiaStarman well there are stationary hydraulic jumps, if those count as waves for you
 
@MartinEnder I don't think I know what those are.
Oooh, message ID of the message I just replied to is 30902090.
 
6:45 PM
@El'endiaStarman open the tap. around the spot where the water hits the sink the water will be very shallow and streaming away, but then a few centimetres on it will suddenly get deeper (and that boundary should be roughly stationary). that's a hydraulic jump.
 
@MartinEnder Ohhhh, that!
 
It's too bad that this challenge still doesn't have an answer: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/75239/…
 
If a 'no improvement whatsoever' edit gets approved, rollback or not?
 
depends on the edit
link?
I'd say not in most cases.
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan almost done with portal 2!
 
that's a fine edit IMO
 
i know, just a bit pointless IMO
 
whatever
I say keep it.
 
I do edits like that for mathjax and grammar an Math.SE
 
which is why i asked
not much point reverting it
 
6:53 PM
@BusinessCat your card didn't make it to the set I develop, but made it to a special set for guest cards.
Want your card in my set? It has to follow an additional rule: the mana cost is 1W.
Apply in the Sandbox.
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ \o/
 
:D
on the last 2 levels
 
^ How do you know? It's been a while since I played but I don't remember them saying chapter x of y or anything. Unless you internetted or w/e
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Are you in the nice, white testing chambers?
 

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