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14:01
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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin BüttnerRecognise the Multifactorial code-golfmatharithmeticnumber-theorynumber (Suggestions welcome!) We all know the factorial n! = n(n-1)(n-2)...2*1. Many of you will also have heard of the double factorial n!! which is not (n!)! but n(n-2)(n-4)... instead. Likewise, we can define other multifactori...

thanks for inspiring that ;)
@user2179021 so what about my suggestion regarding hardcoding?
@MartinBüttner :)
@MartinBüttner I am thinking about your suggestion.. It first requires me to actually make lots of examples and put them somewhere
pastebin?
I like to avoid that if possible
I feel questions on *.SE should be complete on *.SE as far as possibkle
that is not rely on other web sites that might go down
also aren't pastebin's deleted after some time?
14:17
I don't think so, but you can put them on a github gist instead.
Still, I think test cases are a valid exception to that.
Good questions have large sets of test cases, so I don't think there's anything wrong with hosting them externally.
of course it would nicer to give code that make the test cases but I know peopel complain about any code
saying something like "I knwo I have been coding for 20 years and love to answer cryptic and complicated coding questions on the web in 10^45 different weird and wonderful languages.. But HOW AM I EXPECTED TO INSTALL PYTHON??!!"
:-D
(Don't take that too seriously :) )
having to install a language to participate in a challenge is annoying
you know, you could always do both
sure :)
the main problem with only providing a generating script is that you still need a single list to test all answers on in the end
the code can make that list can't it?
14:21
I just realized that one of the chatrooms from "Hard Code Golf: Create a Chatroom" is still active.
hi @PhiNotPi
did you decide your eigenidea wouldn't work in the end?
0
A: Standard loopholes: what counts as hard coding?

Martin BüttnerI agree that the challenge's scoring wasn't very good, but including one of the test cases in the code is definitely hardcoding in my opinion. But we've discussed this in the comments. Let's just agree that you abused a bad part of the spec, which certainly a loophole, standard or not. Anyway, I...

zero upvotes :)
I never actually attempted to use the idea. I think it's still worth a shot, eventually.
@PhiNotPi ok.. cool
14:24
I just posted it
@PhiNotPi the internet hasn't come up with any great ideas
@MartinBüttner oh! Sorry
@PhiNotPi the internet isn't as clever as people make out :)
@user2179021 the code should make that list. but unless you provide one individual output, the benchmark set will vary every time you run it. (or provide the PRNG seed that is used for the set that scores the entries in the end.)
@MartinBüttner my idea was to give code with a random number generator and then at the time of testing give the seed
this is to prevent hardcoding
this may be what you just said :)
and then every future answer has the seed, and every past answer didn't :/
I'm saying you should provide the set that's used for scoring right away
you should only use the script to generate other test cases if you suspect an answer of hardcoding
ok thanks
you run a dictatorial system here
where the OP is the king :)
it occurs to me that I could just never provide the seed but people like to score themselves, right?
or queen
14:28
that's the problem with undisclosed test sets
see the post I linked to earlier
right but people don't seem to express strong opinions that it is bad do they?
hm, not really, but you need to provide some test set. providing only code will put people off.
so why not provide the actual test set right away instead of a fake one?
ok thanks
if you have any suggestions for interesting test cases, do please add them of course!
I suppose you should just write some code that generates a random syntax tree recursively (to some depth, which you should probably disclose), and then fill it with random numbers (up to some maximum, which you should probably disclose). plus maybe some sanity check that the numbers don't go through the roof.
well that would be nice :)
14:35
alternatively, just generate random sequences of numbers
that's much easier
of course, then you don't have a reference formula for each
but maybe that's not necessary
@NewSandboxedPosts if you really want the focus to be on the grouping rather than factoring, I think you might want to grant people a single-character factorisation function for free. Otherwise J would get even more undue benefit than usual, I think
er
true but I would like to know there are small answers
@FireFly why single-character?
and for random sequences we are guaranteed there aren't on avergae
@MartinBüttner as in, its name would be a single character. Because golf :P
Makes things even-er, so that only the grouping matters for the golf and not the factorisation
14:37
@FireFly yeah, but why not just allow factorisation as it is?
Not that many languages have built-in factorisation functions in their standard library, I think
@FireFly do any open source ones?
still, it would require people to implement a reasonably fast factorisation so I can actually test that they complete for 2^64 in a reasonably amount of time
@user2179021 J does, and its implementation is GPL'd
14:40
CJam
Perl probably does, but I don't know
things with J in them :)
perl.. I doubt it but there will be some module
of course bash does :)
well GNU coreutils
Yeah, factor isn't a shell built-in :p
@FireFly I'm afraid, in the end it'll be shorter to just iterate over all factorials until you hit the right product
Hm, probably
it's a triple loop... the outer of the factorial order, the next over the offset, and the inner one just adds numbers until you exceed the target
this might be more boring that I thought
the only way around that I can see is to provide the prime factorisation instead of the number, and to make the numbers bigger than 2^64, disallowing use of numbers that large in the code
14:59
hm, of course that would require that no prime factor is larger than 2^64... hmmm...
@MartinBüttner I added 10 sequences to the question
hopefully that is enough to make it interesting
:/ ... with handcrafted sequences the scoring is very arbitrary
especially if you're not testing on the same sequences as the one you provided
@MartinBüttner I am testing on the same ones
@MartinBüttner I could make some more up if you really wanted :)
then how does that fix your initial concern of hardcoding?
I just asked them not to!
15:10
lol
but I know what you are goign to say.. make more examples
ok ...
what's wrong with generating them?
I want a mix of easy and hard
I don't know how to do that my generationg them
that's easy to generate too
15:11
just use a variable syntax tree depth
you may be the perfect person
if I had the time :P
in fact, if you pick the operators randomly, you'll get varying depth automatically, because some operators are binary and some are unary
so you can really just build the tree completely randomly by choosing one of the primitives at random, maybe ignoring binary operators after depth 4 or so.
when you get to a number, pick a random number in some range (possibly skewed to lower numbers)
I see what you mean
I will see what I have time for.. thanks
good code-challenges take some effort ;) ... and I think your question would greatly benefit from a large number of test cases
I can write you a generator script in Mathematica over the weekend, which you can then port to Python if you want
15:26
thanks
I am adding more test cases as we speak as well
@MartinBüttner ok going back to your idea. I have added some more examples
how many do you think I should actually test on?
15:48
I'd say at least on the order of 100 and not on then order if 10
possibly 1000
ok
I am tired jsut thinking about it :)
I'll write you something on friday or saturday
@user2179021 btw, is / integer division?
16:10
You would want a very large number of test cases.
I finally figured out why I keep getting emails with a random J inserted in odd places.
Apparently, I don't have Wingdings installed.
So people are trying to send me a smiley, and instead I just see a "J"
Meanwhile, Microsoft decided it would be a brilliant idea to convert :) to a smiley in Wingdings
Just delete Wingdings.
And comic sans.
16:28
@PhiNotPi No the problem is that I don't have Wingdings.
☺
"In this first problem, there is a car driving along a cliff, and the car just jumps off. This person has decided to end it all. Now, we want to know at what time the car hits the ground. This is the beauty of physics, because if this were a psychology class we'd want to know why the person was jumping, but we are simply concerned with how long it takes." ~ Dr. Shankar, Physics I lecture at Yale
@MartinBüttner I don't think it needs to be integer division.. does it?
@user2179021 no, but would make the generating code easier. because if it's not integer divison, I'll have to throw away a lot of candidates including division because they won't result in integer results.
hmm
I didn't intend it to be integer division I have to admit
well that's fine, it'll just mean that the code will probably generate fewer sequences with division.
but this leaves a problem
are results allowed which produce the correct numbers of the given sequence start but might generate non-integer rationals further down the sequence?
I have a problem with codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/41648/18487. Even if I don't hard code the answer, I could have it start searching at a point very close to an large fragile prime. What's stopping me from doing that?
16:38
@MartinBüttner I suppose so! Do you think I shouldn't allow that?
@user2179021 no I think you should
ok good :)
@Rainbolt that's often a problem with these
post a comment
Calvin's question worked ok, and it doesn't seem to have much else in it.
I was going to post something like that too, but then I remembered his question
Well it's possible that nobody spoke up and nobody abused it.
16:42
@FryAmTheEggman he had several of these
7
Q: Find the craftiest prime

Calvin's HobbiesIntro Consider the process of taking some positive integer n in some base b and replacing each digit with its representation in the base of the digit to the right. If the digit to the right is a 0, use base b. If the digit to the right is a 1, use unary with 0's as tally marks. If there is no ...

Oh, I know what to do.
Force submissions to take a seed as input and start their search from there.
Well I guess that won't work if you don't employ a seedable algorithm
@Rainbolt I don't think that makes sense for all search algorithms.
maybe someone finds a way to generate these instead of searching primes that have the property
Someone voted to close because it doesn't have an objective winning criterion lol
"The score is the fragile prime number found by your program. In the event of a tie, the earlier submission wins."
Comments on that challenge are popular
I am going to participate in this one if it stays open.
17:00
sounds like something we could have a productive meta discussion about
Shall I volunteer to start a "Tips for writing a good optimization challenge" topic on meta?
@Rainbolt yes!
I also would like a "tips for writing a non-syntax based golfing challenge" )
i.e. one where having shorter variable and function names doesn't help you
@user2179021 it's called
ok.. hmm
Ok so seriously, someone help me find all of the already asked performance related meta questions that sounds like "Do I need to specify the hardware it will be run on?"
17:13
2
A: comparing fastest code

Briguy37I'd go with option F. Here are the rules for option F: Requirements: Askers MUST provide one or more explicit input test cases to be optimized. For example, if the input to the program is x, the question could be specified to optimize for inputs x=5, x=50, and x=500. Each code must compute ...

Has some stuff on it
17:28
I don't understand why Peter's comment is getting so many upticks. He pointed out something that I already said in the answer.
"If the author of the challenge is unable to completely describe the testing environment"
because people don't read well?
Nobody has suggested an alternative to my proposal, so as far as I can tell, it's the only proposal.
I don't even think it's a very good one. The challenge author shouldn't bear the burden of testing everyone's stuff IMO
was the earlier conversation suggesting that puzzling.SE is not doing so well?
They're having an identity crisis at the moment it seems.
17:30
They apparently don't want hats. So obviously they are struggling.
oh..what is the crisis?
identity
but in what way?
what are we?
@Rainbolt I upticked his comment because it gave an example for how to set up a fair environment, not for his other point :P
17:31
Identity crisis:
1 0 0
0 1 0
0 0 2
ok so your answers are really helpful. I feel I fully understand the situation now :)
They have a meta. Go check it out :P
Leave it to Geobits to explain things without sarcasm.
A lot has been said, and it would be easier to read it than rewrite it all.
Oran@geo bits.
17:33
just a link would be great
I don't the signs of a crisis in the meta
2
Q: Keep up the good work - Amazing stats! [UPDATE - NOW ALL 5 EXCELLENT SCORES ON AREA51]

MewThe current site statistics can be found here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/45128/puzzling [UPDATE: PREVIOUSLY WE HAD 4/5 EXCELLENT STATS ON AREA 51 - NOW WE HAVE 5/5 EXCELLENT STATS, WE HAVE ACHIEVED A PEREFCT SCORE CARD. WHATEVER IT IS WE ARE DOING HERE WE MUST KEEP ON DOING - ...

but I thought the problem was simply that the questions are no good?
No, the problem is that some users don't see it that way (and some do). They're just trying to figure out what makes a "good" question due to the recent flood of riddles and the like.
17:35
ok
I have a lot of math problems that are basically puzzles
but I suppose I am not confident there are the math people on puzzling.SE
so I wonder what sort of questions they would like
it's very hard to get it right on *.SE
cstheory.SE is not very good
mathoverflow is awesome if you are an elite mathematicians
math.SE is awesome if you ask particular sorts of questions
tex.SE is the best website on the internet :)
@user2179021 I'm pretty sure there are
@user2179021 WAT?
scifi.SE is amazing
@MartinBüttner what was WAT in reply to?
Seasoned Advice cooks fish in dishwashers... how is that terrible?
@user2179021 hoverrrrr ;) (cooking.SE)
proof that cooking.SE is anything but terrible: cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/4708/…
17:40
yes well :)
I think I meant that in a more boring way
it's not a good place to get high quality advice on cooking :)
well... ;)
It's better than Parenting, surely?
anyway, if you've got a puzzle, ask in their chat if they think it's cool to post it.
ok
I could carry on reviewing the website ;)
I mean the *.SE websites
cs.SE also doesn't really work
basically, a .SE website works if the sort of people who are interested in that sort of topic a) are the sort of people who like to look things up on the internet and b) are the sort of people who don't mind openly sharing their ideas
cstheory doesn't work as people are scared about saying anything new which they could otherwise have published
cooking.SE doesn't work as cooks have other places to find cooking advice
etc.
Professional cooks maybe, but people who cook at home use the internet (or at least I do).
17:50
@Geobits I don't think very good amateur cooks spend much time web forums basically
they have their own body of knowledge and advice
maybe they will in the future of course
Are you saying I'm not very good? No tamales for you.
whereas scifi people couldn't be happier :)
@Geobits I wasn't exactly :) I was talking about averages :)9
you could be the exception in any category you choose :)
Speaking of which, I need to figure out the best way to make a pumpkin cheesecake this year. I've done it layered in the past (pumpkin on bottom, cheesecake on top), but I'd like to see if I could swirl them together a bit before baking to mix them in. I'm not sure if it will end up baking right, though, and don't want to "waste" one to find out.
ask on cooking.SE :)
@Rainbolt have you tried anything for the prime question yet? I ran some basic stuff and in a minute got 946669.
17:55
@FryAmTheEggman I can generate an 800 bit prime in a few seconds. I haven't even begun to try checking fragility.
Yeah I think part of the trick for this one is to cache primes
I'm almost positive that any number I generate that is that large will be non-fragile
Haha, that's a neat idea :P
In fact, I bet someone could prove that after a certain point, no more fragile primes exist.
Go crazy with primes then just check from top down until you find a fragile one
17:57
Oh wait I think I confused myself
@FryAmTheEggman Ok I'm getting started now. I guess you figured out that your prime can't contain 1, 2, 3, 5, or 7 at all
That leaves 4, 6, 8, and 9
Well
Only if it is at start/end
Oh and zero
in the middle it can work
Because you only remove one continuous lump
Which I think I am doing wrong, actually :P
Yeah I was using all subsets by accident, I think that 950K number may actually be the max for that set XD
18:02
So 1,2,3,5, or 7 could be somewhere in the middle?
Yeah, like 454
well
Ok, so rule number 1: a fragile prime MUST end in 9
because it can't end in 4, 6, or 8 (it would be even) and it can't end in 1, 2, 3, 5, or 7 (because it wouldn't be fragile)
Seems correct. Apparently I need to stop saying 'yeah' and 'well' or chat will penalize me ;_;
Off to lunch
Oh, it can also end in 1 (as 1 isn't prime)
19:04
Ok, got to 69983369 just using that. Gonna try limiting the first digit to 1,4,6,8,9.
19:27
@Rainbolt why 1?
It can end in one, but it never seems to start with 1
I think 19 and 11 being prime contributes to that
I just realised, Suboptimus Prime's name is very fitting for the question :P
@FireFly I didn't realize that 1 wasn't prime. It's been a while lol.
@FryAmTheEggman Revised rule 1: A fragile prime must end with 1 or 9. Is that sound?
Yeah I think so
Oh okay, so I wasn't missing something obvious
19:41
I posted a pretty junky answer that just used the start/end number restrictions, and started counting at 9.
20:00
@FryAmTheEggman Here's another stupid rule. If it ends with a 9, it cannot begin with a 9.
Uh, I don't see why?
My program found 99993799, which seems ok to me, but I could, of course, be wrong.
@FryAmTheEggman Whoops ignore me. I meant to say that if it ends with a 9, it can't begin with a 1
Too late to fix it
I get called away to do code reviews randomly
Because 19 is prime, it wouldn't be fragile
20:17
That makes more sense :P
If it ends with 9, exactly what numbers can it begin with?
4,6,9
I think
Oh, when it ends with 1 I think it can only start with 8
181 is prime, and it seems fragile
but 11 isnt :P
aj
ah*
31 is prime
So is 311
20:22
but 3 isnt ;P
fml
61?
I checked that, prime
so was 41 and 91
Ok
So I have three rules written down now:
1. A fragile prime must end with 1 or 9.
2. If it ends with 9, it must begin with 4, 6, or 9.
3. If it ends with 1, it must begin with 8.
I'm no closer to understanding an algorithm for generating them. I can only generate primes and then check them after the fact.
But those three rules speed up the check by a few orders of magnitude.
Yeah for sure
I'm going to start a new one now :)
I just forwarded this challenge to my former Mathematics professor who taught "Applications of Mathematics in Programming" in Python. He's a younger guy (with a PhD) who also happens to play Magic, so I'm sure he'll get a kick out of this.
I told him that the one thing I missed in his class was coming up with a new algorithm. We only studied problems that had been beaten to death.
20:32
Yeah, that's my favourite part of PPCG :)
Of course, there's a good reason for that. Most of the unsolved problems are totally useless, or just twisted combinations of problems that have been solved.
hi
I am enjoying trying out puzzling.SE
(Or have stumped people for 100+ years)
I don't understand how our IT guy hasn't strangled himself yet. How do you manage the technology that 15+ developers are working on?
@Rainbolt what is the link for the challenge you forwarded?
20:33
8
Q: Find the largest fragile prime

Suboptimus PrimeConsider the function Remove(n, startIndex, count) that removes count digits from the number n starting from the digit at position startIndex. Examples: Remove(1234, 1, 1) = 234 Remove(123456, 2, 3) = 156 Remove(1507, 1, 2) = 07 = 7 Remove(1234, 1, 4) = 0 We will call the prime number X fragil...

Oh geez.
The last comment on that question is a play on Transformers
And I think I know where Suboptimus Prime got his name
:)
the weird thing about puzzling.SE is that people post comments as answers
Ok. After reading that I suddenly don't want to play anymore. Why is everyone so much smarter than I am?
@Rainbolt because they are not
@Rainbolt the best answers on the internet are given by a tiny fraction of people
don't panic :)
everyone on puzzling.SE seems to be less smart than everyone on ppcg :)
it's a very weird culture. Apparently just guessing is enough to post an answer :)
20:41
After I read warkingspy's take on how to improve the culture of Puzzling, and saw how many upvotes it had, I was really thrown.
You don't improve culture by complaining on meta. You improve the culture by editing the material you already have so that it sets a good example.
If I see fifty questions doing FOO, then I can also do FOO.
I tend to agree
but in the end you need a small number of geniuses and a large number of competent people to want to answer questions
Board and Card Games also has this problem. They allow poor questions because they are old.
and I am not sure they have that
interesting!
PPCG tends to take out garbage very quickly, regardless of age.
And as a result, I don't see very many questions that would set a poor example for newbies.
@user2179021 Yea, I guess Puzzling doesn't have "old" questions.
"Older" would have been a better word
Hrm, I can't seem to come anywhere near getting the next fragile prime.
20:47
I can generate a really large prime, but that's about it: 94413200410160892074902035153977098422525664822509162370778170287535046342118935‌​31288337046081449069
8 digit number leads to 6 extra substrings over 7... seems to tank and barely even compute 20 million more...
@Rainbolt I think your comments are worth making. Could you add them to the meta?
Oh, my algorithm was bad and I should feel bad.
@Rainbolt I think they don't have any experience and so would benefit from someone who has seen another .SE work
@user2179021 I'm not the guy you want shaping up your meta. My opinions are incredibly unpopular here most of the time lol.
2
20:51
@Rainbolt well those opinions you just expressed seemed good to me :)
and I am the guy who doesn't like code golf questions :)
talking on codegolf.SE :)
I am now trying to find the right meta question
21:10
There we go, cracked 100 mil :)
21:22
Can we keep him (@user2179021)?
what do you mean?
Was speaking to nobody, asking if we could keep you at PPCG.
Like those kids that see a stray animal and say "Mommy can we keep him?"
With those pleading eyes
About the fragile primes question, if it interests anyone the established terminology for a string with a substring removed from it seems to be 'outfix'
When searching around a bit I found cs.yonsei.ac.kr/~emmous/papers/ictac05.pdf which is about outfix-free codes (akin to prefix-free codes, i.e. no string in the language is an outfix of another string in the language)
Thanks, I'll check that out
21:25
It's not entirely related, but it could be interesting nonetheless
I think it would be related, if we could directly make a language describing fragile primes
Which sounds hard :P
The set of fragile primes is necessarily an outfix-free language, though
Right >_<
 
1 hour later…
22:49
@FryAmTheEggman You just got blown out of the water lol
Yeah I was working on something like what he had written, because I noticed that many 9s wouldn't really affect the fragility
I'll need to come up with something else now :P
At my school, the AP Economics class is doing a stock market competition. There is a website that allows people to trade fake money and stocks using the actual market data.
Here's the thing: I'm not in AP Econ.
So I created an account, found the group, and then guessed the password to be a part of it.
I think every highschool AP Acon class does that.
I know mine did, and I know my cousins from a couple of states over were doing it at the same time.
I just think it's interesting that I just "joined" their competition even though I'm not in the class.
If you don't kick their ass then you'll just seem like a creeper.
The last time someone made a stock market challenge on PPCG, I broke it. My algorithm was extremely complex: Buy. Sell. Repeat.
At first I thought that someone else would mess up my system, until I realized that I was the system after like three turns.
Should I attempt to make a more stable stock market challenge?
23:00
There's a "realistic stock market" in the sandbox that I was thinking about making.
You are free to pick up the proposal.
Oh really? I might have a look-see tomorrow. I won't take it from someone else that's active, but I might have some things to say.
I think it would be fun to hook in to a real feed and pit programs against it.
I haven't really touched the proposal since I made it.
23:57
The SE app don't have chat
Really?
I dl'ed the app mostly for chat
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