The Nineteenth Byte

user55340

02:20

.. And reddit: reddit.com/r/programming/comments/271eac/make_2_2_5

luser droog

03:01

"it's the devil's way now." :)

m.buettner

11:36

it's probably due to a fair bit of selective perception, but over the past two weeks PPCG seems to have gone somewhat downhill in terms of challenge quality... I swear a month or two ago there were a lot more really interesting code-golf and code-challenge... ummm... challenges. There's also currently no active KotH, but that's understandable with the effort it takes to design and host one.

undergroundmonorail

12:15

@m.buettner I've got a KotH up my sleeve that I just need to write up spec for. Should I go for it?

m.buettner

Well it's not just writing the spec, is it? It's writing and testing the controller as well.

But sure, go for it. I'm working on two KotHs myself, but progress is slow.

undergroundmonorail

I've done that. I've just been too lazy to do spec.

github.com/undergroundmonorail/Mafia-Engine

Okay, writing spec now. B)

m.buettner

haha, that's amazing... I actually thought about making a KotH for that game a few weeks ago and then forgot about it again.

I'm really looking forward to it!

that would have been a neat idea to realise the communicating-bots KotH I had in mind... I guess I'll wait for what exactly you came up with now ;)

undergroundmonorail

12:34

The way I handle communication is kind of lame... there's a number of predefined messages that you can shout out loud. I decided to not implement whispers, the original party game doesn't have them and it would have been a fair amount of extra work.

Trimsty

ooohhhhhh

m.buettner

you could introduce a form secret communication between mafioso during the night and add some form of random "rustling" sound. like, there is a 1% chance that anyone makes a sound at night (and someone hears it), but there is a 5% chance that you're heard if communicating with another mafioso.

that would model mafiosi communicating with gestures in the party game.

and others just twitching because they can't sit still :D

sounds are what I'm usually going by during the first 1 or 2 rounds of the game.

undergroundmonorail

My drama teacher hosted the only fair games of mafia I've ever played IRL, where every night everyone in the room was required to drum on the floor. That masked the sounds pretty well.

Trimsty

perhaps it should be less probablistic and more environment-based? it'd be more work but more fair

xD

m.buettner

huh, interesting I never played it like that... I think the night being silent adds a really interesting component (and tension)

Trimsty

12:40

Hi @KyleKanos :3

m.buettner

@Trimsty environment based? o.O how would that work?

Kyle Kanos

@Trimsty Hello

Trimsty

@m.buettner as in, some decisions lead to being caught and some don't, deterministic, based on the entire line of decisions the player has made

not that i'd know, i've never actually played this, or read the rules

m.buettner

@Trimsty oh okay, yeah that doesn't really make sense in the context of the game, I think

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner "Analysis" and "whatever the opposite of that is" are valid ways to play mafia. I thought about it for a couple seconds and that seems right.

I've always preferred analyzing what someone said and how they acted in game terms to, for example, watching their face to see if they have any tells.

But there's nothing wrong with that.

I think playing with bots is going to be heavily leaning towards analysis anyway.

m.buettner

12:43

@undergroundmonorail yes that's how most of game usually plays out, but in the first round before anyone says anything you don't have anything to go by... except people "twitching in their sleep" ;)

sure, your game, your rules. it was just a thought.

Trimsty

unrelated, /r/Python doesn't like cjc :c

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty Yeah, fuck the Canadian Judicial Council.

By which I mean, what?

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail github.com/cjfaure/cjc

maybe it's bad etiquette to ask for input on unfinished software?

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty I think /r/python is more about news regarding the language than programs written in it. Try /r/learnpython?

Trimsty

well i've been programming in python for well over 3 years

:I

xD

besides, reddit.com/r/Python/comments/273kge/… got 5 upvotes (?!)

undergroundmonorail

12:48

Yeah, but it's the only subreddit I could think of that would be willing to be an extra pair of eyes, you know?

And it's not like you ever really stop learning :P

Trimsty

yeah

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty Odd. Not the kind of thing I'd expect to get upvoted there.

Trimsty

also upvoted: why python 2 sucks, how to obfuscate code horribly, i wrote a little asyncio chatbot please love me

undergroundmonorail

I'm so sad that my favourite language is dying.

I love python, I just can't get behind print as a function.

Trimsty

heh, I'm okay with it, syntactically it's backwards-compatible with python 2

undergroundmonorail

12:51

That, and map returning a map object (???) instead of a list? Is that how that works? I don't know, I just know that one time I tried to see if something I had golfed would be shorter in 3 and it wasn't because I couldn't get a list from map.

Trimsty

range returns a range object as well; it's so that the computation of the list doesn't have to happen immediately

undergroundmonorail

Yeah, I like range being its own thing. Other than when I'm golfing, I use xrange just about everywhere anyway.

Trimsty

i guess that's why there's Nimrod or Genie?

undergroundmonorail

The best Green Day album and the best Aladdin character.

By which I mean, what?

Trimsty

Genie (programming language)

Genie is a modern, general-purpose high-level programming language in active development since 2008. It was designed as an alternative, simpler and cleaner dialect for the Vala compiler, while preserving the same functionality of the Vala language. Genie uses the same compiler and libraries as Vala; the two can indeed be used alongside each other. The differences are only syntactical. Genie's syntax is derived from numerous modern languages like Python, Boo, D and Delphi. In the vein of Python, Genie uses indentation rather than curly brackets to delimit blocks. Like Vala, Genie uses t...

nimrod-lang.org

genie is basically when python, d and vala collide

undergroundmonorail

12:55

I don't see anything wrong with Genie immediately, but nimrod is statically typed yuck :P

Trimsty

nimrod is sort-of more systems oriented, kinda like erlang but bcply

m.buettner

What?

By which I mean, what?

Trimsty

xD

I dunno, Nimrod feels more "i'm building a radio in the 70s"-y

doesn't know many adjectives

m.buettner

what do you mean by "bcply"?

Trimsty

like bcpl

undergroundmonorail

12:57

(I feel pretty bad about saying something kind of rude in the heat of the moment, then getting it starred twice.)

m.buettner

ah, I tried looking up BCP

undergroundmonorail

(@Rusher I like you I promise)

Trimsty

it's weird how i like forth, fortran and bcpl but not ruby or c++

undergroundmonorail

Hey, so I wrote a challenge in the sandbox the other day and after a while decided that it wouldn't actually be fun. What's my next step? Delete? Leave to rot?

m.buettner

which one was that?

undergroundmonorail

12:59

Nonograms

m.buettner

you sure? it sounded fine to me.

Trimsty

I'd say edit the post to reflect your thinking and let people do with it as they wish, but yeah, I'm still quite new here l:

undergroundmonorail

I think that's what they're called, I called them Picross until I looked up the actual name :P

m.buettner

if you're sure you don't want to post it though, you may as well delete it I suppose

undergroundmonorail

Well now that you've said it seems fine I'm having second thoughts

Trimsty

13:00

@Rusher hey :D

m.buettner

actually Trimsty has a good point

undergroundmonorail

Hi @Rusher

Rusher

I know you guys missed me!

Trimsty

i locked myself off the internet for 4 days, i missed everyone ;_;

m.buettner

add a sentence at the top "I'm not sure this is a good idea any more, feel free to convince me otherwise."

@Rusher always... who am I going to practice my debating skills with ;)

undergroundmonorail

13:01

If someone else said it was fine it's probably fine. Even if it's not there's nothing wrong with posting a challenge that no one ends up doing.

Yeah, at some point I'll add a paragraph about formatting and post it. I've convinced myself :P

m.buettner

:D

undergroundmonorail

Wow, I'm an idiot. I was trying to figure out the best way to get to meta without using the keyboard and a while ago I decided it was

Trimsty

btw, for the mmo koth, i wondered whether to write a sort of "logic map" interpreter and let people write in that instead, as it is quite tedious to handle all the 3D geometry and stuff yourself, as well as me being able to let better-performing maps have the upper hand

undergroundmonorail

1. Click on someone's username
2. Click "meta user"
3. Click the logo

I forgot that you can get there from the dropdown :(

Trimsty

xD

m.buettner

13:04

@undergroundmonorail "without using the keyboard"? o.O ... who would want to use the mouse instead of the keyboard deliberately?

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner I almost always use the keyboard for everything, but when I'm browsing the internet I find it easier to use a mouse.

Trimsty

1) drag over "chat" in url bar
2) press v while holding ctrl
3) never copy anything ever

m.buettner

for me it's Ctrl+T, M, Enter (I'm there often enough and don't frequent other domains with starting with m that much)

undergroundmonorail

I could get vimium or whatever but I'd have to make it work for my dvorak layout, which idk how to do.

Rusher

@Trimsty What mmo koth?!

Trimsty

13:06

@Rusher the one with the shibes

;3

that i've been planning for like, a month now? o:

Rusher

I wanna play!

Trimsty

yeah, i'm actually releasing it as a game when the koth is done

it's not free-to-play though, i'm too greedy

(i can hand out free memberships as i wish)

undergroundmonorail

Does SE do drafts of answers? I forget if they do or not, and I don't want to write an incomplete spec and edit it a million times.

m.buettner

@Rusher not sure if you scrolled up, undergroundmonorail has a Mafia KotH coming ;)

@undergroundmonorail just use stackedit.io

Trimsty

@m.buettner my life = complete

undergroundmonorail

13:10

@m.buettner Ooh, neat. Beats nano, at least.

Rusher

@undergroundmonorail If you have an incomplete spec, I think that the sandbox says "Put incomplete at the top so we know it's a draft". I don't know if that answers your question.

Trimsty

Also I had a game idea

a stupid one

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher It's not so much "I don't want people to judge it like it's complete when I'm still working on it" as it is "This isn't yet ready for public viewing but I save really often out of habit".

Trimsty

I'm thinking of swapping it out for the current mmo koth, it's a more interesting idea

instead of shibes, you're a rover on the moon harvesting dogecoins! o:

m.buettner

@Rusher solar system koth... at the risk (no pun intended) of getting stuck in a long discussion again ( ;) )... what do you think about making the flagship the "king" of the game? (lose your last flagship and you die)

@Trimsty oh yeah I've heard there are really abundant dogecoin fields on the moon... predominantly on the dark side.

Rusher

13:16

@m.buettner IIRC, the flagship has to be present to colonize, right?

m.buettner

@Rusher yup

Rusher

I think that works for two reasons

Trimsty

shibe is

*on the dark side*

a cjf film ~ coming in december 2014

Rusher

1 - The flagship has to take risks and therefore be on the front line. 2 - There isn't a reward on the flagship so it isn't too risky

Trimsty

or rather, there are multiple moons and you are a large rover with a captain; you can rank up within the doge empire to control your fleet of explorers, raiders and harvesters

but then i'd be cloning the solar system koth

Rusher

13:19

That means if you protect your flagship well enough, nobody will bother it unless they just want to see you die at the expense of a lot of their own units.

undergroundmonorail

How do you guys feel about this explanation of the rules? I feel like it's pretty good but a) I wrote it b) I know how to play, so it could use some extra pairs of eyes.

That is

not what I thought I had copied

Rusher

It's making me nervous

2

The opening paren without a matching one

undergroundmonorail

ix.io/cKL

m.buettner

@Rusher oh I was actually thinking to introduce this specifically to create an incentive. I meant it like this: you still convert beaten enemy flagships to your own (which gives you a spare basically). and you get all the players' bases when he dies in the process (which is the incentive to attack the leading player). in fact I was thinking this would make the flagships too vulnerable so I was thinking about ways to protecting them better.

Rusher

OH well that solves a lot of things. I like that

undergroundmonorail

13:23

@undergroundmonorail Here we go. Thoughts?

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail you're the only person currently pasting on ix.io, it feels creepy :c

m.buettner

@Rusher maybe the double ping didn't work, I suggested it in chat over the weekend: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/15839740#15839740

Rusher

I had a billion notifications and so ignored a few of them

m.buettner

that's fair enough

Rusher

I'm semi active on two other networks

Mostly board and card games

Which, by the way, has easy rep for the picking

m.buettner

13:25

@undergroundmonorail I think you should clarify from the outset that there are special village-aligned roles of cop and doctor

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail sounds like fun :D

m.buettner

@Rusher hrhr, I'm already putting too much of my time into this site at the moment ^^

Trimsty

it's quite comprehensible, just needs an api spec

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner Like, in the explanation of the base rules? I can do that.

@Trimsty As soon as I remember how my own code works. :P

Rusher

Look how many upvotes this answer got. And it deals with two very specific cards out of thousands

m.buettner

13:26

That's insane :D

Trimsty

so THAT'S how you guys get so much rep

Rusher

XD

m.buettner

@undergroundmonorail the spec definitely needs the algorithm for determining the number of mafia and villagers

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher Did you link to Gatherer because it's official, or because you don't know about magiccards.info ? "Because it's official" is a fine reason, but I want to make sure you know about the vastly superior (imo) site.

@m.buettner Yeah

m.buettner

@Trimsty no I do it by posting obvious answers is fun/unknown languages: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/28672/…

@undergroundmonorail and for many players you could consider having two cops

Rusher

13:28

putting [mtg:Card Name] automatically creates a link on that site

undergroundmonorail

Ooh, nice.

Trimsty

@m.buettner my record for upvotes is something like 4 ;_;

m.buettner

@Trimsty by which I mean, I have no idea why this got so many upvotes

2

Trimsty

well, actually it's 13

undergroundmonorail

Rusher

13:29

I can't even finish an answer on this site. Much less get 10 upvotes for the easy ones I can do in Python

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty See, I was going to be funny but I was too slow

Trimsty

xD

people upvote strangely

m.buettner

yup

Trimsty

xD

undergroundmonorail

God I love Ace Attorney. I have an idea for an Ace Attorney-style cross-examination challenge for PPCG rolling around in my head, even.

m.buettner

13:31

when I was really active on SO (tag "regex"), I missed out on a comparably trivial answer (for someone who knows their regex flavours) which got between 500 and 1000 upvotes within 3 days or so... I only have a single silver answer badge there :D

Trimsty

ace attourney is best street fighter (?!)

undergroundmonorail

I'd never be able to get good at UMvC3 even if I owned it, because I would have to play as Phoenix even though he's not good.

Rusher

@Trimsty Took me a while to dig this one up. If anyone ever claims that you vote strangely, link them here.

And look at the other 2 upvoted answers - all in hormany

wow

m.buettner

oh yeah this... in fact I probably wouldn't even have answered but closed as duplicate instead.

Rusher

harmony comes out hormany

Trimsty

13:33

hehehe :3

Rusher

I giggled so much at hormany that I can't press the edit button

Trimsty

hormany hormany

m.buettner

:D

@undergroundmonorail for the KotH, do participants have to write all 4 bots? (or a bot that can deal with all 4 roles)

Trimsty

brb, gotta make instant noodles

undergroundmonorail

Aw, man. Do markdown bulleted lists only have 2 levels of indentation?

m.buettner

13:42

@Rusher if I leave the flagship as is (rolling d8, otherwise the same in fights), but give it such a vital role, do you think that could be problematic? as in, nobody will be able to afford to focus on base-building any more, and instead the only valid strategy is going for enemy flagships? because ideally I'd like both strategies to be possible.

@undergroundmonorail no clue, I never used more

try more spaces, that always helps with markdown

undergroundmonorail

I've tried it. Looks like there's only two levels.

Rusher

Let me think. If I put every single unit I have available to guard my flagship, then you probably will destroy yourself trying to take it, but all my bases will be wide open. On the other hand, if I only defend my bases, my flagship will be (mostly) wide open. Seems like there is a balance somewhere in the middle

Trimsty

i always make it with stock powder, oil and too little water so it starts frying half way through <3

Rusher

@m.buettner Can I up and leave with my flagship if I finish refueling while you are attacking me?

undergroundmonorail

I've decided to replace all instances of "at the beginning of the next morning" with "at the dawn of the next day".

Rusher

13:49

That is creepy

Trimsty

ಠ_ಠ

undergroundmonorail

I've never actually played MM, I just really want to. There's rumors of a 3DS remake <3

Trimsty

now we just need to get a 3DS

m.buettner

@Rusher hm that's a good question. my initial reaction was yes, because I wanted to make each round of fight independent, so you can do whatever you want in between (and with the non-defending units anyway)

Rusher

If I land my flagship on an asteroid belt, how can you finish me off? How does the asteroid belt work with refueling and such?

Trimsty

13:53

tomorrow i'll make some Rameninni al Fredo

m.buettner

yeah I was considering to scrap or rework the asteroid belt, because currently it doesn't really do anything... and once you have two flagships you could just park one there, and use the other for building bases, which would be a bit too safe

the idea of the asteroid belt to work simply as an intermediate stop. you need to stay there for a bit to refuel, but no fights can happen there and no bases can be built. but I'm not sure is such a good idea any more. I just wanted to give it a special role, because it's a unique thing in the inner solar system.

Rusher

After this is over, maybe I'll make civ and we can make bots play civ

Trimsty

yesyesyesyesyes

Rusher

People wrote bots for Age of Empires II, and it's real time. How hard could a turn based bot be?

Trimsty

(i still can't figure out why koths are so insanely fun and exciting)

m.buettner

13:57

I never played Civ, but I'm told it's pretty awesome

Trimsty

the closest i have to Civ is The Settlers or SimCity

Rusher

If you buy Civ 5 my brother and I will play with you

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner same

m.buettner

I'd have so many people playing Civ 5 with me :D

yeah I don't think it's going to happen any time soon, my list of games to play (and games I've already bought but haven't played yet) is way too long anyway

Trimsty

you should buy all the civs!

o:

Rusher

14:01

Not to mention my boyfriend, his brother, my old coworkers, my brother's roommates, my uncle, my cousin, and half the people I play MTG with all play Civ 5. We just don't play much because games take 5 hours on normal settings. And if nobody concedes, it can take longer.

m.buettner

it seems to be... popular...

Rusher

And you don't need the expansion unless you really get into the base game.

m.buettner

@Rusher "Seems like there is a balance somewhere in the middle" ... I'm just afraid that balance will be too close to guarding your flagship all the time.

Rusher

I think it'd be cool if we started playing games together. We could probably put a bot together fairly quickly for any game we play and then just afk farm

m.buettner

how about poker :D

Rusher

14:05

A bot for poker would be ridiculously boring....

m.buettner

you think? it's not like it's "solved" yet, is it? also it's profitable :D

but yeah... like video game wise... could be fun

starbound anyone?

picking a game in open alpha is probably not the best idea though

Trimsty

@Rusher I /do/ have a minecraft server, but yeah, cliche

i can host anything

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty Is it public?

Rusher

I had a minecraft server up for about three weeks last month.

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail nope, invite only

Rusher

14:07

We had two Canadians and four Americans playing most of the time

undergroundmonorail

Darn

Trimsty

you're all invited ;333

xD

undergroundmonorail

:O

Rusher

^ Blowjob face

undergroundmonorail

^

Trimsty

14:08

it's not hard to get in or anything, i just want to limit the amount of people on at once, it runs on 2600mb ram

Rusher

Any mods?

Trimsty

multiverse; there's a spawn world, a vanilla survival world, a factions pvp world, and a creative world w/ worldedit

undergroundmonorail

Cool

Rusher

Running Direwolf20 Client + Direwolf20 Server took 6 GB of RAM total. It was a hungry modpack

Trimsty

all have nethers/ends (except spawn of course)

My friend made a modpack once

the client ran on 12gb ram

undergroundmonorail

14:09

I would like to check that out! I've been looking for a good minecraft server for the past few days, actually.

Trimsty

(he has 16)

@undergroundmonorail thou hast skype account? we have a group for updates and calls and such

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty I do. cestquelleadit

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail thanks, I'll send you a contact request (as GraviPy) and add you to the group

undergroundmonorail

Thanks :)

Rusher

@Trimsty Do you pronounce your name TRIMS-TEYE (as in "eye" or "aye") or TRIMS-TEE (as in "tee" or "tea")?

The s probably belongs with the second syllable but it was easier to see that way

Trimsty

14:13

@Rusher the latter, I've changed it to cjfaure on some sites though due to pronunciation concerns as well as a line of shaving devices

Rusher

Are you French?

Trimsty

my dad's french

mom's german

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty btw, warning: my voice sucks and i'm sick which doesn't do any favours

Rusher

I've always wanted to meet a French person so I could ask them one question - Is Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail as funny to you as it is to everyone else?

2

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail activity on the server is going down a bit anyways

undergroundmonorail

14:15

D:

Trimsty

@Rusher Haven't watched it. :3

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty Watch it! It's fantastic

m.buettner

@Trimsty how is your German then? :P

Rusher

@Trimsty Here is the relevant scene youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs&feature=kp

Trimsty

@m.buettner I can read it but can't write it, I speak a vague dialect

m.buettner

14:16

kk

Trimsty

like, sentence structure is there but not dictionary ;_;

m.buettner

@Rusher How about, when a flagship is around, all units roll d8? Would that make it too strong? I think without that, there's no point in the flagship rolling a d8 in the first place, because you'd still not take it into battle unless you have to (it can still die immediately in an unlucky roll).

Trimsty

or should i say, "like, construction of the sentences is there but it had help needing"?

m.buettner

but if all roll d8, you can defend with the fighters and keep your flagship safely in the "rear guard". and there's an incentive not to pull the flagship away immediately, because your units would lose the bonus.

@Trimsty lol

undergroundmonorail

How's this for an explaination of rules? (Again, this isn't the actual spec, this is for the benefit of humans who have never played the game.)

Rusher

14:20

In Risk you never chose what units you rolled with. They were all equal. So I guess this is a special case

m.buettner

@undergroundmonorail the first sentence looks a lot like a spec :D

Rusher

Are you doing combat like 3 v 2 max? Like in Risk?

m.buettner

@Rusher in classic risk, yes. I've taken inspiration from the 2210 A.D. variant though, which has commanders that roll d8 ... and you can choose whether to use them or not.

undergroundmonorail

(btw:  s are there to stop it from being an unreadable wall of text)

@m.buettner I suppose :P

Trimsty

@Rusher haha, i guess it is

m.buettner

14:22

@Rusher I'll be doing 3 v 2 for attacks on a base and 3 vs 3 for fights on a planet without a base (because by the current rules that makes both combatants "attackers")

Rusher

You could tweak the commander so that the commander can contribute his D8 to rolls, but if he loses, one of his units will die instead

Until he is the last unit, then the next bad roll will convert him

m.buettner

@Rusher so "For each flagship on the planet, one unit may roll a d8 instead of a d6"?

Rusher

Yea. Does that count for attackers?

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner (Funny thing: That line, the one that looks like spec, is pretty much the only place that my implementation subtly differs from the rules [which I'll explain in the actual spec]. :D)

m.buettner

@Rusher it does in 2210 A.D., so I'd say yes.

not sure if that will make people want to take their flagships along for an attack though

Rusher

14:25

That seems like the only way to attack efficiently. Take a few units and a flagship or two and steamroll.

m.buettner

@undergroundmonorail when a player dies, will you only reveal their alignment, not their role?

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner i hecked up

Fixed.

m.buettner

@Rusher did you see the simulation Geobits ran. for large enough army sizes, attackers can win with high certainty even if the defending army is larger.

@undergroundmonorail otherwise those rules look good

undergroundmonorail

@m.buettner Thanks :)

Rusher

Yea but you leave a unit behind at every outpost you take. More than 1 if you don't want to lose it quickly. Your army can't be that large after you attack a few outposts.

Or are you not requiring a defensive unit to be left behind?

m.buettner

14:30

@Rusher hm possibly. it's again one of those cases where I think the game has enough dynamic to create loads of possibilities where you can still get an advantage from attacking with greater numbers.

no I don't require that

undergroundmonorail

Is it fair to say "I reserve the right to exclude any contestant's entry from testing for any reason"? On one hand, "whatever I say" isn't very objective. On the other hand, I don't want a sketchy-looking script that doesn't technically meet any written disqualification criteria screwing up my computer. I could solve that with a VM, but that would make testing annoying and slow. Additionally, I don't want a "changing my wolf's letter"-style rules exploit slipping past me.

m.buettner

but it makes sense if you want to hold your bases

undergroundmonorail

How did I even manage to use backticks instead of asterisks there? I wanted italics, not monospace.

Rusher

@undergroundmonorail I wrote a solid proof that changing your letter was against the rules.

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher You did, but I don't know that I'd be able to.

I just meant "clearly against the spirit of the rules, not obviously against the letter".

m.buettner

14:32

@undergroundmonorail well you can always say "users submitting malicious code as a submission will be disqualified" (the user, not their submissions... so they can't enter with a valid one either) ... and the community might be able to spot malicious code before you actually have to run it

Geobits

@undergroundmonorail My last one had something like "If I even think it's malicious, it's DQ'd along with all your future entries." No complaints from the crowd.

Rusher

One thing I like to do is look at my spec and see "Is it permissive or restrictive?"

m.buettner

@undergroundmonorail I had a similar problem with my Golden Ratio challenge... I think you have more leeway in a KotH than a code-challenge though

Rusher

Permissive means that anything not in the rules is not allowed. Only the rules can permit things

m.buettner

hi @Geobits

Geobits

14:33

hi

Rusher

Restrictive means that anything not explicitly barred is allowed.

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher And restrictive is MTG :)

Rusher

MTG is permissive. If it isn't in the rules, you can't do it.

undergroundmonorail

Right

I don't know what I was thinking there

Wow, yeah, that wasn't even close to right. Where was I coming from?

Also, @Rusher, I think you'll like this:

Rusher

But MTG is permissive by definition. Here you have to make your challenge permissive. You can do that by changing things like "You can do blah" to "You can only do blah".

@undergroundmonorail That is awesome btw...

undergroundmonorail

14:36

It's the best card I've ever designed. :)

For all the people who haven't read/memorized stuff from the MTG Comp. Rules:

> 101.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a).

Rusher

Anyway the point is, if you say "You can only do blah" and someone says "Well, you didn't say I couldn't do blahBlah" then you can just ignore them because they suck at logic.

undergroundmonorail

Yeah.

Thanks for the advice :)

Rusher

No problem. I wrote the last part because I know my points aren't super clear sometimes

I feel so redundant typing it like that

Also, if someone is being a complete jerk about your spec, make a ninja edit and tell us and we'll all deny that the spec changed at all. We have your back!

undergroundmonorail

:D

Trimsty

Clevo's page translation is quite funny

clevo.com.tw/en/products/prodinfo.asp?productid=516

It's more faster!

Simply button!

undergroundmonorail

14:44

@Trimsty ♪ Work it harder / Make it better / It's more faster / Makes us stronger ♫

Trimsty

xD

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher I just found this. Push is OP and Pop doesn't work but I like it anyway.

mtg's stack taught me how the data structure works :)

Rusher

I know why pop doesn't work, but I want to know why you don't think it does

undergroundmonorail

It counters itself. (Technically it could counter something else, but there's no reason to cast anything in response to it.) First thought was "you can't counter yourself", but that's wrong. You can't target yourself.

Rusher

Haha yea it creates a weird loophole there

undergroundmonorail

14:50

For the "a spell on the stack" definition of "you", of course.

Rusher

But it's already resolving when it counters itself, so MTG breaks?

undergroundmonorail

Or something. :P

Rusher

Ok so I just did a little bit of reading

And it looks like cards that make choices instead of targets can choose illegal targets

undergroundmonorail

Yeah

Rusher

But on resolution it has a target

And the target is illegal

So it gets countered by game rules?

undergroundmonorail

14:55

I suppose.

Rusher

Hurts my brain

undergroundmonorail

Here's a fun combo. Ever wanted to force a game to go to time?

Trimsty

so my mc server was down for a few days apparently

undergroundmonorail

Can you infract a piece of cardboard for Slow Play?

Peter Taylor

@undergroundmonorail No, technically it can't counter something else, because if something is played in response to Pop then that something will no longer be on the stack when Pop resolves, so Pop will attempt to counter it and fail.

undergroundmonorail

14:59

True, right. Oops.

Peter Taylor

@Rusher Off the top of my head, I don't think that a spell has any targets unless it uses the word target

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