The Nineteenth Byte

12:10 AM

Meanwhile, the "recommended" in the badge tracker is still Deputy (44/80) even though Legendary (83/150) is higher in value :/

lyxal

12:40 AM

have y'all ever seen this?

ngn

@lyxal now we have :)

(verified, not rickroll)

hyper-neutrino

wait, you can have a GIF as a pfp?

doesn't animate on posts, only on your profile, but that's cool

caird coinheringaahing

Isn't moving for me

Redwolf Programs

Doesn't appear animated to me

hyper-neutrino

looks like one of my userscripts is doing it

Redwolf Programs

12:53 AM

Also animated png ftw

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Which one?

hyper-neutrino

idk i have 31 active right now

(on main site)

caird coinheringaahing

...

hyper-neutrino

it's probably the same one that was replacing a few users' pfps with a power button icon thingy or smth. idk which it is

caird coinheringaahing

31?

How?

Redwolf Programs

12:54 AM

More importantly, why?

hyper-neutrino

i recently installed a bunch for mod tools and such. most of them are probably excessive. it's cool tho

i really don't need mod tool userscripts, it's better for sites like SO where clean-up moderation actually takes time, but they're cool

Redwolf Programs

Also I'd be worried about one of those 31 userscripts having something malicious in them given that you don't seem to know what some of them do :p

hyper-neutrino

they are from a scripter that is supposedly very trusted :p (they're all by the same guy and he has apparently single handedly made a significant improvement to SO's moderation via this)

Bubbler

Advertisement: 50 challenges are still waiting for my APL bounty.

hyper-neutrino

i'll probably go through and find which ones i don't need and get rid of them sometime

if i were paranoid about malicious userscripts i'd probably uninstall yours too :p

ngn

12:58 AM

@Bubbler is k an apl?

Bubbler

No, it follows Adam's definition (so even J isn't an APL)

ngn

i'm not familiar with adam's definition, but ok

Bubbler

but I'm thinking of offering a separate bounty for solving a hard problem in any language

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino Hey whoa, I put a ton of work in to try and keep my userscripts trustworthy

I would refer you to this

Bubbler

> The answer is in Dyalog APL Classic/Unicode/Extended/Prime, APL2, APL+, APLSE, GNU/APL, Sharp APL, sAPL, SAX, NARS, APLX, A+, dzaima/APL, ngn/APL, APL\iv, Watcom APL, or APL\360

hyper-neutrino

1:05 AM

ik, mostly joking :p i trust you enough

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino you're either JoKing, or you aren't - there's no in-between values. And in this case, you aren't

Redwolf Programs

Userscripts are kinda scary if you don't know what they're doing. They could easily steal bank credentials if you didn't pay attention to one little line, so I'm very careful to try to keep my userscript code readable (and any scripts I develop that work with pages containing sensitive information aren't publically available in case of some sort of exploit they could introduce)

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Pretty sure the mods are forming a hivemind to compete with Redwolf, so HN is mostly joking :P

Bubbler

CMP: What do you think about proposing J and/or K for LotM?

caird coinheringaahing

I think it's kind of unnecessary

hyper-neutrino

1:09 AM

yeah. you're probably right; i should probably be more careful with what userscripts i use especially as a mod.

caird coinheringaahing

They're both popular languages, with a dedicated userbase, and you can find a J and a K answer on most challenges

ngn

@Bubbler both are great languages, but both underrepresented in codegolf, unfortunately

@cairdcoinheringaahing but good old apl gets the largest share because commercial promotion..

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, if you look more closely, the dedicated userbase is quite small. It just happens that a few of the users are very heavy CGCC users

hyper-neutrino

J seems quite commonly used but like 90% of them are Jonah, or at least it feels like it :P

caird coinheringaahing

I think J has 3 primary users, which is the same as 05AB1E (Jonah, xash and Galen Ivanov vs Kevin, ovs and Makonede)

Jelly has 5 (?) (Me, HN, Jonathan, xigoi and Nick)

Wait, 05AB1E also has Grimmy and CommandMaster

ngn

1:15 AM

@Bubbler you mean dedicated userbase in cgcc?

Bubbler

@ngn Yes

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing bubbler is (or used to be?) a big j fan too, iirc

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing +1 for J: me, because whenever I see Jonah's solution I try to golf it :P

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn I hate to say this, but by my metric (SEDE query), if we count Bubbler, we also count Lynn, taking it to 5 :P

FrownyFrog is also a fairly active J user

Bubbler

Oh yes

ngn

1:18 AM

right

Bubbler

though some of them are inactive now

caird coinheringaahing

J answers not by Jonah

ngn

huh, i thought i had a few too. they might have been just improvements on other people's answers.

caird coinheringaahing

The search isn't perfect (looks for links with J as the last character), so likely misses a few

ngn

is there a way to query who is credited in the answers?

caird coinheringaahing

1:33 AM

@ngn I think SQL has some kind of regex engine, so you could search for -N bytes thanks to ngn in the body, but I'm not sure how successful that would be. Here's a first shot just using body like which appears to be fairly good

Redwolf Programs

Oh no

Another thing SQL can ruin for me

RegExp

caird coinheringaahing

SQL + Regex sounds bad tbh :P

CMQ: How do you pronounce "regex"? For me, it's "ree-jex"

Redwolf Programs

Redj-ex

Like the first syllable of "register"

Bubbler

reg (as in regular) + ex (as in X)

Redwolf Programs

But regexp is reg as in regular, then exp as in exp

I'm inconsistent

Bubbler

1:35 AM

exp is hard to pronounce :P

Redwolf Programs

Is it?

Bubbler

and reg-ix is weird as hell

caird coinheringaahing

I recently watched a Tom Scott video where he pronounced it "reg-ex" (hard g) and went "Hang on, do people not pronounce it "rejecks"?"

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing hm. when i fork it and try to run it, it says "Anonymous users must solve a captcha. Please complete the captcha and submit again." but there is no captcha

Redwolf Programs

@Bubbler I don't pronounce it like reg-ix

caird coinheringaahing

1:36 AM

@ngn Did you try waiting for a second? SEDE's captchas are slow

Also, you can sign in using your SE account (click "log in", "log in with stack overflow") and it skips the captcha

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing ah. now it works

Bubbler

a crude version of pure J answer improved by ngn

ngn

i was logged in

Bubbler

because some answers have K code together and mess up with the query

ngn

@Bubbler thanks :)

caird coinheringaahing

1:38 AM

@Bubbler And the first answer wasn't even improved, it was "courtesy of" ngn :P

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, it was a lucky coincidence that something that's a primitive in j was discussed in this chat

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn You got to love J having a 1 byte version of a Jelly 2 byte builtin :P

ngn

@ngn (actually not even discussed, the bot posted news about a new challenge..)

caird coinheringaahing

Answers that mention you. Skips this because I wrote it for me first :P

Bubbler

The problem is that you'll get a bunch of ngn/k and ngn/apl answers if you simply enter ngn there, unless you count them as "mention" :P

caird coinheringaahing

1:46 AM

You might want to add in a OwnerUserId <> youruserid as well :P

lyxal

TIL deleted users don't have any name shown in the query database

caird coinheringaahing

Answers that mention you, sorted by activity. Excludes the provided user id

ngn

most ngn/k answers are by user coltim, he has more than me

(i'm still trying to construct a query to prove it)

lyxal

Aw man my kettle just finished boiling and I thought it smelled a bit funny so I went to see if it was the water inside only to be blasted in the nose with steam. Bad idea 0/10 wouldn't attempt again

Sandbox Posts

2:02 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Verify the Perfect Rectangle According to Wolfram Mathworld, a perfect rectangle is defined to be a rectangle that can be divided into squares of different side lengths. In this challenge, we are going to verify whether or not an arrangement is a perfect rectangle. For the input, there should be ...

ngn

@ngn maybe not. sede says 129 vs 89

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Here's a good query. By my search, you have 128 ngn/k answers and coltim has 88

ngn

@ngn ah, coltim was golfing in oK initially

caird coinheringaahing

Hmm, I'm the 4th more prolific Jelly golfer. Only got 246 Jelly answers to go to beat Erik :P

hyper-neutrino

oh i'm 6th? that's better than i expected TBH :p

ngn

2:12 AM

@ngn it's ironic i have to use sql and wait for seconds to analyze data about k answers :)

caird coinheringaahing

:( Jelly answerers with 50+ answers, sorted by average score

Unrelated String

:58137060 he's #2

ngn

i've just realized.. :)

Unrelated String

wait i have 103 jelly answers out of 401 total answers

no way have i written that much brachylog

New Sandbox Posts

2:28 AM

@SandboxPosts I like butter.

Unrelated String

okay 238 brachylog answers and i think that's including the ones that are explicitly v2

Feeds

hyper-neutrino has stopped a feed from being posted into this room

hyper-neutrino

presumably new posts works for meta too; I don't see why it wouldn't

Feeds

hyper-neutrino has stopped a feed from being posted into this room

Redwolf Programs

3:00 AM

Tonight's BMG, right?

Looks like 7 people have registered, so it'll be a bit smaller I guess

Who all will be awake at that time?

(five hours from now)

lyxal

yes. but avaliable, idk?

hyper-neutrino

i will try to wake up then, so i'm sleeping now so i can get up for work tmr and not be dead. goodnight o/

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I should be, assuming I sleep now

lyxal

wow y'all in trash timezones while it only do be 1PM for me

caird coinheringaahing

Also, I don't know why YouTube bothers showing me Chromebook ads, when I already spend time talking with Redwolf :P

Redwolf Programs

3:32 AM

I unfortunately won't be at this BMG, since tomorrow's the last day of school and I'd rather not be half-asleep for it

As long as an RO or mod or even active TNB member is there it shouldn't be too hard to coordinate, just make sure to start the drafting an hour or two before it starts, and get a list of 10 or so CMCs compiled before it starts

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms imagine not having had your last-last day of school yet ;p

Redwolf Programs

It's only four last-day-of-schools away for me :p

9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th

9th being tomorrow

lyxal

can the Sandbox Posts bot reply to messages?

Redwolf Programs

It technically can, but it doesn't

lyxal

sad.

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/124738/…

Redwolf Programs

3:36 AM

lol

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing you don't use an ad blocker?

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Chromebook ads are really bad and at worst misleading, ignore them

What I really don't get is why I was shown them while viewing them on a chromebook

lyxal

Welp I don't have a reason to ever ask "Who's Joe" again. This is Joe

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn I probably should, but I've never bothered. I spent at least 30% of my time on my phone, such as now, so it doesn't really help, I can skip most YouTube ads within 3 seconds and I just ignore ads elsewhere

@RedwolfPrograms But Chromebooks have the "everything" button, which can suggest golfs to any answer, unless it was written by Arnauld or Dennis

Redwolf Programs

I wouldn't block YT ads if I had the option, I like supporting the people I watch

@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't like their new term "everything button", it's basically just a handy shortcut for google

But it's sort of like calling siri "the everything voice" :p

lyxal

3:46 AM

And calling Jelly "the everything language"

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms this may be cold hearted, but off the many YouTube creators I watch, there are two that I'd consider paying for, and even then, I already pay for one and the other is only because I like the guys who run the channel

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms nowadays, most people I "watch" are just one-off views because they've posted a funny vine or something

ngn

ads are annoying to the consumer to a much greater extent than they are helpful to the producer

caird coinheringaahing

I refuse to subscribe to anyone who says "Hey guys, I noticed that only X% of you actually subscribe", and most people I watch have multiple millions of subscribers anyway

Redwolf Programs

@ngn In general I agree

caird coinheringaahing

3:49 AM

@ngn If a company shows me an ad that interrupts me (video, post, etc.) I outright refuse to ever buy from that company

The next phone I get will be not an iPhone, because Apple keeps showing me ads. That's the only reason

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing What if that company produces electricity for your house

Redwolf Programs

I don't dislike advertising that much

ngn

@Bubbler those are usually monopolies, they don't need to advertise

Redwolf Programs

Companies need to get people to notice their stuff

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler I suppose I have the luxury of not being in that situation

Redwolf Programs

3:51 AM

It's obnoxious or manipulative ads I disagree with

Ones that are just "here's our product, this is what it does, here's how much it costs and where to get it" in ten seconds or so with a nice voiceover or background music are perfectly fine imo

caird coinheringaahing

But, obviously, I'd buy from a company I need to over my moral objections. Which is a huge problem but still

ngn

@RedwolfPrograms one way to do that is by producing quality products

Redwolf Programs

If a very well made tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to buy it, was it really well made at all? :p

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Disagree. If I can, I won't buy anything I recognise from an ad

Bubbler

IMO mobile game ads are the most misleading of all, to the point it's just funny

Redwolf Programs

3:53 AM

I won't buy anything just because I saw an ad for it, but I don't go out of my way to avoid companies that advertise their stuff

Bubbler

like, a plain match-3 "luck rules all" game advertised as a totally different brain game

caird coinheringaahing

I think the only "exception" to that is the CGCC community ads, because those are posted by people K more or less trust

Bubbler

and I've seen like five different games use the exact same template for their ads, so from the surface it looks like the five are clones of each other

Redwolf Programs

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a large company that doesn't advertise their stuff

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing ah yes, "K", the new way to use personal pronouns ;p

Redwolf Programs

3:56 AM

@Bubbler Yeah, mobile game ads are the worst

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I've spent lockdown (aka 18months) looking for an Applejack spirit for cocktails. I've settled on a whiskey-calvados blend because Jack Daniels insists on marketing their Applejack, which I point blanc will not buy, because they advertised it to me

Redwolf Programs

No idea how they think those are going to get people to download the app and actually stick around

ngn

@RedwolfPrograms of course. if regulations allow it, it's in their interest to take advantage of advertising. but it's not good for the consumers. it's not like advertising can help them make more informed choices.

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal I go by he/she (primarily she), but if you want to use that, I also go by j/k/apl/jelly ;)

Bubbler

Another funny point is that I played one of the games once, then deleted it, and I get an endless stream of ads for that game

Redwolf Programs

3:57 AM

You do go by J, right?

(get it, J sounds like Jay)

(I'll go now)

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing "caird? yeah, I've heard of apl... jelly is a room owner right?"

Bubbler

J=Jay, K=Kay

APL and Jelly, well :P

caird coinheringaahing

Fun fact, one of my coworkers is called Kay :P

Redwolf Programs

Do they trust community ads, then?

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Name, yes. Pronoun, no :)

@RedwolfPrograms I don't think they use SE, but I could be wrong :P

Bubbler

3:59 AM

I actually tried K once at a Starbucks in US, and they literally wrote down K

(and not Kay)

lyxal

Is starbucks actually any good?

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing The problem is, competitors could be advertising even more, and potentially in a worse way

caird coinheringaahing

I've gone by "Chloe" (a normal US name) at Starbucks before, and they called me "Clay"

@lyxal There is almost always a better alternative

lyxal

TIL we actually have Starbucks in Australia

Bubbler

@lyxal Good for (ab)using a little bit of corporate money :P

caird coinheringaahing

4:01 AM

@RedwolfPrograms And O refuse to buy from them as well

Bubbler

aka when you don't have to spend your own money

caird coinheringaahing

My policy is very clear: if you show me an ad for your services, I will actively make steps to avoid your company as much as I can

4

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing My point is that anything you buy is probably advertised to someone, so by avoiding things advertised to you, you ensure that you have exactly zero knowledge about how bad their ads may or may not be

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms ngl, I don't care much about your ads to other people

"your" - the ads shown to you, a third person user reading this and the above messages

lyxal

"your"?

Redwolf Programs

4:04 AM

I'd rather just buy the best product regardless of advertising

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal your

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing your?!

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I've found that my preferred products tend not to advertise, at least not in the way that pisses me off

@lyxal your?!?!

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing your....

ngn

in theory, in a free market, the one who produces the best product should prosper, right?

Redwolf Programs

4:05 AM

your.

and that's final.

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Presenting: Betamax vs VHS

ngn

ads are designed to achieve exactly the opposite - convince others that your ("your") product is better even when it isn't

caird coinheringaahing

As much as right-wingers like to argue, countries such as the US do not have a free market

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms actually, it's your

Redwolf Programs

(your

lyxal

4:07 AM

)

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing well, i meant a hypothetical free market :)

Redwolf Programs

Well nobody's going to have a truly free market, that'd end up really bad really fast

caird coinheringaahing

What they do have is an economic system run by those with the most money; the more money you have, the more power you have. Conservative SCOTUS judges have made it their prerogative to give companies with more money as much power in as many areas as they can

@ngn idk, sounds a lot like ancap

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing not my kind of an

caird coinheringaahing

I don't see how a "truly free market" can be anything other than an anarcho-based system

ngn

4:12 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing there's a big difference between anarchism in general and anarcho-capitalism. most anarchists don't consider anarcho-capitalists to be part of the anarchist movement (reference: apt-get install anarchism)

caird coinheringaahing

But ancaps are inherently pro-anarchism. Literally most of their talking points are either anarchist or "When government does X, it's bad. When company does X, it's good", which are essentially anarchist

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing "when company does X, it's good" - anarchosyndicalists (such as chomsky) would very often disagree with that

caird coinheringaahing

Anarchism is a spectrum, which covers ancaps. To say that every anarchist is an ancap is false, but every ancap is anarchist

@ngn What is "your kind of an"?

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing well.. that's not the impression i have

@cairdcoinheringaahing i would align with chomsky :)

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Then what's your impression? I'm not sure how exactly you could describe yourself as ancap without agreeing with what I've said

Unrelated String

4:20 AM

i feel like anarcho-capitalism is anarchist in a broad sense but does not fall into the category of things that one might refer to as anarchism

Redwolf Programs

^

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing i hope we're not going too far off topic into forbidden territory, but: the goal of anarchism is to challenge the necessity for concentrations of power. sometimes the use of power is legitimate, but more often it's not. private corporations wield a lot of power and they are in private hands. unlike governments, they are not even accountable to the general public; only to their shareholders.

Redwolf Programs

To me anarchism and anarcho-capitalism have similar underlying ideas, but I wouldn't consider one a subset of the other

caird coinheringaahing

If you consider the political compass, where would y'all put ancaps? I'd very much place them in right-lib/lib-center

Redwolf Programs

Seems like that'd mostly be on the left-right axis rather than the lib-auth one

From my (limited) understanding at least

Razetime

4:25 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing probably between caps lock and num lock

3

Redwolf Programs

anarcho-caps-lock is my political ideology

A username

4:57 AM

4

Best commit name.

ophact

5:12 AM

Yesterday we were talking about prefix/postfix, (which is still a credible topic), then we somehow got into a discussion about clocks, and then I slept and suddenly we're discussing political structures. How interesting.

Redwolf Programs

You uh...missed some much more off topic stuff

As the starboard shows

ophact

Okay, I just love this chatroom. By the way, we are still doing the minigolf, right?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

Should be a about 3h from now

ophact

How long does it last?

Redwolf Programs

90m, although there's some time beforehand where the challenges are drafted

Unfortunately I have to go to sleep now, so I'll miss the event this time. See y'all! o/

ophact

5:23 AM

Bye! Have a good last day of school.

Redwolf Programs

Thanks!

ophact

I hope I'll be available at 10, as I'm usually in a bit of a hurry at that time. Which difficulty level are the mini challenges?

Ik it said "short and simple" but could someone give a clear example? I wasn't here for the last one. (Asleep)

Bubbler

Very easy to medium, I guess, though it's likely to be harder in some languages than others

lyxal

@Ausername I really do be fixing bugs though

Bubbler

@ophact You can read through the last event to see the challenges used last time

ngn

5:29 AM

unfortunately i'll have to skip the new event. have fun, y'all

xash

Does anyone have a good example for ?useful? or at least fun applications for a run-time macro expansion (e.g. user types in 4 while running the program, and the next 4 tokens gets deleted)?

John Dvorak

if someone ever makes a rustscript, they'll need to be able to handle macros at runtime

pxeger

7:01 AM

Python has a proposal for syntactic macros, which would have to be usable at runtime: python.org/dev/peps/pep-0638

A username

7:13 AM

@lyxal I know. I see you fixed the bug with the register not being global.

lyxal

@Ausername a long time ago, yes

A username

Yes. The problem is, that still happens with variables...

I'd suggest having a dict for global variables and declaring that global.

Otherwise you'd have a lot of complications.

Bubbler

Announcement: Less than an hour is left until the next BMG starts. For anyone interested, please come over BMG Drafts and feel free to suggest or vote on the draft challenges.

A username

Is drafting still open? I haven't got anything but just in case?

Bubbler

It is open until the event starts.

A username

7:20 AM

Kk.

ngn

@ngn i made it after all

2

lyxal

@Ausername status:might-not-fix