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12:42 AM
Q: Gluing tetrahedra together

Peter Kagey(This challenge exists to extend sequence A267272 in the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences, and perhaps create a new OEIS sequence1.) This is a code-challenge, which will have you write code to compute as many terms of this sequence as possible. Background A polytet is a kind of poly...

3 hours later…
3:18 AM
Dang it, it's a week to the election and I forgot to finish political simulator :/
I guess I'll work extra fast and see if I can finish it in the next few days
Do any of you have way too many projects and can't keep track of them all? I feel like the guy in XKCD #1106
3:34 AM
i can relate to that xkcd especially the hover text lol
the one thing i usually get done the easiest is also the one thing i didn't actually really need to get done
3:53 AM
And usually it is solving a code golf challenge
for me it's actually cs assignments, which doesn't sound all that bad except it's usually ones that are due in like one or two weeks when i literally have an english assignment due on that day xD
Lol, same for me when I was in university
For me it's writing challenges...I have probably 50 KoTH drafts that I've either never had time to finish, or didn't end up seeming fun
4:30 AM
Husk. Like if you agree
4:45 AM
@Razetime -1 cuz obviously it must be APL
5:14 AM
5 hours later…
9:57 AM
CMQ: Have any of your programming languages (eso or practical) been mentioned in online articles/forums etc without you actually writing said inclusion?
I.e. You didn't post the article/have any involvement with it
probably happens a fair deal to ais but i can't remember the last time i saw him around
well... technically :D I have written an intcode implementation, and the language has been mentioned in several AOCs :D
Not mine, but Jelly (created by Dennis) and RAD (created by Zachary) have respective pages on APL wiki.
CMQ: How would you represent a pub in a 3x3 px pictogram?
@Lyxal what's up with that ginormous gray rectangle at the top?
10:08 AM
@JohnDvorak I can only presume it's a jabberwocky
Not my article btw
horizontal scroll - ewwwwww.
This is the first time in ever that I used the Firefox reader mode.
@JohnDvorak ^
Wow I thought that'd render bigger
I guess it is saved as a 3x3 pixel after all
It's supposed to be a glass with beer inside
Got it, thanks
Do you need an enlarged version?
Opening it in Gimp did the trick
10:20 AM
Very cool. Do you think it resembles a pub?
Also, why 3x3? Pictograms can't exactly portray much in such a small space.
I use it to distinguish objects that are 3x3 tiles in size on a map and I don't want to upscale.
@Lyxal My Extended Dyalog APL is mentioned repeatedly on APL Wiki.
In completely unrelated news, would someone here be interested in a full map of Monster's Expedition?
@Sisyphus Bz0ṚFḄ also isn't a bijection, since it gives the same result of 7 for [2, 1, 1] and [2, 1, 2]
@Lyxal Ah nice, D♭ exists to complement C# (well, C♯) I guess?
11:24 AM
> Brainfuck has inspired countless imitator languages, including: [...] JSFuck
I mean, in the same way that Java inspired Javascript
@Neil You're right. I think it'd have to be something like BUz0FḄ.
Actually, that still doesn't work. Maybe tack another reverse in there like BUz0FṚḄ, but now it's getting much too long.
11:41 AM
@Sisyphus yeah, I think another reverse works
12:05 PM
@Lyxal I find it strange that in the section on the palindrome challenge, the article neglected to mention that the solutions themselves have to be palindromes
and what's worse is that the author missed a space in his Java example
@UnrelatedString I thought it was even worse that they didn't credit half the language authors. Like Funciton was created by a PPCG user Timwi, it really wouldn't have been difficult to mention that
12:19 PM
@Lyxal The article calls APL an esolang...nobody tell Adám :p
#17 is "languages with 2-dimensional source code", so technically one of my languages falls under that category :p
@RedwolfPrograms Well, he questions that label: "(if you can call it that)".
He has redundant parens in his simple APL sample: +/(3+⍳4)
1:17 PM
@UnrelatedString I look at the site and/or the TNB archives every now and then, but it's a pain to actually log in to the site and/or to chat (two different accounts with two different reputation levels)
although I posted an answer today, I golfed an old answer of mine down from 309 to 228 bytes when the next-best answer was 890 bytes
@Lyxal ugh, that article contains misinformation about INTERCAL copied from Wikipedia
@ais523 It is kinda weird when one of your answers shows up in the First Posts review queues, and I have to stop myself from my default "Welcome to the site, here are some helpful links" :P
heh, are they still going there? I think being locked at 11 rep breaks a number of site functions somewhat :-)
although somehow I dropped down to 9 rep, "user was removed", and had to find a post to edit
I checked all my edit suggestions and couldn't figure out what user had been removed to drop the rep, so maybe something weird's going on, but I've long since learned that questioning the Stack Exchange software is a path to sadness and insanity
I think it might actually be the late answers queue, because that IIRC works on rep, not account age
oh, "late answers" would be a perfect fit for that one
3 years after the previous answer, from a user with 11 rep, it almost certainly should go there
Yeah, I tend to lump them together cause posts go to both LA and FP queues all the time
@ais523 How does removing a user drop you 2 rep?
1:23 PM
according to the documentation, it can't, the documentation says that removing a user undoes their votes but there's no way to get exactly +2 rep from a user by votes when all your posts are community wiki
the only rep on my account came from 5 suggested edits, and a suggested edit is +2, so presumably an edit suggestion rep boost got removed somehow
I think you lose edit rep if the edit is rolled back, but that doesn't involve removing a user :/
but all my edit suggestions were approved by users that still exist (or at least, had non-redacted usernames), and on posts by users that still exist, so ???
I hope this isn't fixed, at least, because it'll be a pain to get the account back to 11 rep if I end up losing that -2 at some point in the future
@ais523 Downvote a couple of LQ answers
don't have the rep to even upvote
and downvoting needs a lot more
I am very happy that CWing posts needs less rep than voting on them, it helps avoid me voting on posts by mistake (this prevents accidentally upvoting the same post twice, as I have no way of remembering which posts I voted on using my previous account, and I don't think those votes were deleted with the user)
@ais523 IIRC, your votes don't get deleted if your account is older than a certain age, and I don't remember a bunch of people complaining about losing thousands of rep when you "left"
1:29 PM
it's up to the moderators and/or admins whether they're deleted, I don't know for certain but it's very likely that they'd have chosen to keep them
4 hours later…
5:40 PM
Posting Political Simulator in 5 hours
Actually I'm impatient. Posting now.
Volunteers wanted: We're getting ready for the 2021 APL Problem Solving Competition, and are seeking volunteers to review and solve the candidate problems, and test the website. Please ping me if you're interested ― you don't have to know APL. (Of course, this disqualifies you from winning.)
6:01 PM
Browsing the Late Answers queue when suddenly
> ais523
And for some reason, Google tries to translate Jelly from Vietnamese
I reviewed a suggested edit by them, pretty much an automatic "Approve" :p
6:48 PM
Q: KoTH: Political Simulator

Redwolf ProgramsIt's election time, and your job is to beat your competitor in a head-on rivalry! You are both trying to win over a city of 256 people in a 16x16 grid. Right now, the city hasn't been divided into voting regions yet, but that's where your gerrymandering skills come in! You can also campaign in ar...

6:58 PM
@RedwolfPrograms I found myself unexpectedly in need of 2 reputation so that I could CW the answer that I'd been thinking about on and off for the past 3 years
the funny thing is, I made the edit on a question that had been inactive for over 8 years, but it got approved by the original author rather than by voting
(it took a while to find a question that could do with a good edit, and I normally look at the least active questions for reputation edits as they're least likely to have had any problems with them fixed)
7:36 PM
@Adám not knowing APL probably disqualifies me from winning even without testing the website
@Neil :-) Does that mean you're volunteering?
@Adám Does that mean we can we use languages other than APL to test the problems?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, part of the testing is for clarity of spec and solvability of task.
7:57 PM
Jelly would probably make a good test language, if you know that; it has a shared history with APL, so they're good at the same types of problems
@ais523 Yeah, I was considering doing a bit of volunteering with Jelly
@Adám I won't say no to reviewing a couple of the challenges
@ais523 Indeed. Last year, we had someone use J too.
8:42 PM
@Adám if I'm able to use Python and other esolangs from around here, I'll be able to help out with some volunteering.
@Lyxal Absolutely.
@ais523 So, are you in?
@Adám Count me in then
OK, all that are in, email me: adam@ with the same domain as www.dyalog.com and we'll contact you with an NDA when we're ready for review.
@Adám what should the subject of the email be?
Q: get length of dot from any point on a line

foreverthe goal is to make a function which takes in a list or vector of length 4, which represents a line in that the first item is the starting x position of the line, the second is the starting y position, the third is the ending x position, and the fourth is the ending y position, an x coordinate fo...

8:56 PM
@Lyxal "2021 contest volunteering"
9:09 PM
@Adám Out of interest, why the whole "adam@ + same domain as ..." rather than just "email me at name@domain.com?"
@cairdcoinheringaahing To avoid bots scraping email addresses for spam.
That makes sense
Also, sorry to whoever has name@domain.com for the spam that might come your way
@Adám was my email received?
@Lyxal Yes, confirmed and added to internal list of beta testers. Thank you.
@cairdcoinheringaahing You're confirmed too.
9:16 PM
@Adám sorry, I can't guarantee being able to dedicate any time to something like this, so you'd probably be better off with someone else testing
No worries.
Out of curiosity has anyone ever asked a reverse 99 bottles of beer challenge here on cgcc
How do you reverse 99bob?
You put the bottles back on the wall
9:20 PM
it'd probably be too similar to a forwards bottles of beer challenge
And you just keep infinitely placing them
maybe slightly easier because the boundary conditions are easier
but not by enough to make it not a duplicate
In my opinion we already have too many produce infinite output challenges.
We have two right now, and I think the third would be a duplicate of both of them. (I also think they are duplicates of each other but that's another thing.)
@WheatWizard Don;t we have like 4 challenges which are basically produce some form of infinite output?
Scream, lololol, produce infinite output and I think there's another one
I can only think of 2. But I would not be surprised. There are a lot of bad challenges out there.
9:30 PM
Can anyone help me understand what OP is saying in the last few comments here? codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/214262/…
Personally I'm 100% for closing lololol as a dupe of scream but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@xnor Yeah, me too.
It looks like they want to put in a run-time limit, which might be good to make solutions less brute-forcey, but unfortunate to edit at this stage
Oh no. Not "real number" input.
No idea what they're saying, but I reckon they should delete and post over to the sandbox
9:32 PM
The challenge seems very clear to me.
I probably should have directed them to the Sandbox in the first place rather than trying to quickly fix the challenge.
Yeah, to me too, except the 1 comment.
@WheatWizard I rewrote it, but this as always has the risk that OP meant something different or pipes in with new requirements
I do think it would be cool if solutions used actual math rather than testing the distance to every point on the segment up to some precision
That challenge has a bunch of hidden problems that they won't have anticipated (floating point values, needs test cases, whatever they're trying to say in the comments etc.) that I reckon it should at least move to the Sandbox for a bit of cleaning, then edited and undeleted once its fully clear
Then again, I am on the more cautious side when it comes to posting challenges
Agreed. Can mods do that?
9:35 PM
Hmmm. I wonder.
Seems like that might come off as a bit mod abuse-y, especially if the user doesn't want it
I can close it. I don't know about moving it to the sandbox.
I think it is close enough to OK that we can leave it. No answers yet either.
I'm not opposed to having it hammered, Sandboxed then reopened, but it is definitely close enough to be easily fixed with some involvement by the OP
In my opinion it is better to close things when there are no answers. Closure prevents answers from coming in when things really get hairy.
9:37 PM
Yeah, especially since solutions might become invalid with run-time or precision requirements
Closure is also not a huge deal. Very easy to get reversed.
Especially in this case
Then we should at least notify the OP about it not being a rejection of their challenge, but just a constructive mechanism working as planned.
Unrelated: I like finding inactive challenges to compete in, but there are two major pet peeves I have that a lot of old challenges have/use: banning builtins and time restrictions
@cairdcoinheringaahing Not to mention awkward I/O.
9:39 PM
Example. Interesting challenge right up until "no builtin functions for prime testing, prime generation or prime gaps"
> Hello, and welcome to the site. I think this challenge is interesting. I am going to close it to prevent any answers while the details from above are ironed out. This is by no means permenent. You can still hammer it out here or in the sandbox. When these have been fixed users can vote to reopen or you can flag it for moderator attention and we can have a check to open it back up
@Adám I can handle that, because I usually use the current site standards as my main, then include a longer solution that complies with "space separated STDIN input"
@WheatWizard Sounds good IMO
@WheatWizard Go for it.
9:50 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing this sort of thing gets hard to define objectively, e.g. does Brachylog's "decompose into prime factors" builtin count? what about unmultiplication with an unknown?
Heh, and in some APLs, if you apply product -1 times then you get the factors. Built-in?
@ais523 Yeah. That's one of my two main complaints against banning builtins (the other being "banning builtins doesn't make your boring challenge interesting, but it does make your interesting challenge boring")
But, it's an old question, so it's not that surprising
to be fair, that one is pretty trivial with builtins
There's nothing wrong with trivial questions IMO
although, "find the indexes of the largest elements so far in this sequence" (which is what it boils down to in Jelly after builtin usage) is probably an interesting building block to write in its own right
actually, those are some of the most interesting things to microgolf, in golfing languages
9:54 PM
Sure Jelly, 05AB1E or Brachylog might be able to do it in <5 bytes, but trivial questions usually lead to some of the most interesting answers in some languages
the sorts of things that seem like they should be builtins but are just slightly too complex to have been added to the language (and not just because they're a trivial combination of two builtins and giving them a name wouldn't be any shorter than just writing the original commands)
5 seems low for that, actually
TBH, I didn't actually give it a go after seeing the ban, so I have very little frame of reference :P
5 was just a low number I chose :P
Just gave it a shot (using prime builtins) and it took me 16 bytes so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Half of that was the infinite loop + printing tho
my quick (and very inefficient) Jelly attempt was 17: ÆRIUMP=Ẓ¶Ṅ1Ç?¬µ1#
actually I can shave off 2 bytes by writing the loop manually I think
yep: ÆRIUMP=Ẓ¶Ṅ¹Ç?‘ß
10:10 PM
you're supposed to only output the new record largest prime gaps
Oh right, I misread the challenge
In which case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ meh
"You can also show off versions with builtin functions if they are interesting. Be creative."
What a clear rule.
That's even worse than banning them
"This version uses builtins, but its the shortest, so it's interesting"
Yeah. Just out of curiosity ... what challenge is this?
10:14 PM
WW quietly modhammers it
Ah yes 2014. That figures.
Yeah, it's a very old challenge
You can tell because GolfScript is still in the lead :p
<2015: Golfscript, 2015-2017: CJam, >2017: Jelly/05AB1E
Wth did someone just upvote it? It is a really bad challenge by today's standards.
10:17 PM
Oh, that was a misclick on my part. Glad you noticed that.
Oh it has a bonus too.
Kinda reminds me of this :p
@ais523 It seems that the answers to the challenge are also printing the primes responsible for the gaps. But if we just want the gap sizes, Husk has 6 bytes: ü≤Ẋ-İp
oh right, Husk would naturally be really good at this
@WheatWizard As if it couldn't get worse :P
10:21 PM
it's the go-to golfing language for infinite sequences
Yeah, Husk is irritatingly good at sequence based challenges
@H.PWiz You can do either, you get a +10 penalty for just the gap zizes.
@RedwolfPrograms Oh please tell me that's a photoshop
It is, yes :p
Yeah. Also to prove ais's earlier point ü≤ is a neat way to get the record breakers
10:22 PM
-4 on a comment‽
It's part of the joke, I edited it
> you may take a string containing the english words for the index of an item in the list
But of course, using sWAPPED tITLE cASE, obviously
The obvious way would be uGY
@RedwolfPrograms It keeps getting better the more I read it :P
I read the entire list of things not to do and did all of them
10:25 PM
@RedwolfPrograms Doubles? Too easy. Why not singles?
What about triples?
the requirement to violate exactly three standard loopholes is interesting
> you may not use [...] any C variant (although C itself is fine)
Idk why, but that got me
I do wonder which 3 loopholes are easiest to violate simultaneously.
This challenge is so complex, "that interpret the challenge literally" may not be super helpful.
Homoglyphs would work well with any two
10:27 PM
whitespace to hide things offscreen is free, you can mix that with pretty much anything (or refuse to use it)
Aw, triple precision floating point doesn't actually exist. Apparently octuple precision does, though...
especially as the challenge is
@WheatWizard Hm, that could make an interesting challenge; a trivial task (e.g. cat) where you must use 3 loopholes.
It is a bit of a meta challenge.
Wait, it actually would be fun. Is there any way it would be allowed?
10:28 PM
one thing that's got me thinking is simply trying to find a language that has pointers, and yet can distinguish a double from a float (the former normally implies statically typed and unboxed, the latter dynamically typed and boxed)
Using a made up language which uses a Cyrillic a instead of an a would violate two
@RedwolfPrograms Why not, if well-specified?
It might be more interesting if the challenge is clearly impossible.
@RedwolfPrograms It's allowed, it just might not be well-received
@RedwolfPrograms Sure they do!
10:28 PM
the "violate n loopholes" challenge could be solved pretty easily by inventing a language for the purpose in which the zero-byte program solves the challenge
The only problem I can think of is the requirements changing when new loopholes are added or voted on
that's one loophole, and you can easily tune how many others it violates by changing the definition of the language
Ok, I think I've got it: "The challenge doesn't say anywhere that I can't make up my own language where <insert homoglyph here> prints 'Hello World', therefore, I win"
What would the best scoring criterion be?
10:30 PM
Pop-con obviously. Got to go with the worst possible.
Ironically, it's probably one of the very few challenges where pop-con would be the best scoring criterion
popcon is at least objective, and actually works well for some challenges
Yeah, true
you can get the disadvantages without the advantages as "my favourite program wins, "
Throw in a bonus.
10:32 PM
(except that this isn't as FGITW-heavy as a popcon)
You could mandate that no two answers can use the same three loopholes
"code golf with a -Infinity bonus for most votes"
"code golf/popcon hybrid: -1 byte bonus for every upvote"
"my favourite program wins, +10 bytes to answers with vowels in the source code"
10:32 PM
(actually I think someone tried something like that once)
Actually I like the no-reusing-loopholes thing, but maybe allow each loophole to be used 3 times
"Whichever answer guessing what programming language I'm thinking of wins"
the "changing your username for a username-dependent puzzle" would be fun, as you could create a username-dependent language to solve the problem
Give an impossible task. You can use 1 loop hole per answer. Each player gets 1 point per shortest answer they have using a certain loophole.
That seems really fun too
10:34 PM
maybe a wincon, but with loopholes rather than languages?
The task would have to be impossible, but would still have to force a few different things (e.g. usernames) to cover all loopholes
but only a few of the loopholes can be used to solve impossible tasks, and they do so via not actually solving them
it's probably better to have a task that is clearly too difficult, rather than impossible
e.g. for the entirety of Wikipedia has several ways to loophole it
and nobody is insane enough to do it legitimately
There are a few you can't cover all at the same time (namely the related ones, or the ones)
It would be decently hard to do the invented language for that one.
For one your interpreter would be quite large.
But kc with a several gb text might be a bit of a toned down version.
it doesn't seem that ridiculous, just download a Wikipedia database dump while compiling the interprer
10:37 PM
TBH a very basic task might do well, as it could lead to some very stupidly funny answers
Someone suggested cat, I think that's a good one
oh, it's probably worth mentioning that for the first 100 MB of a Wikipedia database dump is a long-running golfing contest that you can get cash prizes for
Maybe reverse the input, since some langs' empty programs are cat
The funny though would be the legitimate golf task to download all of wikipedia.
10:38 PM
as long as you beat the existing records
Is that in a particular language?
err, first gigabyte, I think
and yes, x86 or x86_64 Windows or Linux machine code
although, the expected size of the program is so large that bundling an interpreter with the program isn't likely to cost all that much
Ooh, like a jelly interpreter with pre-loaded jelly code?
Given the diversity of the loopholes, maybe an answer chaining could work, where the next answer has to follow a one sentence task specified in the current answer?
I really like that idea, actually
10:40 PM
The lack of specificity could lead to loopholes being used more creatively
That seems quite insane
I don't know how you could have any reasonable scoring criterion
Or most answers
TBF a challenge based on exploiting loopholes should be quite insane
Ah yes pop-con. The scoring criterion for when you can't think of good one.
11 mins ago, by Wheat Wizard
Pop-con obviously. Got to go with the worst possible.
10:42 PM
ah, I didn't misremember the size of the Wikipedia prefix to compress; it was increased recently
I'm kind of doing a similar thing with Brain-flak.
I'm trying to make a language that is just really compressed brain-flak.
I'm taking the grammar for brain-flak programs and pruning branches that produce redundant or stupid programs, then using the contents of a file to create a path through the grammar.
@RedwolfPrograms If you are going to do a loophole-based challenge, you'll have to specify which loopholes are fair game. A lot of them are <5 and twice, or are deleted
But there is also some statistical analysis to make certain operations easier to reach in fewer bits.
Isn't there a requirement that valid loopholes have at least +5 score and twice as many upvotes?
Yeah something like that.
10:46 PM
@RedwolfPrograms Yeah, but in a challenge built around abusing loopholes, abusing that rule wouldn't be out of character
There was at one point a problem of a certain loophole which was right on the edge of that and kept flipping back and forth.
@cairdcoinheringaahing There's a difference between insanity and anarchy :p
"What loophole are you using? Well, I looked on Meta, but decided 'screw the loopholes', and decided to just post this Sandbox proposal as an answer instead"
You might be able to actually construct the liar's paradox with loophole based challenges.
Particularly using the "interpret the challenge too literally" loophole.
@cairdcoinheringaahing Or, to frame it as a loophole, "nowhere in the challenge did it say I wasn't allowed to just post anything I wanted to"
10:49 PM
For example if the challenge were: Print "Hello world!" using exactly one loophole.
Does: print "\"Hello world!\" using exactly one loophole" count as interpreting the challenge to literally?
Which is the simplest code golf challenge that cannot be fully specified in 100 characters or less?
Yeah, looks like it to me
@Adám You know how much we like our objectivity, define "simplest"
@cairdcoinheringaahing Shortest possible spec.
surely it'll be a tie between all the challenges which require 101 characters to fully specify
:55968141 Jelly, 1 byte: ß
(note: this works as a specification of the challenge, in addition to being a solution to it)
@ais523 No.
10:53 PM
@ais523 That wouldn't actually loop forever tho, due to recursion limits no?
I think it's tail-recursive, not sure though
What is the shortest challenge spec in which no one can come up with a valid answer shorter than the spec?
"factor RSA prime shortest wins"
@WheatWizard π
I don't think that is a clear challenge.
10:55 PM
"last digit of π, first wins"
Print π backwards.
Ok limited to code-golf, and challenges that can be solved.
Or, an actually solvable one: "output wikipedia. shortest wins"
I think in order to make that work, the challenge needs to talk about some concept that's common knowledge but not a builtin in anything
VTC as unclear. Wikipedia is constantly changes.
It's not too hard.
10:57 PM
"ζ(s)=0, Re(s)=1/2. Get s or 0 if no s"
"Output a number which cannot be output by a Jelly program less than 999 bytes."
I'm not convinced that's solvable with certainty
You can prove busy beaver numbers correct.
you can solve it probabilistically if you have a sufficiently high-quality source of randomness
"Solve any task requiring code longer than this text."
10:58 PM
but Jelly is Turing-complete so you can't compute busy beaver numbers that are too big for it to produce
Even with the 999byte constraint?
You can prove a that a particular number is the 1000th jelly bb.
It is hard. Really hard, but can be done.
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