The Nineteenth Byte

Razetime

15:12

Also Jelly Balls is pretty nice for understanding shorter programs

It gives explanations for any program that doesn't have an explanation

wouldn't recommend trying to develop in it much

caird coinheringaahing

I've never really liked Jelly Balls tbh

Not quite sure why, just never really thought it's useful/helpful. But if others do, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redwolf Programs

Is there an easy way to type all the non-ASCII characters it uses?

caird coinheringaahing

Adam has a toolbar browser extension, but beyond that not really

Razetime

@RedwolfPrograms github.com/abrudz/lb

caird coinheringaahing

Sep 26 '17 at 20:26, by caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ I hate what Jelly has made me do. I just copy pasted the character W

Razetime

15:17

I'll make a mac keyboard layout for husk if I'm not feeling lazy

Redwolf Programs

Maybe I'll just memorize all the codepoints and Ctrl+Shift+U them...seems easier :p

caird coinheringaahing

shudders

Razetime

gasps

So Jelly has already been language of the month, right?

caird coinheringaahing

It's too popular for LotM

Razetime

Ah

Even if I did have an excuse for spamming Jelly answers, there's probably one from Jonathan Allan on every single question

caird coinheringaahing

15:19

There are at least 10 users with >100 Jelly answers

Razetime

or you

or Dennis idk

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, it's difficult to find questions without existing Jelly answers

Razetime

So the best way to do it is answer unanswered question

easy peasy

caird coinheringaahing

Not the best language to be using for long-time unanswered questions :P

Razetime

Or politely ask everyone from JHT to stay away from a newly asked question

caird coinheringaahing

15:22

What's the site policy on challenges that don't require code? e.g. "Write a mathematical function that does <insert thing here>" with an objective scoring criteria

Redwolf Programs

If you do atomic-code-golf, you can trick people into doing that, but on its own you can't

There was a meta post a few months ago about that exact question IIRC

caird coinheringaahing

We've had code free challenges before ((-a)*(-a) = a*a)

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, but I think that was atomic code golf. It's still sort of code.

Razetime

28

A: Is "Proof-Golf for proofs in general" on-topic?

Yes, as long as it is well-specified For proof-golf, we validate the prove by mentally following it. For compass and straightedge, this means that a reader should be able to come out with the same solution given the same set of steps. Furthermore, each of the possible steps should have a well-sp...

caird coinheringaahing

@Razetime Does Husk have a builtin for "convert to base 10"?

Redwolf Programs

15:28

I believe this is the meta post I was thinking of: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10287/…

Razetime

@cairdcoinheringaahing B should be the one

B16 converts from base 16 to base 10

given a list of numbers

caird coinheringaahing

So what's B10 doing in this program?

Wait, I meant "convert from base 10"

Razetime

That's d

caird coinheringaahing

Ah, I thought it existed :P

Was very surprised that Husk didn't have a "convert from base 10" builtin

Razetime

d converts from and to base 10

caird coinheringaahing

15:33

Yay, I love it when both of my recent Jelly answers get downvoted with no comment ಠ_ಠ

Razetime

some people just hate golfing langs

I just got used to random downvotes at this point

caird coinheringaahing

I'm used to them, but they're still irritating

I stand by the principle of "If you can't stand behind your reason for voting enough to explain why, maybe you shouldn't've voted that way"

Razetime

hard to tell that to anonymous voters innit

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, but in my experience most drive by voters will stick to their vote no matter what you say

Redwolf Programs

Also annoying is when a trivial answer in a BF derivative gets dozens or even hundreds of votes because it "looks compilcated" or "has a funny name" or something

e.g., the dozens of "upvoting because it's ArnoldC" comments

caird coinheringaahing

15:39

At least they're willing to say why they voted

Razetime

ah thatkinda annoying

but some challenges are enuinely hard for bf derivatives

so I guess thats fairer

Redwolf Programs

JS is weird. There's an argument you can pass to this function that makes it return true: f = (n) => (typeof n == "object" && n > 8 && n++ < 4 && typeof n == "number")

(If anyone can get the answer in under an hour, 50 rep bounty on any answer they choose)

John Dvorak

15:59

In two hours I should be able to answer it in an hour.

Redwolf Programs

Maybe I'll do another one later then, I've got multiple

caird coinheringaahing

summons Shaggy and Arnauld

Redwolf Programs

Javascript has plenty of weirdness to go around

dzaima

@RedwolfPrograms spoiler

Redwolf Programs

Close, only works if a is defined though.

I think that counts though

dzaima

16:07

@RedwolfPrograms rather that it isn't defined, and is run in non-strict mode

Redwolf Programs

Interesting unintended solution. I'll award the bounty at the end of the hour.

*start

dzaima

@RedwolfPrograms no need for a bounty, i don't use SE

Redwolf Programs

Ah, ok

dzaima

(this works, but only once. i'm guessing it's possible to get a reusable solution with a proper object)

Redwolf Programs

My intended solution was much more complicated, mostly just because I wanted to avoid global variables

intended solution

dzaima

16:11

this works and is repeatable

Redwolf Programs

Ah, that's a good idea. Much simpler than what I did.

dzaima

obvious golfs (now that i looked at the intended solution)

(i couldn't remember how valueOf was called, but toString works anyways because JS ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Redwolf Programs

Not sure why inequality operators would ever call string related methods tbh

dzaima

@RedwolfPrograms iirc it's that valueOf falls back to toString

Redwolf Programs

Interesting, o = {}, !(o < "[") && o < "[" is true because of that

dzaima

16:18

@RedwolfPrograms that's false

Redwolf Programs

Oh, the second [ should be a ]

Sorry about that

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

How many times do I have to call you? Define a function \$f:\mathbb{N}\to\mathbb{N}\$ such that \$f^\alpha(n) = n^\alpha\$, where \$f^\alpha\$ denotes composition with itself \$\alpha\$ times. For example, \$f^1(n) = f(n), f^2(n) = f(f(n)), f^3(n) = f(f(f(n)))\$ etc. Therefore, the function you d...

caird coinheringaahing

Jeez NSP's getting quick

dzaima

is there more to golf from that? i've got this

Redwolf Programs

Seems optimal.

I wish there was a way to get rid of those parentheses around the object literal, but the only way I can find just adds a byte

Neil

16:52

heh, I made a tongue-in-cheek answer on an HNQ, and that Q made the SO interesting questions blog, so I've got 28 upvotes without trying

New Main Posts

0

Q: We're all unique in our own way

This is an answer-chaining challenge where every part of your answer should aim to be unique from every other answer. This question will work in the following way: I will post the first answer. The next answer will stem from that, and all other answers will originate from it. In this answer I wi...

Redwolf Programs

18:18

@cairdcoinheringaahing Do you know any reason review stalker would be redirecting to a different site? It's giving me worldbuilding review tasks.

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms If you've visited a sites review queues it adds those in

Redwolf Programs

Is there a way to get rid of a site from it?

caird coinheringaahing

Log out, visit the queues for the site you want to remove, then go back to PPCG and log back in

Redwolf Programs

I just deleted and reinstalled it, seems faster :p

Lyxal

22:13

Morning everyone!

caird coinheringaahing

Evening :P

Lyxal

Did you see the list of bytes I chose?

caird coinheringaahing

I did

Is there any relevance to them or were they random?

Lyxal

Did you find it funny?

caird coinheringaahing

Oh, I just saw that :/

What;s the 15?

Lyxal

22:15

Number 15 burger king foot lettuce

caird coinheringaahing

...ok

It was a clever way of referencing that meme :P

Lyxal

reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/7uwvaq/…

caird coinheringaahing

I think the only languages that can work with those bytes are going to be ones where the characters don't mean anything

E and * are the only printable characters when ASCII encoded

The bytes are D)”Ç¦®¤Œ in Jelly

@cairdcoinheringaahing Make that E*¡Ð©µ¥Þ because Jelly uses 1-indexing and I always forget that

HyperNeutrino

22:46

It's the latter. lol

I'm trying Jelly too because it's very tolerant of random meaningless things being spammed in without breaking anything

caird coinheringaahing

Pretty sure its impossible in Jelly

HyperNeutrino

unfortunately both 0 and 1 are taken, as those are relatively easy to output since 0 is the default and we can force 1 with *

caird coinheringaahing

¡Ð©µ¥Þ are all quicks and E only outputs 0 and 1, meaning * can only output 0 and 1

HyperNeutrino

i found a way to get it to output a list, but that's not helpful

since we have no way to turn that into a number other than E which again, only can give 0 and 1.

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah :/

HyperNeutrino

22:50

and the copy quick is literally useless here

wait, can we find a way to output with exit code...

caird coinheringaahing

© doesn't do anything, Þ, µ and ¥ cannot change the values in a list and ¡ and Ð¡ can't yield anything other than changes to 0 and 1 with the two atoms

@HyperNeutrino Nope, Jelly's exit codes are either 0 or 1

HyperNeutrino

oh. bruh, well there goes that

all errors get sent to code 1? that's odd but unfortunate

caird coinheringaahing

05AB1E might work

@HyperNeutrino It's a Python thing IIRC

HyperNeutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh, does seem to be. huh, never actually noticed that

The 05AB1E characters are E*ǝтεθγΣ

not sure what any of them mean, though

caird coinheringaahing

Me neither :/

E*ǝтεθγΣ errors by itself though

HyperNeutrino

22:57

these don't seem like they'd work.

E requires input

ε is each and requires a closing }

this definitely isn't correct

caird coinheringaahing

Might see if any of my languages work

Lyxal

Lol I think I've got a language where it can work

But I'm not telling you what it is

HyperNeutrino

did you have something in mind or did you just do it cuz 69 420 funny numbers lol

Lyxal

Yes

Funny numbers

HyperNeutrino

nice :+1:

Lyxal

23:06

Hehe

caird coinheringaahing

Ugh, I keep thinking you two are the same person

Lyxal

Lol

HyperNeutrino

small icons be like that

theoretically someone could just give the only available byte as 0 and wouldn't that just basically end the challenge?

caird coinheringaahing

Lenguage

Lyxal

Unary

HyperNeutrino

23:08

oh. lol

Lyxal

(if that's what the other one is called)

caird coinheringaahing

So long as no one uses them before someone posts the "the only byte you can use is 0" answer

HyperNeutrino

mhm

oh, the time limit is 14 days this time. cool

Lyxal

But there'd exist some other language

Probably

I actually don't know

caird coinheringaahing

Probably

HyperNeutrino

23:10

quick, time to start making a bunch of arbitrary languages that just do arbitrary things given any random bytes so you can just randomly obtain some number :P

Lyxal

But that's been explicitly banned

caird coinheringaahing

> You may use any language that wasn't specifically invented to answer this challenge

I'm 14 parallel universes ahead of you HN :P

HyperNeutrino

(was mostly joking) also is there an official policy on language postdating answer-chaining? because I know we removed [non-competing] and just allowed new languages on old challenges as long as it wasn't like MetaGolfScript

Lyxal

And I had something to do with that lol

@HyperNeutrino ... - _- you win this time

caird coinheringaahing

@HyperNeutrino Using a language made specifically after the challenge has posted, in order to do that specific that is a loophole isn't it?

HyperNeutrino

23:12

Uh. sorry, that wasn't clear. I don't mean a language specifically designed for a challenge, but like in general, if a language is made after a challenge, should it be allowed in answer chaining

caird coinheringaahing

IMO yes, so long as it wasn't specifically aimed to answer it

Not sure about site policy

HyperNeutrino

example: OEIS answer chaining, a lot of problems came from not having more Python versions to work with, so if I made a language (or a bunch of languages) that transpiled into python in some way, how would that work, or even if someone else made languages without seeing the challenge and I just took advantage of the newly existing languages

I think a single rule might not be enough to cover everything and really it's mostly common sense as to what is in good faith of a challenge and what's just exploiting loopholes and taking the fun away

caird coinheringaahing

The problem of course being that "Use some common sense, of course that's exploiting a loophole, don't be an arse" isn't how site policy usually goes :P

Lyxal

Perhaps "only languages that existed before this challenge are allowed"

And then, you'd have to say "before this was sandboxed" to avoid challenge sniping

HyperNeutrino

yeah, definitely :P I think the rules here make sense, mostly. like it's pretty easy to tell if a language was made specifically to just have random byte sets pass without error, or if it's a legit language that just happens to be new

caird coinheringaahing

23:16

TBH I'd be fine with the site rules being "Here is a list of things we've decided aren't funny. When posting an answer, ask yourself, is this on the list? If there's any chance the answer isn't no, don't post it"

None of my languages work btw :/

Lyxal

Lol

caird coinheringaahing

The problem is that E isn't a common command, and * is almost always multiply, which usually works on the 0s on the stack :/

Lyxal

Well everyone has 14 days to find a language

HyperNeutrino

* can almost always be assumed to be multiplication or exponentiation, neither of which help with 0 and 1 being the only two available things

caird coinheringaahing

I think custom code pages is the way to go

Lyxal

23:19

Definitely

If only there were a language which didn't treat letters as commands. Shoulda made that while it was still sandboxed lol.

(the language that is)

caird coinheringaahing

You need a permissive language with either a custom code page, or where E has some meaning

Lyxal

I've got a language where it's easy to solve

caird coinheringaahing

Husk's commands are E*¤‰←¦↓≥ BTW

Lyxal

But it ain't my turn so I can't use it

caird coinheringaahing

Tell us in 13 days then :P

Lyxal

23:23

Okey doke

I'll drop a hint in 7 days if it isn't found by then

caird coinheringaahing

> A-L are numbers

That sounds promising

Lyxal

Huh, that's not what I was thinking about but sure

Transcript for