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Cows quack
Cows quack
6:01 PM
mine has a "delete" key that performs backspace
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@Cowsquack I think I've got a detailed analysis of the "historical reasons" for that...
 
Cows quack
Cows quack
oh yeah, you're the retrocomputing guy
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
I can't find it, so I'll summarise it.
Basically, 0x7f is DELETE in basically every character set.
When sent along a wire, it rubbed out the previous character.
This was because, on punch cards, 0x00 was NULL and 0x7f was DELETE and when you made a mistake you punched out all of the holes.
0x7f had the same effect, but on a wire.
I don't remember which protocol.
Anyway, the key was labelled DELETE sometimes.
However, typewriters had space and backspace, so systems inheriting that naming convention used the label Backspace.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
So technically bkspc = delete?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
ASCII needed Delete for compatibility reasons.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
6:07 PM
And the windows' Del is actually not a delete?
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
Any ideas on how to find the standard part about javascript: links? Google strips special characters even when in quotes, and link with embedded javascript, javascript link protocol and variations all fail miserably
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
But when reading from punchcards, Delete meant "ignore this".
@J.Sallé Patience... I'm around half-way I think.
@NieDzejkob Use duckduckgo.com
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Oh okay, I thought you were done :p
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
@wizzwizz4 I did. Then I tried google.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@NieDzejkob I think it's your browser.
Use www-browser or curl.
Delete meant "ignore this".
So ASCII used the control character "Backspace" to replicate the Typewriter Backspace.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
6:10 PM
and backspace meant "go back a character on the screen or printer"
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
Yes.
Teletypes fit somewhere near this, so when you sent Backspace to them it would do a typewriter backspace.
That's why we have ` and ^ in ASCII.
They're for accents with backspacing.
Anyway, Macs inherited from the DELETE is backspace line, but picked up ASCII because it was standard.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
why is there no inverted ^?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
You mean v?
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
yeah
v the letter won't do as an accent
 
New Main Posts
New Main Posts
0
Q: Find arsonist's lullaby

Mr. XcoderImagine an arsonist walking around the town and picking its victims according to a very specific pattern. Let's say the town is an N × N matrix, where N is an integer higher than or equal to 2. The arsonist starts from the upper-left corner and successively sets the house M spots in front of them...

code-golf array-manipulation matrix
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
6:12 PM
It's probably because ASCII was designed for the languages of America.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
and america uses ^?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
You occasionally needed to type cafe' but Spanish was the limit.
Actually, I think it was only designed for English.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
also, did you try to search for "javascript:" and got any meaningful results?
because I tried it in 3 different browsers, even on mobile. currently trying to figure out how to read the thing curl vomits out
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@NieDzejkob Spain does I think.
And America is partially owned by the Spanish.
Wait, that's the 1500s. Computers weren't around then.
Never mind.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
on curl, first result: javascript.com
utterly useless
 
Pavel
Pavel
6:16 PM
Spanish uses ' accents, ~ tildes, and ¨ diaresis
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
other queries - link method and embed tag
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
Oh yeah... Google and DuckDuckGo both ignore special characters.
Search for javascript protocol.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@NieDzejkob afaik the only language that uses ^ in the americas is Portuguese
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
I literally just now looked at my keyboard and realized that it actually does have a "Delete" key. I've always thought of it as "Backspace" because I grew up on Windows keyboards. That this keyboard has no key (or even a shortcut) for deleting the character in front of the cursor makes me real sad.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
And we use it only on a, e and o to form â, ê, ô
 
Adám
Adám
6:19 PM
Announcement: APL Cultivation in 10 mins.
@J.Sallé Quebecois.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@Adám ah, yes, there's the French speaking countries as well. I hate French >.>
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
@wizzwizz4 most of this stuff talks about window.location.protocol. Can't find the actual standard document, even after adding "standard". It gave me keyword bookmarklet, though
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
France's longest shared border is with Brazil
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
... which still does not give any results
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
Oh yeah. Since DEL stopped beingn used as a rubout character, since people stopped using write-once media where mistakes would be that short, it got picked up as a control character to delete in front of the cursor. The meaning we know and love today.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
6:27 PM
@NathanMerrill lulwut
I think it's a joke but I don't get it >.>
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@NathanMerrill Huh what? Is this one of those tricky it-depends-on-your-measuring-stick things?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
no, French Guiana isn't it's own country: It really is France
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
It's in English, sorry.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
and it borders Brazil
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
6:29 PM
The UK's longest shared border is with ROI.
If NI is UK, FG is FR.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
@wizzwizz4 well, that's certainly some sorcery
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
Finding it, it itself, or that I had it open in a tab and just opened it again.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@NathanMerrill I know that, but its border is not nearly as big as France-Germany, is it?
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
That's incredible. France borders Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Luxembourg, and Belgium, and Brazil and Suriname via French Guiana, but most of its border is with the English Channel and Mediterranean Sea.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@J.Sallé Spain is actually it's second largest.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
6:33 PM
@J.Sallé That actually surprised me too when I actually looked at a map. I'll bet we tend to remember it as bigger because of the Maginot Line in WWI.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@NathanMerrill I'm looking at google maps and indeed, it could be that the Guiana border is that large
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@El'endiaStarman in any 4X game, they'd be constantly at war due to border tensions :)
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@El'endiaStarman Yeah, that might be it
@NathanMerrill Well, Brazil borders 10 other countries. We'd probably be at war too?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
lol yeah
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
The USA is the opposite in that regard. Two borders (even counting overseas territories) and yet, at war a lot anyway.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
6:35 PM
just looked it up: China borders the most, at 14
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Not surprising
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@NathanMerrill I would have guessed Russia. Huh.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
Russia is right behind at 13.
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
@wizzwizz4 finding it / tbh I expected something more, some loophole - that's why I was looking for the standards itself
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
northern eurasia just doesn't have as many countries
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
6:37 PM
Most of Russia borders the arctic seas, though
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
despite the fact that russia is so massive
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
Google says Russia has 14.
 
Adám
Adám
@El'endiaStarman Can you grant write access to this user in here?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
oooh, maybe it changed?
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
> Along the 20,139-kilometer land frontier, Russia has boundaries with 14 countries: Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland (via the Kaliningrad Oblast), Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, the People's Republic of China and North Korea.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
6:37 PM
or my article is wrong
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@Adám Sure, just a sec.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@NieDzejkob Standards?! What standards?
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@Adám Should be good now.
 
Adám
Adám
@El'endiaStarman Thanks!
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
ok...so the difference here is Poland
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
6:41 PM
@wizzwizz4 like, idk, w3c must have some documents on that
even a section
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
ah, I see. There's this territory called Kaliningrad Oblast that borders poland
it's like the French Guiana situation
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@NathanMerrill weird that they counted Latvia Lithuania but not Poland
 
NieDzejkob
NieDzejkob
but feel free to drop this
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@NieDzejkob It was never standardised afaik.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@J.Sallé you mean lithuania?
lol yeah
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
6:43 PM
Hah I never know which country is which on that part of the world, I just know there's Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
hey, neither do I. I'm just looking at a map here :)
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Same
 
ngn
ngn
@J.Sallé they are sorted in alphabetical order north-to-south
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
I know where UK, France, Germany, Belgium, Russia, China, Japan, Antarctica, Australasia, Eurasia, North America and South America are. I know nothing else.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
not the US?
 
ngn
ngn
6:53 PM
@wizzwizz4 where's "Australasia"?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@ngn It's a continent with a big island and some small ones. It includes Australia, NZ and some other places.
@NathanMerrill I know it's the south half of NA and also Canada, but I don't know where the dividing lines are.
TBH I also don't know the dividing line for NI / ROI, so I should also cross off UK.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
I mean...nobody knows the exact coordinates where countries divide.
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@wizzwizz4 I know that as Oceania
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@J.Sallé Hmm... I wonder why the difference.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
I've heard both.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
7:09 PM
@NathanMerrill Do states count as countries?
I think there are pretty well-defined borders in most cases, though.
 
Poke
Poke
oh god the flavor text is so punny
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
I'd be very interested to see a Jelly solution (or, at this point, any golflang solution) to my latest challenge (arsonist's lullaby)
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
7:24 PM
I might be able to cook up a V solution
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
That sounds interesting :) Good luck 😉
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
that's pretty common for DJ :P
what you think would be the greatest challenge of your life here is just like "add two numbers" for DJ
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Yeah in this particular case I don’t think it’s that challenging, but it is somewhat harder to golf than to solve :P
 
ngn
ngn
@wizzwizz4 technically, even if you wanted to, you couldn't possibly commit a crime in such a place because it's not part of any jurisdiction - there are no laws to break
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
I think DJ once said that V is bad with numbers
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
7:31 PM
In V, however... I don’t know how stuff is happening
I recall that a long time ago (like a year ago or so) I tried to learn V and solve a basic number challenge. I CMD+F’ed its wiki pages and didn’t find any built-in primality test — I just gave up :P
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
hah, good luck finding a built-in to add two numbers
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@NathanMerrill Except the 38th Parallel
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@Mr.Xcoder I don't think there is a primality test yet. I could try making one though
@EriktheOutgolfer I'm sure I've said that many times
 
H.PWiz
H.PWiz
@DJMcMayhem Perhaps regex will be shortest
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
@DJMcMayhem Regarding your comment on Main — I am not sure if that’s reasonable. I will, though, change the spec and allow it. I don’t want to ruin your potential V solution :))
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
7:44 PM
doesn't seem very reasonable to me...
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@Mr.Xcoder Oh, don't worry about that, I haven't started yet.
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
(also, DJ will most probably still find a way around :P)
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Instead, can we assume there are enough spaces that everything lines up in the case of multi-digit numbers?
For example, something like this: 
3  2  3  2  7
3  1  4  1  6
2  11 3  1  1
4  4  3  2  4
1  1  1  1  1
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Done, I’ve addressed your concerns
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
that seems more reasonable to me imho
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
7:46 PM
@DJMcMayhem sure.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Seems like I've stumbled onto my first unpopular challenge with that alphabet star in the sandbox.
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
don't worry; good thing you sandboxed it
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
True enough
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
btw it has 6 votes total on it, it's not unpopular, but rather just not generally welcome
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Hah, that's a fair point. It is rather popular when you put it that way.
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
8:09 PM
Lol, that’s like the ideal challenge for Charcoal
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
8:51 PM
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
wow only <7 times longer than the output
but, eh, it's just a leftover, right?
 
dzaima
dzaima
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
It’s 100% generated using copy.sh
Badly ninja’d beause of mobile + very slow internet :|
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
huh, what plagiarism
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Not quite plagiarism per se, but lazy
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
8:56 PM
but they don't mention copy.sh anywhere
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
That sounds so punny-ish in this context :P copied from copy.sh
 
Poke
Poke
maybe copy.sh wasn't used
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
confirmedly it was used (just edited in)
 
Poke
Poke
yeah but maybe it wasn't
 
flawr
flawr
user image
8
And guess who wrote the bottom one
 
Poke
Poke
9:01 PM
jon
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
"MANNING"?
 
Poke
Poke
skeet
 
flawr
flawr
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
or what Poke just said
 
Poke
Poke
maybe the bottom one is for c# 6.0 and they made a lot of changes in 7.0
:]?
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
9:02 PM
then C# 7.0 is a misnomer...
 
Poke
Poke
huh?
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
if there were so many changes, one may as well consider it as a new language
an example of major differences is Python 2 vs. Python 3, but, well, they have almost the same length of docs
 
flawr
flawr
@EriktheOutgolfer is there another difference than print "" -> print("")?
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Yes.
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
lots of 'em
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
9:06 PM
String encoding is different, and more functions return generators/listexpressions rather than lists
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
e.g. starred notation
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Oh yeah, splat is another big one too
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
The removal of `...` in favor of repr()
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
input too (input is what used to be raw_input, lambda x='':eval(input(x)) is what used to be input)
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Also, print changed more than just print "" -> print(""). It's a fully fledged (and super useful) function: 
>>> print(*range(10), sep=", ")
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
>>>
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
9:08 PM
Ah yeah, sep and end
Oh, and f-strings (>=3.6)
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@EriktheOutgolfer That's probably one of the biggest. Who thought blindly evaling all user input was a good idea?
Integer division is another
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
you mean float-by-default division
 
flawr
flawr
I'll have to get a python 3 book.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Yes
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
@flawr docs.python.org/3 may help
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
9:12 PM
Ah, differences between python 2 and 3, I see.
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
The removal of xrange(), fixing the loop-variable leaks into the global namespace in Py3 and other generator-related stuff are other major differences imo.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
^ That one is the biggest thorn in my side.
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
or even the most important of all: True = False, of course, doesn't work in Python 3
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I keep having to do list(...) over and over again.
 
H.PWiz
H.PWiz
@EriktheOutgolfer You may want to update the links on the answer that you just editted
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
9:15 PM
@Zacharý Which?
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
@H.PWiz more like report the bug to Dennis
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
@DJMcMayhem I guess generator-related stuff
 
H.PWiz
H.PWiz
Oh, didn't realise it was supposed to be backwards compatible
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Yeah, generator related stuff
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
well, Dennis likes to make his stuff backwards-compatible, and that's important for a website
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
9:17 PM
Even if it's not golfing, I still use list(...) every other line.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
You can't deny that it's an improvement for range at least
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Eh, must just be my golfing and bad (APL-ish/functional/semi-function/whatever) codestyle, because I want to see what the stuff I do to a range object looks like
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
9:36 PM
@DJMcMayhem well, it is a scripting language
@flawr 0/10 waste of money
@Zacharý ... you're not supposed to
 
flawr
flawr
didn't say anything about spending money :P
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
generators are a massive performance improvement
if you have to list every other line you're doing something very wrong
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
@ASCII-only I mean for a quick thing that I don't care that much about (like MY).
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
@Zacharý just get used to them. once you do, if anything, they're better than lists...
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
MY was mostly me fooling around.
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
9:38 PM
@Zacharý exactly >_>
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Oh, one thing that they removed/moved: reduce
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
@Zacharý functools.reduce
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I put "/move"
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
@Zacharý from functools import reduce
done
@AdmBorkBork The second is that Oni editor is only editor
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I only use list every other line when A) using a REPL B) I just got done doing some APL (golfing or student competition) C) Golfing (as the things I solve in python usually only have one line, even though I don't really do Python on PPCG)
Or D) I forget that I don't need to list each step of an algorithm
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
9:44 PM
@Zacharý :| but you said you always have to list every other line?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I was exaggerating, and that would still be every other line, if you start out with using list :P
 
mbomb007
mbomb007
@Bubbler There are too many kirbies! :O
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
@mbomb007 2 is too many?
 
mbomb007
mbomb007
Yeah. Go ahead. Tell me to "suck it up" LOL
Because Kirby...
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
10:01 PM
That joke was ... the BOMB.
 
ASCII-only
ASCII-only
:| i should really do something useful
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I probably should be studying getting used to the time limit for the AP Physics C: Mechanics test on Monday, but eh, I have 2 class basically free periods where I can do that.
 
Erik the Outgolfer
Erik the Outgolfer
s/~/-
 
Magic Octopus Urn
Magic Octopus Urn
10:36 PM
@flawr hah... "depth".
 
New Main Posts
New Main Posts
11:01 PM
0
Q: The 21 Hairstyles of the Apocalypse

Magic Octopus UrnThe 21 Hairstyles of the Apocalypse Given a a list of numbers between 1 and 21 (or 0 and 20) output a "stitched together" drawing of the following faces (see rules for stitching information): ___ ,,, ooo === +++ ### -*~*- ...

code-golf ascii-art
 
New Meta Posts
New Meta Posts
11:31 PM
0
Q: "Unanswered in a Language I want to Understand" C&R Challenge Thread

Magic Octopus UrnI want to suggest an idea for a non-conventional non-meta post. Can I make a well thought out thread where, as answers, people will post links to questions and name a language? I want a thread for "cops" the people who will respond to the "robbers" who will be asking for people to implement quest...

discussion
 
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