The Nineteenth Byte

@wizzwizz4 how have you done that? I can't seem to make a=5; console.log(a+"") log something not 5 (unless you mean to make a.toString() not 5 in which case it's easy but I wouldn't call that a bad thing)

wizzwizz4

@dzaima Make toString mutate.

totallyhuman

1:15 PM

I should not be allowed to do anything even remotely important on mobile.

user202729

@totallyhuman "to do anything"?

totallyhuman

Argh.

Still on mobile. :P

dzaima

@wizzwizz4 I wouldn't say that toString being modifiable is bad as sometimes there could be legitimate reasons to add functions to the Number prototype and IMO it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily block toString from being modifiable

wizzwizz4

> I should be allowed to not do anything.

@dzaima Then make a subclass.

totallyhuman

@mods Can I get the bounty here cancelled?

user202729

1:18 PM

@dzaima People who modify toString (for such purposes) are bad. ~~The language is not.~~

wizzwizz4

@totallyhuman ...

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 but you can't make a literals automatically convert to subclass...

totallyhuman

You didn't see anything. :P

wizzwizz4

@ASCII-only ... That's no excuse!

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 :|

> u/20260

dzaima

1:22 PM

@wizzwizz4 I agree that it's bad code design but the alternative is ugly code too :p

Dennis

@totallyhuman Done. It's pure coincidence that I saw your chat message though. Flags are more effective.

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 why do you think polyfills even exist

@ASCII-only you English very well

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Knightmare in 1024 bytes of JavaScript king-of-the-hill javascript grid board-game Board The board is a 16x16 grid of squares. It does not wrap, so the outer edges are an impassable boundary. Pieces Each piece is like a Chess knight, and will be referred to as a knight. It moves to a squar...

ASCII-only

1:38 PM

@NewSandboxedPosts 0/10 board is not 32x32 @feersum

wizzwizz4

@ASCII-only To update the language in-place.

I'm not saying that these things aren't necessary. I'm saying that they shouldn't be there.

And their presence makes JavaScript a bad language.

trichoplax

@ASCII-only Open to change... What's the thinking here?

ASCII-only

@trichoplax 16x16 is only 256 cells :P

wizzwizz4

@trichoplax Bigger board is better.

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 then write a language that runs exactly the same for 10 years straight

wizzwizz4

1:39 PM

Also, your image is only 8x8.

@ASCII-only Ok, but nobody's going to use it.

trichoplax

@wizzwizz4 That's just to explain chess knight moves. If it's confusing I may have to add a full board image too, once I've settled on which numbers to use

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 yeah y'see, there's the problem. If people use it then they'll want new features. plus JS was first written in 10 days so it had to be improved a lot

wizzwizz4

@trichoplax It's not very confusing, but perhaps you could add a fade effect to the edge.

@ASCII-only That would explain null is an object and that sort of thing.

Why can't we all agree to do a Python 2 -> 3 transition?

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 hmm?

because Python 3 is bad for golfing. obviously.

trichoplax

@ASCII-only I want a board big enough to prevent brute forcing, but small enough to force stepping on the same square multiple times. A huge board would require a huge number of turns to avoid the knights simply skipping from zero cost square to zero cost square

ASCII-only

1:42 PM

@wizzwizz4 you're asking the wrong people here :P

wizzwizz4

@ASCII-only I gathered.

Python 3 is not that hard for golfing, if you set up the environment initially.

trichoplax

Actually, the number of pieces helps force stepping on non-zero cost squares. Maybe I can afford a bigger board after all

feersum

@ASCII-only No WASM? Lame.

wizzwizz4

@feersum Did you reply to the wrong post?

feersum

@wizzwizz4 No.

trichoplax

1:44 PM

No it's a comment on my KotH only using JS

ASCII-only

@trichoplax hmm. I guess you mean something more like: small enough so multiple pieces on the same square isn't a rare occurrence?

feersum

I'm wondering if @ASCII-only pinged the wrong person though.

trichoplax

@ASCII-only No, I don't need multiple pieces on the same square at the same time, just running out of zero cost squares to hop to

ASCII-only

@feersum >_> yes sorry

Dennis

@NewSandboxedPosts 1024 bytes of JavaScript is always a nightmare.

wizzwizz4

1:45 PM

@trichoplax Make the board 256 by 256 and have 65536 players.

ASCII-only

@trichoplax yeah in that case a 32x32 board will on average cost 16 by the end of a game

@wizzwizz4 good luck getting 65536 entries

trichoplax

@wizzwizz4 Sounds good. You can run the tournaments :P

wizzwizz4

@trichoplax Ok. I'll see whether I can get some timesharing at the Met Office.

trichoplax

@ASCII-only What makes you happy to stop at 32x32?

ASCII-only

@trichoplax calculate 32x32 :P

wizzwizz4

1:47 PM

1024. 1KiB?

ASCII-only

Offtopic: We really should cleanup sandbox sometime

user202729

@ASCII-only How?

ASCII-only

@wizzwizz4 guess the move limit. and the code size limit :P

wizzwizz4

@ASCII-only We should get some decomposing bacteria.

trichoplax

Oh I see. 1024 bytes, 1024 squares

I'm not even settled on it being 1024 bytes yet though...

wizzwizz4

1:47 PM

@ASCII-only *A grin spreads across wizzwizz4's face.* That's brilliant!

user202729

Writing and polishing challenges are not exactly the most interesting things to do.

Dennis

@ASCII-only What do you mean by clean up?

ASCII-only

@trichoplax yeah that's a good point. but i'd say 4kb at the very max

@Dennis remove all the unfeasible questions

trichoplax

But I've put a lot of time into writing my unfeasible questions

ASCII-only

i mean things like this

Dennis

1:49 PM

@ASCII-only As long as nobody edits them in the process, fine. It's much easier to pretend that everything after page 5 doesn't exist though.

wizzwizz4

@ASCII-only Ctrl + A → Ctrl + X → Code Review →Ctrl + V.

ASCII-only

i don't think they can really be turned into an interesting challenges

@wizzwizz4 :O this is a very smart idea

wizzwizz4

If we do it directly on the database level, they won't notice!

feersum

We can't clean up the sandbox! How will SE load test their server?

10

wizzwizz4

@feersum Argument between Marky and Chatgoat sans rate limiting?

Dennis

2:01 PM

As long as nobody makes a leaderboard snippet for the sandbox, we'll be fine.

These are terribly inefficient. We should come up with a better way.

wizzwizz4

@Dennis SEDE?

Dennis

Can you query SEDE with JavaScript from another page?

wizzwizz4

@Dennis CORS would prevent that, wouldn't it?

And there'd be the time lag.

You could hijack search results... but you couldn't because CORS.

Yes you could; you could display an <iframe>. Would you be able to eject CSS into the <iframe>?

Dennis

Of course not.

wizzwizz4

We could ask for a custom... oh, wait.

Dennis

2:12 PM

And most of SE blatantly refuses to even display in an iframe.

wizzwizz4

@Dennis Ah, yes, I remember having that problem when using SE as a demo site.

Had to use boring ol' example.com instead.

CMG: Guess the language!

Post an extract from documentation, and the rest of us will have to work out which language it applies to.

No exact text searching allowed.

Example:

> Friendship is not transitive (a friend of your friend is not your friend)
> Friendship is not inherited (your friend's children are not your friends)

feersum

C++

user202729

C++?

wizzwizz4

That was an easy one.

@feersum You win! Your turn.

Dennis

> This page is an overview of the documentation included with your Rust install.

wizzwizz4

2:17 PM

@Dennis Rust.

Is that a trick?

user202729

@wizzwizz4 Hm...

feersum

I've got something in mind, trying to find it...

user202729

"included with your Rust install"...?

Dennis

@wizzwizz4 Correct! How did you figure it out so quickly?

wizzwizz4

@Dennis Erm...

user202729

2:19 PM

@wizzwizz4 So it's not.

Erik the Outgolfer

> meaning brains (culinary) in Spanish

good luck with that

Dennis

Ahem.

user202729

@EriktheOutgolfer Is it practical?

feersum

> Use of the O command is subject to two restrictions. First, if
an O command is stored in a Q-register as part of a command
string which is to be executed by an M command, the tag
referenced by the O command must reside in the same Q-register.

Erik the Outgolfer

@user202729 it, uh, depends on what type of programmer you are

Dennis

2:22 PM

It really doesn't.

> A comma-separated list of literals forms a list literal.

Erik the Outgolfer

hrrrmph, that's very, very hard...

user202729

@Dennis Jelly?

Dennis

Yep.

Erik the Outgolfer

oh how did you notice it's like impossible

user202729

I almost answered Python but remember it's tuple...

wizzwizz4

2:25 PM

@feersum WebAssembly?

I doubt it, but...

feersum

Nope.

user202729

> A tilde (~) as the last character in the line still indicates a continuation line, but not a continuation of the comment.

~~Hopefully not too many duplicates.~~ No problem, Google get it correct.

feersum

@feersum I'll add another clue:

> EY Same as the Y command, but its action is always
permitted regardless of the value of the Yank
Protection bit in the ED flag. Remember that Yank
DESTROYS the current buffer; there's no way to get it
back!

Leaky Nun

2:42 PM

Vim?

ATaco

I was trying to find a snippet of BYOND's docs that looks unrecognizable, but it's all pretty tame.

feersum

@LeakyNun Getting warmer...

wizzwizz4

@feersum Emacs.

ATaco

V..?

feersum

@wizzwizz4 Even warmer!

wizzwizz4

2:44 PM

@feersum GNU Emacs!

feersum

Not.

ATaco

> For each character c of the line (including the trailing linefeed), the code point of c is XORed with the accumulator divided by 2, and the Unicode character that corresponds to the resulting code point is appended to the source code. Then, the difference between the code point of c and the integer 32 is added to the accumulator, and the next character of the line (if any) is processed.

Dennis

Ahem.

ATaco

Shh Dennis

(Although you are by all rights allowed to answer it)

wizzwizz4

@ATaco Jelly!

feersum

2:47 PM

I knew the last Dennis one but not this. This one sounds like an esolang someone spent 5 minutes making.

ATaco

That is not Jelly.

feersum

Oh, actually the last dennis one mentioned was Jelly, I meant Sesos.

Dennis

You know this one too. You just forgot about it.

ATaco

@feersum TECO! (Who uses TECO?)

feersum

Does it happen to have been posted as an aswer to one of my questions?

@ATaco Correct.

Dennis

2:49 PM

It does.

feersum

@ATaco Umm, historical re-enactors?

ATaco

Fair enough.

feersum

I did win a challenge with it once.

ATaco

TECO is great though because it's almost TACO

Leaky Nun

Presburger arithmetic

Presburger arithmetic is the first-order theory of the natural numbers with addition, named in honor of Mojżesz Presburger, who introduced it in 1929. The signature of Presburger arithmetic contains only the addition operation and equality, omitting the multiplication operation entirely. The axioms include a schema of induction. Presburger arithmetic is much weaker than Peano arithmetic, which includes both addition and multiplication operations. Unlike Peano arithmetic, Presburger arithmetic is a decidable theory. This means it is possible to algorithmically determine, for any sentence in the...

I should make this a challenge

but nobody would solve it

maybe orlp would

ATaco

2:57 PM

Anyway, I'm gonna go sleep, Dennis knows the answer to this one. G'night y'all.

user202729

Malbolge? (probably not because Unicode)

Leaky Nun

> Glivický and Kala recently produced a model of Presburger arithmetic where the Fermat Last Theorem fails, and there are infinitely many counterexamples.

user202729

@LeakyNun But multiplication can't be defined, so is exponentiation...

Leaky Nun

@user202729 well but it can be defined for specific numbers

you just can't produce a total function that is multiplication

feersum

You have to define it for all numbers to state FLT though.

Leaky Nun

3:00 PM

you don't have to state FLT

(if you could, then it wouldn't be able to fail in any model, since the theory is decidable and it is true in one model)

feersum

So what then do you mean?

user202729

@LeakyNun Then what does it mean by "fail"?

Leaky Nun

I don't know, I haven't read the paper

arxiv.org/abs/1602.03580

feersum

Is the joke to introduce numbers that doesn't have a chain of predecssors extending to 0?

user202729

Re NMP: Does anyone have an efficient solution? I have an idea but only works if the graph of lights are bipartite.

Leaky Nun

3:05 PM

@feersum joke?

well that's a standard way to construct nonstandard models of PA, but this isn't PA and I really haven't read the paper

feersum

If that's allowed in PA then I guess it would be allowed here too.

It seems like that would be super-trivial, actually.

We can easily solve x^3 + y^3 = z^3 if we're allowed to use algebaric numbers.

Leaky Nun

@feersum lemme check whether this can be done

user202729

@feersum "algebaric"?

Leaky Nun

you know how it is done in PA right @feersum

feersum

No.

Leaky Nun

3:08 PM

@user202729 yes, some nonstandard models of PA without induction is constructed using algebraic numbers

feersum

I was able to notice the loophole in the axioms :)

Leaky Nun

@feersum so in PA, ordering can be encoded, i.e. x<=y iff ∃k[x+k=y] and x<y iff x+1<=y

so, the nonstandard model of PA is constructed by augmenting the language signature to include another constant c

and adding, for every natural number n, the axiom n<c

(where n is encoded as SSS....SSS0)

every finite subset of the axioms is satisfiable (by the "standard" model of PA), so by compactness the entirety of the axioms is satisfiable

so there is a model with a constant c such that c is bigger than any "finite" number

feersum

Presburger is a subset of PA, right? So you could recycle any model of PA.

Leaky Nun

aha

you're right

5 mins ago, by feersum

We can easily solve x^3 + y^3 = z^3 if we're allowed to use algebaric numbers.

wizzwizz4

@feersum Make sure you break the timesy bit of the program.

Leaky Nun

3:13 PM

but this is done in Robinson arithmetic, i.e. PA without induction, for which Presburger arithmetic is not a subset of

so you can't recycle that

feersum

Getting back to the original claim, I still don't see how the FLT claim can be meaningfully interpreted.

Using algebraic numbers is too easy, so surely that wouldn't be worth publishing?

Leaky Nun

I'm still on P.2

@feersum now I might be wrong (I'm just on the top of P.3)

it seems that they augmented the language to 0 1 + · e ≤

where e is an exponential function not satisfying induction

and then they claimed to have constructed a model where every identity about the natural number holds, and that the function e satisfies elementary identities about exponentiation

and that it has a submodel satisfying presburger arithmetic

and that in both models, FLT fails

feersum

The general strategy is still refuting a statement about natural numbers like "For all x,y blah blah blah..." with "ha ha, you forgot to say all natural x,y!"

?

Leaky Nun

what is so interesting about it

we know it's true for the naturals, so what is so surprising about that strategy

feersum

@LeakyNun Is this a question, or a statement that you didn't finish sending?

Leaky Nun

3:27 PM

I was commenting on your comment

feersum

Well everyone knows that the properties of natural numbers will not necessarily hold for other numbers.

Leaky Nun

so I'm not seeing the point in your comment

feersum

So what I don't get is why this kind of stuff is considered interesting or significant.

Leaky Nun

heh...

nobody said it is

not many mathematicians care about model theory

but those that do (like me) find it interesting

feersum

It's just like a type error, wehre the variables were supposed to be S^n(0) but the theories "forgot" to say that.

And someone has an "exploit" by using objects of the wrong type.

seems silly overall.

Leaky Nun

3:33 PM

I like to think of it as an entirely separate branch of mathematics

I don't know how to explain myself

like you don't go to a topologist and say "but we live in only 3 dimensions"

feersum

I don't say that it does not deserve to be studied, but what annoys me is the mysterious-sounding way that it is presented.

Leaky Nun

well clickbaits exist everywhere, you know

feersum

lol

Ohio Mom DESTROYS theory of natural numbers that was believed by math professors for over 80 years!

Leaky Nun

lol

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Golf the linux kernel kolmogorov-complexity compression This file [to do: make the file and provide a link] contains all the code in the Linux kernel, concatenated together into a single file. Your task is to output all the code in this file. The code in the file has been stripped of all comme...

wizzwizz4

3:48 PM

@NewSandboxedPosts I thought you were a really bad challenge at first glance.

Good thing it's a kolmogrov-complexity challenge.

mınxomaτ

NVIDIA made an imaginary celebrity generator: youtube.com/watch?v=G06dEcZ-QTg&feature=youtu.be

5

Nathan Merrill

@mınxomaτ that's the first time I've actually seen a GAN in use after learning about them

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