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12:02 AM
@quartata I will give you a 500 rep bounty if you make the map of choice trainsawlaser
please
 
sorry it's a custom map
The bots don't get access to a navmesh so it would be too difficult, no obstacles
Maybe next time!
I do think maybe another one with huntsman snipers would be cool
 
Anonymous
@ASCII-only The challenge says "print this exact string". No room for compromise there.
 
@Mego right. so invalid languages would just be invalid?
 
Anonymous
Yep
 
Anonymous
For example, HQ9+ is invalid, because it's not the right string
 
12:06 AM
@Riker will you give a bounty if I put hats on them tho
 
hmmmmmm depends on teh hats
I'd definitely give bounties to the top winners tho
 
@Mego and decision model would be invalid because it's not printing, right?
 
@quartata also, fun idea: pink and lime are now team colored paints, so you are now a breast cancer awareness scout on red and a medi[redacted] on blue
for best reults: don't put it in the patch notes
 
i thought lime green scouts went extinct
 
not really
but sadly most of the other jerma-era species are at this poitn
 
12:10 AM
bird scouts still live!
 
really?
I thought they died since you can't run around for that anymore
 
12:30 AM
Codenames, anybody? I think a game may just happen this time!
 
12:43 AM
@ASCII-only What makes it so bad?
 
@EsolangingFruit mostly a lack of a string type i guess
 
1:18 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

LeoThe Third Flak code-golf brain-flak This challenge was posted as part of the April 2018 LotM challenge Brain-Flak is a turing-tarpit language which has gained quite a lot of fame here on PPCG. The memory of the language is composed by two stacks, but a "hidden" third stack was discovered by ...

 
@ASCII-only If the language is not TC, it's the language's fault. If it is but have some I/O limitation (e.g. Brain-Flak where only number I/O is allowed), you can make another language variant that allows more flexible I/O (similar to the -a and -A flag in Brain-Flak (right?))
 
@user202729 yeah. but i'm only using TIO languages, as they are
 
@ASCII-only But you can add languages to TIO.
 
@user202729 sure. but it's not like anyone even uses the language(s) in question anyway
 
Most Some languages on TIO are mostly unused anyway.
Although... why limiting to TIO?
 
1:31 AM
Most is probably correct
 
^
Like --some-- ... --most-- ... all of mine
 
Also like all the ones I've requested be added
 
Dangit I can't do chat formatting
 
Although I have seen exactly one answer make use of SNOBOL
 
I kinda want to use SNUSP
 
1:34 AM
@EsolangingFruit Three.
(you need three -, not two)
 
Welp, too late to change now
 
@EsolangingFruit pls golf modular SNUSP's Hello, World! then :P
 
Can someone VTD NMP?
 
@ASCII-only I don't see any "Hello, World!" program, just a "Hello, world!" program.
And when you're working in a BF derivative, those two are very different.
 
@EsolangingFruit exactly, that's the problem
 
1:38 AM
so by "golf" do you mean "write"?
 
correcting the Stones one atm, and the HBCHT one is still to-do. it's a huge pain >_>
@EsolangingFruit yes.
@EsolangingFruit protip: use the already golfed BF one as a starting point
 
@ASCII-only Yeah, that's how I'd probably start
But writing golfed HW in BF derivatives is no easy task, so I'd best leave it until I'm more familiar with the language.
 
Languages no one uses that I've personally asked dennis to add: Python (Jython), Python (Stackless), Alice ML, Assembly (JWasm), BitBitJump, Boo, Ceylon, .NET Assembly [CIL], Curry, Emacs Lisp, Emotinomicon, MUMPS, OSH, Phoenix, Prolog (Ciao), Felix, SNOBOL, yash, UBasic, Maxima, Mathics, and probably a few others.
There's also a couple I've requested that people do actually use, like Kotlin
 
Mathics was useful, at least until Mathematica was available...
 
Yep
 
1:41 AM
@Pavel Hey, I've used Felix about once.
 
:O
 
@Pavel We'll probably need CIL sometime to debug Cauliflower lol
@Pavel ...
 
I think someone does use SNOBOL (Giuseppe? Esolanging Fruit? NieDzejkob? I can't remember)
 
I've seen a couple of answers that don't include TIO links
 
Ok, Giuseppe.
 
1:43 AM
@Pavel :|
 
Cobra! Shouldn't forget Cobra. No one uses Cobra.
 
Some languages are impossible to pull directly (Reflections, Reng <-- made by ConorO'Brien, used in the polyglot challenge), although there exists way to make it work server-side (node js + jsdom is a way I know)
 
COBOL! Shouldn't forget COBOL. No one uses COBOL.
 
But I didn't request that :P
Either COBOL for that matter.
 
@ASCII-only Idea: adapt BFCrunch to Bloated SNUSP, which has both a call stack and a 2D memory space.
Writing optimizers for 2D recurrence relations seems like an excellent use of my time. Therefore, since I'm on PPCG, I won't do it.
 
1:49 AM
@EsolangingFruit yeah 2D usually makes things 100x more complicated
 
I don't know if I should count Gaot++. I requested that first, and did so at least 5 times, but ultimately Dennis added it after someone else requested it.
 
@EsolangingFruit protip: do it. it's an excellent waste of your life
@Pavel that is super terrible
two of the ~10 commands are broken...
 
@ASCII-only The first time was serious and the rest of the times were jokes.
 
and they're both stack modification commands. so yeah that's not good
 
Okay, so TIO offers a SNUSP interpreter called SNUSPi where the HW program is this:
72+.29+.7+..3+.67-.12-.55+.24+.3+.6-.8-.67-.#
 
1:58 AM
i'm aware
 
This is not in any standard that I've seen
Therefore it is blasphemous
I shall not use it
 
2:19 AM
I made this: clyp.it/5epkt0oz#
based on someone recording their hard drive :D
 
it feels like there's a fly buzzing around in my head
 
Is there a challenge where thegoalistoseparateenglishwordsthathavenodelimiter?
@JoKing Care to provide some context?
 
@EsolangingFruit re: the music
 
2:49 AM
0
Q: String Reflection (Simple)

NL628Let's start by defining a reflection of a character in a string: Given a string with distinct lowercase alphabetical letters with no spaces such as abcdefg, define a reflection of a letter in the string c as moving it (without changing the order of any other letter) to a new place in th...

 
@Riker tio highlight.js is currently broken because it relies on an asset stored on a-ta.co, which is currently down because I can’t afford to pay the web host at the moment
 
@Pavel OK, now ]Help will give help on pretty much anything for which help exists.
 
Neat!
 
@Pavel From ]Help -?:
Browse or get link to information about any APL concept. Supported concepts are:
 ∘  Symbols for primitive functions and operators
 ∘  Control structures and syntactic symbols
 ∘  System functions, operators, variables, and constants
 ∘  System and user commands
 ∘  GUI objects, properties, methods, and events
 ∘  Error messages
Unrecognised concepts will be searched for as free text in the help system.
 
Awesome. I think that'll help a lot.
When is Dyalog 17 out, again?
 
2:54 AM
@Pavel I think we're aiming for release before the end of Q2.
@Pavel I'll certainly use it myself. :-)
 
3:19 AM
@Adám could you make ≤ decrement like in J?
it doesn’t do anything currently as far as I remember
 
@FrownyFrog It's less than or equals
 
monadically it’s not
 
3:44 AM
Is Array.from the shortest way to copy an array in JavaScript?
Nevermind, there's .concat()
Nevermind, there's [...a]
 
4:15 AM
ok so this was deleted because not standard output. doesn't this invalidate basically all JS answers there
@EsolangingFruit a.slice() is the conventional method
@EsolangingFruit this also works for array-like types. same with Array.from
 
@ASCII-only [...a] is shorter than a.slice() and allows an identifier at the start.
 
@EsolangingFruit yes. but it's not what you do if you're not golfing...
@EsolangingFruit identifier at the start?
 
@ASCII-only I've been using Haskell too much.
@ASCII-only I probably would
sue me
 
4:39 AM
@ASCII-only Actually, bareword at the start (consider for(i of[...x].sort()) and for(i of x.slice().sort()))
 
@EsolangingFruit bareword?????? this isn't perl 5
 
What would you prefer I called it?
 
keyword or identifier should cover all cases for most languages
@EsolangingFruit sure. but what i said is that it's not the production form
CMP: What is a good moderately complex program to test out how practical a language is?
 
FizBuzz?
 
more complex
 
4:47 AM
C compiler
 
Linked lists are popular (especially in low-level languages)
Try an Underload interpreter
It's really, really easy
 
@Pavel done
* a good way to see what a language is lacking
 
@EsolangingFruit doesn't really use any language features. plus it's not the easiest of all the languages to write an interpreter for, and it would take a while to write.
also: where did everyone working on Cauliflower go
@EsolangingFruit anything more complex?
 
5:08 AM
@ASCII-only There's always Brainfuck.
 
how is that more complex
 
There are basically two ways to write a Brainfuck interpreter:
The "do it fast" way which is just to scan the string for loop matches at run time
And the "do it right" way which is to parse and build an AST beforehand
the "do it right" way will probably be more efficient, so you can use that to justify writing a more complex program.
 
@EsolangingFruit no it's to eval
@EsolangingFruit *write an optimizing compiler
 
@ASCII-only This is not an interpreter, it's a compiler.
 
@EsolangingFruit well the language is already slow, people using the language wouldn't care about speed (at least not yet)
 
5:11 AM
@ASCII-only Also not an interpreter.
@ASCII-only Anything involving brainfuck is necessarily pointless
but it's a good exercise
which is what you were looking for, right?
 
@EsolangingFruit more a way to see what additional builtins would be useful
 
Using complex language features is probably going to require implementing a more complex language.
 
@EsolangingFruit ???
 
Or you can go through CJam's builtin list and see if anything either (1) should be a builtin in Cauliflower or (2) couldn't be simply implemented in Cauliflower in its current state
 
@EsolangingFruit jelly isn't very similar. for one it has a lot of vectorization
 
5:16 AM
@ASCII-only Maybe not Jelly. Maybe CJam
most of its stuff is very simple
 
5:28 AM
@EsolangingFruit SNUSPi implements several SNUSP extensions. esolangs.org/wiki/Extensions_to_SNUSP
 
Just looking at that. But extensions should really be given as flags imo
 
@Pavel At least 2 of those requests were mine, not yours. But its still true that they probably only get rarely used.
 
I also don't see any bloated SNUSP implementations on TIO. I'm kind of tempted to make an optimizing compiler (since there's no self-modification, you can directly turn the program into a control-flow graph) that supports the toroidal extension as well as adjustments to cell size.
(adds that to long list of projects)
 
@EsolangingFruit there is a bloated SNUSP interpreter embedded in the test driver for the 'Add a Language to a Polyglot' challenge
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

aoemicaCheckers Checker code-golf The goal of this challenge is to determine if a move is a legal (English) checkers move. This challenge will use an 8x8 board. A moved piece should be treated as a man (not a king) that can only move diagonally forward. The board will have 0 or more black pieces, an...

 
5:34 AM
It mentions the original source of where we got it from
 
@EsolangingFruit lol I have one of those too
 
@Potato44 It doesn't appear to support input
and input is kind of tricky when you're multithreaded
 
@ASCII-only How about brain flak interpreter?
 
well, not really, but...
 
@DJMcMayhem :| why is everyone just suggesting interpreters
 
5:37 AM
@EsolangingFruit we had to remove the input from it because it used windows APIs to implement input
 
Idk. But bflak/fuck are nice cause they're not too complicated
 
@Potato44 That means it probably wouldn't fit my use case either.
That polyglot must be a pain to fix every time the Hexagony code changes size
 
@Pavel I'm doing it, I'm writing C#
I'm porting Funky's Tokenizer to it.
 
@EsolangingFruit the hexagony code is all on the first line so it doesn't matter how large the hexagon is. It's the Cubix that changes size occasionally, but even that is fine most of the time.
 
@ATaco good job 10/10
CMP: If you wanted to create a simple markup language how would you implement the display
simple as in non of that CSS weirdness
 
5:46 AM
@Potato44 Hexagony doesn't have self-modification, right?
 
@ASCII-only Structure only like html or does the markup contain formatting commands?
@EsolangingFruit no idea, I don't really know hexagony.
 
formatting too
@EsolangingFruit IIRC no
 
So it could be optimized pretty heavily
You could check which IPs were used by seeing which ones activate switch IP instructions
And HexagonyColorer is already an impressive piece of static analysis.
hmm
 
@EsolangingFruit Yes, the code can't be read/changed within execution.
(I find English confusing regarding answering negative questions)
 
@user202729 You aren't lacking in companions who haven't managed to avoid getting similarly confused.
Just realized my chat rep is a permutation of a power of 2
 
5:59 AM
:| that's not very interesting though
@EsolangingFruit not really. it's impressive but I don't think its static analysis is the only thing that makes it impressive
 
CMC: Given n, output all n-digit numbers that is a permutation of a power of 2. Both must not have leading zeroes.
 
if anything the static analysis is probably pretty simple
 
> an impressive piece of static analysis
It is indeed impressive. It is indeed a piece of static analysis.
 
Anyone else open far too many tabs when coding?
 
@EsolangingFruit well. i guess you can read it that way
@ATaco not unless i'm trying to use the most obscure language/feature ever
e.g. Java dynamic compilation, or SISAL
 
6:02 AM
Well it's C# so yes.
 
@ATaco Tabs? More like windows
 
@ATaco not just when coding, I have something like 400 tabs open currently.
 
Where did I put that music again?
 
@ATaco C# is one of the most popular languages. so you should have 7 tabs, max.
@Potato44 ...
 
It's new to me.
 
6:02 AM
@ATaco protip: use music on a separate app
 
My computer randomly freezes. I try not to open too many tabs at once.
 
@ATaco still, you shouldn't be looking 100 things up at the same time
 
@ASCII-only Recursive lookup, tab stack overflow.
 
I currently have 9 Chrome windows open. Almost all of them have at least 15 tabs.
 
@user202729 protip: backtrack
@EsolangingFruit ...
 
6:04 AM
I usually have 1 window with 40-50 tabs
 
protip: use Vivaldi so you only need one window
what is with people and their excessive amount of tabs >_>
@people you should GC your tabs more often
 
@ASCII-only They're still on the stack. They can't be GC'd.
 
But I might have need of them some time in the future...
 
@ASCII-only Too many reference cycles
 
@Emigna protip: "Save all tabs to bookmarks folder" is a thing in most browsers
 
6:05 AM
(because I think that's because of the computer run out of memory)
 
@EsolangingFruit I don't want to know how you even have reference cycles in your tabs lol
@user202729 why would they be on the stack...
 
@ASCII-only They're being actively used.
 
@ASCII-only For some reason (not quite sure why) I tend to avoid bookmarks
 
or at least thought about
 
@EsolangingFruit but you can access any one of them. therefore it's not a stack
 
6:06 AM
My tabs are not important enough to bookmark, but not unimportant enough to scrap
 
@Emigna then use FF + OneTab or whatever
 
I'll check it out
 
@ASCII-only Stacks can be random access (at least the system stack on most machines is)
 
@ASCII-only Just not random delete. Accessing is fine.
 
@ASCII-only There's often stuff on tabs that I want to keep alive but will die if I bookmark it (such as TIO). Also, when I bookmark something it gets promptly erased from my memory, never to be seen there again
because I never go back through my bookmarks
for the same reason I don't go back through my tabs
 
6:10 AM
@EsolangingFruit TIO permalinks are a thing
@EsolangingFruit solution: add to speed dial
 
@ASCII-only I can't do that because (1) I'd need to install an extension
and (2) I'd need to install Firefox.
 
*Vivaldi, which has it built-in
 
Vivaldi needs to learn that
> A million ways to customize everything
isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
since when
better than Windows
 
shoot gtg I think some emacs guy is stalking me
 
6:12 AM
which has -1000000 ways
unrelated:
28 mins ago, by ASCII-only
CMP: If you wanted to create a simple markup language how would you implement the display
also, optional: what would be an example format that is 1. easy to read and 2. relatively easy to parse
 
by "the display" do you mean "a rendering engine for a hypothetical browser that displayed pages in this markup language"?
 
also: anyone use LWJGL and JOGL before?
 
@EsolangingFruit ???
@EsolangingFruit not really a browser, but close enough. assume it's really basic so no scrolling and flexbox and crap like that, all it needs to do is calculate positions/sizes correctly on different screen sizes
okay, lwgjl it is because of convenience
 
@Potato44 You need to get rid of all your tabs and switch to spaces.
 
6:25 AM
@EsolangingFruit but then my header bar wouldn't look right.
 
@Potato44 But it would look consistently wrong for everyone
 
@EsolangingFruit protip: with more than 50 tabs (varies depending on display) they're all spaces anyway
 
@ASCII-only That's about accurate for me. That's why I split my tabs up into multiple windows.
 
@ATaco I'm so proud of you
 
@Pavel you should say that too early :P
 
6:28 AM
Anyone know of a less verbose than C++ language that can compile to C++?
 
@Pavel i wouldn't be surprised if his C# codebase ended up worse than the JS one
@user202729 Why do you want to compile to C++
 
@user202729 Felix, although it's not really mature rn
 
@ASCII-only I think this is something that varies between Firefox and Chrome. Chrome makes tabs tiny when you have a lot open, Firefox introduces horizontal scrolling
 
Even the spec is unfinished
 
@Potato44 That's true
 
6:29 AM
@Potato44 Mobile Chrome uses horizontal scrolling.
@ASCII-only My rule is that I won't keep opening tabs in a window past the point where you can't see the favicon.
 
@EsolangingFruit I thought the change tabs page on mobile chrome scrolled vertically.
 
@Potato44 You might be thinking of Safari
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Esolanging Fruit Sandbox notes Is the polyglot tag appropriate? It requires some similar strategies, Double Language Supersets cops-and-robbers language-design polyglots For the purposes of this challenge: A language is a mapping from programs (strings of bytes) to outputs (streams of bytes). ...

 
> often run faster than C
 
6:31 AM
@EsolangingFruit I haven't used Safari in years, I'm thinking of mobile Chrome on android.
 
But but... how?
 
I'm thinking of Chrome on iOS
@user202729 idk, but the optimizer is apparently excellent
 
Great, TIO has everything.
 
These graphs seems to indicate that Felix can (often) match clang and gcc and (very occasionally) beat it.
 
@user202729 instead hmm?
@EsolangingFruit @user202729 If you want a fast scripting language then Crystal is the way to go IIRC
 
6:34 AM
It's got quaternions as a primitive type
 
or PyPy, Julia or lua depending on what you want to do :P
 
Crystal has a very cool type system
Felix's is quite similar to Haskell's iirc
 
CPython/RPython/Julia/Felix (?) would work if you still want it compiled. not sure about Crystal
 
Remember, printf("Hello, World!") is slower than the raw assembly version.
 
Oh. Haxe is a good one if you want to compile to C++ (or one of various other languages)
 
6:39 AM
@ASCII-only You mean Cython?
 
SSSssssython?
 
@Pavel yes that (oops)
 
One problem I have with C#, is that Stack Overflow assumes you're using Visual Studio
How to create a resource. "Do this in the Solution Explorer"
I can't, I'm using a CLI
That's not an option Stack Overflow
 
In general, most people who ask C# questions on SO do use VS, so answers tend to address that yeah.
 
Alas, VS makes me sad, so I avoid it.
 
6:50 AM
@ATaco Then you have to say what you're using...
 
I'm not asking, just googling violently.
 
@ATaco create a resource?
 
I want to store a .txt with a program, in order to do this I need to make it a resource.
That's where I'm stuck
 
@ATaco why do you need to make it a resource
 
Because I don't want it externally stored or modified.
I just want a Read-Only block of text.
 
6:54 AM
Yes, that's annoying.
Try reading csc /help (IIRC?)
 
I could just use a @"Blah blah blah blah", but that requires I escape qoutes.
And they are a relatively large part of this text.
 
Looks like it's the /resource flag.
 
Worked it out, Needs to be part of the .csproj
(Not that anywhere told me that)
<ItemGroup>
    <EmbeddedResource Include="resource\tokens.txt" />
  </ItemGroup>
 
7:18 AM
@FrownyFrog I guess we could, but -∘1 is not exactly verbose, and certainly much clearer. Also, there are other dyadic-only functions which could be filled with more useful functions, like = and for nub(sieve), and / for to/from binary — especially when we get Under (dual). However, user commands (like those I discussed) are easily changed, while primitives are forever, so we need to be really careful to make the right decisions…
 
That's pretty impressive
 
@EsolangingFruit O_o
 
Fueue is... confusing.
 
not the most confusing, but i guess it is
 
It kind of reminds me of 7
but 7 uses a stack
 
7:31 AM
@EsolangingFruit stack cats isn't confusing, but it's hard to golf
 
@ASCII-only "hard" by what standard? Using both halves?
Because that's like saying running is hard because nobody can do a 3-minute mile.
Fueue is confusing because in order to perform loops you have to get the queue set up in such a way that (1) your data is where you want it and (2) the program has the right instructions to set itself up the same way again.
 
@EsolangingFruit figuring out how to do things that are normally simple in other stack-based langs
or equivalent
e.g. dup etc
 
Ah, true
Since the instruction set is limited
 
also figuring out the most efficient way to generate numbers
 
Are there polyglots for binaries on various operating systems?
 
I wonder if any compilers have options to compile to these...
 
@EsolangingFruit Why? ...
Stack Cats is hard to write any program in... without the template.
 
@user202729 I wonder that because I wonder whether the creation of such polyglots is easy (i.e. automatable) enough that it could be considered a portability solution
 
@EsolangingFruit If you want portable programs just provide a bunch of executables and have the user to open the correct one...
 
7:57 AM
Maybe for some reason that's not reasonable
In any case, bye
 
@user202729 or use a language with cross-platform executables/scripts
 
@ASCII-only Which only works if the user has the interpreter.
 
@EsolangingFruit the resulting binaries would be very inefficient, which is why this doesn't exist
plus a lot of things are nontrivial to port
 
@ASCII-only Why? ...
 
@user202729 a lot of conditional jumps based on OS architecture
 
8:00 AM
@ASCII-only Or just jump once at the beginning and have the executable size doubled.
 
@user202729 *multiplied by at least 3 (os x, linux, win). more if there is distro-specific stuff, or bsd support
 

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