The Nineteenth Byte

Erik the Outgolfer

6:06 PM

@user202729 functions can take command-line arguments, it's not disallowed by any consensus

Zacharý

@Dennis Well, they are from the same script.

Erik the Outgolfer

6:20 PM

@totallyhuman huh? I don't feel like this edit was really needed

caird coinheringaahing

What was the edit? I don't see any change

totallyhuman

i added fatal

Erik the Outgolfer

because I'm linking directly to the revision

totallyhuman

because it's a requirement of the challenge but it's not specifically stated

Erik the Outgolfer

where does it say that?

totallyhuman

6:24 PM

...it doesn't

that's the issue

Dennis

But why do you presume to know the author's intention?

totallyhuman

because invalid answers have been deleted

Erik the Outgolfer

I mean, has rybo111 stated anywhere that the error should be "fatal"?

moonheart08

so, you're saying i can't just output -1 as the error code?

'fatal' excludes a lot of languages

a large number of golfing languages lack any kind of error handling

in fast, most esolangs don't have error handling

Erik the Outgolfer

"fatal" means it forces the program to terminate at all circumstances

moonheart08

6:26 PM

And then you have the langs that can't terminate, or ones that lack an explict termination instruction.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

There, I fixed it (with recycled parts) Challenge Given a string containing only letters a-z (either upper- or lowercase), fix it by adding characters to it so that the difference between two adjacent characters is no more than one, or if you can't, remove offending characters (in order) until ...

Erik the Outgolfer

@totallyhuman can you provide a link to such an answer please?

Dennis

Another There, I ... (with ...) challenge...

Erik the Outgolfer

also putting an edit summary helps (I usually do that when I edit others' posts)

totallyhuman

uh yeah i'm looking and i think i fucked up sorry

i've been browsing through a lot of challenges with lots of tabs oops

Erik the Outgolfer

6:30 PM

well, next time be more cautious with your actions then

@Dennis There, I ... it ... (with ...) to be precise :P

somebody was right:

very common trend im seeing here — L_Church 4 hours ago

moonheart08

Well, that's kinda boring. All the challanges people want to make are the ones QUARK is not focused at (QUARK has no handling for inputting or outputting text, only numbers.)

Those challanges being various There, I ... it ... (with ...)

Erik the Outgolfer

I'd say begin with Hello, World! ;)

moonheart08

can't decide on whether to be angry or to laugh

meh

May as well just add some I/O primitives for UTF8 text

It still won't be very good at it, but those angle constants might come in handy (QUARK has builtins for 90, 180, 270, and 360)

totallyhuman

i mean, you're gonna need them anyways if you wanna use it on ppcg

moonheart08

true :P

Erik the Outgolfer

6:38 PM

@moonheart08 I mean, don't rush it, first things first calmly

moonheart08

I haven't been rushing it

:P

Only a tiny subset of the commands are even implemented :P

there's 66 commands i've finalised in total, 16 actually implemented.

Erik the Outgolfer

>_< I hate it so much that, while post deletions update automatically, post undeletions don't, therefore unfairly disabling features for me

moonheart08

I mean, some of the most complex commands, like Generators, will probably be on hold for a while :P

DJMcMayhem

@ATaco I have tacos userscripts enabled. How can I delete just one of them?

totallyhuman

6:57 PM

github.com/atom/xray

NieDzejkob

7:08 PM

> Xray is an experimental Electron-based text editor
> Xray feels lightweight and responsive
The text is inconsistent with itself. I'd be careful, it's probably a scam

caird coinheringaahing

@NieDzejkob I doubt it, it has 4090 stars

NoOneIsHere

came here from codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/157539/text-to-brain-flak

what is gaot

Dennis

An obnoxious spelling of goat.

8

NoOneIsHere

ok thanks

Zacharý

(Popularized by Downgoat, I think)

J. Sallé

7:13 PM

@NieDzejkob well technically electrons are lightweight and responsive...

Erik the Outgolfer

that's where stuff like gaotspek (obnoxious spelling in general) comes from

totallyhuman

a faster atom would be awesome though

J. Sallé

@totallyhuman it would. Mine takes a while to load if I'm using a big workspace folder

recursive

@totallyhuman This is called VS Code.

totallyhuman

not as customizable

HyperNeutrino

7:20 PM

how do I take a string and return a file-like/stream-like object that reads to that string (python)

Dennis

docs.python.org/3/library/io.html

HyperNeutrino

oh cool, thanks!

caird coinheringaahing

Q: I'm thinking about transliterating the multi-byte characters I use in Add++ to single byte non-printables in the source code. Would I then be able to claim characters such as € and ¦ as one byte?

betseg

found this on reddit. what the fuck.

@cairdcoinheringaahing yes, but i think you should be able to input the non-printable version as well

caird coinheringaahing

@betseg What's with the ¬ and multibyte characters?

label a -- goto a

7:28 PM

@betseg JS has async and await?

or what is it if not JS?

betseg

@cairdcoinheringaahing EOL etc

label a -- goto a

Also, is this Godot IDE?

betseg

@labela--gotoa no idea, as i said i found it on reddit

@labela--gotoa yes

caird coinheringaahing

@betseg Given that it would just translate ~10 specific characters and ignore the other characters, I'm guessing the non-printable versions would work just as well

label a -- goto a

@betseg Can you give a link?

Dennis

7:29 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing You can claim a score of X bytes if and only if you can pass an X-byte file to your (file-based) interpreter that does what it's supposed to.

betseg

@labela--gotoa reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/82xz0f/…

label a -- goto a

thanks

now I realised this is a joke of double braces...

normally something I would do in a project with my brother

DJMcMayhem

@betseg It took me way too long to notice that

Erik the Outgolfer

is there anything to notice for us who don't know JS? ;P

betseg

that's how i will put braces from now on. best of both worlds.

@EriktheOutgolfer braces

DJMcMayhem

7:32 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer Yes

Erik the Outgolfer

oh, I expected something even weirder lol

caird coinheringaahing

@Dennis I understand that 'definition', but I don't understand how to pass files as non-ASCII byte versions. For example in this, the first line is the version that currently works and that the programmer would see, and the second line would be what the interpreter sees (using control characters). Would I still be able to claim each of the €¦ characters as one byte in that case?

betseg

i cant register at google code jam?

Erik the Outgolfer

@cairdcoinheringaahing think of the encoding as a representation of the actual program, that's what Jelly programs really look like too (lots of unprintables) for example, but we don't use that real look when we talk about it, we use the representation the encoding specifies instead

recursive

Bytes are not characters.

To get characters from bytes, you also need an encoding.

DJMcMayhem

7:38 PM

Does anyone in here know Lua? I want to require a module from the command line when i launch Lua, is there any flag for that?

Erik the Outgolfer

I'm talking about what you would see if you open a JELLY-encoded file in e.g. Notepad

Pavel

Garbage

Dennis

@cairdcoinheringaahing By using printf, xxd, base64, a hexeditor, or whatever you'd like to use to create such as file. Try it online!

DJMcMayhem

Oh, nevermind, I found it. It's lua -l foo

Dennis

@EriktheOutgolfer A text editor is an exceptionally bad way of looking at a Jelly-encoded file. That goes doubly for Notepad.

Erik the Outgolfer

7:40 PM

is there any good way to look at a JELLY-encoded file other than using a decoder first? ;)

H.PWiz

hexdump maybe

Erik the Outgolfer

yuck, no way

DJMcMayhem

@EriktheOutgolfer Hmm, I bet you could make a vim plugin for it to support the jelly encoding

Unfortunately, vim's default font doesn't render most of those characters, so you'd need to change fonts also

Erik the Outgolfer

vim

most of us

DJMcMayhem

(at least on windows, idk on *nix)

Dennis

7:42 PM

vim has a font? Doesn't it use whatever font your terminal uses?

DJMcMayhem

Not if you use Gvim, which I do because windows' terminal is utter garbage

(inb4 eww windows)

Dennis

inb4 gvim != vim

:P

ngn

@DJMcMayhem see :h gfn

Erik the Outgolfer

inb4 "I can only see inb4 now and that makes me dizzy"

DJMcMayhem

There's actually something about gvim that are really nice compared to using it in the terminal. For one, you can choose whatever font you want. And since it has it's own window, you can make shortcuts that resize the window, which is hard to do in the terminal. And most of all, shortcuts like ctrl-s, ctrl-j etc. don't screw it up

Erik the Outgolfer

7:44 PM

chat.stackexchange.com/…

DLosc

@totallyhuman Hey, do you mind if I use your avatar in a Puzzling.SE question?

AdmBorkBork

@DJMcMayhem That's because you should be using PowerShell, which is great and does all things. :p

Erik the Outgolfer

I won't insult any religions here, but Adm seems to be a PowerShellist :P

DJMcMayhem

Most of use get fanatic about certain technologies :P

Wow, three ':P's in a row.

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Install cmder and your life will be greatly imroved

Dennis

7:52 PM

@DJMcMayhem And develop an unhealthy amount of dislike towards others.

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel Hmm. I had ConEmu for a while, and it was nice, but it took a lot of work to get VS to run projects through it. Is Cmder any easier on that front?

It kinda bugged me that half of my programs would open through cmd and half would be through ConEmu

Pavel

IDK, I still use the Windows terminal for VS.

Οurous

I still use CMD. ._.

Erik the Outgolfer

@DJMcMayhem do you mean inclusive or exclusive?

AdmBorkBork

@DJMcMayhem That sounds like a registry key issue.

DJMcMayhem

7:54 PM

@Pavel So that fails to fix my main problem with cmd: I can't copy output from a VS program I ran

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem You can symlink conhost.exe to conemu.exe or whatever it's called

Which might not break everything.

DJMcMayhem

If something doesn't have a small chance of bricking your machine, is it even worth doing?

Οurous

@Pavel I've learnt it's a good idea to avoid symlinking things under \Windows

recursive

@DJMcMayhem Why not? Works for me.

DJMcMayhem

If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably because you're on 10 and I'm on 7

recursive

7:57 PM

@DJMcMayhem That sounds like it.

Pavel

D:

Erik the Outgolfer

can't update to 10?

(did you get a reservation until july 29, 2016 or whenever entries closed?)

Dennis

Most people I know came to regret the decision to upgrade.

Οurous

Last time I checked there were still a few ways to get it free, legally, from MS.

DJMcMayhem

@EriktheOutgolfer I wouldn't say can't, it's more that I'm paid to write programs that use technologies that aren't supported on 10 yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I use 10 on home machiens

Erik the Outgolfer

8:01 PM

@Dennis nothing worth regretting, unfortunately, since windows 10 is going to be a necessity in a few years (2023), and is already the only (major) Windows version which receives mainstream updates

I remember how I felt for months after updating, it was totally awful :(

Οurous

@EriktheOutgolfer yep it was. Pretty good now

Dennis

If you can't use your computer as needed because the OS won't let you, you have no choice but to roll back. And 5 years is a long time in software; there will probably be a new version of Windows before that happens.

DJMcMayhem

o_O I just deleted 12 GB from my /downloads folder.

@EriktheOutgolfer Why specifically 2023?

Dennis

dennis-home:~$ sudo du -hs /tmp
24G     /tmp

Οurous

@Dennis this is why I still have a 98 install on my desktop, in addition to the 10 and WSL Ubuntu. My favourite fractal generator doesn't work above 98, and the author is too dead to fix it.

Dennis

8:05 PM

That's a serious impediment, yeah.

Closed source, I presume?

Οurous

@Dennis yep.

Dennis

This is why I love open source. If something doesn't work, you have a chance to make it work.

label a -- goto a

@DJMcMayhem I once had my tablet's memory full and then realised that "Downloads" folder contained like 30% of all memory...

Because of all APK's I downloaded to test my apps. In times when Chrome didn't ask if you want to replace, just appended a number to the name

caird coinheringaahing

@Dennis That doesn't really answer my question. I asked if I'd still be able to claim them as single bytes, not how to enter non-printables as a file.

label a -- goto a

btw, is there any way to skip repeating x.pack() in Tkinter? It's quite annoying and makes my beautiful code more ugly .-.

Dennis

8:15 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing You said I don't understand how to pass files as non-ASCII byte versions, so I told you how. I don't know what you mean by what the interpreter sees.

caird coinheringaahing

@Dennis As in the string passed to the interpreter function/class/whatever would replace all instances of € with

Zacharý

I finally got lazy evaluation to work in Jagony. I have no idea how... but it works

Dennis

@cairdcoinheringaahing So you want to provide a UTF-8 encoded source file and count the length of the internal representation? No, that doesn't work.

caird coinheringaahing

@Dennis Ok, thanks. Sorry it took a bit of explaining :/

DJMcMayhem

→ 14 messages moved to PPCG-gaming

Magic Octopus Urn

8:23 PM

@DJMcMayhem You saved me... 200 bytes!

Zacharý

Has anyone else spent 2 hours on a piece of code trying to fix a bug, then made it work by changing one thing, but still had NO CLUE how it works?

caird coinheringaahing

@Zacharý Who hasn't? :P

DJMcMayhem

@MagicOctopusUrn I'm glad to hear it! On <your brain-flak code here> for the output?

Magic Octopus Urn

@DJMcMayhem 252 bytes down

DJMcMayhem

@DJMcMayhem I was honestly looking to use deltas between numbers, restarting after each negative delta. But I see the idea for differences as well... I'm incorporating that now... theres some other problems with this as well that I'm fixing. Also, the 05AB1E code itself is ungolfed, not that it matters, but I want to redo that too. — Magic Octopus Urn 13 mins ago

FWIW, that's an excellent idea and how most manual kolmogorov-complexity golfs work

Magic Octopus Urn

8:28 PM

@DJMcMayhem I was thinking about using base-2 or something, then using that "double" idea up to the closest base-2 integer; but also, is there a mode to evaulate BF as binary?

DJMcMayhem

But for negative deltas, you could do [x] rather than restarting

Magic Octopus Urn

@DJMcMayhem [x]? Is that like subtract?

caird coinheringaahing

[x] negates x IIRC

DJMcMayhem

Yep. It evaluates to the negative of it's argument (so [()()()] == -3)

Οurous

Do I need better error messages than this tio.run/##S8ksKqn8/98w9v9/AA when brackets are mismatched?

DJMcMayhem

8:29 PM

@MagicOctopusUrn No, but it's not a particularly hard snippet to write binary-decimal

Magic Octopus Urn

@DJMcMayhem There's no way to "pop, evaluate, repeat until stack is empty" is there?

DJMcMayhem

@MagicOctopusUrn What exactly do you mean? Do you want to sum each pop?

Magic Octopus Urn

Like, push all the values then run the "multiply", somehow sift that value to the bottom of the stack and continue so I only have to call multiply once in a loop?

DJMcMayhem

Ah, I see

Yeah, you could do that.

Magic Octopus Urn

I know for a fact the worst part of my answer is repeating that multiply clause 100 times hah.

DJMcMayhem

8:31 PM

But rather than sifting it to the bottom, which is ridiculously hard, I would pop it onto the alternate stack (which means you'll have to push them in reverse order)

Magic Octopus Urn

THERES AN ALTERNATE STACK?!

DJMcMayhem

... Did you read the tutorial?

totallyhuman

@DLosc ooh that'd be cool, sure!

Magic Octopus Urn

I mean... yes, kind of haha.

DJMcMayhem

@MagicOctopusUrn Try it online!

Magic Octopus Urn

8:33 PM

Ohh.... the tutorial isn't overly obvious about it... <>, says "toggle active stack" but I'm still even getting used to () and {} at this point so I hadn't tried using <>[] yet lol.

DLosc

@totallyhuman Thanks! I'll put a link here when I post it.

totallyhuman

do you need a higher res version?

DJMcMayhem

> Brain-Flak has two stacks, known as 'left' and 'right'. The active stack starts at left.

Is that not obvious enough?

I guess it is a little strange that we refer to them as left and right rather than main and alternate

Magic Octopus Urn

@DJMcMayhem i don't even SEE that line, where is that

Ohhh... I skip the first paragraphs of stuff. Terrible habit.

DJMcMayhem

It's literally the first line of the tutorial

Magic Octopus Urn

8:35 PM

@DJMcMayhem I assume the first paragraph of things is introduction of the thing sometimes, I feel dumb.

@DJMcMayhem Try it online :D!

Zacharý

8:57 PM

How do you get the number of arguments that you can give to a lambda in Python?

DJMcMayhem

What do you mean?

totallyhuman

some inspect trickery probably

Zacharý

Like JS fn.length

caird coinheringaahing

@Zacharý (<# of args>, lambda x, y, z: ...)

No need to mess around with inspect :P

totallyhuman

huh?

Zacharý

8:59 PM

I'm doing this for debugging, as I don't know which of MANY lambdas in my code is causing an error

caird coinheringaahing

Ah. Never mind me then :P

DJMcMayhem

Why do you have so many lambdas?

Magic Octopus Urn

How do I bounty a post again? I don't see the button...

Zacharý

It's for Jagony... the lazy evaluation I'm using is full of them

totallyhuman

@Zacharý wait is that seriously a thing

Zacharý

9:08 PM

@totallyhuman Yep (IIRC)

totallyhuman

why

Zacharý

Function as a parameter, that way you don't have to pass in the number of arguments (à la .length of an array)

dzaima

@totallyhuman it's actually been useful for Canvas for knowing how many items to pop from the stack for a lambda

Zacharý

9:49 PM

@dzaima I think MY does that as well (the Python version of fn.length, because sympy isn't in JS...)

IIRC, D has fn.length ... but I'm not sure about that one.

moonheart08

@totallyhuman because.

I use Javascript so much I don't even care anymore, even thought the room around me is on fire and has a molten reactor core in the corner

ASCII-only

@DJMcMayhem Clearly you should use WSL and open Vim in a Linux Terminator window :P

@moonheart08 ... you're using JS wrong

moonheart08

u sure

ASCII-only

@moonheart08 actually you're using it right you can probably sell the reactor core for a lot

5

@moonheart08 yes? a lot of good things are written in JS, like Vivaldi, VSL, Hyperdrive and (possibly) xray

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Shortest C# noop c#code-golf I'm thinking this is probably too simple of a challenge, but if I can pull it off without getting downvoted into oblivion, I would like to. I'm basically asking for what is the shortest valid statement in C# that doesn't have negative side effects. Negative side ef...

DJMcMayhem

9:58 PM

@ASCII-only Wsl isn't on 7 :P

ASCII-only

@DJMcMayhem :/ rip

moonheart08

I just had a stupid, but potentially brilliant idea: Make a KOTH challange based on factorio, where the goal is to have a bot make the best factory possible that lasts for as long as possible against enemies

ASCII-only

@moonheart08 can't the bot just fight the enemies manually

moonheart08

not for long, if you have the enemies scale up

ASCII-only

@moonheart08 also can't you build an impenetrable laser turret wall

moonheart08

10:01 PM

@ASCII-only You have no idea how lategame that is.Plus, this is a simplified version we're talking about. We can have the enemies scale infinitely, so that's not just the best approach forever

and alongside that, not like the bot actually needs to fight the enemies by hand. Force it to actually defend using machinery :P

Zacharý

I might just rewrite the entire Jagony source to use transpilation instead of my lazy evaluation hack...

ASCII-only

@Zacharý well I use evaluation

@feersum less overhead so my battery doesn't die

Zacharý

@ASCII-only Stuff like System.MainClass.MainMethod.Define(System.IO.Write(System.Literals.Integer.Zero‌)) needs to work here, and I'm not that good with lazy evaluation... this is just a hacked mess.

ASCII-only

@Zacharý what is this

Zacharý

Jagony

Object Oriented to the extreme.

totallyhuman

10:15 PM

jAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAava

ASCII-only

how can you have two statements in your main class

totallyhuman

basically

Neil

@ASCII-only You seem to have broken And? Try it online!

also, I don't think Charcoal is accepting separators after MapAssignRight right now

Zacharý

System.Types.Class.Declare(System.MainClass).Chain(
	System.MainClass.PublicVisibility.DeclareStaticMethod(System.MainClass.HelperMethod)
).Chain(
	System.MainClass.PublicVisibility.DeclareStaticMethod(System.MainClass.MainMethod)
).Chain(
	System.MainClass.HelperMethod.Define( ... )
).Chain(
	System.MainClass.MainMethod.Define( ... )
)

ASCII-only

@Neil Oops :/

Zacharý

10:19 PM

.Chain will be like ;

caird coinheringaahing

Haha, I love inverted colours on iPhone. TIO looks really weird :P

ASCII-only

@cairdcoinheringaahing iirc you can even invert via CSS

caird coinheringaahing

TIO's ghost

ASCII-only

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh. how does it look weird though

totallyhuman

screenie don't work

screenies are normal color

caird coinheringaahing

10:23 PM

@totallyhuman Aww, that sucks :/

ASCII-only

@cairdcoinheringaahing here

totallyhuman

combine that with a mountain in the back

ASCII-only

@totallyhuman huh?

Zacharý

I think I'm going to write a transpiler (while keeping my lazy-evaluation-code in a separate file) and see how that goes... this is Just AGONY

Adám

@Zacharý Btw, very clever idea to just translate the 01!<> code to APL.

ASCII-only

10:32 PM

@totallyhuman 10/10 looks like a stain

Zacharý

@Adám I wasn't talking about that... but thanks!

Adám

@Zacharý I wasn't responding to anything ⍨

Zacharý

You made it sound like I had the idea for transpilation in that challenge.

Adám

@Zacharý Oh, I didn't even notice ⍥

Zacharý

Which challenge is this for>

Adám

10:36 PM

@Zacharý None. I'm confused. I should go to bed. Sorry.

Zacharý

Found it!

Adám

@Zacharý Maybe your talk of transpiling somehow made me think it was yours. Dunno.

Zacharý

The challenge J. Sallé was asking you about.

Adám

@Zacharý Yes, and EriktheOutgolfer made a very clever solution.

Zacharý

Ah, so you mistakenly thought I did it?

Adám

10:45 PM

@Zacharý Somehow, yes.

@Zacharý Maybe also because you asked about a detail in my golfing J.Sallé's solution to the same problem.

Zacharý

Yeah, but I figured it out.

Adám

@Zacharý Took me a while to figure out why i+← and i←i+ didn't do the same thing.

HyperNeutrino

WTF how am I getting Popular Question so quickly

Popular Question on the scissors challenge in 5 hours at 1480 now

Zacharý

Woah.

totallyhuman

you've been hit by, you've been struck by, H N Q

Zacharý

10:48 PM

It becomes apparent when you literally have a modified assignment that would be equivalent to just assignment...

HyperNeutrino

?

Zacharý

(w/ regards to Adám ... having i⊢← in the code)

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Hard to follow multiple intertwined conversations without pings?

HyperNeutrino

@Adám yes lol

Zacharý

Ninja'd? Sort of?

Riker

11:57 PM

TIL there's a comic parchment font (papryus + comic sans)

creativemarket.com/benharman/…

ASCII-only

@moonheart08 how would it be scored though? some may perform better earlygame while others might just be preparing for the first who knows how many hours

Dennis

It's available for purchase? o_O

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