The Nineteenth Byte

Anonymous

12:00 AM

@Riker "Strong opinions" is one way of saying I'm stubborn :P

Riker

wait wat @Mego did you say a message about "my criteria" or smoething

@Mego <shrug>

it's not visible while I'm in TNB

but using doorknob's chatception thing while in another room shows it

o_O

Anonymous

@Riker My criteria for whom I voted in the room owner election

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I don't think I have 3, haha. My activity chart is pretty much the same as the TNB activity chart

Riker

yeah but you did say it right

now netiher are visible

O_o

I don't have you on ignore (didn't think so but double checked)

Anonymous

I dunno. Maybe the chatception thing is buggy?

Riker

12:03 AM

don't think so, this is the main chat

it's probably adblock or ghostery acting up

Anonymous

I run both and don't have any issues

Riker

ok I cleared cache it worked now

whatever, just kinda confusing

Anonymous

So blame caching, as always

Riker

lol

DJMcMayhem

On a random note, let's take a moment to appreciate one of my favorite TNB moments. The time @Mego thought I was a new user

Riker

12:07 AM

lol

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem To be fair, you used to change your username more frequently than a stereotypical teenage girl changes her hair

Riker

^ can confirm I live with one

it's hell

so many makeup products lying around the house

@DJMcMayhem my personal favorite was when @quartata said he saw a design on main

I'm still not sure if he was trolling

quartata

"Said"? What are you implying...?

No trust.

Riker

that si correct

quartata

:(

Anonymous

12:12 AM

Eh, it was a fairly weak troll. 4/10.

Riker

you said do genocide route in undertale

it would be fun you said

./s

Anonymous

Geobits's trolling about graduation dates is always great

quartata

It is! The ending is cool!

Albeit dark.

Jan Dvorak

@Riker How far have you got?

Riker

died like 100 times on sans

gotten dunked on once so far

not doing that again

DJMcMayhem

12:13 AM

@Mego hehe, I just thought it was hilarious that we had this awesome conversation about coffee and then twenty minutes later you were like "Oh, I had no idea I was talking to you"

Jan Dvorak

Because it wouldn't be Fun sans a boss battle or two

Anonymous

@quartata Vs lbh pnyy univat gb svtug gur uneqrfg obff va gur tnzr "pbby", fher

Riker

wot

Anonymous

@JanDvorak I see what you did there

quartata

@Mego Yes, I do. He's cool.

Riker

12:14 AM

@JanDvorak pls

quartata

@Riker Weak cryptogram

Anonymous

@Riker s/w/r/

Riker

ah

quartata

Oh haha it's rot13?

Didn't even notice

Riker

lol

@Mego already fighting him

Anonymous

12:15 AM

@DJMcMayhem I guess that just proves I don't show favoritism? :P Why aren't you DJMcMayHam?

DJMcMayhem

@Riker The second dunking is better

Riker

havne't done that yet

Anonymous

@Riker I went with ROT13 so that anyone who didn't want spoilers could easily avoid them

Riker

yeah I figured

I don't care though

I've already beat TP so I'm pretty much fine with them now

Anonymous

But someone else might :)

Riker

12:15 AM

ah true

@DJMcMayhem right now I'm just trying to practice his early attacks so I can (hopefully) not use any healing items

quartata

@Riker You haven't done post-geno TP though

Riker

the hardest one is the half blue/white attack

Jan Dvorak

There's one Rot13 word I know by heart: zntarg

Anonymous

@JanDvorak Why?

Jan Dvorak

Geocaching

quartata

12:16 AM

As in magnet torrent

Oh.

Riker

the only phrase I know is 'arire tbaan tvir lbh hc'

Anonymous

I don't Geocache, so I dunno

Anonymous

My memorized ROT13 phrase is "lbh whfg ybfg gur tnzr"

Jan Dvorak

@Riker $#^$

Riker

rip

Jan Dvorak

12:18 AM

 def rot13 text; text.downcase.tr "a-z", "n-za-m"; end

I've just read the star wall. Did someone say "hyperrogue"?

DJMcMayhem

In V it's just g?

Anonymous

rot13=lambda s:s.decode('rot13')

Riker

@DJMcMayhem 10/10

DJMcMayhem

There's actually two different two-byte solutions. g? and V~

(assuming input is only one line)

Anonymous

Gah, that's still wrong

Anonymous

12:24 AM

from codecs import*;lambda s:decode(s,'rot13')

Anonymous

Super yucky

ATaco

rot13=load"string.char(((...):upper():byte()-52)%26+65)"

Yay, Lua.

Jan Dvorak

->t{t.tr"a-z","n-za-m"}

ATaco

CMC: Implement Rot13.

Riker

@Mego ♪ and so did I ♪

@ATaco V, 1 byte: g

ATaco

12:27 AM

Why is there a builtin for that?

What is this, Mathematica?

Riker

no, it's a string processing language

why wouldn't there be

Jan Dvorak

Rule 35: for every challenge, there's a preexisting language that solves the task as a built-in feature.

7

ATaco

It's a bit, cheaty...

I guess

quartata

It's actually a part of Vim.

g?

DJMcMayhem

^

@Riker It's g?, Not g

ATaco

12:29 AM

RProgN, 21 Bytes.

Riker

@DJMcMayhem ah I see

just tested it, you're right

:( vim is hard

DJMcMayhem

And yes, it's part of vim, but in Vim it would have to be g?_, in V the _ is implicit

Riker

oh cool

V is cool

I should seriously get around to learning it

DJMcMayhem

:D

@Riker I actually just recently added "verbose mode" so now is a good time to learn it. Feel free to bug me with questions

Riker

> TODO: beat sans; figure out how to make ramen; make ramen; learn V

@DJMcMayhem cool!

DJMcMayhem

12:31 AM

@Riker Wait, really? Ramen is easy

Riker

yes

ATaco

Learn RProgN, It's consistently okay!

Riker

@DJMcMayhem with tofu tho

not beef/shrimp (eugh to shrimp)

DJMcMayhem

Aww

Shrimp is awesome

I had it for lunch today actually

Riker

eugh no it's disguisting

@DJMcMayhem ramen w/ shrimp or just shrimp

DJMcMayhem

12:32 AM

Neither. Shrimp + Mac & cheese

Destructible Watermelon

I used to really dislike shrimp/prawns

Riker

@DJMcMayhem O____O why

Destructible Watermelon

but it turned out that it was just the prawns I had had weren't made very well

Riker

mac and cheese should be pure

Destructible Watermelon

@Riker Why not?

Riker

12:33 AM

optionally with barbeque sauce

mac n cheese is amazing plain why would yo spoil it

Destructible Watermelon

@Riker for science

ATaco

Mac and Cheese is good in all forms, both pure and with more.

Riker

@DestructibleWatermelon -1 not all caps + 3 excalamation points

./s

Destructible Watermelon

what is this with the ./s?

Riker

sarcasm

I'm just used to the . bc skype reads / as a command

wat

12:41 AM

@Riker i used to do that in minecraft

something like <TheRealAlien> Hey @IgnorantOp can you please run this command: ./tp @a TheRealAlien

New Main Posts

12:57 AM

0

Q: TI-BASIC Prime Checker

The user assigns an integer value to N before running the program. It is assumed that 1 ≤ N ≤ 1010(the maximum value that can be stored completely accurately). The program prints something to inform the user whether or not N is prime. (Note: program should be able to run on a TI-84 ie not use ...

primes

DJMcMayhem

@NewMainPosts I VTC'd that, and I was surprised when my hammer didn't work.

They tagged it wrong

Destructible Watermelon

1:40 AM

@JanDvorak which one has martian chess?

tell me

Jan Dvorak

vOv

Destructible Watermelon

@JanDvorak link pls

I can't find it

ETHproductions

@DJMcMayhem Should have tagged it first, then dupe-hammered it

user165474

Why is it so desirable to hammer a challenge?

feersum

Smashing things is fun! Haven't you tried it?

ATaco

1:47 AM

I can't hammer anything yet :(

user165474

How much rep do you need?

feersum

Apparently I need 10 code golf answers for that.

user165474

@feersum I've tried it before, using a hammer to smash ice. And yes, it is quite fun. but it's different from challenges... right?

feersum

It's not quite the same but people who can't afford H2O use challenges as a substitute.

ETHproductions

@AlexL. You need the gold code-golf tag badge, which requires 200 answers and 1000 total score

user165474

1:49 AM

@ETHproductions Okay. Thanks!

user165474

@feersum Okay. What if I don't have the gold code-golf tag badge?

user165474

@ETHproductions Apparently editing a post causes another update to show up, so I just got a lot of desktop notifications at a time :P

feersum

@AlexL. Then you don't get to smash anything.

user165474

:(

ETHproductions

@AlexL. Oh, sorry :P

user165474

1:52 AM

@ETHproductions It's alright. :P

user165474

What does that 2240 under my profile pic+name mean?

RenderSettings

tfw your language's range function doesn't work on signed integers because they're just a construct

Destructible Watermelon

what

RenderSettings

signed integers don't real

Destructible Watermelon

is this php or something...?

RenderSettings

1:54 AM

if it's not an atom or a cell it's fake as shit

nah it's hoon :^)

ETHproductions

@AlexL. It's your total rep across SE

user165474

@ETHproductions Oh okay. Thanks. I was wondering because I don't remember having over 1200 rep. :P Also, I seem to have been not getting notifs for SO upvotes because I just visited my profile and I have 130 more rep than when I last checked

ETHproductions

Oh? That's odd

ATaco

I should probably answer more questions.

Meh.

CMC are the only challenges I need now adays.

Riker

CMC: make a potato salad with content from chat

popularity-contest

user165474

2:05 AM

What are CMCs?

Riker

chat-mini-challenge

just little challenges posted in chat

ETHproductions

@Riker I should probably answer more signed integers because they're just a post causes another update to have been not getting notifs for science

Riker

I meant a literal potato salad but ey +1

@quartata can I have your undertale steam trading cards? making the badges

ETHproductions

@Riker Of course you did, why should I think anything different :P

Riker

lol

ETHproductions

2:14 AM

I'd bring ETHbot in here to create more "potato salad", but that's probably not a good idea

RenderSettings

there we go, 110 to 94 with a different take on it

(this is still terrible :( )

DJMcMayhem

@ETHproductions Hammers don't work when you edit a tag in

ETHproductions

@RenderSettings I honestly have no idea what you're talking about

Oh, golfing an answer?

RenderSettings

@ETHproductions yup

ETHproductions

@DJMcMayhem TIL, but that makes sense

DJMcMayhem

2:30 AM

Yeah, it would be abused otherwise

ATaco

I failed to make potato salid.

Darn Cross Origin Policy.

Wait, I've got it.

var img = document.createElement("img"); img.setAttribute("id","potat-salid"); img.setAttribute("src","https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/011/737/697/03093adb42e‌47fadeb5a176ec763c4f7_original.jpg?w=1536&h=864&fit=fill&bg=FEFEFE&v=1463688046&a‌uto=format&q=92&s=33f9a7278972482534114db99fbb3884"); $("*").append(img);

Makes the chat Potato Salid.

ETHproductions

I am not running that

ATaco

That's probably a good idea.

ETHproductions

Although I might peek at the image itself

Ooh, that looks tasty

Too bad I'm already full of pizza and wings

ATaco

Do I win the potat salid CMC?

Riker

3:13 AM

sure

ATaco

Yes!

LegionMammal978

3:25 AM

> Donald Trump's least favorite activities are doing laundry, going to the dentist, and cleaning his room.

^ From an automatically generated grammar assessment

(plz don't 11 for political reference)

ATaco

Well it's likely true.

They're my least favourite things too.

>:(

Mistah Figgins

Gah the Patriots won

It was close too

LegionMammal978

@MistahFiggins You're not trolling?

ETHproductions

That's gotta be one of the most exciting Super Bowls of all time (or at least in the last few years)

LegionMammal978

It was 0-16 last I saw it

ETHproductions

3:28 AM

34-28 OT

Mistah Figgins

@LegionMammal978 google.com/…

LegionMammal978

Well, that sets the record for the largest comeback

ETHproductions

Was it 3-28 at some point or was 9-28 the largest gap?

Either way, it's the largest comeback by far

Helka Homba

@ETHproductions 0-21 I think

ETHproductions

Oh, right

wat

3:31 AM

WTF it's snowing

like 2 inches of snow already

@Pavel is it snowing where you are?

ETHproductions

Imagine if they had reviewed the final touchdown and found it just short...

That Amendola catch toward the end of the 4th quarter will go down as one of the best SB catches in history

wat

My school has baout 8-10 Dell Precision T3500 computers with quad core/HT Xeons, that are just sittin ghtere offline

What are some interesting things I could do with them

They have 6GB RAM each

Helka Homba

koth server

LegionMammal978

@wat Not snowing where I am, southern US here so everyone freaks out over 0.5in of snow

wat

@LegionMammal978 well I mean

@HelkaHomba Something useful

LegionMammal978

3:36 AM

@wat Get me ssh access so I can install factoring software?

wat

@LegionMammal978 @Pavel lives a few miles away from me

@LegionMammal978 They're running Windows 7 currently, but I might be able to plug in sme flash drives (Linux) because the school has ~15 empty flash drives in a box

also, probably not

LegionMammal978

@wat The factoring software also supports Windows, but I don't know of anything similar to ssh for Bash...

oh well I gtg

wat

I could make them all share their hard drives (500GB each) via something like GFS and then have a distributed web server with a Raspberry Pi as load balancer(?)

feersum

A KOTH server would be more useful than factoring; it would entertain more people.

wat

Or maybe I could make them into a distcc farm and set compilation records

> make -j95

feersum

3:39 AM

Or we could just make a language with a KOTH server builtin and get Dennis to add it.

wat

Why would you want a KOTH server farm?

Jsut hosst locally

or make dennis host it on TIO

feersum

If you have a server the latest contestants can be added in real time.

Also, you could have hidden submissions.

Nathan Merrill

I totally want to make KoTHComm into a server farm one day.

its definitely the way to go

wat

Hey @Dennis Why can't I open TCP sockets through TIO?

Says "permission denied"

ETHproductions

@HelkaHomba It was 3-28 at one point, according to Sports Illustrated

Dennis

3:48 AM

@wat Because that would be a major security flaw. If you were allowed to access the internet, nothing would stop you from using TIO to carry out DoS attacks or send spam.

wat

@Dennis oh.

I see

Is there a better way to test golfs that access the internet?

Other than running locally

Nathan Merrill

a different online interpreter?

wat

@NathanMerrill Huh.

Does ideone allow things like that?

Nathan Merrill

no idea

Dennis

@wat I don't think so. Any online interpreter that allowed this wouldn't survive for long.

@wat Ideone doesn't even allow you to create files. TIO gives you a lot more liberties.

wat

3:51 AM

@Dennis seriously?

k

Dennis

@JanDvorak Rule 35': In nine out of ten cases, that language is Mathematica.

ETHproductions

And in nine out of ten remaining cases, that language is Jelly or 05AB1E.

Dennis

Jelly isn't even remotely competitive with production languages when it comes to number of built-ins. It just happens to outgolf those lengthy built-ins anyway.

Nathan Merrill

@Dennis Have you considered using Ace (or something similar) for code editing? You could even allow language designers to make their own syntax highlighting for it

ATaco

RProgN generally doesn't have a builtin for most solutions, but is alright at out golfing production languages anyway.

Nathan Merrill

3:55 AM

(I don't use TIO much, so take it with a grain of salt)

Matthew Roh

@Dennis Can you try solving my problem?

ais523

actually, this reminds me of a rules question I had

@Dennis I'd say Jelly's advantage is the focus of the builtins, more the number; they're very good at covering the space people typically think of for golfing problems

I'm thinking of writing a language which supports all libraries ever written for Perl (and that are hosted on CPAN, the main Perl repository)

Matthew Roh

(Well, I technically challenge you, that you will not be able to golf it under 10 bytes)

ais523

would the language have to download all the libraries at install time in order to not violate the rule about outsourcing the problem? Or could it do that later?

feersum

yes

Dennis

3:58 AM

@NathanMerrill The problem with syntax highlighting is that you cannot apply it to a textarea and content-editable divs have their own set of problems (XSS, lack of ability to disable auto-correct, etc.). The remaining option is to create a dummy textarea the user types into and copy the input to a textarea. Ideone, e.g., does this, and it is utterly unusable from mobile.

ais523

to which?

feersum

Download them all at install time.

ais523

wow, that seems like a fairly obnoxious rule

feersum

The other one seemed more obnoxious to me.

Dennis

@ais523 I don't think so. We allow Python + SymPy answers, and SymPy doesn't come with Python. As long as the module predates the challenge and you label your answer as <language> + <module>, you should be fine.

feersum

4:00 AM

To use the language "Python + Sympy", you need to have downloaded Sympy.

ATaco

Although generally you need to include the import.

ais523

technically speaking you get the same result either way, but requiring a download that's likely several tenss of gigabytes of stuff you won't use seems like it'd discourage use of the language

Dennis

@MatthewRoh Considering that your challenge is on hold, I'll pass.

ais523

@Dennis: right, the idea was basically to save needing to write the import statement by giving all these things unique names

Matthew Roh

Well do we want a XOR language-chain quine problem

Where the code outputs the XOR result of the code and the code before it

Dennis

4:02 AM

@ais523 Still not a problem. It starts to get blurry if you language downloads them at runtime. If you have to explicitly download the module at some point, you should be fine.

ais523

@MatthewRoh: I don't think so; both the obvious direct way and the obvious cheating way of doing that are fairly boring

@Dennis mightn't that lead to a potential exploit in the other direction? that the language could use the set of libraries that were installed as a source of information?

Matthew Roh

Yeah, I thought it'd be hard too.

Dennis

@ais523 You mean like Mathematica? :P

We actually have a meta discussion regarding just that. Lemme find it.

ais523

@Dennis no, I mean something like "take the first letter of every installed library and interpret that as a program"

Dennis

10

Q: Are Mathematica's datasets valid?

I, being an avid Mma user, sometimes use its many datasets (such as ElementData) for golfing purposes. However, these require the Wolfram Research servers to have the data. As I'm not directly connecting to the Internet, I am wondering if this would be considered a loophole.

discussion rules

@ais523 Anything on the verge of becoming a problem will wind up as a loophole.

ais523

4:05 AM

well, yes

it's more that there are things that most people think are reasonable, and yet it's fairly clear to me that you can construct a language in which such things would have to be ruled a loophole

for example, using a specific version of a programming language

Dennis

If you're thinking about what I think you're thinking about, that's essentially Meta Golfscript and already a loophole.

ais523

actually, hmm, what about this: at install time I create 65537 different executables; one interprets the program as-is, the other 65536 each append two specific octets to the start of the program before running it

that's not metagolfscript because the interpreter predates the question (in metagolfscript, the interpreter doesn't predate, and that's how we ban it at the moment)

I think it should be banned

but I also think it's hard to come up with a consistent rule that allows it to be banned

ATaco

Rule 0: If you think you're cheating, you're probably cheating.

Dennis

Not everything that shouldn't be done can be forbidden. That's what downvotes are for.

feersum

^

ais523

4:09 AM

and it tends to be fairly random whether the answer ends up massively upvoted, or downvoted and deleted

@ATaco I don't know, sometimes I post an answer when I have zero clue whether I'm cheating or not

ATaco

Not knowing doesn't mean thinking you are.

ais523

AFAICT the only reasonable option is to post it anyway, if it gets deleted there's no real harm done

feersum

ATaco never guaranteed the converse.

Dennis

@ais523 Massive upvoting of crappy or blunty invalid posts is indeed a problem, but aside from ~~brainwashing~~ mass education, I see no way to solve it.

ais523

I mean, if I know the post is invalid, I don't post it

Mistah Figgins

4:11 AM

@Dennis The problem is mainly drive-by upvotes, I think

Not quite sure what I mean by that...

ATaco

Generally, something is only ever funny once, EG. The Blank Quine.

Dennis

And that was over a decade ago.

ATaco

Although H9Q+ still pops up occasionally, it generally only does so in good spirit (And it usually loses)

Matthew Roh

Blank quines dont work in every language

Some languages still output something to STDERR

ais523

yes but you can define the output as being stdout in that case

Dennis

4:14 AM

@ATaco That's only because we eventually ran out of ways to make Hello World challenges.

ais523

alternatively, if the language prints something to stdout, you can define the output as being to stderr

Mistah Figgins

@ATaco The only semi-creative way I've seen it used is here

ATaco

(I was looking for that one)

Matthew Roh

I dont think we need more quines

Do we

Dennis

@MistahFiggins But someone had to ruin it by posting a shorter answer.

Mistah Figgins

4:16 AM

@Dennis :P That was you

Dennis

I know.

Mistah Figgins

That's why you posted it, of course

ais523

for what it's worth, I think HQ9+ should generally be allowed; it's basically just a language with a few useful golfing builtins

and the only reason people dislike it is that it doesn't do anything else

ATaco

Also, the doubling quine, which was HH

ais523

the Q isn't even a proper quine

ATaco

4:17 AM

H9Q+ is rarely actively banned because it can't do much.

The idea of single character built-ins isn't even unique among languages.

Matthew Roh

What about One char quines

Mistah Figgins

@ATaco "And no using HQ9+ for this kolmogorov-complexity challenge"

ATaco

If your challenge can be solved by HQ9+ then the challenge is at fault.

ais523

@MatthewRoh with our current definition, a one character quine is physically impossible; it's fairly easy to define a language where a one byte quine works, though (if your characters are smaller than bytes)

Matthew Roh

Oh

ATaco

4:19 AM

You're talking about 7, aren't you...

Matthew Roh

Text

ATaco

RProgN was the father of the 1\n1 quine!!1!1!!one!!

ais523

@ATaco 7 has a huge range of quines, but the shortest I'm aware of under the "some part of the program encodes some other part of the result" rule is five characters (two bytes)

it can do a payload-capable quine in two characters (one byte)

ATaco

Does, 7 do much else at all efficiently?

ais523

efficiently? not really, although it's fairly good at outputting constant strings

it's basically just a modification of Underload designed to remove some warts (e.g. it has actual I/O)

and I took the opportunity to hit as many corner cases in PPCG rules as I could along the way

ATaco

4:23 AM

I need to write a golfier language than RProgN.

Matthew Roh

Do we want an anagram language chain (Gauche Nag Nail)

ATaco

It does everything perfectly mediocre.

ais523

a lot of the fun in esoteric languages is identifying things that haven't been done before or that violate the assumptions that people typically make about languages; and PPCG rules are pretty much a list of typical assumptions about languages, so tying the rules in knots pretty much automatically means you have a good esolang

ATaco

I just like writing interesting syntax.

Matthew Roh

esolangs.org/wiki/MONOD

ATaco

4:26 AM

See: Threead.

ais523

btw, IMO Lenguage-alikes should be based on something golfier than compressed brainfuck, it'd make the programs less ridiculously long

@ATaco I normally find syntax the least interesting part of esolangs, but that's partly because there are so many more ways to be uncreative with it whilst thinking you're being funny than there are with semantics; syntax innovations aren't inherently bad, just often end up that way in practice

one advantage that golfing has is that it makes syntax matter a lot more

Matthew Roh

I would shorten for(int i=0;i<10;i++) into f(i,0>9)

ais523

if I were shortening it, I wouldn't shorten it into something that verbose

ATaco

~191{}: in RprogN~

I don't write a new syntax for it to be funny, I'm either trying to make it golfier than before, or, I'm trying to make it more interesting than before.

Threead was designed not to be hard, but to make one think.

ais523

right, it's a puzzle language, but it's not a difficult puzzle language

unless you're trying to golf it, in which case it is fairly difficult

compare it to Incident, which is so hard to write anything at all in (other than cat and programs that print constant strings, which are only moderately hard) that I put parts of the documentation behind spoiler tags

I guess I tend to aim my puzzle languages really really hard for some reason, I mostly gave up on Three Star Programmer once I worked out how to actually write programs in it

Mistah Figgins

4:42 AM

I designed Del|m|t similarly - It's not hard to make simple programs, but difficult to make more complex ones, let alone golf them

Mostly It makes one think because It's only 1 dimensional, so you have to jump over certain parts of the code or change the delimiter to change the functionality of the code over the span of it's running

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