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10:03 AM
15 rep is 2 upvotes...
 
@Fatalize I can't golf.
 
15 is 3 challenge upvotes
 
writing challenges takes too long
 
Anonymous
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Does giving explicit access actually work to waive the rep req?
 
@Mego I beleive so
 
Anonymous
10:16 AM
Also it doesn't have to be PPCG rep - you just need 20 rep network-wide
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SefaInneficient compiling code-challengecompile-time Task Write some the shortest code that result in the largest compiled/transpiled file Scoring Your score is calculated as such : Size of your code (in Bytes) / Size of the generated file (in Bytes) For example, if your code is 8 bytes long an...

 
10:36 AM
Alright now there's 2 people with blue backgrounds and a yellow orbish thing as their profile picture now
I'm having a hard time telling Doorknob's and Avery's profile pics from a glance
 
okey...
0
A: Shortest Code to Legitimately Slack Off

LampBötThe C Preprocessor / Any C or C++ Implementation, 362 bytes #define N() #define D(I) I N() #define E(...) R(R(R(__VA_ARGS__))) #define R(...) T(T(T(__VA_ARGS__))) #define T(...) Y(Y(Y(__VA_ARGS__))) #define Y(...) U(U(U(__VA_ARGS__))) #define U(...) I(I(I(__VA_ARGS__))) #define I(...) O(O(O(__VA...

 
Anonymous
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Please don't advertise answers here
 
goes to beep boop maggot
I'd say it's pretty high effort for something that only wants two measly upvotes
 
Anonymous
35
A: Is it OK to promote my own posts in chat?

DJMcMayhemPromoting your own posts is definitely OK, but there are some very important guidelines to consider. Promoting your own posts is usually OK if It's relevant to the topic of discussion. Hey, have we had a challenge about finding the smallest prime larger than N? --User1 Yes [link to own...

 
okay I won't be #3
 
Anonymous
10:43 AM
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ There's a really obvious optimization you could do to save a lot of bytes. All you did is copy the SO answer and rename tokens. That's not high-effort.
 
Anonymous
1 message moved to Trash
 
@Mego Actually, without adding F(), it would've taken way too long
 
Anonymous
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ That's not the optimization
 
I told you I'm bad at golfing
I tried macroing __VA_ARGS__
 
Anonymous
Then why do you expect upvotes?
 
10:44 AM
For new-ness
 
Anonymous
No.
 
Anonymous
You're begging for upvotes for your bot account. That is definitely not okay.
 
as in creativity
 
Anonymous
Copying from an existing SO answer isn't creativity
 
What about the time needed to stumble upon the SO answer?
 
Anonymous
10:47 AM
Nope.
 
Maybe I should write a passive aggressive challenge on the number of rule pedants in TNB.... :P
 
Anonymous
I'd be happy to donate a closevote
 
(who put their political opinions in a challenge earlier :P)
 
Anonymous
Not me?
 
damn, hash collision
 
Anonymous
10:50 AM
I haven't written a challenge in nearly a month
 
You know what? I'm just going to fake-bounty that answer
IF that's not against some obscure rule
 
Anonymous
It is
 
I'd be darned
Well actually
Should I see if the policy is there for enforcement?
Or how it would be enforced?
 
Anonymous
24
A: How should a bot earn enough reputation to perform the actions necessary for that bot?

Shog9I think it's stupid. Of course, I'm not a big fan of bounties under any circumstances... But abusing the sandbox to get rep into a sockpuppet while preventing others from using it for its intended purpose is pretty clearly not a purpose bounties were ever intended to serve... Same goes for Prote...

 
Anonymous
You absolutely would be suspended for using a bounty to funnel rep to a sockpuppet. A PPCG-specific answer: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/11241/45941
 
10:55 AM
what if I hold a bounty that says "+50 rep to the answer with this sha hash"... just kidding
 
Anonymous
2 messages moved to Trash
 
Anonymous
That's enough warnings
 
12:00 PM
2
Q: Imaginary Parts of Non-Trivial Riemann Zeroes

MegoIntroduction According to the Riemann Hypothesis, all zeroes of the Riemann zeta function are either negative even integers (called trivial zeroes) or complex numbers of the form 1/2 ± i*t for some real t value (called non-trivial zeroes). For this challenge, we will be considering only the non-...

 
Hello
 
yee
Look at this awesome monospace font feature I have found
[the awesome monospace font feature]
 
I think that font is reserved for sarcasm
 
Ohh
 
Which means you've used it correctly
 
12:25 PM
0
Q: Calculate Knuth's up arrow notation

Matthew RohInspired by Expand exponentation. Knuth's up arrow notation is used for big numbers such as Graham's number. If we look deeper, we can see how it makes big numbers. One arrow means exponentiation. e.g. 2↑3 equals 2^3 = 8. Two or more arrows means repeating the instructions of n-1 arrows. e.g....

 
Oh great
 
Hi :) Does anyone here have a suggestion for a task I can do in Python for practice... I've used it a bit and can do basic stuff, but I'm definitely a beginner. Something involving reading and writing to csv-files and number processing would be nice... I'm not a fan of tutorials, I like to have a bigger task and just start with trial and error :)
 
@StewieGriffin @NewMainPosts
*Evil laugh*
Looks like no bad feedback
But no good feedback either
Which means
Not enough views yet
At least its not downvotes=views
 
0
Q: Data structure for time constraint and memory constraint

Prasad SWhat is the best approach to store and search for the primitive data types? Data structure that can tackle both time constraint and memory constraint? websites/books from where I can get clear knowledge on these things?

 
12:46 PM
@MatthewRoh I think maybe I'll go for the n-queens problem, and exporting the resulting board (first found) to a text file... :)
 
Heh
Is my challenge too hard
Oh
Positive feedback
I didnt even sandbox that one :\
 
@MatthewRoh Are you asking me? Or someone else?
 
Uhh
You and everyone else
 
It is definitely not too hard! It's quite trivial really...
 
0
Q: addition of odd and even numbers

dxdenito raymars Reverse the order of the digits in the number. Take the first, third, ... and every other odd digit in the reversed digits and sum them to form the partial sum s1 Taking the second, fourth ... and every other even digit in the reversed digits: Multiply each digit by two and sum the digits if the...

 
12:52 PM
Oh great, a noob getting heit
 
1:17 PM
Do we need a tag
> You've asked 6 questions recently, some of which have not been received very well by the community
ಠ_ಠ
I couldnt do anything about that, apparently people doesnt like memes
 
Don't post meme challenges, then
 
@MatthewRoh Why did you tag your Knuth arrows challenge with ?
 
Idk
 
That's not a very convincing answer
 
1:36 PM
Sometime I cannot understand myself
 
then how should we?
 
^
You're supposed to put tags that you know fit the challenge. If you miss some it's not that bad someone might fill them in
Putting tags whose subject you don't understand is bad because it most likely incorrectly tags that challenge
 
Okay then
I somehow thought the tag fits it
Does the chat have full html support
Or at least can I know how bots does these stylish stuff
 
If you had read the description of the tag you would have found a link to complex numbers, which even if you don't know them would have made it apparent that they have nothing to do with this challenge.
 
:o
I knew it, but I somehow thought it fits and I dont even know why
 
1:45 PM
My simple guess is you don't know complex numbers.
 
I'm bored
 
I like the fact there are good questions which are not sandboxed
(not to mention mine)
 
Oh looks interesting
@MatthewRoh how big numbers should my program support?
 
Hmm
The output will not go over 2^32-1
But you could actually ignore that for shorter length i think
 
2:13 PM
Huh, apparently the reduced Planck constant ħ can be interpreted as a unit of angular momentum
The units work out, at least
Also, fun fact: The average human is approximately 2 × 10^-94 Planck densities
 
2:29 PM
0
Q: # or ## for language name/program size

12Me21I've seen people use # (h1) and ## (h2) on the language name and program size in their answers, but is one of them considered better?

 
3:05 PM
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Ask the owner(s) of Beep Boop Maggot, not me.
 
3:35 PM
1
Q: Fewest (unique) characters for Turing Completeness

Julian LachnietRelated: What is the minimum set of characters with which you can write any valid python program? Summary: For any given language, what is the smallest amount of unique characters for your language to be Turing-Complete? Challenge: For any language of your choice, find the smallest subset o...

 
3:53 PM
Odd. I've been getting a lot of upvotes on very very old answers.
Like I just got two upvotes on an answer from a year and a half ago, and the question wasn't bumped or anything. Kinda suspicious.
 
I've been getting that here or there as well.
 
4:10 PM
@Dennis I have been trying to find a good challenge for me to use Jelly on. I need it to be simple but can't find any
@@AdmBorkBork trying to find the requirements for a lang to be turing complete
any ideas?
 
speaking of cough "exceedingly trivial questions" cough
30
Q: Leak Memory in as Few bytes as possible

Wheat WizardYour task is to write code that will leak at least one byte of memory in as few bytes as possible. The memory must leaked not just allocated. Leaked memory is memory that the program allocates but looses the ability to access before it can deallocate the memory properly. For most high level ...

 
@ChristopherPeart Computationally speaking, or practically speaking?
 
Computationally speaking
Trying answer the challenge that was just posted in BF
 
@ChristopherPeart Most old challenges are quite easy and don't have Jelly answers yet. If it's just for practice and not for posting, just pick a new one and don't look at the answers. As a rule of thumb, the more answers a challenge has, the easier it is.
 
Ok thanks.
Do you need [] in BF to be turing complete? I don't think you do.
 
4:20 PM
@AbelTom Windows 95, 0 bytes Just let it sit idle at the desktop for a while.
 
@AdmBorkBork haha
@AdmBorkBork Never used it though, is it that bad?
 
@ChristopherPeart Without [] there isn't any way to do logic.
 
@AbelTom It was a marked improvement over Windows 3 in terms of graphical interface and usability. Definitely. But, it was huge, monolithic, and kludged together in really funky ways.
 
Esolangs lied to me
Wait I just read it wrong :(
 
4:35 PM
[ ] + - < > should be sufficient for TC for Brainfuck. You don't need I/O.
 
If you have wrapping cells you don't even need -
 
Oh, that's true.
 
@DJMcMayhem do you still have that perception?
 
You only need two characters if you use three per instruction.
 
And with wrapping memory I don't think you even need <
 
4:48 PM
I multi posted on the challenge with 3 different answers I hope that is OK
 
@KritixiLithos I don't think finite-tape BF is TC.
 
Ah, I see
 
@AdmBorkBork doesn't it all depend on the compiler?
 
No, not directly, because being TC is a feature of the language and compilation is a feature of the implementation. It gets a little fuzzier here at PPCG, because languages are defined by their implementation.
So, if you can find a BF compiler/transpiler/interpreter/whatever that has just those four symbols and is demonstrably TC, it would work.
But I don't think you can make it TC with just those four symbols. Hence my comment.
 
Gah
I will always lose my rep on stuff like that. I get one thing wrong and -4 rep.
 
4:58 PM
Right, for BF to be TC, it has to either have BigNum cells or infinite tape
If it has a finite amount of states it can be in, it's a finite state automota, which is nearly the lowest computational class there is.
 
@ATaco What's this "RProgN 2" in TIO doing?
 
@BusinessCat if tape wraps you dont need < too
 
@betseg That's what I said earlier, but apparently that's not the case
 
@LegionMammal978 It's a really crappy version of RProgN that isn't close to finished. It's poorly implemented and documented, and you shouldn't use it.
 
The memory is finite so it isn't TC
 
5:11 PM
@KritixiLithos shouldve read all the transcript lol
 
Technically, no language is TC since the computer you're running it on has finite memory.
 
@KritixiLithos so c isnt TC too?
@Pavel ninja'd
 
@betseg No, it can't solve the halting problem
So technically none of the languages are TC, case closed :P
 
We consider C to be TC though because A) For most practical purposes it's safe to assume infinite memory, and B) that's a hardware limitation, not a software limitation.
 
k got it
 
5:14 PM
@KritixiLithos Even given infinite memory, it's impossible to solve the halting problem. It's not soveable by any machine, even theoretically.
 
@Pavel With advances in AI, I think it may be possible some time in the future
 
@KritixiLithos It's not solvable by a human in all cases though.
 
And the person who solves the halting problem will post it on PPCG and we will finally get noticed and get our design
 
No, the general halting problem is provably impossible to solve.
 
Why? How?
 
5:16 PM
For crying out loud, that's what lead to the "invention" of the Turing Machine (and thus Turing Completeness) in the first place.
 
I don't remember the exact proof, but the idea is to create a paradox where a theoretical halting-problem solver has to say a machine halts and doesn't halt at the same time.
Something about feeding it into itself.
 
@AdmBorkBork Hey, some of us us aren't computer scientists. I hadn't heard of Turing completeness or the halting problem before I joined PPCG.
 
o.0
 
^^ Same case here
 
Sure, sure. Sorry.
Let me try again.
 
5:19 PM
Same case here too...
 
Ahem. You guys are all one of today's lucky 10,000!
 
Same, even though I'm studying computer science...
 
Turing Complete doesn't mean "It can compute anything", it means "There does not exists a machine capable of computing something this one can't"
 
@AdmBorkBork Exciting, but I doubt you'll be able to match Mentos + Coke.
 
brb, making esolang based on dumping Mentos into Coke ...
9
 
5:21 PM
@MitchSchwartz no. Why do you ask?
 
@AdmBorkBork I didn't know I wanted this until now
 
So, the halting problem. Really briefly. You're given a method of enumerating all possible programs, kinda like MetaGolfScript. This is (basically) a Turing Machine.
 
There was this really smart guy named Chomsky (I think) who created a hierarcy of computational classes. Everything in a computational class could compute everything that a lower class could, as well as something new. Turing-Complete is the highest achievable computational class.
 
Then, you can setup a function h(i,x) that gives output of 1 if program i halts on input x, and 0 otherwise.
 
Does anyone here have a proof that Jelly is TC?
 
Anonymous
5:24 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer Jelly can interpret brainfuck
 
Yeah, I need an interpreter so I can add a link to in my deleted answer, so I can undelete it.
 
'Interpreting BrainFuck' isn't proof of Turing-Completeness. For example, check out my new esolang, NTCBF. It has one command: b, which interprets the input as brain-fuck. It's not TC, since it can't do anything else, given 2 and 2 as the input it can't add them.
 
Then, we can setup another function g(i) that gives output 0 if f(i,i) is 0 and is undefined otherwise.
An easy way to do that is to if f(i,i)==0, then return 0; else loop as pseudocode.
Since we've got a method of enumerating all possible programs, there exists some program that represents g
 
@AdmBorkBork Wouldn't it be else undefined?
 
Sure, undefined, loop infinitely, whatever.
 
5:29 PM
It should be else halt
But yeah, works to.
 
0
Q: Interactive interpreter within the language

Hal TThis question is designed with Python in mind, but it can work in any interpreted language, and maybe more if you're creative. The challenge The code, when run, must ask for a text prompt from the user. Once the user provides text, the string will be interpreted as a statement in the language, ...

 
So then we take this some program, call it e, and feed it back into this construction.
Then, we've got two possibilities.
f(e,e) = 0 and so g(e) = 0. In this case h(e,e) = 1, because program e halts on input e
or
f(e,e) ≠ 0 and so g(e) is undefined. In this case h(e,e) = 0, because program e does not halt on input e.
 
@AdmBorkBork Why is h(e,e) = 1? It could be 0 for all we know
 
I'd argue computational classes are more intresting than seeing diet coke and mentoes, but maybe that's just me.
 
In either case, we've shown that f and h are different. Since f was an arbitrary function, that means that no such h can exist (i.e., no general algorithm for deciding halting).
@KritixiLithos Because we defined g to loop forever if f(e,e) isn't 0.
 
5:33 PM
But there isn't any relation between f and h
 
Precisely.
We defined h as 1 if it halts, and 0 otherwise.
We defined g as 0 if f(e,e) is 0, else loop forever.
 
youtube.com/watch?v=92WHN-pAFCs <-- It's slow and a little silly, but the best proper explanation of the halting problem proof I've seen on YT.
 
Since f is any arbitrary function, we can pick h as the arbitrary function.
 
Anonymous
This is kind of a drawn-out approach to explaining the undecidability of general-case halting
 
But the result of h(e,e) doesn't have to be the same as g(e), it could be different
 
5:37 PM
It is different, that's the rub.
We've defined g to output 0 if the f(e,e) is 0, and to loop indefinitely otherwise.
Since f is arbitrary, let's substitute h into it.
So, g outputs 0 iff h(e,e) is 0.
Meaning that h(e,e) has e doesn't halt on input e.
 
Anonymous
Let H(P, i) be a function which returns 1 if program P halts on input i, and 0 otherwise. Write a program X using H, whose input is a program x, that outputs 1 if H(x, x) = 0, and does not terminate otherwise. Thus, X terminates iff x does not. What is the output if X is run with input X?
 
@AdmBorkBork Sorry, I meant same. The result h could be the same as g.
@AdmBorkBork But you mentioned earlier that h(e,e) is 0 when g is undefined
@Mego Is h supposed to be the same as H?
 
Right, but that can't happen.
 
Anonymous
@KritixiLithos Yep, typo
 
Because for h(e,e) to be 0, that would mean that g(e) is undefined.
But the only way that g(e) is undefined is if h(e,e) is not equal to 0.
 
Anonymous
5:43 PM
Either X does not halt, therefore X would halt, or X does halt, so X would not halt. Both are logical contradictions, which means there is an issue with our assumptions. Our sole assumption is that H(P, i) exists, therefore H(P, i) does not exist, meaning the halting problem is undecidable. QED
 
I always try to use QED as the the final 'therefore' in a proof ;-;
 
Anonymous
That's not what it means
 
Anonymous
QED stands for "quod erat demonstrandum", meaning "that which was to be demonstrated". It's used to signify the conclusion of a proof.
 
@Mego I'm getting confused with all the Xs, which ones are supposed to be lowercase?
 
I know that's not what it means.
 
Anonymous
5:48 PM
@KritixiLithos The lowercase xs are the inputs to X (and thus the inputs to H vis a vis P). The uppercase X is the program.
 
But it feels right when I'm writing.
 
Anonymous
I suppose I could've used ys instead of xs
 
That's why I went with gefh
 
@Mego You've only used capital Xs in your last statement (or as far as I can tell). "X does not halt, therefore X would halt" doesn't make sense to me
Wait, that's supposed to be the proof, let me reread everything
I get it now, but IMO X is a stupid program. What if X was redefined to halt when h(x,x) halts and not halt if h(x,x) doesn't halt?
 
Sure, there are plenty of oracles
 
5:55 PM
X might be a stupid program, but if the halting problem is solveable, X is possible which is the contradiction
 
It's pretty easy to see if a program with a particular input halts. You can walk through the steps yourself by hand with a piece of paper.
But you can't construct a general method of solving that.
 
Well, it's much easier to prove it does halt than it doesn't halt
 
Yeah, that's true.
/afk getting some lunch
 
@DJMcMayhem How is the proof going?
 
It's not
I've been super busy
 
6:04 PM
no problem
 
X won't be able to solve the problem anyway because it will result in an infinite loop. X needs to calculate h(X,X), in other words, whether or not X halts when given X as the input. To calculate this, we need to find out the result of h(X,X) because it will give the result of program X run with input X. This results in an infinite loop and I see your point
 
I've had no time for PPCG recently, it's kinda sad. :/
 
:(
er not sure why I had an empty reply to pavel there sorry pavel
 
K
 
6:29 PM
Have you guys herd of BAHFest?
 
Yeah it's pretty funny, though I haven't watched much of it
 
6:41 PM
(on an archive not the main site)
 
@DJMcMayhem "Incredible" on a vim answer is high praise coming from you. Thanks! :)
 
also @Doorknob and @quartata this might interest you
academic paper about ascii graphics in roguelikes
 
"Sign Up to download" no thank you
 
Anonymous
@KritixiLithos First off, H always halts. It returns a 1 or a 0. X halting when the input doesn't halt and vice-versa is key to the construction of the paradox.
 
@Doorknob :D I thought about writing a vim answer, but I had no idea where to start.
Using <C-a> and <C-v> to construct arbitrary characters is beautifully simple and really obvious in hindsight
 
6:57 PM
@DJMcMayhem The first iteration was just <C-v>o01234567<esc>d@. Then I went from there :P
 
Why the o?
 
No 89?
 
@DJMcMayhem Octal, to reduce the number of necessary digits.
Also doubles as a way to enter insert mode.
 
6:58 PM
You answered both questions at the same time
 
@Riker Neat!
 
@Mego I get it now. I was just trying to find a loophole to escape the paradox
 
Only a little bit of time left on the uncracked "Change the code, change the sequence" cop submissions.
 
7:27 PM
@Doorknob yeah
@ATaco 1 minor note about the prettifier: it makes messages that have html formatting (or vim keystrokes) taller than usual, screwing up the orientation of the reply arrow
it's higher than it should be
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SparklePonyTry to do the following challenges using only one character. You can use the one character as much as you want, but you are disqualified if you use more than one unique character. Functionality Write a program to do the following: Take two numbers as input. Evaluate the first number to the ...

 
7:44 PM
Question: I am making GitHub app, anyone have ideas on what profile page should display? I've got the obvious like bio, name, username, avatar, but idk what else is important
 
follow/unfollow?
and organizations they're in
 
oh good idea
(This is for current user's profile page though)
 
ah
a link to get to your repos?
 
Should it display all repos?
 
hm
maybe an open-able dropdown?
 
7:46 PM
I don't think dropdowns are really the style of iOS
 
hm okay
then just a button that opens another page
like one of those slide things
the current pane slides to the left and the repo pane appaers
 
I was thinking I could show pinned posts or like top 5 and have yeah, and have a "show all" repos
however I do have an entire tab dedicated to showing user repos
 
ooh good idea
@Downgoat then just make a "link" to there?
 
@Downgoat Is the app itself in a GH repo?
 
@KritixiLithos yeah, but it's private.
If anyone knows swift 3 and would like to contribute I'll be happy to add you
 
7:49 PM
I deleted XCode a long time ago
 
D:
 
@Downgoat I don't :( I'd be happy to test if you need somebody
I have an ipad
 
It was taking up too much space and each update was tons of GBs
 
@Riker :D ok will do when ready
though I haven't actually tested on iPad :|
I don't want design to be like streched version of iPhone but I think that's how it's gonna be >_>
 
lol it's okay I can test for ya
@Downgoat fine with me
 
7:52 PM
@Downgoat I was making an Android app that looked fine in portrait mode. Once I switched to landscape, eww
 
then disable landscape that's easy fix
@Downgoat also: maybe your stars?
and whose following you/you're following
 
@KritixiLithos hm, I never thought about that
I could do like a segmented control
 
it's currently portrait only right
your app
 
well it supports landscape but it basically is only streched version of portait
Making like side by side lists on iPad, while only one column in iPhone is like hardest thing possible on iOS :(
 
:(
 
7:56 PM
In my app, landscape was just too compact, and it was especially worrying since I have coupla Spinners (ie a dropdown box thingy)
@Downgoat In Android, I think you can use Fragments to do some magic stuff
 
this is ios tho that doesn't help
 
yeah but android uses Java which is evil
 
^
 
JFrame and JGoat and JSheep was bad enough
 
@Downgoat Hey, the documentation for making "your first app" with XCode was bad, no offense. But the android docs are much more thorough and have lots of stuff
 
7:59 PM
how is this?
@KritixiLithos most tutorials explain things really badly, once you grasp idea of ViewControllers, and Views, it's really simple and really intuitive
 
What about followers?
 

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