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6:00 PM
They could use a slightly more concise list iterator if this is meant for children :/
 
Do they really not have even a "for number in range" loop?
 
Nothing I see in the control section like that anyway.
 
That... doesn't help young minds very much :/
 
The closest is a "repeat x times" block.
 
@Geobits Your link reminds me of the one thing I dislike about Scratch - the dependence on Flash
 
6:02 PM
The Digital Design class in my school uses Scratch. I'm lucky that I don't take Digital Design :P
 
They used to have one, and it's still in the code, but it's a "red block".
 
Just got the electorate badge! \o/
 
This means that it doesn't have a category, and thus doesn't show up in the block listing.
 
@trichoplax Have you looked at LÖVE? It's pretty nice for quick projects if you can get past the luaness of it :P
 
It used to be a control block before it was removed. But they didn't delete the code, because that would break some scratch programs.
 
6:03 PM
Did they say why they removed it? Seems like a nice thing to have :/
 
@Geobits Too many blocks spoil the broth.
It's still possible to put it in code and it will still work, but it's not accessible from the blocks menu.
 
Yeah, but think of the children! :P
 
@Geobits Will have a look. Was going to ask for a link but the umlaut seems to help the search so it came out first result...
 
No kids like searching through docs to find deprecated blocks. Well, no kids I know anyway ;)
@trichoplax You can also search love2d (old name iirc) if you don't have an easy-umlaut keyboard setup.
 
@Geobits If I'd known that Scratch 2 files were saved in .zip format, I would've learned JSON much earlier.
 
6:07 PM
@Geobits Ah handy. Copy and paste worked for this time...
 
Scratch is transpiled javascript, right?
 
No idea. It uses Flash online and Adobe Air for the offline version (at least for 2.0)
 
@Geobits I always look up the best ads on YouTube, even if I don't really watch the superbowl.
 
@mbomb007 Yeah. It kinda makes paying $5M (plus tons in production costs) for a 30 second spot seem sillier than usual.
 
@TimmyD So if you open the email, you fail the audit?
 
6:11 PM
The ones I've seen, you only fail if you click the link or whatever within the email. Just opening it doesn't usually count as a fail.
 
how many times do you think you've had dairy products from the same animal twice
 
@trichoplax I meant the indicator, "Rainbolt is typing...". On that note, I used to work in tech support and I could see the actual content of what the customer was typing. Sometimes this expedited things, and sometimes it felt unethical. Some people would start typing "I do not understand why I have to" and then start deleting and type something much nicer.
 
@GabrielBenamy You might need to rephrase that question. unclear what you're asking
 
@Geobits nowadays I view suspected spam that I can't be sure is spam from the subject line, via use of view source
 
@Rainbolt lol, yeah that's horrible
 
6:13 PM
They could also see me typing, but not the content. I learned that if you start typing, they pause, and so I started composing in Notepad and then pasting into the chat.
 
@mbomb007 over the course of your life, how many times have you consumed a dairy product that originated from an animal you've already consumed a dairy product from?
 
@ais523 It would appear that Node runs programs until all timed events are complete, which makes sense. I guess that makes my life easier because I don't have to handle them separately in Node.
 
@GabrielBenamy I assume two glasses of milk from the same carton doesn't count? ;)
 
@mbomb007 Hah. I would wager it was completely unintentional, since all the spam and rules and whatnot is controlled by the messaging team.
 
@Rainbolt I use screen sharing to train and support people. They share their screen with me so I can see what they are typing into the chat window. I frequently just interrupt with the reply before they complete the sentence.
 
6:15 PM
@Geobits sure, let's go with that
 
@GabrielBenamy All of them but two or three times, I'd imagine.
 
It must be eerie on their end.
 
@Rainbolt Wow. No we have nothing that creepy. And not even the "is typing" indicator. I think it's important that people know which things are public and which are private. I'm uncomfortable with recently discovering that stars (on questions) are public, even though private upvotes and downvotes makes it easy to assume stars will be private too
 
@trichoplax You can see your favorite questions list in your own profile, so I assume others can too
 
@trichoplax @Pavel The Open Source community were working on a Scratch HTML5 version on Github.
 
6:16 PM
@Rainbolt You can see your own votes, too.
 
@trichoplax Chat stars or main site post stars?
 
Oh, I guess my point is invalid then lol
 
I assume that everything I do on SE is public, which is why I log out of it whenever I'm not actively using it
 
@Rainbolt Yeah, stars are private
 
6:17 PM
I let my dog use it when I'm not actively using it. He mostly just hangs out in chat though.
2
 
@ais523 I assume that everything I do on Google is public, which is why I use Tor whenever I'm not actively using SE.
 
@Rainbolt I imagine lots of people assume they are public too - it's just the fact that many could assume they are private that bothers me
 
oh, I typically try not to use Google at all :-)
 
@mbomb007 We're talking about stars on questions (favorite questions)
 
I don't have a Google account, which is harder nowadays than it sounds
 
6:17 PM
I assume everything I do on the Internet is public, which is why I randomly search for odd items, to make it look like I'm a bot.
4
 
@Rainbolt I know. They're private.
I went to your profile and I couldn't see yours.
 
trich just said they are public...
 
@wizzwizz4 I'd like that to be a thing
 
@mbomb007 I can...
 
6:18 PM
I know that it's possible for me to see my own votes, so I assume diamond mods can too
although I assume the general public can't
 
Oh nvm. I was on the wrong tab.
 
Never mind that one of my three favorite challenges is my own. I'm definitely not a snob.
 
@Rainbolt I can see it, and I'm sure I saw something on MSE about it recently, so I think everyone can
 
@TimmyD I actually got an addon that did that for me once.
 
@Rainbolt I'm just hurt none of them are mine :( sniff
 
6:19 PM
@ais523 We can't see your votes (up or down)
 
@TimmyD Then I saw that it was searching for stupid stuff like "Justin Beiber".
 
Google constantly asks me if I'm a bot both at home and at work. I don't know what I do to trigger it.
 
Justin Beiber Justin Beiber Justin Beiber
 
@Rainbolt Maybe you're really good at moving your mouse in a straight line.
 
I have to enter a captcha to continue searching
 
6:21 PM
Do you navigate everywhere using the Tab key?
:D
 
Ctrl+T and start typing to search for stuff
 
Maybe Google sees that you are too efficient.
 
The thing that asks you if you are a bot is a bot with a cruel sense of humour
 
@trichoplax Or maybe it is lonely and wants to find another bot.
 
> is a bot with a cruel sense of humour learning how to portray itself as not a bot.
 
6:26 PM
I sometimes use question stars as a temporary way of keeping track of a question. That doesn't always mean I like it, which makes the public list of questionable usefulness...
 
I thought that's what they were for
sort-of like watchlists on Wikipedia
I starred my polyglot question to make it easier to track, and nothing else so far IIRC
 
I imagine a lot of people assume it means "I really like this question". I certainly find myself thinking that a question with lots of stars must be popular (and it usually is, which reinforces the assumption...)
 
that's what the upvote button is for though
 
The tooltips don't seem to match up with usage.
Upvote: This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear
Star: Click to mark as favorite question
 
6:31 PM
A long time ago, we were told (see the revision history) that if you mark a question as a favorite it would alert you to updates on that question. So you could basically be alerted when someone else posts an answer. That never got implemented, and then it got pulled out.
 
@Rainbolt Alerted with a notification?
I'm glad that's not implemented.
 
Yes. Why are you glad?
 
@Rainbolt I was wondering about that. I had the impression I should be getting notifications as if it were one of my own questions, but I couldn't remember why I thought that, and why it wasn't working...
It made sense to me - you favourite a question and then you hear when it has a new answer or comments
 
That would be fine as long as you could toggle it on/off.
 
You have to mark it as a favorite to it in order to get the notification. If you don't want notifications, don't mark it as a favorite. Seems easy enough to avoid the feature if you don't like it.
You want a toggle on/off for the toggle on/off?
 
6:34 PM
A toggle for notifications. As it is, I can visit my profile to see which of my favorited questions have updates. So it's useful to favorite them, but not so much that I want notifications on all of them.
 
@Dennis Could you please pull 05AB1E?
 
That's good justification
I don't ever visit the list in my profile, and I kind of assumed nobody else did either
 
@wizzwizz4 I'm disappointed to see that not only is it deprecated, but it was a run only version - you couldn't use it for writing new programs
 
Favorites in general seem pretty useless if you don't look at them every so often :P
 
I never look at mine. I just starred them and then occasionally wondered why I hadn't got any notifications...
 
6:37 PM
@Rainbolt That's not true. I get notifications on my questions for a new answer.
And I don't favorite my own questions.
 
Turning off notifications for your own posts seems like a separate issue...
 
@Rainbolt Because I just want them in my favorites, I don't want notifications.
 
@trichoplax You can use a text editor and a zipper for that. Or TOSH.
Or ScratchEdit, but that's not JavaScript.
 
Using a text editor ruins the entire point of Scratch, doesn't it?
 
26
A: Mark questions to receive notifications and updates?

devinbRather than continue to comment on other's posts. I've decided to open myself up to downvotes by answering. There have been at least two recent metaso questions related to this issue. Allowing Editor to notify downvoters Which is about being able to be notified on edits on only a single post. ...

 
6:39 PM
@Geobits ... No... Scratch is not just the interface. It's the language too!
 
@wizzwizz4 I can, but I was hoping there would exist a version for people just learning Scratch, where the drag and drop interface is most of the benefit
 
@trichoplax There's one of those already. Gimme a sec...
 
Yeah but the entire point of the language is that it's a graphical interface that kids can easily grasp. If you're going to scrap that, you might as well use a "better" language imo.
 
Like javascript!
 
I said a better language.
8
 
6:41 PM
@Geobits Now I understand that you were joking the whole time.
 
I never joke about javascript. It's too mean.
 
FWIW, I rate javascript above scratch.
 
@Adnan Pulled on v1. It was already up-to-date on Nexus.
 
@Geobits Incidentally, the default elementaryOS text editor is called Scratch.
 
I just checked out what elementaryOS is. Seems worthless.
 
6:43 PM
!chembot flip
 
What was that supposed to do?
 
!chembot flip @e[type=Player,name=!wizzwizz4]
Who's laughing now?
 
Nobody knows
 
I don't get it.
 
@Dennis Oh nice! I'll check that out.
 
6:44 PM
@e[type=Player,name=!wizzwizz4] looks like Minecraft script
 
certainly is, it's an entity selector
 
But what is chembot?
And what is it flipping?
 
!chembot help
 
!chemobot flip
 
i hope it's not a breaking bad assistant
 
6:46 PM
Can you stop that?
5
 
who else here gets food comas after eating a large meal
 
I get food commas
much worse
 
in Chemobot, 13 secs ago, by Chemobot
/( .□.) ︵╰(゜益゜)╯︵ /(.□. /)
 
I get food, drink, and Oxford commas.
 
I get food interobangs.
Those suck.
 
6:48 PM
I get food ^Gs.
Those hurt.
 
i eat carets
 
tfw there's no sarcasm punctuation
 
Sorry to interrupt the important discussions going on, but would anyone know what the most mature CnR leaderboard is that we have?
 
@MartinEnder It's not on Programming Puzzles & Code Golf Meta yet? :-O
 
meta only has my standard leaderboard
 
6:49 PM
> Irony punctuation is any proposed form of notation used to denote irony or sarcasm in text.
 
and even for that one I doubt that it contains all of the fixes that people have added in their own challenges
 
the original smiley was meant to convey sarcasm - that guy hates emoji btw
 
@wyldstallyns All old men who used computers at that time do :P
 
@MartinEnder there was a good one on PPCG Jeopardy
 
what is a mature CnR
 
6:50 PM
But I haven't CnR'd in so long that I have no idea what the most current one is.
 
@Flp.Tkc oh, it's sortable, that's nice
 
I don't know if we have a scoreboard which shows robbers' scores though.
 
That reminds me: I've been thinking about hosting a server-side leaderboard somewhere. Crawling though all answers requires a lot of bandwidth and is rather slow (for me, at least). The requests could be cached, interpreted, and only the relevant parts sent to the snippet.
 
@wizzwizz4 turns out it is on meta
 
I assume there's another CnR coming, then?
 
6:54 PM
8
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin EnderCops and Robbers: Significant Whitespace code-golfcops-and-robberswhitespacestring For the purpose of this challenge, we'll define whitespace as only linefeeds (0x0A) and spaces (0x20). Note that most languages and regex flavours consider many other characters as whitespace as well, both inside...

feedback is welcome
 
re: hashing builtins
I recently created a language which checksums parts of the program in order to determine what to run
 
oh CnR is Cops-n-Robbers
 
I thought it'd be useful for all these "radiation-proof" challenges
I hadn't thought of the impact this might have on CnR, though
 
@MartinEnder Is feedback of the form "y u no tabs?" welcome, or are you looking for something else?
 
ais523 still esoteric after all these years
 
6:59 PM
@Geobits it's very welcome, but I may ignore it anyway :P
 
to be fair, the language was almost entirely created as a joke
but I decided to give it a few PPCG-practical uses while I was there
 
@ais523 if you want to make a radiation-proof language, just make it collapse every run of identical characters into a single copy of that character ;)
 
because I have something of a compulsive tendency to want to make languages interesting
@MartinEnder that would work, yes, and now I'm wondering if there are esolangs which already work like that
the thing about A Pear Tree, though, is that it can probably also survive insertions or edits of characters (although you have to start worrying about hash collisions before long)
on another note, how do you print an integer without leading newline in Common Lisp?
I'm having problems finding documentation
 
@Geobits thank you
 
I live to serve.
 
7:03 PM
I have a feeling that if I can figure out how to write the program in 7 in the first place, it'll be very hard to crack
but writing anything in 7, apart from very small quines, is painful
 
in Chemobot, 36 secs ago, by Chemobot
Welcome to The Periodic Table Leg! Here are our chat guidelines and it's recommended that you read them. If you want to turn Mathjax on, follow the instructions in this answer. Happy chatting!
Chemobot's finally lost it.
 
@mınxomaτ interesting
 
> The Periodic Table Leg
Where did it get that?
 
@ETHproductions Erm... Nothing to do with me...
 
@Geobits seriously though, do you think including tabs would improve the challenge?
 
7:15 PM
I'm not sure how many languages distinguish spaces and tabs in a significant way, so it's not a big deal or anything.
 
@MartinEnder Hexagony answers are going to be too easy to crack :(
 
@Riley Hexagony cops are basically impossible, yes
 
@Poke Wait, was that sarcasm?
 
@MartinEnder Also, how hard do you think it'll be to brute force a crack?
 
that only depends on how big the cops will get. if brute forcing turns out to be too easy, cops can always move to bigger programs. the ways to insert the whitespace will grow very quickly.
 
7:19 PM
If you're brute forcing, how do you know if an attempt is successful? Run it and wait for it to finish? That sounds like you'd be trying to solve the halting problem.
 
@JamesHolderness you'd have to put a time limit on the execution, yes
maybe I should add a rule that a valid program processes a 100-character string in under a minute or something
or 10 seconds or so
 
@mınxomaτ haha no >.< I didn't know that even existed. Thanks for the info
 
The trick then is to get your program as close to the limit as possible to slow down any brute force attempts.
 
i've genetically evolved answers, but has anyone used a neural net to produce an answer?
 
the same applies to any CnR ever. I think most cops aren't cracked by brute force anyway
(or only by a brute force over a much smaller space, e.g. some parameter in the code)
 
7:22 PM
That's what I was wondering. I never would have thought brute forcing was feasible.
 
or does anybody use DEAP rather than brute force?
 
I'm doing some Project Euler problems. The question asked for 100, but I did 1000 by accident. I even got recursion limit and edited the limit for 1000. What now? ;_;
 
@wyldstallyns if you do, you'll probably get a lot of votes on your robber's answer :P
 
yeah i've been wondering which opcodes would be most useful for typical golf challenges
 
@betseg I don't understand the problem. Rerun for 100?
 
7:25 PM
@MartinEnder I did and it said correct but the thing is, I overdone it by accident and I'm saying that it was easier than I though it would be :p
 
Which problem number is this?
 
20 ;_;
 
they get harder. a lot.
that said, the optimal solution will almost always be efficient enough to handle larger inputs than the one asked for as well.
the hard part becomes finding an efficient solution at all.
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

tuskiomiWHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? How low can you go? - Signal Limbo. Sometimes we need a low voltage, sometimes we need a high voltage. Let's design a VDC power supply! The challenge is simple, with 2 lines (+5V and GND), Create a Variable DC power supply on a standard breadboard that ranges from +12...

 
^ I have a feeling that's going to turn into the electrical engineering version of Mathematica
there's surely got to be a DIP through-hole charge pump somewhere
and amplifiers are trivial, although again, finding one with four pins (which I think is the minimum for one usable in this challenge?) might be difficult
 
7:36 PM
4
Q: Significant Whitespace: Cops

Martin EnderFor the purpose of this challenge, we'll define whitespace as only linefeeds (0x0A) and spaces (0x20). Note that most languages and regex flavours consider many other characters as whitespace as well, both inside and outside the ASCII range so you might not be able to make use of the correspondin...

0
Q: Significant Whitespace: Robbers

Martin EnderThis is part of a Cops and Robbers challenge. Go here for the cops' part. For the purpose of this challenge, we'll define whitespace as only linefeeds (0x0A) and spaces (0x20). Note that most languages and regex flavours consider many other characters as whitespace as well, both inside and outsi...

 
@feersum I really am not following the language you're using in this comment. Could you explain what you mean?
 
OK
Do you know what RET is in assembly?
 
@feersum I understand that that's a "return" instruction, but as for understanding, not very well.
 
Well the idea is that the site shows that my function, when compiled, consists of nothing but a return instruction.
 
@feersum So the actual algorithm itself is not used at all.
Thus breaking the rule I had set.
 
7:40 PM
The behavior of my program is identical to one that does execute the algorithm.
 
@feersum In what way? It does not execute the algorithm whatsoever.
 
How is its behavior different?
 
@feersum None of the steps are executed, no list or array is returned.
 
I can write the results onto an array, and the same optimization is still possible.
 
7:43 PM
@feersum Not without hard coding.
 
What do you mean? It can take the input parameter just like it does now.
 
if you have to disallow hardcoding explicitly, there's a good chance your spec is suboptimal
 
@feersum Can you prove that, given some input x, your function returns the Collatz sequence up to x?
 
Can the answer be a function and not a program?
 
@feersum Yes.
 
7:47 PM
That might work better, to require all answer be functions.
 
@feersum But what about languages who don't define "functions"? (i.e. simple languages such as ><>)
 
It's a fastest code. You don't use esolangs.
 
@feersum No, but you could.
 
Who cares?
 
There is no ban against it, nor would I want to restrict it.
49
A: Things to avoid when writing challenges

Martin EnderExplicitly disallowing or disadvantaging arbitrary (classes of) languages This has become much rarer recently, but the occasional challenge by a new user still includes it, so here as an answer to point them to. Disallowing arbitrary languages (or classes of languages, primarily things like "no...

 
7:50 PM
Yay, I've got a significantly faster iterative solution for the sortable years challenge ... that is the same 71 bytes as my brute forcer solution ... :-/
 
These issues are all about code-golf.
If you use a program, do you have to print the entire list?
 
@feersum No where is that question restricted to only CG.
@feersum Yes, so it would be inherently disadvantageous, but not unfeasible.
 
@VoteToClose I don't think requiring answers to be functions is arbitrary if it helps you run the challenge.
Especially if it's very unlikely that anyone would even want to participate in a non-production language.
 
I guess you could allow that, but it seems more likely to be misleading and unhelpful to competitors, rather than assisting their desire to use Brainfuck.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Okaydokay, then.
 
7:53 PM
^ this is MATLAB
virtual internet-high-5 for anyone who get's the reference=)
 
@VoteToClose Also, please provide information about the testing environment.
 
 
The link given seems to be only accessible from your account.
 
wat
wat
 
@feersum Yup yup.
 
7:55 PM
@flawr *Internet high-five*
 
@Pavel I used that as an explanation for why to use surds only five hours ago! ;-O
 
wat
wait
is this
wat
how the hell
wat?
 
I'm a Mathematica person rather than a Matlab person. You get the answer out exactly by default and then you can do N@% if you want a decimal approximation.
 
wat is YOU!
 
7:57 PM
@wat I am finding it difficult to resist editing a @ before two of those messages.
 
@Pavel well most programmers are matlab people, because it saves memory and who cares :P
 
wat
I just did a thing
and my thing broke
actually nevermind
...
i'm not making much sense
 
@wat +1 for signal:++noise.
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I think most programmers aren't matlab persons either.
 
@flawr *relatively
 
7:59 PM
I think only Luis Mendo (including Dennis) use MATL. Ever. Also, DJMcMayhem and quartata later said they use it.
 

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