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12:30 AM
@PhiNotPi you should specify counter clockwise traversal
this sounds quite fun though
however, it makes me wonder whether a code golf would be interesting that just wraps a string into a rectangle
i.e. given abcdefghij 4 3 it should produce
abcd
j  e
ihgf
at the same time, your challenge would still be quite interesting in one dimension
what do you think about splitting that up?
 
I've edited in a little thing about counterclockwise.
PS I really have been that bored though.
I guess it can be made one-dimensional.
The interesting thing is that the points seem to form groups along the edges.
 
for N=3 the result is pretty chaotic
I get:
XXX.XXX.X
.       .
.       .
.       .
.       X
.       .
.       .
.       .
X.X.X...X
well let me know if you're going to make it one dimensional. I think the rectangle-only challenge would be pretty fun too. it seems deceptively simple, but I don't see any approach that would be obviously the best.
 
12:50 AM
Do you know what N=4 is?
 
I haven't tried yet
now I did
even more chaotic
(can't be bothered to type it up)
 
okay
 
this seems like an interesting maths problem
anyway, I'm off to bed
later
 
'night. hi
 
hi
 
12:55 AM
what's up
 
@MartinBüttner I'm working on a 1D spec. I guess you'll see it in the morning.
We were looking at a code golf challenge in the sandbox.
 
just read it
looks pretty interesting
i doubt there's anything to do but brute force
but it doesn't seem too long
 
I'm translating it to 1D right now, per Martin's suggestion.
 
oh. well, i thought it was pretty clear that you'd do it in a circular array and then print separately
so in that sense, the output format is kind of a distraction
 
He says we can probably make the format a different challenge (given a string, wrap it in a square)
 
1:08 AM
but for yours... I think you need N = 2^k or else it will fizzle out early
 
I added a spec for the 1D version: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/4880/2867
 
Oh. You already noticed that
now i think there might be a bitwise operator solution
 
I would be impressed if there were a simple bitwise solution.
 
i'm working on it now
not code, just an answer
yeah, you're right
 
I could probably post the challenge soon (the 1D version, I think I'll drop the 2D version).
It's about as straightforward as golf challenges can get.
 
1:23 AM
yeah
someone will write a 14 character solution in golfscript
 
Can you look over the current entry? Does it look ready for posting?
(just made a minor edit)
 
one sec
you still say "completed square"
you might want to explicitly say that the input is N and the output is a string of 2^N characters
and maybe give a limit on N
 
What do you think is a good limit on N?
@EricTressler ^?
I'm putting 0-15 inclusive for now.
 
1:45 AM
sorry, i was making noodles
yeah, 15 seems reasonable.
or maybe even 10; the output is going to be too big for anyone to want to deal with.
if you like, you could make the output instead the last index an X was placed
and then make N go up to... i dunno, 20,24
 
No, I kinda want to see the pattern itself.
 
then maybe N = 10 is more reasonable, since that's already ~8-12 lines in a post
up to you
 
Maybe there should be some indicator of the last dot placed.
Bumped it down to 10.
 
when i was doing them by hand, i put an @ instead of an X for the most recent new mark
 
I'll do that.
How about now?
 
2:10 AM
You know what, I'm probably going to sleep over it.
Sleep is like time travel to the future.
 
sorry, I'm headed to bed
I'll probably be around tomorrow. I'm trying to relearn java, it's very painful :(
 
I'll post it sometime in the morning, I think.
Bye!
 
 
2 hours later…
4:16 AM
Checking out top answers [here](http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/47644/randomised-list-formatted-nicely). J 7 bytes, Java 190 bytes, ...
Sure, J has built-in permutation so even more unfair to compare but still funny for me. :)
 
brackets swap
 
hmm, doesn't work somewhy
 
remove the dot maybe
 
needs the "http://"
 
when I copied the link from your message, it had http
 
4:30 AM
the same text works now for me too (in sandbox chat)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:35 AM
 
6:54 AM
no it hasn't, it just needs some more time
I actually started looking into those data structures (but I'm quite busy)
btw, google code jam is coming in a month
 
 
2 hours later…
9:25 AM
@PhiNotPi Awesome!
Although I'm not a huge fan of the @. This change really requires everyone to just apply the definition brute force. Without the @, someone clever might be able to come up with an explicit formula after all.
(But maybe, that's your intention.)
@aditsu CJam needs an operator that does oNo
 
oh no!
 
(that's a link)
 
9:52 AM
CH is trying to answer a question :O
 
do you think the fish program bb*oao qualify for the "yes" problem?
or the charcodes should be reached without arithmetic?
 
10:03 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin BüttnerWrapping Words around a Rectangle code-golfstringascii-art (Needs a better title!) (Inspired by a challenge draft by PhiNotPi.) You're given a width W > 1, a height H > 1 and string consisting of 2(W+H-2) printable ASCII characters. The task is to print this string wrapped in a rectangle of t...

 
10:15 AM
@Optimizer probably not... I think he's reading challenges and looking for holes in the spec quite regularly
 
@MartinBüttner The helloworld example is 1 byte short
 
thanks, forgot the trailing space
 
11:15 AM
@MartinBüttner Look at my current spec.
I got rid of the @ because a decided that a non-brute-force solution would be interesting.
 
11:28 AM
@PhiNotPi
"Then, I follow a pattern. Starting at the most recently plotted point (A), I advance to the next plotted point on the line (B) (wrapping around the line if necessary). Then, I advance to the next point (C) on the line. Then, I plot a point half-way in between points B and C. "
this would make it easier to understand for me
and you could add the letters to the example too
the example confuses me even more...
hmm, I still misunderstood
@PhiNotPi Is this correct?
Let's call the most recently plotted point A and the three following (already plotted) points B, C and D respectively (wrapping around the line if necessarry). The new plotted point will be the point half-way between points C and D.
and plotting points with X and @ and non-points with . (point) doesn't help to understand either :)
 
11:52 AM
Are there any meta posts on assuming the input is pre-stored in a variable?
 
12:09 PM
@randomra Does the current edit look good?
 
12:23 PM
Ping
 
Pong
 
@Sp3000 yes, search for "default snippet"
 
Hm... what about assuming values are pre-existing on the stack? Does that also count as a snippet?
 
you need to enclose it in parentheses or assign it to a name or the order of ops fail
 
12:47 PM
@MartinBüttner Do you think I can post Fractal Points on a Line now?
 
@Sp3000 yes that's also a snippet unless you define some sort of function that expects the values there (as that is how function parameters work)
@PhiNotPi let me have another look
 
Hmm k, I remember having a discussion with someone who had a ><> answer which expected the value on the stack, and it seemed to me they thought it was the norm (though I was sure it was the opposite)
Also, more recently: link
 
@PhiNotPi I don't understand why you limit the input to 10. Are you trying to encourage base-encoded answers?
 
@PhiNotPi apart from what Peter just said it looks good to me, but I don't understand why you picked an incorrectly sized line for the example
 
1:08 PM
:/ number triangle's churning out a lot of invalid Python answers
 
why do I feel like a bad guy
Timtech posted a TI-BASIC answer to a question, which now has 6 upvotes
but it's totally broken
I've found multiple failures to implement part of the spec and execution-breaking bugs
should people really be upvoting an answer that they haven't verified is even close to correct?
 
I upvote the occasional well explained, interesting, looks-like-it-should-work answer. But I mostly stick to ones I can run myself.
 
Just wait to see what Timtech has to say in response?
 
And most of the time it results in a fiddle or a repl and I comment with a link to the working fiddle or repl
 
yeah, I'll definitely wait to see his response
 
1:15 PM
Then everyone else knows it works too
 
@Runer112 I think that's unavoidable to some extent. For example, I don't have an APL interpreter, so I can't test any of the APL answers, but I'll still upvote them because they're often awesome. :)
 
but it kind of irks me that an answer that's wrong in at least half a dozen ways can collect so many upvotes
there are online APL interpreters
 
Hmm, I should find one, then...
 
tryapl.org is one
made by dyalog itself I think
 
But yeah if everyone only upvoted answers they tested then Martin's Prelude answers would always be flat 0 (with the occassional 1)
 
Thanks! Anyway, I think the best thing you can do if you find a wrong answer is to post a comment saying it's wrong, so more people don't upvote it (without checking, at least).
 
I guess that's true
it seems almost a bit malicious for Timtech to have posted this answer, though
I haven't run it myself, but just from looking at it, I'm like 99% sure it'll crash every time
and it doesn't even make an attempt to implement at least 2 or 3 parts of the spec
 
Not sure what the general consensus is on editing the answer so that people who already voted can also remove their votes... on one hand, it's basically working around a poorly-thought SE feature, but on the other hand, it does kind of come across as a dick move. :/
 
I could be a counter-dick and make a TI-BASIC entry that works lol
 
> I haven't run it myself, but just from looking at it, I'm like 99% sure it'll crash every time
Maybe you should run it before talking much more about it? No offense, just saying... isn't that what you're complaining about? That people are judging before testing?
 
1:21 PM
well
on the third line of code, he's trying to assign a non-string value to a string variable
 
I haven't even looked at the answer you mean, but I can say that I've seen some stuff here that I never thought would work.
 
unless I'm having a total brain fart, that's an error 100% of the time
hmm, let's see if I can manage to test it
I don't actually have a physical calculator, so that'll make it a bit harder lol
 
@IlmariKaronen 1) If editing to golf someone else's code is not allowed, I'm pretty sure that falls under "dick move" nicely and 2) How often do people go back to a question to remove a vote?
 
just tested it
I'm now 100% sure it'll crash 100% of the time
 
:D
 
1:25 PM
can't store the number 999 to a string
and I'm still like 99% sure about the other 5 or so bugs I've found
which depend on execution actually getting past the third line
 
Link to this answer?
 
5
A: Write an interpreter for 99

TimtechTI-84 Basic (Calculator Script), 376 373 bytes If it runs on a TI-84 calculator, you'll be able to use it on a standardized test... so it's useful ;) Minimum operating system version - 2.53MP (MathPrint) due to the summation sigma #Initialize instruction pointer :1->I #Initialize variable set ...

It'll take him an awful lot of work to fix the answer, but hopefully it happens
 
I've resized the example.
@PeterTaylor do you think 15 is okay (output of 32000 characters)?
Or 20 (a million characters)?
 
Why have a limit at all?
 
Sorry, apparently my edit was lost.
Re-edited
 
 
1 hour later…
2:45 PM
@BigToes Thanks for the suggestion ;)
 
No prob, TeethBones
 
3:09 PM
@PhiNotPi It's better. I wouldn't say it's super clear but it's ok.
"It's better than good. It's good enough." :)
 
3:43 PM
Wow, even Minecraft is too violent for some: pressandupdate.com/…
 
Yeah, read that the other day, wtf
 
mario is too violent too
in hindi, mario means "hit me"
 
God forbid they ban video games. Then they'd have to play with really dangerous things like Legos. You can make a toy sword and actually hit somebody with it.
 
I love that they compare the issue of GTA V with Minecraft
 
Yea, the animal cruelty thing is weird, too. It's not like it teaches you to just run around killing stuff. You farm and kill things for meat, leather, etc. You know, what people have been doing for thousands of years to survive.
 
4:05 PM
being a vegetarian and general nut case, I never kill animals in games, this means I have to be Egyptian in Age of Mythology, so I can be sure to have Farms from the first Age
wolves in AoM are a problem, because they are unrealistically aggressive, so I have to go to great lengths to build walls around them to avoid accidents
 
When you say "animals", do you mean realistic animals, or anything that moves, mythological or not? I can see the latter being very hard in many games. Also, does that include people/troops?
 
oh, no, only the nice real world fluffy ones that aren't being controlled by an evil entity
I've never had a problem with removing people, I'm not a big fan of humans generally
 
So you'll kill rabbits iff they're summoned up by the local wizard to torment the townsfolk? Got it ;)
 
yes, in AoM there is a God Power which makes wolves appear everywhere, it's very sad :(
 
Ok guys, you heard it here first: VisualMelon would rather kill children than wolves.
:D
 
4:11 PM
don't spread that info around ;)
 
poor doorknob
 
thankfully it's illegal to display the killing of children in games and television, I think
or something like that, I know someone will think of a couter-example in short order
 
Illegal where? I can't think of a good example now, but I'm sure there is one...
I'm sure it would depend on the jurisdiction.
 
In minecraft you can kill baby villagers and baby zombies
 
I'm sure it depends on the age of the kid, too. Most jRPG protagonists are pretty young, for example, but is 14-15 a "kid" in that regard?
@TheBestOne Yes, but minecraft is obviously the most violent game ever.
 
4:13 PM
no, a 14yo goat is quite old, I think
 
Depends on the "kid"
 
more sensibly, probably not
 
Some adults are still children at heart.
 
@TheBestOne like @Geobits
 
Having a kid definitely helps with that :)
 
4:25 PM
@randomra Do you think that there is a better way to explain it?
 
Were there children in Black & White?
 
@All Do think my sandbox question is complete and understandable? meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/4880/2867
 
D should be the next plotted point, right?
 
You've still got a limit on N.
 
Another user suggested that I put a limit on it.
2^15 is a pretty large output.
 
4:33 PM
I think that was Eric? Did he say why?
Being large doesn't mean it's hard to encode.
 
Well, I removed the limit.
 
Should we be allowed to return the line instead of printing it?
 
I guess that's okay.
 
@PhiNotPi If I created another Evolved bot to conquer the new Dwarf, would I have to post it as a new submission or could I replace the first Evolved bot?
 
You can replace it.
Either one is fine.
 
5:09 PM
is there any way to get an email upon responses to answers/comments?
 
You could probably make a script to do that.
 
I'm about to post Fractal Points.
Any objections?
 
yes
 
(just kidding)
 
Yes?
 
5:21 PM
no
 
1
Q: Fractal Points on a Line

PhiNotPiSometimes, when I'm really bored (really bored), I like to draw a line segment and draw points on it. First, I draw a line segment of a certain size, which is 2^N for some value of N. The line will be represented by a series of . characters. ................ Then, I plot a point at the left ...

That was a really quick upvote.
 
I'm really fast.
 
hmm, I wanted to give an extension access to my stackexchange account so I could get inbox notifications
but I can't actually log in to stackexchange
I can log in here and stackoverflow, but not stackexcahnge
 
This has been the quickest I think I've ever put a question through the Sandbox.
 
races Martin
 
5:38 PM
@PhiNotPi Is a char array allowed as return?
 
7
A: What's a string?

steveverrillI agree with the wikipedia definition. It's a sequence of characters. As the name suggests, it's one-dimensional. I program a lot in C and sometimes in Pascal, which both implement strings in different ways. C doesn't have a string type, only char[] with a string by convention being terminated b...

 
@Optimizer race ahead
 
@TheBestOne What happens if you were to print the char array?
Would it look the same as if you printed a string? If so, I think it could be okay.
 
[X, ., X, ., X, ., ., ., X, X, X, X, X, ., ., .]
 
I think I'm going to say no. (Any other opinions in the chat room?)
 
5:46 PM
@PhiNotPi If that's your cutoff, maybe you should add that to the meta question I linked. So far I haven't seen any other opinions besides "it doesn't matter", so it would be good to make that one heard somewhere other than chat.
 
Well, I don't really feel like overriding a default, so I guess I'll allow a char array.
 
I mainly accepted the current answer because there wasn't a single answer that said anything else. If your argument is compelling and people like it, the "default" can change ;)
Personally, I like char[]s, since Strings are wordy as hell sometimes :P
 
Wait a second. System.out.println(char[]) formats the char[] as a string.
 
Why yes it does: ideone.com/1bTn90
 
I never knew that.
 
5:50 PM
So I guess there's no issue :)
 
Yay!
I think I'm going to allow char[] solutions to this challenge, but I might make a post in that meta thread.
 
I think "does it print as a string" is a pretty good idea, to be honest.
 
An observation about the first 5 lines: I looks like the first 1/4th of each line is the same as the line above it.
 
does anyone have a fun example to add for meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/4881/8478 ? I'd like to add some chicken-egg style sentence that you can start reading in at least two places.
 
"x leads to y leads to z leads to ", replacing letters with appropriately funny words.
 
6:01 PM
exactly
I was thinking about the star wars one, but the original isn't really cyclic
it's also a bit depressing :D
 
"rock beats scissors beats paper beats " Not funny, but it's the obvious choice.
 
it's also an odd number of characters :P
 
My count is 38. Are you counting the last space? Or before my edit to fix it?
 
ah I copied the wrong version
didn't even notice :D
 
Should we assume that the given sizes will always match the length of the string, or is padding/truncating needed?
 
6:05 PM
no you can assume correct sizes. I thought the first sentence made that clear
 
Yep, I just now read that. That's what I get for skipping to the examples first ;)
 
heh
what do you think about "Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock beats..." for the title?
I'm not too convinced, but it's better than what I've currently got
"And the characters in the string go round and round..." (is that nursery rhyme/children's song a thing in the states?)
 
Yea, it is. Terribly bad title, but hey, why not? ;)
 
what's wrong with the current title?
 
rock beats

s        s
t        c
a        i
e        s
b        s
         o
r        r
e        s
pap staeb
 
6:12 PM
it says what's the task is about which is good
 
@Geobits I chose 11x10
 
what about a variation on marching ants?
(marching strings?)
 
@Geobits well do you like or don't you now? :P
 
Good job @Optimizer
 
@MartinBüttner Is it just me or does this question literally answer itself in the title? boardgames.stackexchange.com/q/23377/6692
Don't even have to read the question body
Question: When is "at the beginning of the next end step"?
Answer: At the beginning of the next end step.
 
6:27 PM
well...
I guess "the next end step" wasn't clear to the OP
honestly, I think it's a legimitate question. just like when you say "next Friday" (on a weekday before Friday) you might be referring to "Friday next week"
 
It could potentially mean the end step after the next end step I guess. Or the first end step after 11:00 AM on the second Tuesday of this March.
 
ah damn, ft does not work
 
@MartinBüttner Seems like "next <whatever>day" is a special case
Like, if someone told you "I want you to kill the next cookie you see." you wouldn't skip the first one then stab the second one.
(That originally said child, but I decided it was too violent)
 
true, although I think this is closer to weekdays, since both cases refer to time periods in a fixed cycle. I guess new players don't necessarily expect magic card texts to be written which as much care and deliberation as they are
(I think I didn't when I first started playing)
 
It gets worse when you start learning the meanings of every keyword
 
6:32 PM
why "worse"?
 
"Whenever a creature dies" really means "Whenever a creature is moved from the battlefield to the graveyard" in the rules.
Everything gets expanded. A half knowledge ends up being more dangerous than a complete knowledge.
So the cards are meant to be understandable, and they are. But then you start knowing a little too much, and everything gets complicated.
And then you get it down finally and WotC changes it again to make it more newbie friendly
 
@Optimizer codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/47588/… ... it's a bounty ... it's his rep ... he can do with it whatever he wants ... if the bounty said "for Mac's outstanding answer" he could still award it to Runer's answer, and it would be his own business.
 
So am I not even entitled to ask ?
 
oh sure you are, but it sounds like you're trying to hold him accountable :P
 
no, I was proving him wrong
read again
 
6:36 PM
@Rainbolt did you mean to say "than complete ignorance"? because otherwise I'd hope that's always true with everything ;)
 
Well yes. Half knowledge ends up being worse than total knowledge and total ignorance.
 
yeah right ^^
 
Oh, right. You're right lol
What I said is obvious and what I meant to say is something wise.
And you know that I am wise, so you understood what I meant to say.
I just listened to Howard Stern interview Madonna. I basically think of Madonna and Lady Gaga as the same person now.
Howard Stern peers into people's souls, and it turns out that neither of them have one.
 
Oh, did I miss @Sp3000's 10k rep mark? Congrats!
4
 
@PhiNotPi Each line is obtained by inflating the line above and then flipping some .s to X.
@MartinBüttner The British version uses stone instead of rock...
 
6:54 PM
i+++1 is a valid expression in java :)
 
@PeterTaylor huh, I didn't know... well now that would be problematic ;)
@TheBestOne is i+++++j?
 
so I was examining Timtech's recent TI-BASIC answer some more
found a few more bugs, and another failure to implement something
 
no, but i++ + ++j is
@Runer112 Have you actually tested his answer?
 
not only does his answer have like 10+ bugs, but it's not even tried to implement three parts of the spec now
yes
well, as much as I can
considering it will basically always crash in its current state
 
Have you actually tested it on a TI-84+ calculator though?
 
6:58 PM
yes
I don't know why he even posted it. Someone might miss implementing one part of the spec, but... three?
 
he keeps doing stuff like this :/
 
I was beginning to wonder if this was a pattern
this can't have been an honest mistake
at least, not if his brain was functioning properly lol
 
He'll show up in here sometimes, smile, then leave.
 
and I'm sure he didn't even miss reading the spec
there's a comment: #Gotta expand that -+ pattern
then he just proceeds to completely skip doing that
of the 5 operations in the 99 language, I've now confirmed that he has implemented 0 of them properly
including no-op
2
 
When asked what golfed TI-Basic was, Doorknob responds like this about a year ago.
Apr 4 '14 at 1:13, by Doorknob
An untestable language with submissions that don't solve the problem but nobody realizes it
 
7:05 PM
I'm trying to write a TI-BASIC answer now
to prove that the language isn't actually totally broken and can be used properly
 
finally we found Runner112 to test Timtech
2
 
if you do so competently
 
(I can haz cookie for finding a chat quote that is 11 months old?)
 
@Rainbolt NO
 
Not Oatmeal cookie? Fine with me!
 
7:07 PM
No
 
A couple of months later
Jun 11 '14 at 18:26, by mniip
By the way, I see @Timtech is recently active again, did he ever leave any comment on his made up language?
 
:D
I think there was also some discussion about that around the time of Unscramble the Source Code
 
He's also every dirt block's worst nightmare. I mean just look at that terrifying profile picture.
5
 
Your arch-nemesis
 
I should really look through some of his old answers
although if I find anything, there isn't really too much to do about it
 
7:20 PM
downvote
comment
 
yeah I guess
 
if he doesn't fix it and it's really bad, flag as NAA
 
wow, and my answer on meta to delete as NAA received such a negative response
 
oh right, forgot that was a thing
what's a good grace period to give them to fix their answer before flag
 
I don't know... if it's been a few days and I see he's been online since the comment, I'd flag it
@Optimizer what answer?
 
7:23 PM
recent meta post by CH about newer languages
 
I think that's a different problem.
 
Does anyone know how to make the line numbers in IntelliJ start with 0 instead of 1?
 
ctrl shift s line number ?
or shift shift line number
 
Neither work :(
 
hmm, your keybindings must be different
 
7:33 PM
The last lets you toggle line numbers
 
let me do it
i dont see such option too
 
Should I ask on SO?
 
did you search on google ?
 
No hits were even close.
 
then I think there would be no direct way
maybe a plugin though
 
7:45 PM
I'll see if the Relative Line Numbers plugin will work. If it doesn't I'll ask on SO.
 
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