ELL's Cabin

Jim Reynolds

13:22

@Dam chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/23055569#23055569

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hello!

Jim Reynolds

. . . is about relative clauses.

:-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I wish I could've written that in italic.

I mean at that time.

But I was too lazy to fix it with either formatting or adding an s.

But you have very good eyes. :D

Thanks!

Ah, another way to fix it could be "... is about Relative Clause".

I wonder if native speakers can get away by doing that, making it a proper noun.

Jim Reynolds

You is welcomes!

Damkerng T.

That's not even B1 English.

Jim Reynolds

13:29

Can't be about it singular, proper or not.

Damkerng T.

I think most of A2 learners know that "You is" is incorrect.

@JimReynolds Hmm... really?

@JimReynolds How should I fix your sentence?

Jim Reynolds

The movie is really about robot.

Damkerng T.

The movie is really about 'Robot' is fine with me.

Consider: The movie is really about 'I, Robot'.

Jim Reynolds

If Robot is a specific robot.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I prefer to think of that as "proper noun".

Jim Reynolds

13:31

But a chapter about a single, particular relative clause?

Damkerng T.

I thought of it as the name of the topic of the discussion at that point in the discussion.

Jim Reynolds

I mean, is there a clause named that?

No.

It can name the chapter.

Damkerng T.

A name is a name is a name, I think.

Jim Reynolds

But we can't say that something about (something in general) is about (singular countable noun).

No. Every word is a name for an idea.

:-)

I am not 100% sure I gave a correct rule, or gave the most useful rule, but no about relative clause.

Damkerng T.

Okay, let's get this straight. This is just for the sake of our discussion, 'cause actually I opted to leave the error there. (It's not the only error in that message, if you look carefully.) I think a name is a name, and we sure can talk something about a name.

Jim Reynolds

13:36

I iz sure of that.

Well, is the chapter about a specific relative clause?

Damkerng T.

Though fixing it with as s would be the norm, I think it's possible to fix that with either relative clause or Relative Clause or "relative clause".

It's not the chapter.

Jim Reynolds

Oh. Let me revisit the text.

Damkerng T.

It was about a specific kind of relative clause (which we weren't really sure whether it was a clause, according to MAR).

It was about a kind of what-supposed-to-be-a-clause in another language.

Jim Reynolds

I'm only discussing for fun, by the way.

Damkerng T.

This is me being fun too! :D

I love argumentation.

Jim Reynolds

13:39

Hmm... <<processing>>

I thought so!

Damkerng T.

13 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

Ah, another way to fix it could be "... is about Relative Clause".

That wasn't for me or my error of me trying to save my face or anything like that.

Jim Reynolds

on the pages I can see, none of which unfortunately is about relative clause

Damkerng T.

That was me being curious.

13 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

I wonder if native speakers can get away by doing that, making it a proper noun.

Jim Reynolds

You were reporting that nothing on some pages related to the topic of relative clauses.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds nods -- I might rephrase the whole thing if I were to rewrite it.

Jim Reynolds

13:43

No.

Damkerng T.

I was reporting that I found nothing about relative clauses in the pages I could see.

In the Farsi section.

I don't even know if there was a sub-section for that because a lot of pages were missing.

Jim Reynolds

Imagine scanning some pages to see if there is anything about buildings.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hmm... wait, what's your point?

HarryCBurn

Hullo!

Damkerng T.

That I should've written it as: relative clauses

?

Jim Reynolds

13:45

You think you can say you found nothing about ... Yes.

Only that.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought we went past that point ten minutes ago!

You missed my point.

Jim Reynolds

Oh.

Reviewing.

Damkerng T.

I knew your point right the first time you mentioned it. :-)

I knew that because I thought that myself.

Jim Reynolds

Ah, another way to fix it could be "... is about Relative Clause".
I wonder if native speakers can get away by doing that, making it a proper noun.

Damkerng T.

The second after I pressed ENTER to send that message up to the chat room.

@JimReynolds That's another point. :-)

Jim Reynolds

13:48

You were making a joke?

Damkerng T.

Not really. I was really wondering if it was possible.

Like, in some other book written by some other native speaker.

Let's say, how about something like this?

HarryCBurn

After reading the logs, I still can't work out what the topic is :(

Damkerng T.

> In this chapter, we are going to discuss several sentence patterns. One of them is the Relative Clause.

Jim Reynolds

No go, sir.

Damkerng T.

@HarryCBurn It was an error correction.

HarryCBurn

13:50

Ah.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I see.

Jim Reynolds

Even we are trying to understand.

Damkerng T.

How should I fix it?

Jim Reynolds

What we've raised is interesting, though.

Damkerng T.

> 1b. In this chapter, we are going to discuss several sentence patterns. One of them is the relative clauses.

Jim Reynolds

13:52

What can be a proper name.

No.

Damkerng T.

> 1c. In this chapter, we are going to discuss several sentence patterns. One of them is the relative clause.

Jim Reynolds

Well....

If we mean a number of types of relative clause(s).

HarryCBurn

> In this chapter, we are going to discuss several sentence patterns. One of them is the/a relative clause.

Damkerng T.

Let's say I want it to mean that relative clauses are only one of the patterns.

HarryCBurn

Sounds the best to me.

Jim Reynolds

13:54

We are going to discuss the Asian languages.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks!

HarryCBurn

I'm sure it's not a proper noun.

@snailboat It's also been disproved, unless the change is really, really gradual.

Shout-out to 14 hours ago ;)

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds For me, I may accept that if the author defined Asian Languages in a previous chapter. For examples, -- Oh, you fixed the el!

@HarryCBurn Ah, shouting into the past!

Jim Reynolds

... Only one of the .... We need to use singular. Relative clause.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no! Boiling frog!

@JimReynolds nods

I guess maybe I got influenced by Geoffrey Leech. In one of his books, he systematically used the Present Simple in contrast to the present tense.

(But he made it clear why he chose to write it that way in that book in the first chapter, iirc.)

And it has a weird effect. Suddenly, Present Simple becomes a proper noun!

(for me, I mean)

Correction: He used `Simple Present', but 'present time'.

> [...] It is a well known fact, for instance, that the English Present Tense, although it refers mainly to the present time zone (see §5 below), can also refer to past and future time as well. To overcome this difficulty, I have made use of a typographical convention whereby formal grammatical categories are marked by initial capitals (Present Tense, etc.) to distinguish them from corresponding categories of meaning or reference (present time, etc.). [...]

Oh, he added s to Tense!

> However, in English the major formal distinction of Present and Past Tenses can be associated with two major time zones, ‘past’ and ‘non-past’, so that future time is subsumed under ‘non-past’.

So I guess, he'd write 'Relative Clauses' to mean relative clauses in his conventions.

Jim Reynolds

14:14

It depends on whether he is referring to multiple countable things, or a topic in general.

HarryCBurn

@DamkerngT. :)

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds nods

Jim Reynolds

Ha. Yes. He explains clearly his choice to mark those with capitals.

Damkerng T.

Exactly! -- (I really like his book!)

Jim Reynolds

It is easy to think of them as proper names.

Sometimes the difference eludes me.

If I'm thinking of a particular person, why not There's the Person."?

Damkerng T.

14:19

I think because we use person (generally, and in that sentence) as a common noun.

But in Here's Jack, it's clear that Jack is a name of thing (i.e. someone).

Hmm... "a name of thing" is very loose.

A-ha!

proper noun: a noun that names a particular person, place, or thing and begins with a capital letter. “Jane,” “Africa,” and “New Year” are proper nouns.

Jim Reynolds

Ha!

Damkerng T.

"a name of a particular something/someone" would work. :D

0

Q: What is the structure of this sentence containing "that"

I recently asked a question about "usage of that", however I think as I used examples of my native language, I couldn't get a good response Then I decided to post some English sentences containing "that" and ask what is the structure, consider the following sentence: The use of biometric ind...

A content clause?

Or just a typical relative clause?

(Not sure)

> [ The use requires (that) a factor be unique. ]

I think it's a content clause.

Jim Reynolds

I don't know the concept of content clauses!

Damkerng T.

14:36

I learned about it here. :D

Content clause

In grammar, a content clause is a subordinate clause that provides content implied, or commented upon, by its main clause. The term was coined by Otto Jespersen. There are two main kinds of content clauses: declarative content clauses (or that-clauses), which correspond to declarative sentences, and interrogative content clauses, which correspond to interrogative sentences. == Declarative content clauses == Declarative content clauses can have a number of different grammatical roles. They often serve as direct objects of verbs of reporting, cognition, perception, and so on. In this use, t...

Catija

14:48

Morning.

Damkerng T.

@Catija Morning!

Jim Reynolds

15:06

It looks like that's what those are, @Dam!

Hi @Cat

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hmm, let's see.

Freddy

good morning/afternoon/evening

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

looks for a dramatic entrance

Jim Reynolds

Can you see it?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That's good for a start.

Jim Reynolds

15:13

I think I have identified a psychological category that @Cat and @inɒ belong to.

@Dam and I belong to an alternative category, along this trait.

And @sna is meta

Meta is beta', as I'm sure she would say.

Catija

What is this category?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds As in "alternate reality"?

Catija

I'm trying to complain about ELU in a meta post without looking too whiny.

Jim Reynolds

I think that you and our intrepid young chemist believe that one of the most important keys to making things work well is enforcing rules.

You might focus more on doing that than Dam and me.

Although that is not your only focus, of course.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

What? How come @Cat is also included in your lame jokes? Feels jealous

@Catija Put data, and it'd do.

Jim Reynolds

15:17

She gave me ratings for my students, Jim says ICILY.

:D

You two wonderful community members believe that people who violate the norms are problematic, and should be strongly discouraged, even if it hurts some feelings, for the greater good of the community and the site.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

No, I believe they should suffer from a painful death.

Jim Reynolds

In one sense (and absolutely not necessarily more than one!!), you share a similarity with what we call in the US "social conservatives".

Though some "progressives/liberals" can share this same value.

Er, what am I saying? Let me try to press on.

OMG that could have been interpreted as a rather crude and funny typo that I just corrected, above.

Catija

I just like rules. But I want the rules to make sense. I also feel that, to some degree, it's necessary for people to follow the rules, even if it's easier not to.

Jim Reynolds

@Dam and I, on the other hand, again I tentatively theorize now.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well, @Jim, I'll only burn 'em down if they're not discussing the matters constructively.

Jim Reynolds

15:21

Yeah. We all agree more than we disagree on that, I'd say. But to different degrees, maybe.

Or I think we'd think a bit differently in some cases on the best thing to do when there are violations.

I don't think this difference, if it exists, constitutes any kind of problem.

In fact, it could just as well be a very positive thing.

Er, as I was saying, and I do hope I'll finish soon . . . .

O.O

Catija

@JimReynolds Can you give an example of "people who violate the norms"?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@JimReynolds Despite being a molecule, I tend to deal with stuff humanly.

Catija

You can finish first, though...

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Someone who asks a question vaguely.

I never said or implied inhumanely.

Too "soft" causes problems, right?

In any society.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

If a guy has 400 answers and I've seen their politeness and constructive comments somewhere I'm hardly ever going to burn 'em with petty rule violations.

Catija

15:24

@JimReynolds Of course. If you "just let this one slide", eventually you collapse the entire system.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

^.

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

6.

I mean ^.

Jim Reynolds

I think . . . THINK! We might be different, though, in some shades of our thinking about this.

Catija

@JimReynolds Probably. But let's see.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

15:26

HOWEVER

Catija

How do you think about it.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Shush... let him finish.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Cries

Jim Reynolds

I am more likely to feel we need to . . . try to understand where a person ("violator") is coming from.

Catija

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M pets there, there... it's OK.

Jim Reynolds

Is a "poorly"-asked question due to an ELL's difficulty with understanding the guidelines?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

15:27

Understanding is good, not my style.

Jim Reynolds

Or is it ok to ... haha!!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I've always tried to help when I could.

Jim Reynolds

O.O

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

O*O

Jim Reynolds

You're on the defense, MAR, but I never said anything negative about you.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

15:28

No I'm not.

I'm rather tired.

Jim Reynolds

LOL

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

But lines up defense

Jim Reynolds

Let's sing you a song, then.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Salute?

Jim Reynolds

I thought you were joking:

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

15:28

o>

Jim Reynolds

I'm not on the defense!!

Is what someone would say in defense.

Like "I'm not crazy."

Is what someone like me would say.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

K, I'm totally on defense.

Jim Reynolds

I'd put a lot more effort into "helping" people who don't understand, or don't even read the rules.

Catija

@JimReynolds For first-time askers, in particular, I'm OK with helping them figure out how to ask a better question. For repeat askers who refuse to do anything other than say Here's example A, B and C... which is right?... I will not answer but I will not argue with them after trying to curb the behavior. I'm not a mod and I'm not going to change their behavior... but their regular questions with no explanations are not good questions and I don't think they belong here

because they don't even appear to be trying to figure it out for themselves.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I've done that a lot in chem.SE.

But am a bit hesitant about ELL.

Well, since that.

Since the goddamn that.

Jim Reynolds

15:31

I don't disagree, Cat. Hmm... Let me correct myself. And I intended to start out only halfway seriously.

I know I didn't signal that appropriately.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

You never signal anything properly.

Damkerng T.

I kinda a bit disagree, though not strongly disagree, about trying.

Catija

Jim Reynolds

I wonder if I've noticed that a few of us respond in some patterns.

Is that a yellow light?

Accelerates!

Catija

@JimReynolds I don't think it's any of them... Just a signal.

Damkerng T.

15:32

I think I may need to really think about what ELL is really all about.

Jim Reynolds

OMG. You gave me a projective psychological test!!!

Catija

@DamkerngT. How do you mean?

Damkerng T.

Some users say, questions are questions.

@Catija I mean, what is ELL?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Jim Reynolds

We often don't answer in language that "learners" would understand. That's for sure.

Well, or . . . what is a "learner".

Catija

15:33

@JimReynolds :D Is that like the people who have neutral expressions on their faces but when you pair them with happy images, people see them as smiling but if you pair them with sad images people see them as frowning?

Jim Reynolds

Only I have learned everything.

Damkerng T.

Before one user left ELL, they posted a meta post and got a reply along the lines "SE is all about building up databases of Q&A".

Jim Reynolds

Ha. Something like that.

It's like, look at the inkblot. What do you see?

Catija

@JimReynolds We often don't answer in language that normal English speakers understand.

Jim Reynolds

A vagina that wants to consume, me, of course!

LOL!!

Catija

15:34

@JimReynolds Mommy issues much?

Jim Reynolds

Hmm.. Keep producing code, Dam.

LOL

So I don't have to try to complete my ill-formed idea.

O.0

Damkerng T.

Database was the term they really used.

Jim Reynolds

Sometimes I type what I think I'm only thinking.

And?

What's an alternative mission?

Damkerng T.

So I think, different people come to ELL (or other stacks) from different angles.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Holy Mother of nature!

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M updated.It's just like to shake up the battery . — joey rohan 8 mins ago

Catija

15:36

I see a lot of very long-winded answers by certain users, and I glance through them... they're two pages of text, and I don't get what they're saying because they're talking about parts of speech that I've never heard of.

Jim Reynolds

Does that seem a little Matrixy?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Catija Puppy eyes like my answers?

At least, the recent ones.

It's like I'm telling a story.

Jim Reynolds

They are building up a database. We are "donors"!!!! OMG

When is the system going to perceive us instead as parasites???

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds (in Morpheus' voice) "Welcome to the real world."

Jim Reynolds

O . . . M . . . O.

Catija

15:38

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M No... more like this one:

2

A: Use of "go" in passive form

QUESTION: Can we use verb "Go" in passive voice? Here, in this post, I'll show that "GO" can be in passive voice by showing an active/passive pair of sentences, where the direct object of "GO" of an active sentence is passivized to create that passive version. Consider the context of where ...

Jim Reynolds

That's for you, @Dam.

It means "Oh my Oneness."

LOL

We should make fun of each other's ethnic groups' main religions more.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

> Here's, this post, clear voice, I'll show that . . .

Jim Reynolds

We'll certainly bond through it.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

So it's a show, at the very least.

Jim Reynolds

Clear Voice. Isn't that a setting on Dam's Samsung?

Damkerng T.

15:39

@JimReynolds True! It has a Clear Voice!

Jim Reynolds

Clear VoiceTM

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Clear Voice ™

I tanks @snail for her Unicode provider service.

Jim Reynolds

@Cat LOL!!!!!

I'd love to be in my second year of learning English and take that answer home to ponder!!!!

Why do I have all these exclamation marks now?

Looks for a Valium.

Catija

@JimReynolds Exactly. Simple answers is what most users want... some answers are super-overcomplicated.

Damkerng T.

Because the term "learner" in ELL is also loosely defined, I think our users who are learners come from a very wide range of backgrounds.

Jim Reynolds

15:43

And often get tons of upvotes. Well, so valuable to some people. That's ok.

Catija

And look at the question... No content. No context...

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds So I think some of our users really read and think over that!

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Like me.

Sometimes.

Catija

@JimReynolds I think a lot of people upvote because it's long, not because it's good.

Jim Reynolds

If it has pictures.

Damkerng T.

15:44

LOL

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Sure.

But, that's how many people are.

You want to identify them and . . . put them in camps!!!

That's what I started out to say!!!!!!!!! O ... M ... G .....

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@JimReynolds Colorful pictures.

AT least, it works like a charm in chem.SE; OMG I'm exposed.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Like pictures? Like (read upvote) my recent answer. :P

Jim Reynolds

Look, I can draw animals: google.com.tw/imgres?imgurl=http://www.davidkhurst.com/…

Catija

@JimReynolds No. :P Well... I don't think I want to... I'm a realist enough to know that's not appropriate on my part but that doesn't mean I can't wish the site was a bit neater and people followed the rules... I've been on the web and various forums for years and the one thing I've learned is that you can't control other people's behavior. If they don't want to follow the rules, they won't. I will help them learn the rules but after that... oh well.

Damkerng T.

15:48

@JimReynolds A paint-by-number!

Jim Reynolds

I wasn't complaining, or asking for anyone to change, Cat.

Just noticing.

Or maybe noticing.

Damkerng T.

As a software engineer, the first thing I'd ask before working in a project is "Where is the spec?"

(Hmm... that's probably the second; the first is probably "How much?" :P)

Jim Reynolds

Sometimes when we would do or say different things, it's good to remember that we sometimes do different things for the same reasons.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Meh, the first thing I'd say is We're supposed to build this, right?

Jim Reynolds

Yeah. What's our purpose.

My vision is robots, snails, Iranians, and Texans living and loving each other in peace and harmony.

O.O

And jimsug!

And @jimsug

Damkerng T.

15:52

In peace is always nice. It's way better than in pieces.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Draws sword I love you @Jim

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Tough love.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hedgehogs?

Jim Reynolds

Powers on large magnet.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That's why my sword is attracted to your alien belly. O.O

Damkerng T.

15:53

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M But, but, your sword is plastic!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

No, it's real.

Damkerng T.

Aww

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

But it's invisible to robots, humans, molecules, and aliens.

Catija

I have to figure out what type of cupcakes to make today.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

> Last night my TV remote was not working. I chewed the batteries and woh! It still had power left.

How does chewing a battery increases its power? I think it's a 12V pair of batteries.

Catija

15:54

If you were a 20-something soccer player (male), what flavor would you like?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Sounds like battery cupcakes.

Damkerng T.

@Catija I like chocolate and banana. :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Catija Does he like sour fruit?

Catija

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't know what he likes... He's on my pool team and his birthday was Saturday, so I want to make him cupcakes.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Then my choice would be eggplants.

Damkerng T.

15:56

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Huh? Hmm.. strong jaw!

Catija

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M no.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Seriously though, flavors like banana and strawberry never fail @Cat.

Or maybe chocolate.

Jim Reynolds

Peach blueberry pie.

Damkerng T.

Strawberry?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Unless he's allergic to strawberries or what.

Damkerng T.

15:57

Hmm... could work.

Catija

@JimReynolds OMG... the peach blueberry crisp I make is magic, and it's perfect this time of year (seasonably speaking) but it's really challenging to share.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. It's a red fruit, kinda sour, kinda sweet.

-1

Q: Why chewing a battery increases its power?

After rejection of my migration request, I decided to post the question. Basically this question was off topic here : physics.stackexchange-link to question. Last night my TV remote was not working. I chewed the batteries and woh! It still had power left. How does chewing a battery inc...

electrochemistry

We made fun of it back in the Periodic Table.

Damkerng T.

I heard someone did the same thing but with a hammer.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well, the insides of a battery are highly toxic.

in The Periodic Table, 24 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Maybe their grandfather was the last antecedent of shark-humans.

in The Periodic Table, 22 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Wouldn't that initially look like poop, considering that battery has some kinda special coal thingy?

Transcript for