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1:00 PM
When scientists ask very bright physics majors at the "best" universities certain questions in certain ways, answers betray that despite lots of knowledge to the contrary, people tend to think that plants get their "food" from the soil, for example.
 
Ah, don't they?
I mean via their roots.
 
Or when asked to consider what physical forces are acting on a pen that's been tossed in the air at the vortex of an arc, students tend to believe that there is some force still acting on the pen from being tossed by the hand.
Their fuel.
Plants are powered by photosynthesis.
 
nods
I was thinking of "raw materials". :P
 
That what birds have in common is flight.
This is an amazing thing about us
Folk beliefs.
I think they are called, or I forgot. Haha.
When children first learn that the world is round, they conceive of a flat circle.
 
@JimReynolds That's kinda funny. I hope the students will know better later.
 
1:03 PM
Even you and I, if we quickly imagine viewing ourselves walking on the earth from a distance away, we will see ourselves walking "on top" of the globe.
Well, what's interesting is that we so often do, but there are different levels of knowing.
How many people repeatedly press an elevator button when they're in a hurry?
 
@JimReynolds Oh, you know, before my teacher mentioned that the earth is round not flat, I don't even have the concept of "the earth". I mean, it's just "land". :-)
 
Right.
So, the nature of speech.
As a teacher, it was a revelation to really get some concepts more deeply.
 
@JimReynolds I guess (almost) everyone does, even those who knows that it won't do any good!
nods
 
I'd say that 45%+ of my colleagues here, continue to do the same things while believing that they are helping students improve pronunciation. And 45% just ignore it.
 
The same things?
 
1:08 PM
Repeat something more loudly, more slowly, etc.
A million times.
 
Ahh
 
Without ever realizing that the students do not perceive what the teacher believes they are perceiving.
 
A million is perhaps too many! :-)
Oh, yes!
My method is based on another thing.
 
And then teachers revert to private beliefs that learners (especially of a different race!) don't have the right tongues!
 
It focuses on receiving, not producing.
 
1:09 PM
And etc.
Yes!
 
Okay, let's see how well I did. (BTW, you can dissect my speech frankly. I mean as in frank, frank. ;-)
 
Frank Lee? I think he's my neighbor.
 
Here is what I guess or believe. I believe that you can understand about 90-95% of my reading without much problem.
 
Yes. Well the goal is to supply you with information. :D
 
@JimReynolds Is he a cousin of Bruce Lee?!?
 
1:13 PM
Yes. I can tell from the tiny sample I played right away, earlier.
 
@JimReynolds Thanks!
 
General order to tackle pronunciation problems:

1. word and sentence stress
2. syllable structure (final consonants, consonant clusters)
3. vowel length distinctions
4. major consonant distinctions (s/sh, f/p)
5. vowel quality distinctions
6. minor consonant distinctions (This/Thursday v/w)
This comes mainly from my pronunciation guru. Sort of a prioritization for many ELLs.
 
nods
 
I'm sure TRomano will have quite a hard time learning Chinese or Thai.
Hypothetical. :)
 
LOL
 
1:14 PM
Need to change your modal.
 
scrolling back...
 
Will have ...
 
Oh, I see!
 
Suggests that you know he will be learning them.
I think you ... yeah.
 
would have!
 
1:15 PM
Ta dah!
OK. I will listen now!
Shhhh!
 
Listen to Damspeak.
 
Oh, the pre-recorded ones, I think. Okay, I will keep quiet for a while.
 
Haha.
 
Oh, you mean why I think it'd be a bit more challenging for him, learning Chinese and Thai?
I think it's about something I came up and think of as "language distance".
(Which I found out last year that some other people also think of language distance, too. Though I came up with it myself, independently.)
Not languages are the same. For example, I think it's fair to say that a German guy or a Frenchman should find English easier than a Thai or a Chinese guy will find it.
 
1:20 PM
Oh. I see.
Is his native language Spanish?
Romano.
 
I'm not sure, but I assume that his L1 is English.
 
Or at least L1.5. :D
 
Right. I don't know.
 
But some languages are more "connected" than others.
 
1:22 PM
So him as long a distance from Thai as my distance from Thai?
 
For example, if Thai has the word "an" and "apple", "an apple" will never (in theory) sound like "annapple".
 
I thought you were making some comment on something about him in particular.
 
@JimReynolds Possibly.
 
Ah, yes.
 
So, when I read that he thinks speech is just "connected sounds and silences", I thought to myself that there are good chances that he may think that all languages sound the same, just with different phonemes.
Hence, my (non-serious) comment.
One feature of Thai and variants of Chinese is that most of the words are monosyllable.
So, I'd say that the two languages are syllabic-based in speech.
(But some linguists labelled Thai as a stress-timed language, to which I don't completely agree, but I can see their point. Our language is changing. I posted an answer on Linguistics SE about that once.)
Let's see...
5
A: Is Thai a stress- or syllable-timed language, and does it matter?

Damkerng T.I cannot answer this as a linguist. However, being a native Thai speaker, and being someone who educated himself about linguistics much enough to have some idea on stress-timed vs. syllable-timed (acoustic phonetics is one of my particular interests), I believe that I can provide some good inform...

 
1:34 PM
Ah. It's interesting.
I don't have the background knowledge to deeply process it all quickly. But I think I get much of the major points.
For example, I don't even know what prosody is, technically.
I could guess something about rhythm/tempo.
Pronunciation levels

beginner: a learner in early stages of learning the language, whose
pronunciation and general language skills are both still rather low


pronunciation elementary: a learner at intermediate to advanced level in
general language skill, but whose pronunciation is difficult for an untrained
person of moderate goodwill to understand, requiring a lot of reliance on
context and gesture


pronunciation intermediate: intermediate or advanced learner whose
pronunciation is comprehensible to an untrained person of moderate goodwill,
 
To me, it's everything combined: stressing, rhythm, intonation
 
Yes.
If we use a scale like that 1-4, I'd place you in a 4 if I had to choose one.
 
Hey, I like the phrase "a person with moderate goodwill"! -- lol
 
Yes.
 
Thanks!
 
1:38 PM
Though I'd refine that, probably. Some people may have perfectly good will, but are uncomfortable with the prospect of having trouble understanding someone.
 
I know it's still not that perfect, though I'm comfortable with it (my accent) enough.
 
And so may become anxious and have more trouble processing.
Or may not wish to keep their full attention on a speaker.
 
nods
 
ok. Let's see if I can ... just sort of without thinking.
Rate some parts of your speech.
 
pen ready!
 
1:39 PM
The metric is the only one I know how to use, of course: to Standard American English.
That limits it's usefulness to you, of course.
Well, I'm marking some areas.
 
It's okay. I think I've mentioned to snailboat once that at least 75% of my accent should be AmE like.
 
It's a good opportunity to pay special attention, because I don't yet know your voice.
If I listened to you a lot, I'd lose some of my measuring ability, because I'd be used to your speech.
I think there are a few areas where I might use something more like a 3.4 instead of 4
 
paper ready!
 
I'm going to save a file to dropbox.
Well, it was still installing. Here is my first pass, the old way: drive.google.com/file/d/0B_hivi_ChoizNmxZeURMTS1vRkU/…
The ares highlighted in yellow are those that are more like 3.4 - 3.6, perhaps.
Now we can start to think about how!
 
Um... I can't see any yellow!
 
1:50 PM
Oh.
 
trying Wordpad...
Oh, yes. I can see them now!
There is one green too! :-)
 
Green is from the next level. Say 3.6 - 3.8 range.
 
Ahh
 
The yellow are parts that I might have trouble understanding easily.
Green will be very easy to understand, but stronger detection of difference from native pronunciation. More accent.
 
The parts but he does and praise are kind of surprises.
 
1:57 PM
Nether Wadding doesn't count.
 
I don't even know how I should pronounce it. :-)
 
And I would not be primed to understand it from any speaker.
Yeah. Now, of course, this is a very inexact science.
But it's my best attempt to mark what I noticed.
Let's see if there is any pattern either of us can identify.
 
nods
I remember that when I tried to transcribe it, I had a trouble to recognize my own Once.
 
Ha. Everyone knows that phenomonon.
monomonon.
whatever.
O.O
It will be interesting to have snailboat listen to it and look at my attempts to represent my experience listening, then compare.
 
Indeed!
 
2:00 PM
And she will have a much richer vocabulary to describe what she notices.
Let me listen again now.
 
I think the /z/ isn't very clear in my "praise". It also sounds a bit like there is a /t/ or a /d/ after it (because I paused a bit).
 
Maybe. There will be a lot of noise in the communication process.
Let me record myself reading the passage!
 
Yay!
I'll be back in about 15 minutes.
 
Then while I'm listening more and trying to describe more, you can see what you notice.
OK.
 
Thanks! Catch you real soon.
 
2:03 PM
:-)
My first reading.
Another reading that may show I'm becoming more familiar with the excerpt, so more appropriate stress, etc.
 
I'm back!
downloading...
Wow!
downloading the 2nd file...
I think I solved the "Qualifying" part. It's the stressing.
 
2:21 PM
I'm enjoying now.
I am just listening to qualifying over and over and seeing what I notice.
Qualifying

1. Allow a pause before beginning the sentence.
2. Stress the whole word more strongly relative to "allows"
3. Stress the first syllable more strongly than the others, and the third syllable gets a minor stress.
4. The first vowel sound in qual is pronounced for a longer period: quaaaaaaaaalifyyying.
5.
 
nods -- I think I swapped the primary and secondary stresses!
I like the way you pause a bit after Qualifying!
 
Yes, and it would be even more interesting to get some feedback from others.
And where I've made choices that others might perfectly well make differently, and where my choices would pretty much reflect most native speakers' choices.
That all gets really interesting.
I think for elsewhere, you can easily hear how we pronounced it differently.
 
I can't observe much difference between your "Elsewhere in this book" and mine. It must be something I overlook.
 
O>o
haha
 
@JimReynolds I think we pronounce the whole thing almost entirely differently. :-)
 
2:28 PM
Funny, because I just listened to your "elsewhere" before we both wrote.
Well, no.
 
Oh!
 
I mean, it's so complex.
what is the same, what's different.
And who hears what.
 
nods -- You make me think of Chapter a Day on NPR. :-)
My reading makes me think of someone who is trying to convince (what he wrote in his book to) his audience.
 
To me the first syllable . . . eellllllll. I pronounce it with a much longer duration than you.
 
re-listening...
 
2:31 PM
Ha. Well, I was very self-conscious reading it, too. That part is just normal human.
Reading aloud is so different than speaking spontaneously.
 
@JimReynolds I think my /l/ is not prominent enough, perhaps.
@JimReynolds Indeed.
Hi @Man_From_India!
 
good evening @JimReynolds @DamkerngT.
 
I think it would be interesting for you to keep recording versions.
Hi @Man!
Without a great deal of conscious effort.
 
I've uploaded a second version (a very casual one, I was in my reading-to-myself mode). Not sure if you've seen it.
 
Yes. 419
That's what I used for this.
 
2:35 PM
Oh, wait. Which version of my readings did you use for marking those marks?
 
When we find a few points where you are not sure how you sound differently than me, but I hear a significant difference, that's our opportunity to try shadowing, and for me to try different ways of describing the difference, pointing your attention in different ways.
419
 
419?
 
Yes.
Nether will be like The Netherlands.
nÉ›
wapping, I suppose like the fake word "wapple".
Ah, yes!
418 is very different!
I only listened to a little bit of 418 before I did any serious listening.
Maybe you should make one that is halfway between those.
 
Ah, I had no idea about your 418/419 until now!
 
I suppose that, since you will get more familiar with the text, you can make one with the clarity of 418, but the more relaxed and perhaps natural feeling of 419.
But I dunno.
You decide all of that. My value is my ear and pointing to places I hear differences.
 
2:45 PM
Sorry, I was on phone. I'm back now.
Ah, I see. Let me see, I think I can try my "reading-to-a-friend" mode. :D
 
just asking: What does "use it on" (in this case) means? — XPMai 12 hours ago
The sentence is -
> You don't have to pay for the whole month. You just have to pay for as many days as you use it on.
 
Oh, yes. I remember that sentence last night. I don't like it much. Dunno. Maybe it's just something I'm not familiar with.
 
I think that on is optional, and without it it's better.
 
> You don't have to pay for the whole month. You pay only for the actual days you use it the services.
Hmm... I wanted to edit it! Never mind. Let me try again.
 
yes...
 
2:57 PM
> You don't have to pay for the whole month. You just have to pay only for the actual days you use it the services.
I mean, with just have to, the sentence will sound less professional.
 
i never noticed that.
yes indeed it does sound like that.
 
I'd argue that only is also optional, even! :-)
But I think only makes it sound a little friendlier. :D
 
Argh! My chocolate is melting! (again)
 
literally? :O
 
3:03 PM
Yes! It's quite warm in my room now.
 
Just put it in a syringe and inject it directly into a vein.
 
My chocolates are usually sensitive. They'll normally start to get melted around 28-29 C.
lol
It's 29.5 C now.
 
You just have to pay for however many days you use it.
That would be a very common, but rather informal way of saying it.
 
That's perfect!
What if we want to make it a little more formal, like something a call center guy would say?
 
It would not be perfect for some formal writing.
Hmm...
Well highly formal would get into something using "pro rated"
It's pro-rated depending on daily use.
Um ... well. Maybe.
O.O
 
3:08 PM
but that on in the original sentence, is that optional or not needed at all?
 
I think call center people usually have to strike a good balance between being friendly, polite, and yet not being too formal.
 
Can't keep the on.
 
And, oh, MFI's focus is only on "on".
 
Some people would say it.
But it's not really standard.
Not in writing.
 
3:48 PM
Sheesh. I think I'm gonna be using sheesh a lot from now on. Sheesh.
I'm back!
 
Welcome back!
 
Welcome back @MAR
 
May I ask why Sheesh?
 
Oh thank you.
@DamkerngT. A troublesome young user from India has been outta suspension lately.
I've been doing five VLQ reviews, all his answers.
 
Uh-huh?
Ahh
 
3:50 PM
Sheesh. I have a few points to make: 1. To not scare new users off, let's use a little less harsh language. "I'm very disappointed by your just guessing. You just mindlessly used dS=dH/T..." is a little bit too much. 2. Your answers are getting multiple VLQ flags and that's why I'm commenting a lot. 3. I think it's better to include the link to the benzene data page on Wikipedia. — MARamezani 9 mins ago
Sheesh.
Sheesh...sheesh.
 
I see your point.
Oh, you have the tag "homework" on Chem SE!
 
Yes.
We're very strict about it though.
They have to prove that they did do something that didn't end up with answers.
 
Fair enough.
 
-15
Q: Got another suspension?

ADGNote: You disagree hence you will down-vote this question, but since I have accepted an answer that doesn't really make sense since it shows I accept my mistake. Well I wrote this answer and got suspended for plagiarism: 1.Lanthanoids primarily show three oxidation states(+2,+3,+4). Among th...

Heh! Cabin has attracted people I haven't seen in this two month I'm here.
 
:D
 
3:59 PM
@Choko Hullo!
 
Hi
 
My name is...Well, actions speaker louder than words young man!, but wait...that is irrelevant.
My First name is MARamezani and my last name is cyclohexane.
My middle name is chair model now.
I just changed it two days ago.
 
You have such a long name!
 
Nah. Not too long. You know, I saw a guy yesterday named 5,5,8-triethyl-2,2,16-trimethyl 13-icozene.
 
heh
15 downvotes!
(Sheesh)
 
4:05 PM
That's kinda natural in meta.SE.
Sheesh.
 
Oh...
 
Good thing it's not my post.
 
yeah..
 
So, tell me about you, what are you? who are you? Where are you from? Who is your creator? What is your driving card licence number? Are you married? Do you have children? What are your interests? etc etc.
 
it must be pretty discouraging to get so many dv
haha
creator?
 
4:07 PM
Yes. Are you a robot? Are a bot? Are you an alien?
 
I'm in Japan, I'm from Japan...
 
Those are common here you know.
 
I don't know much about computer
 
Me neither.
How old are you?
 
heh... probably older than you
I'm not married, I don't have a boyfriend at the moment...
 
4:12 PM
Well, you can keep it a secret. But here regs know each other's age. @Dam is 34263527363273 (disguised as 45), @Jim is as old as universe (disguised as a grumpy 50-something) and @snailboat is 33.
 
haha
 
@Choko Hmm, who are you whispering to?
 
Yeah I'm a bit older than snailboat
okay i gotta go, bed time
later
 
Bye! TTYL!
BTW, @Choko the golden rule of chat is:
> NEVER TAKE ME SERIOUSLY.
Don't use smileys, because if I do, it'll be overusing.
 
4:27 PM
@Choko Good night!
> The 5f electrons are more effectively shielded from nuclear charge. In other words the 5f electrons themselves provide poor shielding from element to element in the series
With a small amount of effort...
 
@DamkerngT. Later is good point?
 
o_O
 
Well, your messages directs as a response to Choko's last message.
 
I saw Choko's bed time.
Am I that old!?! (34263527363273 years!)
 
Dunno. Older?
I wonder if she took my messages seriously...
 
4:34 PM
:D
 
Well, she did say that MARamezani Chair-model Cyclohexane is a long name.
 
Now you take her message seriously. :D
 
Dunno. Did she chat with you?
 
A few times, yes.
 
I'm worried. She might be all Oooh girl! There are some psychos there! the next morning.
But I'm not a psycho.
Sorta.
 
4:37 PM
lol
I think we all know that you don't have any ill-intention.
Just phuunny. -- Hee
 
Or maybe I do....! MWAHHHHAAHHAHAHAHAHA!
 
Melted chocolate is less delicious than crispy ones.
 

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