ELL's Cabin - 2015-04-20 (page 1 of 4)

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3:03 AM

What's a hacking as you use it here?

5 hours later…

8:15 AM

@JimReynolds It's part of my idiolect! I use it to refer to the act of learners when they are experimenting with the possibilities to make a sentence.

0

Q: Pronunciation of "neural" in an American accent

I am trying to pronounce the word neural in an American accent. I found it like nooral. Is that correct? Or should it be like nywral? or something else?

american-english pronunciation american-accent

Ah, this question shows why standard transcriptions (like IPA) are useful.

Anonymous

I agree. What does "nyw" represent? I don't know.

Anonymous

I personally suspected it represented a typo :-)

I think it was his attempt to mean "new" in BrE.

But it was very confusing in there indeed!

Anonymous

Oh, sort of a mixture of spelling and um, spelling?

Yes!

Anonymous

8:25 AM

But yes I think the question is about whether the /j/ is present in AmE

nods

Anonymous

Dictionaries say no

I guess it depends on speakers, perhaps?

Anonymous

It sounds fine to me with any amount of palatalization, I think

Anonymous

I tried saying it to myself a bunch of different ways

8:26 AM

I think sometimes mine is more like his "noo" and sometimes it's more like his "nyw", um, let's use his convention for a while.

nods

Anonymous

I think there are probably more than two possible pronunciations—more like a range

Anonymous

My intuition for this sort of stuff is bad

Anonymous

Though phonetics / phonology in your native language is always counterintuitive, I think

I'm pretty sure that sometimes my "n" of "neural" will come out like "ny", perhaps somewhat like a hybrid of BrE "new" and "jew".

(If that makes any sense!)

@snailboat Eh?

Oh, I see. You mean most native speakers aren't really familiar with the phonology of their own first languages.

Anonymous

Yes, and paying close attention to it goes counter to our natural training as children, when we learn to optimize out phonetic details and form a phonological system of perception

Anonymous

8:33 AM

Of course, /j/ is a phoneme...

Anonymous

Oh well, introspection is difficult :-)

:D

dropbox.com/s/0dr6tqjcfcf02jx/neural.wav?dl=0

^ My three different neural's.

Anonymous

I'll listen next time I'm chatting from my computer!

Okay!

Anonymous

I think for me neural often rhymes with earl

8:43 AM

Ah, I see!

Anonymous

I suspect if I recorded myself I'd find myself pronouncing it multiple ways :-)

Maybe it depends on context, even!

in English Language Learners, 14 hours ago, by Mohammad

@DamkerngT. thanks,I will ask my question on http://english.stackexchange.com,I could get a clean answer

Sometimes I wonder if I get my points across well enough!

Anonymous

I wonder that all the time about myself :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes when I'm talking to someone, I get the feeling that not only are they misunderstanding me, I'm misunderstanding them as well

nods

8:51 AM

Hello friends.

Anonymous

It's not clear what you mean by "a double n sound from English". The only double /n/ sound I can think of off the top of my head is in pen knife. @Kyle But [ŋ] isn't a phoneme in Japanese, so you should write it in square brackets. Anyway, I think there's a lot of information someone could put in a competing answer, so I hope the OP unchecks this one and waits to see if anyone else would like to contribute. — snailboat ♦ 1 hour ago

Hello @Jim!

One good thing about face-to-face talks and interactive chats is that we can ask when we're not sure.

Anonymous

I still think I'm failing to understand them, even after their response

Anonymous

Present Day English, by the way, doesn't allow geminate consonants within morpheme boundaries

Your neural is quite close, Dam.

Anonymous

8:53 AM

Which is why we have to use examples made of two or more like pen knife

The way to make it closer to native pronunciation is to add a vowel sound to the end.

Anonymous

But in Old English the words that would become apple and sell actually had doubled consonant sounds

@JimReynolds a vowel at the end? o_O

So, there's something like a "hidden" and "little" luh at the end of neural.

Snailboat, do you know what I mean?

I suppose there's a name for this phenomenon.

Anonymous

I'm afraid I don't know

8:55 AM

I know of the issue as "final consonant"

@snailboat I guess that it's about duration (that it's become apple).

Which is some kind of short-hand.

short-hand.

I think that's a word!

@JimReynolds Do you mean that I'm supposed to make my /l/ in "neural" darker?

Well, let me make a recording. I can demonstrate that way.

To hear the last "t" sound in "didn't", for example . . .

Oh, I see. You wanted me to enunciate it.

8:57 AM

There is a did en t(ah)

tah tuh te SOMETHING!

I pronounced them, didn't enunciate them!

That's called "release".

It is a "vowel sound" or vowelish sound, and it is actually needed to define the ending boundary of the consonant sound.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Stop consonants like /t/ can be released or unreleased, and what you're talking about makes me think of a release. But /l/ is an approximant, not a stop

OK. It is something like a release.

I think he meant that I should make the /l/ sound longer, so it'll be easier to catch.

8:59 AM

It's more about what the l sound includes.

@JimReynolds nods -- I think I understand what you meant.

Meh. I will demonstrate, and I suppose you might know what I mean.

Yeah. Probably.

Yes, but overdoing will make us sound like Davie Jones!

Neuralluh!

Jones? Jones?

Didn'tah!

9:00 AM

I don't know any . .

Oh, JONE-SAH!

maybe!

Oh, sorry, it's Davy Jones (in Pirates of the Caribbean).

I think another Davey or Davie is a . . . not a Beatle, but some 60s pop singer?

Or a Beatle? O.O

Ringo, Paul, John.

O.O

OMO!

What kind of American am I?

a Beatles' fan :-)

Anonymous

There's some variety in American /l/ sounds

Anonymous

I read a great summary by a linguist once who said that it was really not well documented enough to describe accurately

Anonymous

9:04 AM

But I can no longer remember where I read it.

Some excerpts of Davy Jones...

Best of Davy Jones

> Can you condemn an innocent man, a friend(uh), to a lifetime of salvages ...

:D

By the way, Caribbean is another word that I memorize its spelling by mispronouncing it. (I mentally pronounce it "care-rihb-bean" with "bean" as in bean!)

Actually, in that clip, do you hear the ending of the squid saying "friend"?

It's exactly the SORT of thing I'm talking about.

At which second?

Though all these terms, I don' t know.

Very beginning.

4 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> Can you condemn an innocent man, a friend(uh), to a lifetime of salvages ...

9:10 AM

Exactly.

Is that what you mean?

Ahh :-)

It is very noticeable here.

That's my transcription.

But if we don't make any "duh" at all, the "d" sound can't be heard correctly by a native speaker.

I'm talking in my own clumsy vocabulary.

Which is why I think overdoing it could make it sound a bit, um, noticeable! :P

9:11 AM

Yes.

But underdo it, and that's a major difference between accent and no accent.

Hmm... was I underdoing it?

A major cause of non-understanding.

Yes. It's missing in your neurals.

scratching head...

So it's girl.

Gir ul lah

or luh

or something!

> macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/neural

9:13 AM

Not really an ...

Anonymous

I'm on board with releasing /d/ following /n/

It's not actually an uh or . . .

Anonymous

I'm not sure I follow the discussion about girl and neural

Is his pronunciation (in the dictionary) missing /l/-release as well?

He has more l-release than you!

haha

Anonymous

9:14 AM

I don't know what an /l/ release is

Me either!

But Dam needs one for my ear.

I don't think so. I think the difference is not about the release.

Whatever it is.

Maybe the /r/.

It can help to pronounce neuro and neural.

Anonymous

9:15 AM

@JimReynolds Can you record it with and without the thingy in question?

And try to notice the difference.

Yes.

You are on your phone. Is it Android?

@JimReynolds I'm pretty sure my "neuro" sounds different from my "neural".

Anonymous

It's an iPhone

However, that's my perspective.

So that's what's fascinating. To me, your neural sounds like someone's neuro.

OK. I think you can easily play the format my device makes. Let's see.

My stupid cat is bugging me.

Anonymous

9:17 AM

So the /l/ needs to be more prominent?

Even in normal speech?

Yes.

nods

And it is something at the end period of the sound that defines or creates this prominence.

Anonymous

Some speakers vocalize /l/ to one extent or another

9:19 AM

I remember that some native speakers reduce ending /l/ even more than me.

Anonymous

I can record my weird /l/ later

Basically, the /l/ is not there.

Anonymous

I don't reduce my /l/, but I don't touch the tip of my tongue to the roof of my mouth

Are you Japanese, snailboat?

The dictionary guy did.

I do it too.

Anonymous

9:21 AM

I'm not Japanese

And to be fair, I think he cut his /l/ short about as short as mine.

So I think it's more about the glide from /r/ to /l/ that caused Jim the trouble.

Anonymous

I grew up in Illinois. I have Irish ancestry

Mr. MacMillan had a bit of a short or (maybe) un(der)vocalized l.

OK. You learned Japanese.

?

I think his /l/ is quite a typical one, imo.

I'm sure a lot of people (native AmE speakers) cut it way shorter than his.

Anonymous

Macmillan has a lowercase second 'm', which is hard to tell since they use all caps for the title on their web page

Anonymous

9:23 AM

I've been learning Japanese for almost 18 years, but I'm not very good at it

Ah! Mac, that typical part of Japanese surnames. O.O

Anonymous

I don't think I'll ever say I "learned" Japanese, only that I'm "learning" it :-)

? (about surnames)

(Because Mac Mc are Irish.)

Yes, but Japanese?

9:25 AM

I'm teasing myself for trying to figure out snailboat.

For being wrong.

But it still doesn't quite make sense. Or the explanation would require a paragraph.

:D

Oh, don't worry. I get Mac Mc wrong all the time. :-)

Spelling names is even harder than spelling English words.

(Not only spelling! How should I pronounce Nether Wapping!?)

Anonymous

English is the only language I'm good at, and even then sometimes I have to question whether the word good is really appropriate :-)

Anonymous

I can't read anything I've written withou cringing

Anonymous

Thanks autocorrect for your faith in withou

I can't read the chat log without laughing when I see my funny English. :P

9:29 AM

@snailboat Non-prescriptivist autocorrect! Way to go :)

Oh. Hahaha.

The funniest thing. Let me find it.

Anonymous

Hi @Araucaria! Welcome to ELL chat!

My student went to San Francisco.

Hi @snailboat :) Am learning stuff about Am pron here today!

Anonymous

I saw your answer on whose each. It had lots of good info! I'm sure I read the bit you quoted from CGEL before, but I apparently forgot

9:30 AM

Hello @Araucaria!

BTW @Jim. Can you hear her /l/ in macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/neural?

@DamkerngT. Hi old bean

I have to confess... that I haven't read long answers on ELL for a week. -- sobbing

Anonymous

I'm going to have a lot of different things to listen to when I get to my computer

(But don't worry. I keep good long answers in my tabs!)

-1

Q: (As or Provided) you get your father's permission, I'll take you skiing next weekend

I am taking an online English skill test and noticed there's a question like this: ___ you get your father's permission, I'll take you skiing next weekend. (As) OR (Provided) The correct answer is Provided according to the page. I am wondering why As is not ok for this case?

Hi @araucaria

drive.google.com/file/d/0B_hivi_ChoizaUNqclFTWk1OSzQ/…

There is my best to forget that I'm pronouncing and say "neural" several times.

9:35 AM

I think, actually, as works, too.

Then I say "girl"

Then I found that I wasn't sure how to pronounce it "without the thingie" . . .

But I solved that by playing back Dam's "neural" and then repeating what I hear.

It's definitely "neuro" !

No. As not good.

It could be grammatical, but it would have a different meaning.

And it wouldn't be something we'd say often.

Now I'm thinking maybe you're thinking of nasalization.

If we wrote: As you get your father's permission, I'll take you skiing next weekend . . .

We would interpret it as meaning, "Occurring simultaneously"

Hmm... I'm thinking it's more about /r/+/l/, not the /l/.

You mean, you can hear something stronger in "girl" compared to "neural" ?

9:39 AM

Wait, I pronounced neural three different ways. Can you hear the differences?

Let me see. All I noticed was that I didn't hear the "l"

that is how I'd describe my experience of you saying it.

nods

Nothing else is important, because that's the salient difference. :-)

I tried to make the difference (I thought) the OP was thinking about more obvious.

Yes, as I play it again, I think you might say the neu part differently in #3.

9:41 AM

All of them are different.

@JimReynolds :) I find that it often helps to put the word in a sentence and then concentrate on some kind of alternative word to fixate on. Perhaps It's flying down the neural pathway for example, and then out the nucleus, the main stress, on pathway or even flying :)

But it's very hard to notice because my brain hears neuro neuro neuro.

nods

My brain is like, "EMERGENCY!!!! He's not saying the l."

Yes. Good idea, @Ara

I was in an excited state because my cat finally calmed down enough to let me try to record something.

nucleus. O.O

Are you a linguist?

rime, nucleas, vocalization, dipthong, postvocolic, coda, etc., etc., etc. is all Greek to me.

And I want it to stay that way!

Just like I'm a good driver, but can't take apart an engine.

dropbox.com/s/xpng8kpm06gbnao/…

My It's flying down the neural pathway with varying carelessness. :-)

9:46 AM

Oh!!! I get it. The squid-like guy is Davy Jones!

@JimReynolds Yes!

And his thing is exaggerating certain sounds.

But yeah

!!

My Standard American ear wants to hear something between Dam and Davy!

It's fun to imitate Davy Jones sometimes. :-)

Okay!

What about my neural in (sorta) normal speech?

@JimReynolds Ah, nuceus is not that bad! You can think of it as the main musical stress in a sentence. So when Joey in friends says "how you doin?" to a girl, the nucleus is on you!

No l, no l, no l, no l, no l, no l !

9:48 AM

Wow!

neuro patheway, neuro pathway, neuro pathway, neuro pathway.

Right.

So, whatever it is, it's one of the keys.

Is the nucleus then, associated with a word in a sentence?

How is the /l/ in flying different from the /l/ in neural?

Does a single word have a nucleus?

Hmm. Well, it seems like apples and oranges.

But maybe if I pronounce "neural lie" something can be heard.

Should /l/ in like be different from /l/ in ball?

I don't consciously know.

But I wonder if I say ball-like, what you would hear.

9:52 AM

@Jim Have you tried the other pronunciation by Macmillan?

@JimReynolds If you pronounced ball like, I would hear "ball like", I suppose! :D

Right! haha

With or without /k/-release.

Like whenever I say neural, you hear what you say.

So you have already heard her neural, right?

Yes. And dictionary.com's

9:55 AM

No, I meant Macmillan.

24 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

BTW @Jim. Can you hear her /l/ in http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/neural?

And I don't hear quite the end sound that I think I'd hear from a person.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I wonder what you'd find if you took the sample audio from Macmillan and looked at the F1 and F2 for each /l/

her pronunciation doesn't sound completely right to me.

Sounds like a machine talking.

O.O

o_O

I can assure you that she sounds perfectly natural to me!

Oh, like a digital voiceprint?

Anonymous

9:56 AM

You linked to the BrE pronunciation, right?

And mine!

@snailboat Yes!

Yes.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. When you were asking about ball and like, were you talking about AmE or BrE?

But I must say, her ending l sound is not missing what I'm talking about.

9:57 AM

Hmm... I was talking in general. I mean, I didn't think that non-dark /l/ in AmE would be much different from BrE /l/.

@JimReynolds Perhaps it's nasalization, then.

Anonymous

I don't have a non-dark /l/

maybe.

The word "nasal" with respect to pronunciation makes me think of someone speaking with a bad cold.

Why, I don't know.

This reminds me of German /z/.

German /z/ is generally stronger than English /z/.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I asked because I think BrE /l/ is different

I suppose that my /l/ is not strong enough to be classified as /l/ for Jim.

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