The Base Camp

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Russell Steen

00:22

@Ryley -- Yup.

@Kevin -- On the DEET answer, I'm not really sure if you intended it to look like DEET is an alternative for DEET, or just that people should use DEET in a much lower concentration. Can you clarify any?

Ryley

now that there's a bounty, I felt it necessary to expand my answer to the other DEET question

"I suppose I should be clearer? nothing is more effective than DEET :) Sure it might melt your face off, but if the alternative is not going outside, I choose melty-face."

PS: @RussellSteen I upvoted your answer on that one, I love any reference to journals and literature reviews :)

Russell Steen

@Ryley -- Yeah, I voted yours up. I was torn between making my own answer and just suggesting my references as an update to yours. Really we should combine mine into yours and delete mine I think.

Kevin

@RussellSteen It was for completeness - to include the whole CDC list - and to point out that 50% deet is enough, but I've pulled the DEET out.

Russell Steen

@Kevin -- Sorry for the confusion. It's unlikely I'll see anything better but I try to wait 24 hours before checking an answer

Kevin

00:37

Of course. I do the same thing.

Russell Steen

I think the 50% is a good point

Ryley

@RusselSteen Whichever you prefer, my answer is zero research, 100% anecdote, you at least put some effort in :)

Russell Steen

I see a LOT of people saying "I used 100% DEET and..."

and my first thought is "100% seems excesive"

Kevin

I think I'll go put a similar answer into the now-bountied question...

Including DEET, of course.

Russell Steen

haha :)

We really should just improve Ryley's answer

we're not adding more than references really

Ryley

00:39

I would be happy to remove my edit and instead include both pieces of info :)

I have to run, but if you decide either way, let me know here or just edit my answer

Russell Steen

@Ryley -- I edited :P

Ryley

01:05

cool, looks good

1 hour later…

LBell

02:15

Stuff just got real: outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/492/…

Kevin

oooh, 200

I wonder what physics would make of that question...

LBell

I thought about that... is there a way to cross-post? Its an outdoors question, through and through. Classic. It BELONGS here... but the experts might be over there.

Kevin

You can, but as I understand they only take research-level questions and they'd probably close one like that instantly.

LBell

The great thing is, even if (when) I get an answer, it won't end the riverside debates. Nor should it ;)

Kevin

02:32

Shame I only have one cooler (if I can find that one) or I'd try it myself.

LBell

Yeah - the issue a simple experiment is not enough - since there are many variables difficult to control for... maybe I'll post it over at skeptics.SE

Kevin

03:19

@LBell I've updated my answer to add support from cooler companies.

LBell

@Kevin Nice! - Lets see what the other camp comes up with ;) -- Though to be honest, I would prefer some more proof in to the "why" beyond even manufacturer's recommendation.

Kevin

I've been wondering whether it's worth writing up a simulation.

LBell

03:34

Oooh...

Kevin

03:54

Not sure whether I'll have the time before the bounty's done though.

Russell Steen

Read the article I posted

It seems a lot less complex

that is... there is some (but tiny) difference in the value of ice vs. water

assuming they are both near freezing

but -- if you drain the water... then when the ice is done melting you are screwed

Kevin

04:15

Tomorrow evening, if I remember, I'll try and look back into thermal conductivity and see if I can figure it out formulaically.

Someone remind me around 7EST

Russell Steen

Sure, would love to see that!

1 hour later…

bmike

05:43

@Kevin Thermal conductivity doesn't matter since you have a gas (air) and a liquid (water) doing the cooling. You can't prevent convection from keeping the temperature from evening out. This is a steady state problem since the cooler acts to insulate and isolate the insides and keep things at a steady temperature.

The air is good enough to get the heat to the ice for it to melt and from there the water is a huge heat sink. Do let me know what you think of my take at an answer.

Russell Steen

06:08

@bmike -- I really think we're over-complicating the problem

It reminds me of that time I was working with engineers trying to decide how to insulate around an attic fan... otherwise know as a 3ft hole in the ceiling.

bmike

06:22

@RussellSteen The best part of physics is knowing how to crack the nut and re-frame the question. That's the real art - finding the most simple aspect and central aspect of the issue - the core problem and then addressing or dismissing all of the complications as irrelevant or just a matter of scale - not changing the overall truth

Russell Steen

@bmike -- well said sir

12 hours later…

bmike

18:52

woah - maybe these guys can help with a model of heat transfer for DIY stove designs...

zenstoves.net/CatCanStove.htm

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