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Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
12:30 AM
@Rojo are you around?
 
Rojo
Rojo
12:55 AM
@Mr.Wizard Hey
Pinging is working weird for me some times lately
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
lol -- I was just leaving. (but I'm staying now)
 
Rojo
Rojo
Hehe
Whats up Wiz
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Sorry, I was trying to find the link again. Please take a look at this answer: mathematica.stackexchange.com/a/1997/121
 
Rojo
Rojo
@Mr.Wizard Read it, now rereading it to understand it better
(the question yet, I'm slow)
Oh, I see
He wants to do stuff like f[x_]=sth, but being sure that x doesn't have a value
Nice one
Now, your answer
@Mr.Wizard That's a great one
Now, the comments
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I wasn't seeking approval, but thank you. Also, you're very thorough, which is probably why I'm about to ask for your help. :-)
 
Rojo
Rojo
1:05 AM
@Mr.Wizard Tell me
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Okay, background. Set evaluates its LHS argument, but in a special way. Consider: 
pat = x_;
head = f;
f[_] = "Fail";
head[pat] = {x, 2};
?f
 
Rojo
Rojo
Yeah
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I'd like to extend localSet to handle a case like this, meaning that x would be localized.
 
Rojo
Rojo
I see
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I cannot think of an elegant way to do this. It seems like either it's going to evaluate too far, or I'm going to have to get rather fancy about it. (e.g. my step evaluator, etc.)
(pardon, be right back)
 
Rojo
Rojo
1:09 AM
I don't see how you can avoid using something involving explicit blahValues yet
Brb
Oh
No
Pattern is HoldFirst, so it shouldn't be any problem
An untested idea before I go to the toilet
Prepend this definition
localSet[head_[args___],
rhs_] := {head, {args}} /. {h_, {a___}} :> localSet[h[a], rhs]
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Rojo I think we'll need a /; ! TrueQ[$...] but that should work! I don't know why I didn't think to separate the head and its arguments.
 
Rojo
Rojo
@Mr.Wizard Tail recursive is nicer
localSet[head_[args___], rhs_] :=
localSet[{head, {args}} /. {h_, {a___}} :> h[a], rhs]
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I wonder if this can be made to work with Leonid's concerns about UpValues.
 
Rojo
Rojo
Let me read
I see
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Rojo I don't follow; how is that supposed to prevent recursion?
 
Rojo
Rojo
1:20 AM
Forget my last comment on tail recursive, wouldn't work and makes no sense
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Someone once told me: "The best minds make the best mistakes."
That would be Sjoerd, right here.
 
Rojo
Rojo
@Mr.Wizard Was he the one that also told you that you code perverse MMA?
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Rojo Let me check; I think that was Simon.
 
Rojo
Rojo
Ok, let's try to make this work with upvalues
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Rojo Confirmed, Simon.
@Rojo I didn't ask you to do that; you already cleared my mental-block regarding this.
 
Rojo
Rojo
1:25 AM
Oka
:)
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Thanks, collaborator. :-)
 
Rojo
Rojo
No prob. Any interesting thing I may have missed this week?
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Probably, but my memory's none too good. I'll ping you when I think of something.
 
 
9 hours later…
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
10:06 AM
Ciao @MrW
I don't really know how to implement what you're asking for, but I don't see how Set has this property. Let me read again with more care.
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Hello @Szabolcs
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Hello
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I'm tired and probably not thinking too well. I'm mixing different meanings into one I'm afraid and that's probably causing confusion.
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
It's 3 AM there. Get some sleep :-)
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
First up, my sloppy "leak" example was a last minute shorthand for this: 
_[___, up2, ___] ^:= "Hidden";
TracePrint[f[1, up2] = 2,
 TraceInternal -> True]
In the output of that command we see Hidden indicating that at some point the DownValue was either evaluated or otherwise "viewed."
Do you see that as well?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
10:13 AM
Yes, I see what you mean. Let me try it with a HoldAll function, out of curiosity.
It does not happen in that case. 
Attributes[h] = {HoldFirst}
TracePrint[h[x[up]], TraceInternal -> True]
It's something specific to Set that it evaluates the UpValue.
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Szabolcs Yes, exactly.
 
Rojo
Rojo
Moornin
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@Rojo Already?! ;-)
hello
 
Rojo
Rojo
Yeah, woke up early it seems :)
Go on, go on
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Okay, suppose I simply want to mimic the behavior of Set: myfunc[ f[. . ., up, . . .] ] and have it evaluate all the arguments of f besides up. Does that make sense?
 
Rojo
Rojo
10:18 AM
I don't think that "Hidden" is being evaluated
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
This is actually where I started on this, but then I thought this could be extended to the function f itself (assuming HoldAllComplete).
@Rojo Apparently not (see failed "leak" example) but what then?
 
Rojo
Rojo
I think that
it's a Trace thing
running something like
Print@HoldForm@up
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Of course! I see it now. Duh. :-s
Blah... okay, time to delete that from my question.
@Szabolcs does my question make sense to you now or not?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Yes, it does.
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
I think I'll leave it there then and get some rest. Please correct any other obvious foolishness you find.
bye guys!
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
10:31 AM
@Mr.Wizard my gf is annoyed that I spend too much time here, I have to go ...
 
 
2 hours later…
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
12:05 PM
Any ideas how to make the image uploader ad both eye catching and pretty? I'm not really happy with what I manahed to make... :-(
The background is just a random selection of recently uploaded images.
 
 
1 hour later…
belisarius
belisarius
1:19 PM
@Szabolcs Hi!
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Hi @belisarius
 
belisarius
belisarius
Trying your amazing Image Uploader Super Collider now
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius Wait for 1 min please, I just uploaded a new version.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs Ok! So I will test the upgrade feature :)
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius Okay, you can download now. If you didn't, then please try if the update check button works!
It doesn't auto-upgrade yet, it just checks if there's a new version.
 
belisarius
belisarius
1:22 PM
yep. The version test worked
let's see if it upgrades flawlessly
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
It should simply tell you that there's a new version, and stay reddish (I changed the colour now to LightMagenta, it reminded me of errors too much)
 
belisarius
belisarius
it IS reddish indeed
Any special care for upgrading?
or should I just overwrite and reinstall?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
This new version will automatically check for updates every 5 days now (if you open the palette). It shouldn't complain about errors if something is wrong, and it's put in TimeConstrained. Let's see if people will complain ...
@belisarius Just download the archive again, open the notebook, evaluate it, Palettes -> Install palette ..., and use the same name. It'll overwrite it.
I'll make this easier to do in the future.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs Re: Just download the archive again .... Overwriting the old one, or in a new folder?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius You can overwrite the new one, but make sure that you extract all files---the .nb, the .m and version. The open the .nb, and evaluate it in full. It'll create a palette. You can install this palette over the old one in the palettes menu.
I think I'll just distribute the palette notebook from now on ... it should be easier.
 
belisarius
belisarius
1:28 PM
I guess so
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I hope there won't be problems with the "enable dynamic" thing if I do that.
The postman was here.
Yes, you're right: it's too complicated as it is. I think I'll distribute the palette notebook only and make it auto-upgrade (if you want it to) instead of just notify about the update.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs I think that will be a good idea. I don't work with palettes, and the upgrade process is somewhat confusing
@Szabolcs Ok. The upgrade failed. Probably I failed to use the same name. How could I uninstall everything I installed (meaning the two versions) and start all over again?
Is there an "uninstall palette" thing?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius You're on WinXP, right? Type %appdata%\Mathematica\SystemFiles\FrontEnd\Palettes into a Run... box (just open that folder)
The palette notebook should be there. Just delete it.
 
belisarius
belisarius
yep, both are there
ok
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Wait, I'll give you the palette notebook directly
@belisarius Drop this notebook there instead: dl.dropbox.com/u/38623/SE%20Uploader.nb Then restart the front end.
@belisarius Try this link if your browser gives you trouble downloading . .. I need to learn how to do these things properly...
@belisarius Is it okay now?
It's good you told me that it's not easy to handle. I'll try to make it easier to install today.
 
belisarius
belisarius
1:49 PM
@Szabolcs Yes, sorry but I did it "the old way"
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
that's fine too
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs Anyway, I blame my lack of expertise on palettes and not the install method
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I want it to be easy to use!
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs So, the "update check" should be gone ... schedule a check for new version and upgrade automatically ... works for idiots like me
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I'll keep it a manual process. It'll automatically check for updates every 5 days. If there is an update, the button will highlight. If you press the button, it'll give you the option to automatically update.
 
belisarius
belisarius
1:53 PM
@Szabolcs A question ... where are you saving the history?
@Szabolcs Seems fair enough
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius I use two places for persistent storage. The history goes into the TaggingRules of the palette, which is saved into a special place for palettes that are installed (see here). The history will persist even after you upgrade.
@belisarius The latest online version and the time of the last update check are stored in the tagging rules of the front end. Try CurrentValue[$FrontEnd, {TaggingRules}].
 
belisarius
belisarius
hehe "SEUploaderLastUpdateCheck" -> 3.5518563737155000*10^9
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Also try CurrentValue[$FrontEnd, "PalettesMenuSettings"].
 
belisarius
belisarius
Heike's torn paper thing would be a great addon
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
It's planned!
 
belisarius
belisarius
1:56 PM
Yep. I saw
I think it could be very nice if all our images are neat on the site
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
First I want to implement the update, then the image cropper, then the torn paper effect, maybe code uploader, then finally better reasterization for Mac/Linux (it's important but it's difficult to do)
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs It's a pity I can't contribute. I will start learning something about palettes. It's time ...
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I'm also learning at the same time as doing it. UI building was new to me.
 
belisarius
belisarius
MMa has too many things to learn :)
A history delete feature should be part of the roadmap someday
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Oh yes, that too.
 
belisarius
belisarius
2:02 PM
@Szabolcs I'll show you
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
With Grids? What exactly would you like to do with grids?
 
belisarius
belisarius
upload that
@Szabolcs without rasterizing first
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius Got it now. Try selecting the grid using a sweeping motion of the mouse, the same you use when you select text. The selection outline should be orange now. (I.e. click to the right of the grid, keep holding the button, drag the mouse left.) Now it should work.
 
belisarius
belisarius
hehe nice
I didn't know a grid can be selected as a graphics
@Szabolcs You made quite a nice app! Congrats!
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Actually it is graphics. It's a Graphics with Insets, I think.
Thanks :-)
 
belisarius
belisarius
2:12 PM
Yep. a graphic with insets. That is it
 
 
3 hours later…
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
4:59 PM
I just don't know where to host the file to be updated. I tried using GitHub's Downloads section, but Import seems to cache the file, so the new version won't show up until a restart.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs I don't think Import[] uses a cache, perhaps it's elsewhere
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius Perhaps Java does it. I import a file containing 1, then replace it on the server by a file containing 2. I verify that my web browser downloads 2. But Import still gives me 1 until I restart Mathematica.
This happens on GitHub. It does not happen with Dropbox.
 
belisarius
belisarius
uh uh
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I tried Google Code, but not even my web browser gives me the new version.
Going to try BitBucket now.
Same as Google Code.
 
belisarius
belisarius
would you like me to try?
perhaps it's a problem with your caches ..
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
5:08 PM
Just a sec...
@belisarius What do you see here?
If you see 123, that's not good. It means the server is caching it.
 
belisarius
belisarius
I see asd
Wait ... Why don't you post the code into mathematica.SE and then extract the
<pre><code> ..... </code></pre>
thing
so it's auto-contained
into this site
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
hm.. it's some server-side caching, maybe slow distribution in the content delivery network
 
belisarius
belisarius
welcome to the cloud :(
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
I don't want to just post it on SE because the palette file contents are not really human readable, and the code is quite big too. People will try to copy it by hand, they'll mess it up ...
I think I'll use GitHub anyway
but only tomorrow, got to go not to be late from the jazz festival! :-)
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs Enjoy!
 
 
5 hours later…
belisarius
belisarius
10:17 PM
Any mod around?
Any 10K user?
darn
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
10:34 PM
@belisarius I can see deleted questions, what do you need?
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs I deleted a question ... I forgot I lost the privilege to view it again :(. I just wanted to edit it offline. Shame on me
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
@belisarius I don't know how to find self-deleted questions. I can see moderator deleted questions through the mod tools.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Szabolcs Are you a mod?
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
Nope.
 
belisarius
belisarius
ok. Thanks Sza. Let's wait if can do it
 
Szabolcs
Szabolcs
10:39 PM
I can see deleted questions if I have their address, but I can't find out their URL if they're self-deleted and I haven't bookmarked them before deletion
 
belisarius
belisarius
Damn. I hope I didn't lose it :(
 
Vitaliy Kaurov
Vitaliy Kaurov
Hola!
 
belisarius
belisarius
@VitaliyKaurov Hi!
 
Vitaliy Kaurov
Vitaliy Kaurov
I think yesterday I deleted a question and could not find it even through "recently deleted" link.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@VitaliyKaurov here is the answer. you need a mod
6
Q: Why are self-undeleted posts not shown in the 10k tools?

lunboksI can understand not dragging self-deleted content into the spotlight. If there were problems with it, it's deleted anyway and they don't matter now, and the OP probably had their own private reasons for deleting it. Nothing wrong with self-deleting answers if you know they're bad. But why are s...

discussion support 10k-tools undelete
and me too ...
 
Vitaliy Kaurov
Vitaliy Kaurov
10:48 PM
haha i see. So basically the only way now is to ask a mod to un-delete it - correct?
 
belisarius
belisarius
@VitaliyKaurov Hmmm .. not sure whether he can undelete the q. But at least he can recover the content and send it to you
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
11:04 PM
@wreach will you join me?
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard Hey! I need a mod!
 
WReach
WReach
@Mr.Wizard hi
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
Hello WReach. :-)
@belisarius what's up?
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard I deleted a question (mine), and forgot I am a poor plain user here. want to undelete it
 
WReach
WReach
@Mr.Wizard I corrected my comment (twice) while you were typing yours. But I was on my iPad so it is a... pa...in..f..ul process :)
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
11:08 PM
@belisarius it deletes the question and then wants us to undelete it? What shall we do with it?
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard Kill him
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
OK, which Q? :-)
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard something about exclusions
 
Vitaliy Kaurov
Vitaliy Kaurov
@belisarius yeah, I was looking for that question - where did it go? - now i know ;)
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@belisarius Done.
 
belisarius
belisarius
11:09 PM
@VitaliyKaurov hehe
@Mr.Wizard Thanks! You will get a beer when you come here!
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@WReach I see that your method works but I wonder how it works, just as I do with Set -- do you understand the mechanism used by RuleCondition to evaluate its first argument?
@belisarius Your beer is safe as I'm not a world traveler.
 
WReach
WReach
@Mr.Wizard I don't understand how RuleCondition works, I have only observed that it has non-standard evaluation that can be used to good effect in held contexts. I was surprised that it worked with my proposed change to Szabolcs answer. But it does.
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard What a pity! It was coupled with a nice roasted pig ...
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@belisarius Those sausages looked nice too...
 
belisarius
belisarius
@Mr.Wizard I am leaving for a nice bbq in half an hour. Mouthwatering now ...
 
WReach
WReach
11:18 PM
@Mr.Wizard In particular, I expected the evaluation of hci to suppress the up-values, but then I would have thought that another round of evaluation would kick in and the up-values would be applied. Apparently, RuleCondition prevents the additional round of evaluation somehow. I'd sure like to see the internals of some of these built-ins :)
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@WReach Thanks, that's exactly what I was wondering about too.
I think Rojo showed the only non-black-box method for doing what I asked. I wonder if something similar is done internally by Set and RuleCondition. I guess we just have to wonder, unless you can hack .mx files. :^)
 
WReach
WReach
@Mr.Wizard I liked your "if we can't beat, join 'em" approach by bending Set to your will in your solution. Another clever trick. I always wonder whether any of these clever tricks that we find will just quietly disappear some day with some new release of Mathematica (like the change in Return that you and I stumbled across a while back).
 
Mr.Wizard
Mr.Wizard
@WReach I worry about that as well. It is of course more robust to do it in the language directly without these tricks, which is why I will probably be Accepting Rojo's answer.
 
belisarius
belisarius
O let the soul her slumbers break,
Let thought be quickened, and awake;
Awake to see
How soon this life is past and gone,
And death comes softly stealing on,
How silently!
Swiftly our pleasures glide away,
Our hearts recall the distant day
the pain
The moments that are speeding fast
We heed not, but the past,—the past,
More highly prize.
 
WReach
WReach
@Mr.Wizard I agree, Rojo's answer is my favourite so far.
@belisarius WRI needs you to write their error messages :)
 
belisarius
belisarius
11:33 PM
@WReach Well, not me
Jorge Manrique
Jorge Manrique (c. 1440 – 1479) was a major Spanish poet, whose main work, the Coplas a la muerte de su padre (Stanzas about the Death of his Father), is still read today. He was a supporter of the great Spanish queen, Isabel I of Castile, and actively participated on her side in the civil war that broke out against her half-brother, Enrique IV, when the latter attempted to make his daughter, Juana, crown princess. Jorge died in 1479 during an attempt to take the castle of Garcimuñoz, defended by the Marquis of Villena (a staunch enemy of Isabel), after Isabel gained the crown. Man...
 
WReach
WReach
@belisarius shhhh, i was prizing the past
 
belisarius
belisarius
:D
 

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