Help me out, you guys. Why the balls do we have a math tag?!

@J.M. Heh, I agree it is useless. Since it's only two questions, we can simply edit it out

Also, you probably could delete the closed one... OP has understood why it was closed and has accepted that it was not a suitable question

(I'd vote, but damn no 20k yet)

@R.M Bah, you'll get there in a few weeks... :P

I thought I may have fun with this one: mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/8507/…

Dr, Home?

@VitaliyKaurov Have you considered doing things like fake stained-glass windows?

@J.M. hehe, I kind of did. My friend does real stained-glass, and it won't be hard to make a design and an actual piece ;-)

@VitaliyKaurov That might make for a nice blog entry somewhere, I think. Try to copy one of your friend's artwork with a suitably-colored Voronoi diagram... :)

@J.M. Just an EdgeDetect of the Hue ...

@belisarius ...and tweak the Opacity[] as needed...

@J.M. because it is not expressly prohibited like mathematica, and anything not expressly prohibited is deemed valid and useful. :)

Is there any good resource / tutorial on using mathematica to "prove theorems" / work out proofs; i.e. things besides using it for "computation" ?

@rcollyer :P

@term-rewritica That's an interesting question, I wish I had an answer.

@J.M. I've actually tried mathematica just to see, and it, of course, yelled at me for it.

@term-rewritica I don't know about a tutorial, but you can use Mathematica to prove, for instance, theorems in geometry... (by Tarski)

@rcollyer I love black-lists... >:)

@J.M. I wonder if we could get them to add math to it ...

Sounds like a job for a moderator. :-)

@rcollyer I'll ask around. :)

@J.M. at least you appreciate snark.

@rcollyer I firmly believe onion-skinned people shouldn't be hanging around the Internet, FWIW. :)

@J.M. and especially not reddit.

@rcollyer ...or 4chan.

It looks like I have to get some work done tonight. So, good night.

Has anybody here ever sold software they wrote?

@CHM I did

@belisarius Why past tense?

@J.M. bc he is asking in past tense

Lol.

It includes the present.

@CHM So I am doing :)

@belisarius How do you sell it? Do you have a company?

@CHM Yep

Ok.

I'm asking because I was given an order for a program by a small group of people, but all I'm used to is GNU/BSD/open source, and I don't know how to proceed.

@CHM Sorry my poor English processor does not compute "I was given an order for a program" ... could you clarify?

Haha

An order, as when ordering from the restaurant.

really

(makes sense?)

Oh ... you mean they want you to make a program for them

Yes.

good

for money or sex?

Preferably both.

But I opted for cash.

you are a wise guy

"Your body is good, but I need cash."

hehe

@J.M. Haha.

So, I'm wondering how you proceed when setting up a price...

@CHM So, that sounds good ... what troubles you?

Mainly how I'm going to charge them.

I've already taken care of the piracy issue.

@CHM That depends a lot on how many people around can do what you are going to do for them ... and at what price

Not that it would have been a real problem...

@belisarius Many, I guess... they're just already employed.

Pricing requires some thought...

@CHM You already know the joke about the engineer and the screw, I guess

@J.M. Sure, I've just started thinking about it. I was wondering if there were obvious do's and don't's that I should know about.

@CHM There are a lot of do's and dont's ... it is called business

tell us a little more

Heh.

how did your client came to you?

Family.

danger will robinson ...

ok. what kind of program is it?

A family member, for him and his coworkers. Paycheck/warrant of payment verification. Making sure everybody's dues are paid.

Nothing fancy.

@CHM Oh, dear. How close?

But at the same time, very specific. Most of the trouble I've had concerns sanitizing the data provided by 3 third parties (no pun).

@J.M. Close enough so that I chose cash.

@CHM That was a good answer ! :)

@CHM I was thinking more about "hey, can't I have a 'friends and family' discount?"...

@CHM For data cleansing there are a lot of specific software out there

@J.M. Yeah... it all depends on how I'll set the pricing.

"fiends and family"?

@belisarius Already done, anyway.

@CHM ok. lets talk about $.

I have 11 buyers, btw.

$10/ hour is the minimum (in India)

LOL

$200/hour is the maximum I saw a programmer charge for specialty and difficult software

Ok. Considering I've spent about 40-50 hours on it until now, I would end up not selling it at that price xD

@belisarius Yes, some people have the (annoying, IMHO) habit of asking for some discounts just because they're friends or family.

@CHM But ... if you are going to sell the item more than once,

@belisarius But I like your typo. :)

@J.M. Made me laugh too.

@J.M. It wasn't

you don't know my family

So if I were to sell it once, you'd suggest I fix a price based on a hourly tariff?

But not if I sell it to a bunch of people. That's what I was thinking at first.

@CHM Yep it is the easiest way to justify a price

I guess I'll go for 150$ per MB.

And I'll do the MegaBucks.

@CHM When you plan to sell a piece several times you charge the first customer just the operating expenses. The rest you charge the customizing expenses plus ... whatever you want

@belisarius Point taken. :)

@CHM However, if the software is for only one client, you should charge him for every toil and sweat drop you are going to take

@belisarius Thanks.

It's not done yet, so I can't fix a price, but I'll write down a couple of possibilities.

@CHM Please, if you get rich, continue to hang by here :D

@CHM Well ... that is a problem. Next time fix the price IN ADVANCE

you will see ...

Hehe.

Maybe it would have been wiser... I just accepted and started working on it.

figured it couldn't be worse than not being paid at all

ok, now you can chose to lose money or family

@belisarius *agonizes*

:D

I firmly believe some incest could not be worse than that

hehe

@CHM Good luck with your startup!

All the best luck, indeed.

@belisarius thanks.

Now that you mention startup... I might need to take a look at incorporation, just in case.

@CHM Yeah ... take a look and then defer it until you really need it

I guess that will depend on how much I charge.

As I'm still a student, I don't pay income taxes below a certain threshold.

@CHM Or an LLC, whichever is more convenient.

@CHM It is better to charge them monthly than to become a running business when you are not ready for it

@J.M. my Law knowledge resembles Exp[-x] as x tends to infinity - only its behaviour isn't asymptotic.

@belisarius But then I have to contact them every month and bleh...

@CHM It is simple. A company means taxes. Taxes mean less money for you.

@belisarius Black market it will be, then.

@CHM Nahhh Then there are bank transfers

@CHM Thing is, if you're going to be going the corporate route, you'll have to review the laws anyway... or hire somebody to do it for you. One costs time, the other costs money. Now, pick.

@CHM ...and that's a very popular method for system circumvention.

It is of course a gamble.

@J.M. True. But I'm light-years away from that scenario.

I'll concentrate on finishing and packing up the product, sell it to the interested, and take it from there.

@CHM pragmatic, that is good

Okay. Just saying what you're up against if you take that particular fork in the road. But for now, write the bloody thing. ;)

Thanks guys.

@J.M. We forgot mentioning him our consulting bargain prices

LOL

I was going to mention that, believe it or not.

ha!

@belisarius Oh, right. Is our joint PayPal account still up?

@J.M. I made a check for the last $15K yesterday at the restaurant

hope you don't mind

@belisarius Damn. You should have sent me at least some of the white truffles...

I only have BitCoins.

@CHM accepted

(...the caviar's all yours, though.)

Maybe I should have written that properly: BitCoin, without an s.

@J.M. hehe I was just about to make a joke about me buying some payment reconciliation software for $15K, but desisted

@belisarius Gneh.

@CHM BitchCoins are accepted too

@belisarius En Colombia se dice Credinalgas.

@CHM En Colombia no hay otra opción

@belisarius I don't like those; too noisy, and they demand for more...

Haha.

@J.M. Attention.

@J.M. You are talking about small change.

@CHM Yes, and also coins.

@belisarius Try telling them that in their presence... *slap* *ow!*

@J.M. I never did. And I swear I will not do it again.

hehe

Hey, on another subject entirely: is there any new information on MMA 9's release?

<_< Tired.

@CHM Someone said it will come out in Sept/Oct

@CHM ***** **** **** ** *** ******

WRI seems to be involved in the final bug correction sprint

@BrettChampion Wow, I actually understood what you said! :D

@BrettChampion Funny how I just mentioned this, and you joined the chatroom.

Spying on us?

@BrettChampion Hangman?

Yup. I just finished watching a movie and checked the transcript. And saw something too good to pass up. :)

@BrettChampion which?

@J.M. Your talent

@belisarius "Jazz" -- blog.wolfram.com/2010/08/13/25-best-hangman-words

@belisarius I was asking about the movie. :P

@BrettChampion Update your profile info!

Captain America. (My wife and I recently saw The Avengers in a theater and decided we should go back and actually watch the earlier movies.)

@J.M. :D

@BrettChampion Seems a nice article!

@belisarius I haven't read it in a while, but as I recall his rules were much more lenient than we used when I was a kid.

@BrettChampion Did you use a tight noose then?

@belisarius The ropes were hemp back then, not nylon... >:)

@J.M. Yeah that was before the androids dreamed of electric sheep

@belisarius We started with the scaffolding already built.

@BrettChampion Typical. And then you tortured the other player's dog until he hurried up and made a mistake. Childish play

@Verbeia Hi!

@belisarius No, no, just some mild taunting.. ("Q! Z! V!, Gamma!")

Hey, Verbeia! You still on a business trip?

@BrettChampion Hehe. Fair play

@BrettChampion ...and include Hebrew letters for extra nastiness.

Hi all, yes I am on my way home now.

There's a new question which is kind of made for an answer from me. Yes, you can learn Mathematica as your first and only programming language, because that is what I did. Also he is an economist. But it's going to have to wait till I get home. Sblom's answer is excellent anyway.

@Verbeia We'll be waiting... :)

@J.M. Party at Verbeia's house!!!

Still, somebody has to write the question for celebrating our graduation. Confetti's already taken, so...

@Verbeia I look forward to seeing your answer.

See you, I might start writing it on the plane. I can't sleep for the whole 14 hours from Dubai.

@Verbeia It's the first programming language I put effort into as well.

@BrettChampion just reading through that blog post. My first response, holy .... he used a Monte Carlo sim to determine the best words. Sounds like something I'd try to do ... :)

Bye.

@rcollyer Monte Carlo Simulation is a technique for taking vacations in MonteCarlo while pretending to work

@belisarius :)

good night all.

@CHM night!

@J.M. Thanks for editing the FAQ! One thing I noticed is that the first thing my eye was drawn to was the bulleted list. I noticed that bullet list even before I noticed that this was the list of off-topic things. People tend to skim more than read, so I'm worried that on a superficial glance it might look like W|A is on-topic.

@Szabolcs I bolded out the words "off-topic", but I need to think about how to make a bullet list of allowed questions...

Is this really too racy ... (@MrW's comment)? I think the effect is good on this photo. It won't work well on any photo.

@Szabolcs Not for me...

@acl I think a more direct comparison would be that mental arithmetic tutoring such as rote memorizing of multiplication tables shouldn't be compulsory at schools. The level of skill and knowledge involved in either task (simple arithmetic or basic computer usage) is minimal so the exercise is IMO only really useful to provide pupils with some familiarity with the principles involved. If they need to gain a high degree of proficiency in those tasks they can pick it up later on by themselves.

@Szabolcs I don't think it's too racy, but I'm not really comfortable with the idea of taking photos of unsuspecting people on public beaches and then spreading the pictures around the Internet. (I realise the taking of the picture and its publishing on Flickr has nothing to do with you, of course.) It's legal, but IMO socially unacceptable; I would be annoyed if it happened to me for instance as I think would most people.

@OleksandrR. I was thinking of being assigned (as an exercise) to factorise something like 100 quadratics expressions per day for a few days at school (needless to say I didn't do them). yes, you'll get temporarily good at factorising small integers, and then?

@Oleksandr rote memorization of multiplication tables can't really be avoided, so I think that's different (eg it still takes me longer to recall what 7*8 is than all the others, and I can tell every time it crops up--there's no trick I can use to avoid recalling that, apart from doing 6*8+8 which is even slower).

(you'd have thought that having to do that so many times it'd have speeded up by now, but no...)

@acl that's exactly the point, though. If someone is going to learn something anyway when they need to use it frequently, I think teaching it in a class is a waste of time. Basic familiarity (in this case the concept of multiplication) is helpful, but drilling pupils by making them recite multiplication tables accomplishes very little. Since the time available to educate children is limited, it seems to me they would be better off doing something else.

@acl the most worthless exercise I ever had in a math class was to solve systems of 2 or 3 linear equations iteratively by hand. There were about 50 of these to do and the next section of the workbook showed how to do it algebraically, which of course is much quicker and more reliable. I could not and still cannot understand what the motivation for introducing the trial and error approach could possibly be except to fill time in class.

Interesting discussion, you two. Seen this?

@J.M. yes, I have seen that and mostly agree with Gray. Not sure if I would introduce Mathematica in schools, or if so then do it quite late on, but certainly the cheapness and universal availability of calculators makes mental arithmetic skills almost valueless except in certain occupations (bartender or shopkeeper, perhaps).

@J.M. well he has a point, but why mathematica and not something free (python with scipy, say)?

most people simply can't afford mathematica, so teaching them using mathematica would be like getting them addicted to cocaine

(somewhat :) )

@OleksandrR. but actually my point is, I am suffering from not properly memorizing that table even now, a BSc and a PhD later. So maybe rote memorization at the right time is useful. I am just not sure what the right time is for each concept/skill.

@acl That's probably one of the few sticking points of Gray's argument, but I have to say he's mostly sensible...

(FWIW, I had trouble with multiplication tables until I was 9 or so. Then somebody showed me how you can represent a multiplication fact as a grid, and that changed everything...)

@J.M. but you need to remember what goes into each slot, which is when you may run into trouble

@J.M. what he says is sensible. I'd just say "computer software" when he says "mathematica". and I don't think software is yet at the stage that it can replace manual symbolic manipulation everywhere (I never use mathematica for analytical calculations, for instance--but that is a feature of what type of calculations you tend to do, too)

@acl Not really, as soon as I realized you'd still have the same number of entries in the grid even after you transpose it. (That's how I remembered commutativity as well.)

@acl well, I understand your objection (I'm not very good with mental arithmetic either). I tend to find though that I always have more important things to think about, so picking up a calculator to make sure I don't make any mistakes isn't really a problem. I definitely wouldn't say it constitutes suffering (for me, anyway).

@J.M. ok let me rephrase. I still need to remember what goes into each slot. otherwise, I can just extrapolate from neighbouring slots much faster than transposing or doing anything else

@OleksandrR. yes, "suffering" that was a bit hyperbolic :)

@acl Okay. Probably the only reason it worked out well for me wast that I was good with shapes and stuff when I was a kid (and also why I took to geometry rather quickly). Arithmetic mostly bored the hell out of me, though.

Though I still have the perverse sense of pleasure in knowing how much change I'll get way before the cashier or the cash register does. They blink when I blurt out how much change I'll get when they weren't done totaling up my bill... :D

Wow! Congratulations for everyone for the graduation! I missed the whole event... :/

Amazing look and feel!

About the community promotion ads: I would be glad to see ads for physics.SE, math.SE, statistics.SE, and perhaps computational-science.SE here. If anyone who is a member of any of those sites wants to post them on meta, I'll gladly vote for them.

(It seems silly to have community promotion ads promoting only our own site...)

@Szabolcs Yummy.

@acl Same here, except no PhD. Sometimes I wish my teachers had been stricter and enforced more discipline.

@J.M. Interesting read.

What do we do with this question? It's a simple set/set-delayed problem, solved in the comments, yet not significant enough to warrant an answer (and won't be useful in future either). I've voted to close as TL

@belisarius Thanks :)

@R.M What for?

For what?

grrr

Well, I favoured closing it since it was a localized problem, but your edit makes it fine

Normally I would've made that edit, but I can't think right now... still sleepy after an all-nighter (it's 2pm now)

@R.M Working, I hope :)

@belisarius Unfortunately, yes

@R.M Oh well, working all night does not help humanity but always gives us a conversation theme :)

@belisarius it gives you the illusion that you have a few hours more to get stuff done before a meeting :P

@R.M I almost abandoned that practice. Learned it from Stephen W. himself

blog.wolfram.com/2012/04/05/…

@belisarius Yes, I've noticed myself that I'm more productive with regular sleep and no-allnighters...

but the arrogance of youth forces me to do otherwise occasionally :)

@R.M Just evade meetings

heh, that's always my plan B. I think it's about time I made it plan A

@R.M I particularly hate "project control" meetings, so when a project starts I produce a very boring ppt. They excuse themselves quickly for the following ones

Dilbert probably resonates more with you then... I mean, I absolutely love it, but I don't have a PHB of my own to relate to it. PhD comics is right on the money for me though :)

@R.M There is always a PHB hiding somewhere. Perhaps you still didn't meet him

I'm probably my own PHB

Do you publish papers? Think of those referees ... PHBs!

Ah, yes... the referees can be PHBs. I've had mostly favourable reviews thus far, so I'm not scarred yet. It's only a matter of time though...

@R.M You can bet on that

Hello people

@R.M There is a marvelous word in English that hasn't a correlate in Spanish. "Procrastination" I fell in love with it at first sight

@Rojo Hi!

Hey

@belisarius It has a correlate!

or at least the spanglish version has become quite used already that it feels like Spanish... Procrastinación

@Rojo Buuuu

Haha

I see you fell in love only with the English version

That reminds me of the "new" meaning for "bizarro"

Yeah, I am not sure right now about what's the new and what's the "correct" meaning

Not sure "any more" I meant

Let's see what interesting questions I missed durint this kinda busy week

Wow

All the meanings I expected are new then

:5449152 The most common use in Spanish used to be "esplendido". That was before the Global Village

I think both answers to this question are wrong (or at least are not answering the question)

Let's see

@belisarius If you were a true fan, you'd have put away loving it for later :P

@belisarius Teach them how to answer a question ;)

sorry. need to go. se you l8r

Buhbye