The Whiteboard

12:02 AM

meaning...someone's arguing not to use comma-separated multi-declarations because it'd confuse newbies, or not to do so with raw pointers, or what exactly?

BarryTheHatchet

they're arguing that, in general, teaching int *ptr is better than int* ptr. Because someone might one day do int* ptr1, ptr2.

Ixrec

wtf

BarryTheHatchet

yeah.

edge cases are the most important thing now apparently

Ixrec

personally I just don't do comma-separated multi-declarations, since I rarely need them anyway in C++

BarryTheHatchet

exactly

nobody does

Ixrec

12:07 AM

for some reason I use them regularly in Javascript (where there are no similar edge cases to worry about), but with C++...I think it's that I need explicit initializers more often? maybe?

BarryTheHatchet

meanwhile, int* ptr might not represent how the parser works, fine, but int *ptr is extremely confusing for newbs trying to get their heads around the difference between "pointer type" and "dereference operation"

I find teaching the latter to be frankly irresponsible

@Ixrec hmm yeah probably agree

Ixrec

I agree that putting the * in the "type name part" is waaaaay more intuitive

tbh the fact that you're allowed to put it on either part is fairly silly

BarryTheHatchet

agree with that too probably

yet more C++ nonsense eh

never actually thought of that

@BarryTheHatchet If you think that's an unusual edge case you are a fortunate soul. — zwol 5 mins ago

haha I give up

TIL that.. I dunno... too much stupid in the world. can't be fixed. I give up

also is it just me or is that comment somewhat offensive

"awww little baby you have no experience wait til you're my age and have done some programming and you'll see I'm right"

I'm a little drunk

Ixrec

oh, derp, one of the reasons I need comma initialization in JS is because JS is function scoped (yes we don't have let yet, stop laughing) so whenever I want to use the same variable name in two places I need to "manually hoist" it out, so in some functions I end up with more variables at the top without initializers than I would in a block-scoped language

BarryTheHatchet

I avoid JavaScript when I can

which is basically never

Ixrec

12:12 AM

@BarryTheHatchet not necessarily, it could also mean you're lucky to have all of your experience in a codebase/project where this never came up

I've never had to deal with pre-ES5 Javascript for instance

BarryTheHatchet

@Ixrec it comes up loads. my point is that once you apply proper coding discipline and prevent those instances from hitting trunk, you don't have that problem any more. so it's entirely moot.

simply don't allow people to commit such stupid code and there's no issue

Ixrec

true, I've never had a JS semicolon insertion bug bite me in prod either (also because we aren't idiots)

BarryTheHatchet

yep :P

I'm not saying it can't happen

but to literally go around teaching a certain thing just on the offchance that that might happen

that seems monumentally dumb to me

Ixrec

it's the sort of thing that would be extremely hard to not catch if you run the code once

BarryTheHatchet

like teaching people not to drive because they might crash

to me it's another of those "ok fine but net negative" things

twice in one day!

Ixrec

12:15 AM

and in C++ especially, there's always a way to combine it with some other feature to shoot yourself in the foot

BarryTheHatchet

lately the more I use SO the more I think the language isn't the problem. it's the people.

though I still think C++ sucks arse

Ixrec

agreed, all languages have loads of problems, but all the decent ones have a subset that's perfectly usable if you stick to it and do all the usual coding hygiene stuff

BarryTheHatchet

like washing your ~~hands~~ IDE

wow, lots of political intrigue in the news tonight

Duga

Wrong site. This site is for programming and programmers tools related questions, not networking and server configuration. The help center has more information regarding the topics that are appropriate here. Good luck. — Ken White 10 secs ago

BarryTheHatchet

uh uh

BarryTheHatchet

12:33 AM

The Flash TV Series (2014) End Credits Theme

►

nn

BarryTheHatchet

1:04 AM

I was offered sex today, with a 21 year old girl, in exchange I was supposed to advertise some kind of bathroom cleaner to my friends. Of course I declined because I am a person of high moral standards with strong will power. Just as strong as Ajax, the super strong bathroom cleaner, now available scented lemon or vanilla.

Duga

3:06 AM

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on Programmers. — Potatoswatter 45 secs ago

Duga

4:51 AM

Unfortunately this question is too broad to be answered on StackOverflow. You may get better results at programmers.stackexchange.com instead. — dreamlax 1 min ago

Duga

8:04 AM

@dreamlax "too broad" is a close reason at Programmers.SE too. We'd use it on this question just as quickly as you guys did. — Ixrec 47 secs ago

BarryTheHatchet

9:56 AM

Ixrec

that's not good

BarryTheHatchet

10:19 AM

just hit 195k

goal to reach 200k by mid April going very badly ;p

BarryTheHatchet

1:03 PM

where is everyone

Ixrec

I'm in England for some reason

BarryTheHatchet

rly

MetaFight

2:01 PM

@Ixrec I bet you you're damp right now.

Ixrec

nope, it doesn't rain here nearly as often as people say it does

but I am in the East of England, I believe it's wetter in the West and North

BarryTheHatchet

it rains literally ~~all the time~~ every day

Ixrec

whereabouts are you?

BarryTheHatchet

East Mids

MetaFight

@Ixrec Is this visit Doctor Who related?

BarryTheHatchet

2:04 PM

IIRC there's a con on soon or now

Ixrec

@MetaFight I live here, lol

BarryTheHatchet

and it does have DW guests

and don't think I didn't see that comma splice

MetaFight

@Ixrec oh. heh. sorry.

@Ixrec and/or "go back to, uh, Britain!"

Ixrec

@BarryTheHatchet is the optimal punctuation "I live here. lol." ? I've never been clear on the rules for punctuating textspeak

BarryTheHatchet

@BarryTheHatchet I agree it's a misuse of comments, I still see it as better than a succinct answer. Obviously I'll keep an eye on this thread, I honestly never thought it may be an annoying behavior and I'll adhere to SO policy about this. — Adriano Repetti 4 mins ago

apparently comment abuse is "better" than a short answer? wtf?

at least he's open to change

2 mins ago, by Ixrec

but I am in the East of England, I believe it's wetter in the West and North

Ixrec

2:05 PM

I think I succeeded in making the conversation more productive, the latest comments are raising much more moderate positions/semi-legitimate motivations than the first wave

BarryTheHatchet

they're getting there

Ixrec

@BarryTheHatchet oh, right

BarryTheHatchet

you did a good job

the "wrong" answers are still attracting upvotes though

Ixrec

RE your PS about trying to be helpful in off-topic questions. I would like to do this, but don't want to add an answer as any upvoted/accepted answers would cause the question to avoid the Roomba. I want the question gone but don't want to dismiss the person asking the question. — DavidG 4 mins ago

BarryTheHatchet

we may need to start murdering people

@Ixrec :(

Ixrec

2:06 PM

I can especially sympathize with this "I still want the roomba to eat it" position

BarryTheHatchet

if it shouldn't be answered it shouldn't be answered

Ixrec

I don't know that I agree with that position but at least it's coherent

BarryTheHatchet

this "but i want to helppppp" thing is silly

the guy literally just admitted to circumventing the system

if you don't like the way the roomba works, ask on meta for it to be changed!!

Ixrec

there may also be an element of "I would like to tell the system this should just be deleted eventually but there's no way to do that at my rep level unless I come back to it later when I am allowed to delete vote it and that involves far more effort than the question deserves"

which goes back to the whole nobody has enough close/delete votes thing

BarryTheHatchet

yeah "so I'll just contribute to the decay of the site instead"

Ixrec

2:09 PM

but I'm meandering now

BarryTheHatchet

miaow

Ixrec

I do think you're being a little harsh...but you're definitely not wrong

BarryTheHatchet

BarryTheMurderer

2

Q: Is there a Yum Option that Creates an Error if a Package is Missing?

I am using a set of local yum repositories and trying to install a set of packages from those repos. I noticed that when one of the packages on the command line does not exist, Yum just prints out that it was not found and goes along its merry way. Can I make Yum quit when this happens? Is there...

just got hit by this

wtf

wonder whether dnf does it better

Aaron Hall

Decay? The site just keeps getting better and better for most users (who find what they're looking for through Google...)

BarryTheHatchet

@AaronHall lol good one

Aaron Hall

2:21 PM

Thanks, Bubbles!

hmm... your nick hasn't updated yet...

BarryTheHatchet

Supergirl yay

I like how she always has time to curl her hair when she changes

Aaron Hall

what's the point in fighting crime if you can't look good when you do it?

I substitute taught while working on my MBA (ya know, to help make ends meet) and I'd sometimes wear a really red tie with a really blue shirt. The younger kids would ask me if I'm really spiderman.

BarryTheHatchet

suppose

@AaronHall I still have a few days left on this one

Virgin Media being a bit crap atm. Service Status page doesn't even work -.-

used to be awesome. so far this year they've been frankly terrible...

@AaronHall well, are you?

Aaron Hall

you never know

BarryTheHatchet

I would if you told me

Aaron Hall

2:31 PM

Back to the anti-entropy of the site - the more upvotes my lowly ranked canonicals get, the better the site gets. And they are - slowly.

If you want to really improve the site, go find all the canonical Python questions, and help push bad answers down (and good ones up).

After you do Python, you can move on to the other tags. :)

I have a publisher bugging me for a book outline. I still haven't done it because I don't think I've "made it" yet.

BarryTheHatchet

A Python book?

Aaron Hall

> Hey Aaron,
I randomly saw one of your posts on StackOverflow today without even knowing it was you. As I was reading it, I was thinking, this is very well written. Well, imagine my surprise when I got to the bottom and saw the author! Thank you for writing that!
Cheers,
JM

I just found that in my email.

I love getting that stuff.

BarryTheHatchet

I would really like to get a mod's or CM's view on the comment-answers thing

if even CMs are going to start treating SE like Quora then fine I'll back off and accept that I've lost (and, well, that we've all lost frankly)

at least it'll put me out of my misery

and if they're not then we're golden

tl;dr I'm bored of silly people writing their silly things on there

Aaron Hall

I'm taking a pic and tweeting that email.

BarryTheHatchet

> StackOverflow

fire him

@AaronHall Do you have the legal right to do so?

Aaron Hall

2:42 PM

you think I shouldn't?

BarryTheHatchet

I don't think you should unless you have the right to reproduce it, no.

If someone took my private emails and tweeted them to the whole internet, without permission, I'd be more than a little pissed off.

Aaron Hall

well I clipped the name

BarryTheHatchet

Now you're reproducing without permission and without attribution!

Aaron Hall

lol

Ask first?

Ixrec

attribution is hard

BarryTheHatchet

2:47 PM

Maybe just move on I dno

Aaron Hall

Why don't you just Barry the Hatchet?

BarryTheHatchet

in his face?

wtf

Ixrec

sounds like something my team lead would do and I'd be puzzled by the blob of 50 Jira emails, but then he'd explain it in the next team meeting and it'd sound perfectly sensible

BarryTheHatchet

or emailing someone to let them know that you just sent them an email

Ixrec

BarryTheHatchet

2:55 PM

haha

Ixrec

ok my team lead doesn't go that far

Aaron Hall

I like duck-typing.

BarryTheHatchet

it wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for his other habit

Ixrec

(oddly enough I got that comic from an ancient blog post about type systems, which seems relevant)

BarryTheHatchet

heh

maybe I should start doing it for a while

might get the point across

in the most passive aggressive way possible

might also seem like I'm just taking the piss though

Aaron Hall

2:59 PM

getting drunk?

I don't really understand that idiom

Ixrec

"pissed" can mean being drunk, but "taking the piss" is more like saying something without being entirely serious

Aaron Hall

hopes his wild guess and disclaimer of knowledge don't undermine his credibility

acting in the manner of a guy getting drunk?

Ixrec

/shrug

Aaron Hall

Yeah, best to figure out the main thing that makes the boss happy and give it to them.

Ixrec

that's (probably) what they're paying us for after all

Aaron Hall

3:06 PM

Yeah, but you don't do it for the money, you do it for future career support.

Ixrec

well, I do it because it's fun, but I'm weird

Aaron Hall

Don't be so obsequious.

:)

My manager's one big thing seems to be: "don't break production."

Ixrec

well, I also do it because they pay me a lot

that was a big thing for us around the end of 2015, though somehow we got a lot better at it

now all the fires we put out are on alpha so our manager never sees most of them

Aaron Hall

Hiring competent people is hard. Hiring incompetent people is easy. Once you get the competent people, you want to keep them. hence - $$$$.

Lawand

Hi everyone. I have a CSS question, and I guess the right place is to ask it here in the chat.
Here it is: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/314690/css3-design-question
Any ideas would be appreciated.

Kit Z. Fox

3:20 PM

Happy Coffee Day.

BarryTheHatchet

@AaronHall which idiom

oh

taking the piss is taking the mickey. taking the michael.

Taking the piss

Taking the piss is a Commonwealth term meaning to take liberties at the expense of others, or to be unreasonable. It is often used to mean (or confused with) taking the piss out of, which is an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff. It is also not to be confused with "taking a piss", which refers to the act of urinating. Taking the Mickey (Mickey Bliss, Cockney rhyming slang) or taking the Michael is another term for making fun of someone. These terms are most widely used in the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. == Usage == The term sometimes refers...

my usage was short for "taking the piss out of him" actually

> It is also not to be confused with "taking a piss", which refers to the act of urinating.

heh

Kit Z. Fox

or taking a mickey, which means to be drugged.

BarryTheHatchet

bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/35960428

dat rocket touchdown!

awesome

Aaron Hall

@Lawand It probably seems like a good idea, but it really isn't. People are watching the front page for things they want to answer. Posting it here will likely bring it negative attention - and since it's off-topic to request resources, it's already closed. You should probably ask for CSS resources on a web-dev Reddit or somesuch.

reddit/r/css maybe?

Lawand

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll post it there. Cheers

Aaron Hall

3:29 PM

Good luck, I make no promises as to your results.

BarryTheHatchet

I quote:

> You may be able to get help in The Whiteboard, our chat room.

Aaron Hall

That may be overpromising.

BarryTheHatchet

@BarryTheHatchet I think you are missing the point. the point is these "unanswered questions" ARE answered, in the comments. — Kevin B 29 secs ago

WTAF

I'm losing it

I'm honestly getting distressed at how many completely illogical people there seem to be on SO hell-bent on violating every system it has...

Aaron Hall

This is my main point:

@KevinB: Then post them as answers so that they no longer show up in the unanswered question section.... — BarryTheHatchet 2 mins ago

not for that reason, but that's my solution.

BarryTheHatchet

it's just.... basic obviousness...

Ixrec

3:34 PM

whoa, lots of new answers on that thread since I last looked

Aaron Hall

So I really don't think it's even worth the attention we're giving it.

Ixrec

though I baffled that you're so bothered by the one answer that seems to be more in agreement with you than any other so far

BarryTheHatchet

I've forgotten which comments go on which answers

the comments are bothering me

the answer isn't so bad

though I don't like the defeatist mentality

"no we can't do it properly because one person doesn't do it properly"

Ixrec

the last few comments here about what constitutes "unanswered" is where I've completely lost you actually, it sounds like you're all agreeing with each other but phrasing it just strangely enough that you all think the other is insane

BarryTheHatchet

ok

Ixrec

3:37 PM

I think everyone agrees that having a bunch of questions in the "unanswered" section that actually are answered (by a comment) is not a good thing

BarryTheHatchet

lol

Ixrec

I don't think anyone actually advocated for continuing to do such a thing or endorsed the behavior of this Lua comment answering fiend

but it is a bit hard to tell

BarryTheHatchet

ok I'll try to salvage it

Ixrec

one of the reasons I seriously think everyone should take philosophy at some point is that it teaches you how not to be so ambiguous in the way you present your arguments that people might interpret them as the exact opposite of what you meant

BarryTheHatchet

good idea

Kit Z. Fox

3:39 PM

I agree. People should definitely not ever take philosophy.

BarryTheHatchet

maybe we should just shut down the site

Kit Z. Fox

;D

BarryTheHatchet

or change its name or something

Ixrec

ok, let's all go to Philosophy.SE

@BarryTheHatchet I think what they're trying to argue is that the meta thread is pointless because there's no way to stop people from doing this

imo just getting a clear meta consensus that this is a bad thing would already be a huge improvement on the status quo, even if it's totally unenforceable or whatever

BarryTheHatchet

there is a way

flags

and even if there weren't

as I said in the question I at least wanted us to come to an agreement that such a thing is not desirable behaviour

otherwise everyone will start doing it

although lately it seems like they are anyway

so I don't buy it

Kit Z. Fox

3:46 PM

ffs non-blue always with the flags. then you handle the flags and the community's all like 'mod abooz, unilateral things and my RIGHTS! and free speech and he did it too!'

</grumbling>

Ixrec

it's nice to hear about other sites' problems

BarryTheHatchet

then you ban 'em :P

Duga

@OMGtechy I see that the question is a bit off-topic on this site. Maybe it should be moved to programmers.stackexchange.com? — Sergey 34 secs ago

BarryTheHatchet

@BarryTheHatchet: "Then post them as answers so that they no longer show up in the unanswered question section...." I do not come to Stack Overflow to be a janitor. — Nicol Bolas 8 mins ago

frak me

I give up

that comment has upvotes!!!!!!!!!!!

@Shog I need you!!!

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