The Whiteboard

user41796

5:00 PM

@JimmyHoffa I honestly think it's too broad, but haven't voted on it. Okay, I lied. I just voted.

Ixrec

I have no idea what he's after, so...some close reason probably applies

Jimmy Hoffa

perhaps the fault lies with me and Rob for answering-by-comment

Ixrec

couldn't be bothered to actually vote on it yet

Kit Z. Fox

I think we have at least nine Meta questions complaining about comments being deleted.

Yannis

@JimmyHoffa It's in the close queue, no reviews yet.

user41796

5:01 PM

@KitZ.Fox You should delete those too then. :-P

Kit Z. Fox

On at least one of them, the OP put inflammatory comments about the mods, then deleted them himself, and posted that the mods had done it.

user41796

Oh, that's awesome

Jimmy Hoffa

@Yannis fair enough. It seems like a good question except the part where I can't find a question in it, want some review of my thoughts on that but if it's in review queue, I suppose I just need merely to wait.

user41796

click-click-show deleted comments. Screenshot!

Ixrec

> It seems like a good question except the part where I can't find a question in it

hm

Kit Z. Fox

5:03 PM

Which is complicated by the fact that they probably would have been deleted by the community for being offensive. But maybe not.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa 3 VTC made that a lot easier. Just saying.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec he hit's multiple marks for quality: Detail, legwork, topicality, he just kinda missed the mark on the key piece of something answerable

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Yeah, except we have a policy about not doing stuff like that.

Ixrec

close vote and upvote? (does anyone ever do this?)

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec I did (not the first time either)

user41796

5:04 PM

> I'm sorry, but I "accidentally" suspended your account will capturing the evidence of your blatant lying.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox At that point, they've brought it upon themselves. You see it on MSE every now and then where someone decides to take a private conversation with a mod out into the public space.

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah. It was the same user what pseudo-rage quit I mentioned yesterday.

user41796

They're just looking for drama at that point. Best way to shut that down is with the truth.

Kit Z. Fox

Not in this case. Best way is to stop engaging. I should have suspended him though. There were several other drama points in between. The wiki thing was interesting in light of that situation.

Jimmy Hoffa

This question is not really...answerable. I mean, there's no one answer to "How am I doing guys?" so I think it's going to get closed even though it's well put together with good detail, appropriate leg-work before writing it and being perfectly on topic. It's just not really answerable. That said, hop in The Whiteboard chat if you would like to have design discussions on P.SE. The SE chat system is a perfectly valid place for discussions, but the main sites don't really work well for it. — Jimmy Hoffa 9 secs ago

user41796

5:07 PM

The meatball wiki? Yeah, it's a great write-up

Kit Z. Fox

Instead, because I wasn't firm, the situation gradually escalated.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox You should make up for it by doubling the suspension length... :-D

Yannis

@JimmyHoffa I wish there was a way we could support design review questions, the way Code Review does.

user41796

@Yannis Thomas would like to see that as well

user41796

The challenge is how to make sure they remain sufficiently scoped so they're answerable

user41796

5:11 PM

Although ... how does CR handle the scoping aspect?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Yannis I'm not sure we can't as is, but I don't really know how to go about answering them necessarily. Like you said, CR handles it, perhaps we should create a meta to discuss an approach to handling them?

Ixrec

must be working non-example code, must be your code, must fit in a post, I think?

user41796

I don't hang out there often enough to understand how they handle the fact that you'll potentially end up with multiple answers addressing different parts of the question.

Ixrec

design reviews sound cool, though I have a hard time imagining how we could strike the balance between enough detail to review the thing versus so much detail we'd want to get paid for it

@GlenH7 well, often they do...

Yannis

@GlenH7 They don't care about that.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:13 PM

I've done perfectly well on CR myself, it just feels strange approaching a question in that way here - the format of the Q and A is totally different in those cases. We'd almost end up with 2 lanes in P.SE if we accepted those ones and handled them the same way CR handles review Qs. The resulting Q&A on those ones would stick out as very distinct and different from the rest of our sites content.

user41796

So an answer to a CR post isn't necessarily expected to be a complete answer, aka "the one true answer"

Yannis

yes. and we could do the same here with design review questions, but then we'd be opening a huge can of worms for every other question.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 it's a bit like meta: Up vote what you agree with, downvote what you disagree with type of thing.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Apparently no one else understands how the site operates (or so we're told), so I see minimal damage to the site by creating multiple lanes

Jimmy Hoffa

@Yannis true. The lines could get blurry, it could be very troubled..

Thomas Owens

5:15 PM

@Yannis Uh...we do.

Ixrec

I guess we could have a design-review meta tag like the soft-question one on Math.SE or the reality-check one on WB.SE

user41796

@ThomasOwens tightly scoped ones

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec SLAP

user41796

Not like the question at hand

Thomas Owens

22

Q: Are Design Review questions on-topic?

There is a gray area between Programmers & Code Review regarding design reviews. Code Review's on-topic page explicitly calls out design reviews as off-topic. However, if your question is not about a particular piece of code and instead is a generally applicable question about … Hi...

Jimmy Hoffa

5:15 PM

sorry, automatic response to the suggestion of a meta tag. Meta tags bad. NO! Bad @Ixrec! Bad!

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa sort of exposes why it's probably not a great idea, doesn't it?

user41796

@Ixrec But that's pretty much the only way to support a separate lane of questioning within a site

Yannis

@ThomasOwens The thing is I can't think of a question that would fit my definition of design review, that wouldn't also fit my definition of too broad.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 hyperbole aside: Obviously many people do understand it, as there are many people who close vote and maintain the site even if they don't agree with everything about our scope, they do understand and agree with a fair portion.

Ixrec

@GlenH7 that was why I mentioned it yeah, the "multiple lanes" thing is the only legit use of a meta tag that I'm aware of

or at least, the only one with obvious precedents

user41796

5:17 PM

Mi Yodeya does something similar with their annual allowance of hijinx on particular questions

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec SLAP

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa also downvoting, a huge portion of what we close has a negative score before it gets closed

Jimmy Hoffa

sorry, you suggested it again. There is no legit use of a meta tag

Ixrec

lol

go tell that to the rest of the network =P

Yannis

@gnat it appears this would be the best board for my question. to quote your link:"We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers a specific programming problem...is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development then you’re in the right place to ask your question! Questions seeking debugging help (why isn't this code working?) must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself" — grepNstepN 2 mins ago

Jimmy Hoffa

5:17 PM

@Ixrec I don't care about the rest of the network, it can rot in the bits of null for all I care.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa It's not really a meta tag though, as it's directly related to what the OP is asking about

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 this is perfectly ok! I'm just saying, meta tags bad. Period.

Ixrec

depends on your definition of meta tag

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec SLAP

user41796

@Yannis Fire the cannons....

Jimmy Hoffa

5:18 PM

@Ixrec it just triggers my marker interface defense mechanism you see

Kit Z. Fox

Someone take his slapper away.

Ixrec

/slaps Jimmy around a bit with a large trout

suddenly everyone goes quiet

Jimmy Hoffa

It's bad design in code and systems, it's bad design for organizing information period. Meta tag = marker interface = imaginary tag to segregate information that should be segregated by it's merits not a badge that may be misplaced and holds no inherent value or meaning.

user41796

But that having been said, allowing "full scale" design reviews would have some bleed-over effect on the rest of the site. And without additional community moderation tools, I think we'd be overwhelmed in trying to keep everything humming along

Ixrec

personally I would be more inclined to suggest a new Area51 site than to try and introduce it here

user41796

5:21 PM

@Ixrec Was thinking through the ramifications of allowing currently too broad design reviews

Ixrec

if only so that site gets AN ACCURATE NAME

(now that Lightness is gone I get to be the one complaining about that all the time)

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yes, this is really the trouble. Creating separate lanes in the same site would cause the same bleedover of having had our scope changed mid-run: People look at old junk and say "But look see! This is valid!". We have an arbitrary partition in our site already of NPR|P.SE, we already know what that bleed over looks like.

user41796

It looks like a bad 80's / 90's B-movie that went all out on the camp and gore.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 You leave Texas Chainsaw Massacre III out of it! What did it every do to you!?!

Ixrec

speaking of which, why did they make NPR do a 180 instead of creating a new, separate site to replace it?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:24 PM

@Ixrec brain transplant instead of letting the patient die. Sure it's not technically the same person anymore, but at least it's not dead.

user41796

@Ixrec They had no idea what the long term ramifications would be

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I like how you just said we're braindead

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 you misconstrue, NPR's brain was removed and replaced with ours. NPR got put in a jar on a shelf just waiting for Igor to grab it on accident.

user41796

No, no. I'm pretty certain you meant to call us braindead.

user41796

No brains, no blood. Just living off of scotch.

Ixrec

5:29 PM

and strategically spending delete votes on what's left of our old body

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec screw pinky toes. delete

always in the damned way

user41796

I need work and my regular life to calm down a bit so I get back to reviewing and deleting things.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 have you tried quitting and drinking? WP.SE guarantees this solution I think, right @enderland?

user41796

Former, no. Latter, yes.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I'm pretty sure it's a package deal.

Thomas Owens

5:34 PM

I revised my design review answer:

13

A: Are Design Review questions on-topic?

I think that, generally, design review type questions are on-topic. However, the problem is how broad they are. My concern for this type of question is that most of them may be more suited to a discussion environment. I do think that there are good design review questions, but they need to be cle...

Jimmy Hoffa

You know what... maybe there should be an A51 Designe Review proposal just because, it can encompass much more than coding.

user114359

> @GlenH7, why dont you be helpfu and provide the correct place instead of sniping for posts you can down vote.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa What?

user114359

I never knew Glen was a sniper

Kit Z. Fox

@Snowman Yeah, we went to school together. I was his spotter.

Team success today: Got me some reps on P.SE.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:38 PM

@ThomasOwens Design is about how things are put together conceptually, not literally. You can design software processes, you can design documentation structure, you can design an entertainment center, you can design your home ventilation, you can design a circuit board... These are all things with concepts backing the component organization of their literal construction. Design isn't about the literal construction, but the conceptual organization of something's component parts.

user114359

@KitZ.Fox unless we delete that question before 60 days

Kit Z. Fox

@Snowman Hush. Don't even. Let me feel good right now.

user114359

I am not sure why it was closed as POB. I am certain there is a dupe somewhere

Kit Z. Fox

Why did noöne mention that it was lunchtime? Way past it even.

user15026

Because in my world lunch is not for another 3 hours

user15026

5:43 PM

(Because I work 12-8 so it happens usually around 4)

Jimmy Hoffa

Common Essay design is something like Intro, Evidence, Conclusion, but for different purposes you may design such differently. Somebody could ask "I am designing an Essay format for an international forum of robots taking over the world. My design includes starting with an information rich header, and puts the conclusion first as the most relevant piece of data the robots will want, followed by 3 pages of whitespace for future versions to have meta-space without breaking compatibility."

user41796

@Snowman Thanks!

user41796

I'd say something else to that user, but ... meh.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Someone who is an expert in designing software may not be an expert in designing a circuit board or a mechanical widget or...

user114359

@GlenH7 too late, he already deleted his question in a fit of angst.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:44 PM

@ThomasOwens it would absolutely never, not in a million years, work. But it's an interesting thought experiment: A uniform "design whatever" review site.

user41796

OP opens the post "I know this doesn't belong here" and then gets offended when told the question doesn't belong. <sigh>

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens same goes for Java, Perl, and DOS, but SO has tags for each.

Thomas Owens

We have the experts on software design. Let's not make software experts go to another site. I already keep SO, Programmers, and Project Management open.

@JimmyHoffa You'll be more likely to find a programmer that knows two or three languages than someone who can design two or three types of things well.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens eh, I think creating separate lanes for review really just won't work. I'm with Bart

I think that most (all?) questions that get presented as a design review will be too broad. When you have got it narrowed down far enough, I believe that it will no longer be regarded as a review by the asker. — Bart van Ingen Schenau Mar 3 '14 at 13:47

review of the open-ended "Here's my stuffs. Ideas? How I did?" form which CR supports perfectly, simply cannot work here - but that doesn't mean SE shouldn't have a place for it.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa If CR supports it, that means the SE platform supports it. We have the experts who can answer such questions with authority. We shouldn't make them go to another site.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:47 PM

@ThomasOwens don't know that I agree... @GlenH7 and members of Engineering.SE can probably lend design advice to a great variety of things.

user114359

22

Q: Are Design Review questions on-topic?

There is a gray area between Programmers & Code Review regarding design reviews. Code Review's on-topic page explicitly calls out design reviews as off-topic. However, if your question is not about a particular piece of code and instead is a generally applicable question about … Hi...

discussion on-topic-definition design-review

user114359

I'm with @ThomasOwens on this one.

Thomas Owens

Personally, my professional expertise is already spread across too many sites: SO, Programmers, SQA, Project Management.

user15026

@GlenH7 That always annoys me when it happens

Thomas Owens

And we aren't even getting into the things related to my professional experience: Open Source, The Workplace.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:48 PM

@ThomasOwens You don't think we'll get bleedover where people start posting garbage and then pointing at review Q's on our site proclaiming "But look! You guys allow anything, answerable or not! You can't claim my Q is too broad and unanswerable! Now why is C not Assembly??"

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa No, I don't. Because there's a difference between a design review question and those other low quality questions.

Jimmy Hoffa

as for making review Q's not-too-broad which you suggested in your meta; can't happen. It would fundamentally not be a review Q then.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Traditional engineering lines tend to much more pigeonholed than software.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Why not?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens I don't disagree, but I think we'll be opening a can of worms.

@ThomasOwens because, look at CR.SE. "review" questions don't have a single correct answer.

user41796

5:50 PM

@ThomasOwens That's obvious to us but not necessarily as obvious to others

Jimmy Hoffa

It's no longer a review then, it's a question, and those are fundamentally different things.

user114359

Just because something is narrowly scoped does not mean it is not a review question. These are "good subjective" questions.

Thomas Owens

Effectively, that's what I'm expected to bring into a design review at work. (1) The design artifacts - code, models, explanations. (2) Something that I want to be made more robust or better. (3) Something that works, so I'm not wasting people's time - I need to prototype or do some level of making sure I'm not totally wrong.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman Review and Question are just fundamentally different. Questions have answers. Reviews don't even want "answers", they want criticisms. It's just apples and oranges.

user114359

The key is "what are my success criteria?" Not "make it better" or "what do you think" but "I am trying and failing to achieve X, how do I get there?"

Jimmy Hoffa

5:52 PM

@Snowman that's a question though, not a review request

user41796

And I agree with both major points being made - another SE site would lead to more fragmentation and I don't think the beta site would survive. But I also think that the bleedover would be difficult to contain on Progs with the current tools we've got

Thomas Owens

I consider those "design reviews" still.

Jimmy Hoffa

"how do I get to X" <-- this is not a review request.

Thomas Owens

If I bring my design to you and ask you how to get somewhere, I want you to review and improve my design.

user41796

And we'd need a couple more custom close reasons

Jimmy Hoffa

5:53 PM

@ThomasOwens that's fine that you want me to review your design, but fundamentally you asked a question and didn't request a review

user114359

@JimmyHoffa I disagree. When I have code reviews at work, sometimes they are open-ended, sometimes they are exactly what I described.

Jimmy Hoffa

I can't simply answer with criticisms of the overall design. CR.SE encourages precisely that

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Maybe my definition of design review is more broad than yours.

Most of my reviews at work are not open-ended. They answer specific questions.

user114359

I get your point that a design review can be the whiteboard equivalent of CR.SE

user114359

My concern about those types of questions is quality. They require a ton of context and understanding other parts of the system, in my experience.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:54 PM

@Snowman I hear you, I'm not saying you can't turn a focused-question into a larger review. I'm saying that a review request and the focused-question are not the same thing, even if they may have occasionally similar results.

user114359

Which is why there has to be a tighter focus, but I would still call them design review

Thomas Owens

I think @Snowman and I have the same opinion here. If you are looking at a design and have one or more focused questions, it's still called a design review. Or at least I (and my coworkers) call it a design review.

Maybe you don't call it a design review and that's the issue.

Kit Z. Fox

Woo! I just got a Pluralsight account.

Now I can watch YouTube and charge it to my projects.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman I don't disagree! Which is why I think they could simply never meet our sites quality standards. Fragmentation isn't as big a deal to me personally but even if you don't like it, that doesn't mean you should put things together when they are distinctly different things. This is why CR.SE is not SO.

user41796

This is the core of what @JimmyHoffa is saying: "I'm saying that a review request and the focused-question are not the same thing"

Thomas Owens

5:57 PM

@GlenH7 I guess I just disagree with that.

user114359

Sounds like we agree on everything other than what to call it.

user41796

It's the difference of the two lanes this would create on Progs

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens watch: Review my design, it has a client side front end, a REST endpoint, and that calls my repo for data access and my service for processing that data into MIDI files based on user's names.

^^^ Is that a request for review?

Kit Z. Fox

Well, you didn't say please.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Yes. But it's also too broad for Programmers.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:58 PM

^^^

my point

user41796

@KitZ.Fox He almost never does

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens Request for review != focused question

Kit Z. Fox

So then it is not actually a request.

user41796

@ThomasOwens I thought the point was that we were discussing allowing those broader types of design review questions

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 No. Not at all. They don't meet the criteria that I think are necessary for a good question.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:59 PM

@GlenH7 he didn't catch that and is trying to argue they don't exist because they're not important and he doesn't want another site to go to :P

user41796

@ThomasOwens That would explain why we're having a difficult time connecting. :-)

Thomas Owens

Now, if @JimmyHoffa's question had a specific problem: the design was difficult to unit test or didn't meet performance requirements but was functionally correct, then it would be OK.

We need a reason for doing the review. Are you trying to improve testability? Or maybe you're trying to do something with your design to make it more portable across platforms. Or maybe improve performance. Or make it into a distributed system instead of a local system.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens nobody's arguing that's not OK. We're all trying to figure out what SE should do about requests for review. If it's code, they can go to CR, if it's not code ... they have nowhere to go.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa They come to Programmers, if it's a software design review.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens but you just said my request for review won't work here, where does the person with the request for review I just described go?

user41796

6:02 PM

@ThomasOwens - part of this is driven by the question linked earlier, but we also see the CR mods drop by periodically asking about migrating what we'd call a too broad design review

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Nowhere. It's too broad for any site.

Jimmy Hoffa

They don't want to answer questions, they want a broad review of their design, just like someone in code can go to CR

user41796

So there's some need for it, the question is what would it do to the site mechanics

Thomas Owens

A broad review of the design is inappropriate. A specific, detailed review on particular aspects of the design is OK.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens that's true for P.SE

but SE is much more than just us

and P.SE can change. I don't think we should make room in our site for that stuff, but it's not impossible.

user41796

6:03 PM

@JimmyHoffa no, no it's not. SE is just us.

Thomas Owens

Honestly, I would argue that CR shouldn't exist.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens ah, well I'm glad you don't helm SE then because I quite like CR :P

user114359

@ThomasOwens trying to rustle some jimmies, eh?

user41796

@ThomasOwens It doesn't fit the traditional Q&A model as well

Thomas Owens

I like the idea of CR, but you should come in with specific concerns and not broad reviews.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:04 PM

@ThomasOwens meh. I think they made their site work. It's no toilet bin, it executes it's goal effectively. Works for me.

not a traditional use of the SE platform, but not an ineffective one either.

Kit Z. Fox

I need help with a user story.

I can't think out this "so that".

> As a customer, I want to be able to find products that have other products or services attached to them so that I can

I dunno. Buy them?

user41796

so that I can be aware of additional bundled offerings

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe so that I can see a list of all the products that I can get a service on?

user41796

Trying to think through why someone would care about that

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe I have framed it wrong. The customer needs to be able to find the products that have a particular service (or related product) so they can choose between them.

user41796

6:13 PM

so that I can compare related offerings

Kit Z. Fox

Yes. That works.

user41796

Do I want foo flavored with bar or do I want foo flavored with baz?

user41796

Let me compare and pretend to make up my mind before I become overwhelmed and throw my money at you crying out "just give me something!"

Kit Z. Fox

haha

It's more like I want baz-flavoring. Can I get it with foo or bar? Or do you only offer baz-flavored foo?

It doesn't help that the data is all murkied.

There is a big thing about trying to make a product sheet for a service right now. It's giving me a huge headache.

Especially since it does not solve what they are trying to solve and it makes it so much worse.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox The joys of when the potential logical combinations on paper don't align with the actual combinations.

user41796

6:21 PM

> Hey! We have a million ways we could do this, so let's map them all out even though we only sell 10 of them.

Kit Z. Fox

Imagine that you are selling an airplane. Your airplanes all have part numbers that amount to magic numbers in your system. Then your company decides to offer de-icing spray as a service on one particular kind of airplane. Then they give the service a magic part number. Then they decide they need a product spec sheet with the magic number on it for the service.

user41796

sounds like ... fun!

Kit Z. Fox

So basically it is the product spec sheet for the one airplane with a different number on it.

And when they want to apply the de-icing spray to a new airplane series next quarter, they will give that one a new magic number too, and make a copy of its product sheet the same way.

And they are not appreciating my argument that it is a service, so treat it as a separate thing with its own charge and don't multiply your data like this.

user41796

Awesome. Because the de-icing spray service will be different with a new part number!

Kit Z. Fox

Different but the same.

user41796

6:27 PM

I could see the argument about the quantity of de-icier being different

Kit Z. Fox

So duplicated products with identical services and different numbers.

user41796

but the service and underlying product itself is the same

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 That's understood, but then make the service in different quantities or whatever.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox yeah, don't worry. That's never created problems for other people before.

Kit Z. Fox

But the good news is that I convinced them to unadulterate one meaningless label.

So I'm making progress!

user41796

6:29 PM

yep, that's progress worth celebrating

user41796

when you know something is going to bite you hard later on down the line... Best to avoid it

Kit Z. Fox

And I'm hoping that moving to Agile will make them feel like we are getting things done so then they will be more patient.

@GlenH7 I told the business owner "I know this seems small and you think I'm crazy for arguing the point, but this one exception will end up as two and then more and then you'll realize that it's different data so you'll have two places with the same data only slightly different. We don't want to go down that road."

Anyway, I finally convinced her.

I invited her to lunch after too, to help patch things up.

user41796

@ThomasOwens - here's another example on the design review bit we were kicking around earlier

user41796

@KitZ.Fox From my read of it, you're absolutely right on this one

user41796

What's worse is the folk in the field will remember only one of the n product numbers that they should be charging for.

Thomas Owens

6:34 PM

@GlenH7 Initial thoughts: too broad.

user41796

So you'll have fragmented data, a confused field team, and worthless actuals for identifying what was really done

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Really? It seemed pretty specific to me.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox Actually...yeah. He does have a specific problem.

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Yes, particularly since this one label is the root of fixing our compliance issue.

user41796

@ThomasOwens That's how I voted too. But we see enough of those that are decent quality to where it's worth entertaining the idea

Thomas Owens

6:35 PM

It's kind of buried in that wall of text.

However accessing objects through multilevel lists seems impractical (I think).. - he's specifically asking about the interface structure.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox Oh yuck. Compliance adds a whole other aspect of badness to the earlier solution

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Right? Because it means one tiny subset will still be non-compliant, and when you make it dirtier later, we're going to slip more out of compliance.

Because it's not clear what the label is actually for.

Anyway. I set it right. We're good for now.

user41796

I'd definitely call that a win

user41796

The biggest part of a successful compliance program is to make it easy to be compliant

Kit Z. Fox

grins Thanks. It does feel good. I haven't broken it to the project lead yet.

He had already agreed to doing it the wrong way.

So I kind of subverted him.

user41796

6:41 PM

In a previous life, I went rounds with a few folk from the PMO who though they knew how the process had to be defined for a highly sensitive area of the company that had a major exposure to compliance issues.

Kit Z. Fox

I even got a "sorry you lost this battle" conciliatory note from the big boss, which was nice and also a little awkward. I haven't responded to it and I'm not sure if I should.

@GlenH7 That must have been a challenge.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox "Nope, no battle, just a misunderstanding about long term ramifications affecting our ability to remain compliant with XYZ"

user41796

@KitZ.Fox It ... was a challenge

user41796

I quit that job in part because of the idiots-without-a-clue who kept forcing their flavor process on that team.

Kit Z. Fox

We're still building PMO in my organization. I have worked with the lead PM and really enjoyed it. He was the kind of PM you hope for.

I've worked with other PMs before and not had good experiences.

:27006276 haha. Yeah. I wish stuff like that were jokes.

user41796

6:44 PM

Worst PM I ever saw bragged about forcing the client to commit to (poor) plans and then promising to nail them with expensive change requests. And they did this in front of the client.

user41796

guess which clients never committed to those plans?

Kit Z. Fox

I did compliance support for petroleum inventory that rapidly degenerated into something along the lines of "Find the calculation error because the tank is not leaking."

@GlenH7 Oh ouch.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox yeah, he was horrific

Kit Z. Fox

Working with a good PM is soooo nice though.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox Sounds like a "The physical measurements show that your program is wrong. Go fix your effing program and leave me alone until then."

Kit Z. Fox

6:48 PM

@GlenH7 Actually it was a "The fines accrue beginning from the date we were notified, therefore you haven't notified us."

user41796

ROFL

Thomas Owens

French Toast Alert Level: GUARDED

user41796

That's hilarious. "Nope, didn't hear nothing. Clearly you're wrong."

Kit Z. Fox

To their credit, they used the time to get their ducks in a row so they could correct the problem as soon as possible.

user41796

Yep, pretty standard approach that way

Kit Z. Fox

6:50 PM

So about three weeks later it was "OK, you should run your test calculations again -- OMG! We've got a leaky tank! Let's fix it right away with this stuff we happen to have right here."

And thankfully it had only just begun leaking.

user41796

nice

Kit Z. Fox

Well. So the calculations showed.

It had probably been leaking for over a year. The tank manager had been estimating the fuel volumes.

user41796

"Shall we allocate those funds towards paying fines or keeping them in the pool for our annual bonus?"

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 This is a relatively small company. If they'd paid out like they should have, they would have gone out of business.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox While I don't underestimate the ability of a skilled person to estimate things like that it does beg disbelief

Kit Z. Fox

6:54 PM

There's a reason you're supposed to take actual measurements to the nearest 1/8". I doubt he could do that by eye.

Seeing as how the tank was buried.

user41796

A friend of mine is / was a general contractor. He could accurately mark a 2x4 to within a 1/4" without measuring

Kit Z. Fox

I'm pretty sure the guy didn't stick his head in the tank.

user41796

And if he did you didn't want to know about it?

Kit Z. Fox

And his estimates might have been dead on if the tank weren't leaking, but that's kind of exactly the point, innit?

user41796

careful, that's crazy talk

Kit Z. Fox

6:56 PM

I think he thought it was some stupid hassle to drop the stick in and measure.

We were lucky that it was a relatively small spill. Something like 1,000 gallons seepage or something.

user41796

expensive version of a total weed killer. :-)

Kit Z. Fox

haha yeah.

And I was glad that the company took it very seriously, despite their obfuscation efforts. They wanted to do the right thing and also not go out of business.

user41796

Actually, given how expensive roundup is. I should have said it was an inexpensive weed killer

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 what is a stoner for $300 Alex

Kit Z. Fox

rofl

user41796

6:59 PM

I thought the price was closer to $200/oz out your way

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