The Whiteboard

Jimmy Hoffa

2:15 PM

Happy Coffee Day

Kit Z. Fox

My friend the Nigerian prince just sent me some wedding pics -- holy glamour!

enderland

lol

Kit Z. Fox

Looks straight out of a magazine.

I bet it was an awesome wedding.

enderland

our wedding was ridiculously awesome and the entire cost was just over $10k (seriously we had a lot of people tell us it was the best wedding they ever went to haha)

Duga

You misinterpreted the purpose of this site. Here you can get help with specific programming issues when you are stuck. This is not a website where sad and bored programmers wait in line for people to dump their specs and wait for a working solution to magically appear. — GolezTrol 42 secs ago

Kit Z. Fox

2:23 PM

@enderland We had a great wedding too, about $5K, most of it for open bar and food. Friends said it was the best one of everyone's they had been to, but they would say that. I had a blast. I think others did as well.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MetaFight coming up with practical uses would probably be neat, but the purpose is to be a material to play with like those old stress balls, just something cheap to fiddle with. I may just go to their site and buy a few puttys for my kid to meddle with, looks like they have a far better durability than a lot of the cheap various gak junk things we get him which when left out always end up becoming rock hard or otherwise useless somehow

practical use: create a two-paned window and fill the middle with that stuff instead of argon or whatever they use. Bet it's more insulative. There. Also the gas filled ones are known to leak over time so they lose their insulative properties.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox AN OPEN BAR FOR $5K?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 get all engineery on us, heres the putty, figure out what kind of insulative properties it would have at what thickness. Too much space between the panes and filling it with that stuff would probably mean too much pressure against the panes because of the weight from the mass; would have to have them just the right distance so the weight of the putty wasn't an amount that compromised the pane's integrity

Thomas Owens

Some friends of mine wanted to have an open bar. It was too expensive.

Tell me your secrets/

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens And food.

Thomas Owens

2:31 PM

@KitZ.Fox The hell?

How?

Kit Z. Fox

I have friends.

enderland

we didn't have alcohol at our wedding, neither my wife or I really drink and... meh, if anyone there was pissed about that tough luck :P

Thomas Owens

Are your friends bakers, chefs, and brewmasters?

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Yes.

enderland

@ThomasOwens you need someone with a liquor license and someone willing to be the police person (well our venue required some security person if you had alcohol)

Kit Z. Fox

2:32 PM

I think we've covered the breadth of industry I've been in.

Thomas Owens

@enderland Most reception venues have a liquor license around here.

Kit Z. Fox

And making friends is one of my superpowers. That's how come I'm such a good BA.

enderland

@ThomasOwens yeah that's your problem, buying through the venue means you pay outrageous costs

Thomas Owens

There's a local brewery that holds receptions.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens We held the reception in our backyard.

Thomas Owens

2:33 PM

You can have the whole ceremony there, too.

@KitZ.Fox Oh, yeah. That gets much cheaper. You can buy a lot of food and alcohol for $5k.

If you have almost $0 venue expense.

enderland

@ThomasOwens our total catering bill for all non-cake food was $1850 after all fees (for 150 people). I think cake was about $200

Thomas Owens

@enderland Some venues require that you use their services, or at least an approved service.

Kit Z. Fox

Plus especially when you can buy direct from distributors and people bring kegs of their homebrew.

Thomas Owens

They'll have approved bartenders, caterers, and such.

enderland

@ThomasOwens those are the venues that cost you a fortune

Kit Z. Fox

2:34 PM

And bottles of their own brandy and stuff.

enderland

if you want an affordable wedding, most of those places are immediately out of the picture

Kit Z. Fox

We did cupcakes for about $30.

Thomas Owens

Step 1: Go to the local brewpubs more often. Step 2: Befriend the people who make the beer. Step 3: Obtain alcohol for parties.

Is that correct?

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah, that works.

And also homebrewers.

And also the chefs and staff at the restaurants.

And also the local farmers and growers.

And also have a house with 5 acres and a barn.

enderland

our cake was $175, for mostly sheetcake (and we paid 2x since we really wanted the almond flavored vanilla which they use in cupcakes and our parents insisted we had a nice little round cake to "cut")

Thomas Owens

2:36 PM

That last one is a problem in Boston.

Kit Z. Fox

But get married before you plant your orchard in the field.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox this is my dream!

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens I would imagine.

enderland

@ThomasOwens living in a big city also screws you in some sense for wedding costs

Kit Z. Fox

It was a really great wedding. Very country. A bounty from the ground to the table. Drinking, dancing, singing.

Jimmy Hoffa

2:38 PM

@enderland what in the actual fuck? A dry wedding? I lack comprehension of this in any meaningful way. Who the hell are these people you associate with that all not only went, but proclaimed enjoyment of, a dry wedding? Insanity. You're mormon? Highly religious in some way? This is the only explanation I'm imagining that makes sense.

Thomas Owens

@enderland But there are great venues in Boston. Like the aquarium or the library's gardens.

@JimmyHoffa I wasn't going to say anything, but this.

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe there were brownies?

Thomas Owens

You can get married in front of sea creatures. Like seals.

Kit Z. Fox

And penguins!

enderland

@JimmyHoffa my wife and I are both deeply religious and for us and nearly all our friends/family that's fine

Jimmy Hoffa

2:40 PM

@ThomasOwens I got married in front of bushes, a poorly aged hippy, and his stoned girlfriend

@enderland ah ok, that makes perfect sense then

@enderland Never knew! Interesting, you keep that well tucked away; good on ya.

enderland

@ThomasOwens I bet those venues cost as much as @KitZ.Fox's entire wedding :P

Thomas Owens

@enderland That's legit then.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa it's not really a subject that comes up, and online I'm less than willing to jump into it since the internet isn't really a place friendly to evangelical Christians in the slightest bit

@ThomasOwens you know a place is pricey when none of their website has ANY information about pricing :P

Thomas Owens

@enderland bpl.org/central/private_events_pricing.pdf

enderland

ah, I was looking at the aquarium

Thomas Owens

2:43 PM

In the spring and summer, a lot of weddings are in the courtyard. $2k for 2 hours, $500 for every extra hour.

enderland

yeah so those room rates. makes me cry. our venue, for a historic church and basically pre-decorated reception was only $1800 total and that included like 7 hours day of and an hour the night before :P

Thomas Owens

Plus setup fees and such.

You're looking at more than your wedding. For the venue.

enderland

We also got married in winter, I think we got a 10% discount for that? Plus a combo discount for renting the church and reception building

the church was also a super awesome 1850s themed church on a location that is maintained to be themed for the period

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland haha yeah, but to be fair in here that stuff has come up before and it's always been as dignified as everything else is here. Scotchily dignified :)

Honestly I sometimes think the more reasonable level-headed very religious folk should actually wear that on their arms a little more; so many of the folks who ever mention their <whatever group> are bothersome schmucks and they end up giving their group a terrible rep, which causes the well-reasoned members of <whatever group> to stay quiet and let their group be represented by loud mouths and irritants. This is true for many values of group {political, religious, professional, geographic}

enderland

you mean like westboro baptists? or Muslims who have the by far worse end of that problem :(

Westboro baptist "church" is like 40 people too, which is infuriating

Jimmy Hoffa

2:49 PM

@enderland exactly. One of the problems though is media, those 40 people get endless reams of it while thousands of evangelicals who speak out against them get near none I'm sure

enderland

@JimmyHoffa you mean donald trump? wait. :(

Jimmy Hoffa

But in every day interactions, not even bringing up the thoughts or beliefs or facts of your religious/political/professional/whatever group, just not hiding the fact that you're a member - over time can make people who respect you have a better perview of that group when you've never so much as spoken of it's meaning or intricacies to them

enderland

@ThomasOwens I imagine too if you had a wedding a few hours outside of Boston you could save a significant money

Thomas Owens

@enderland The problem then becomes transportation.

enderland

is it really that hard to get out of the Boston metro? maybe you guys are crazier than I thought :-)

Thomas Owens

2:51 PM

If people fly into Boston and need hotels, should they also be made to rent cars or pay for a taxi from the airport to a far out hotel?

Duga

I feel that this belongs more on Programmers — cat 15 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

I've had this experience personally with catholics; I've known multiple who've mentioned regarding some anecdote about growing up that they're catholic or whatever, but then they never ever say anything about their religion, and multiple of them I've known were just genuinely great people I knew for years: Result is with nearly no knowledge of christian faiths, it seems the catholic church might be alright.

enderland

@ThomasOwens I guess that depends on how many people would be flying in. I don't think anyone, save my grandparents (from florida, but they flew to my parents and drove with them anyways) flew to our wedding?

Thomas Owens

@enderland Depends on how you define Boston Metro. There's T-accessible Boston which is things serviced by the main subway and bus lines. Then there's "T-accessible Boston" which includes towns that have one or two bus lines between them and one of the outer spokes of the city, and depending on how you define "metro Boston", it could go all the way to the middle of New Hampshire and Rhode Island.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa A lot of people are very "culturally Christian" too. not as many are probably willing to go meet with their pastor and suggest ways to help improve the marriage ministry and pre-marriage class at their local church (my wife and I did this yesterday :P)

@ThomasOwens I'm... glad you (and apparently many many others) like big cities. hah. I couldn't take it!

17 mins ago, by Kit Z. Fox

And also have a house with 5 acres and a barn.

I want that. and if it's on a lake that'd be sweet, too

Kit Z. Fox

2:55 PM

@enderland Oh beautiful.

Jimmy Hoffa

Just by people who are decent respectable folk letting their in-groups be known they can raise the perspective from others of their group. And we're all members of one group or another, so recognizing each other's groups as not lecherous-caricatures is a worthy goal towards creating mutual respect in our society. Something we lack so much of these days.

enderland

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland I don't understand this statement? What does "culturally Christian" mean?

Thomas Owens

@enderland Boston is the least big city big city I've ever been to. Seattle is a close second. And I've been to New York, San Francisco, and Houston, and DC.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa generalizing horribly broadly, people who go to church a few times a year but would still self identify as Christian - but if most people looked at their life, what their time goes to, etc would have a hard time saying they are Christian

Thomas Owens

2:57 PM

And other smaller cities, too.

Kit Z. Fox

My brother got married in the middle of nowhere. They rented a bus for the guests.

Thomas Owens

Some times, those smaller cities feel more big city than Boston does.

enderland

I live in a town of 60,000 people who are mostly college students :-)

Thomas Owens

Greater Boston

Greater Boston is the area of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts surrounding the city of Boston, consisting most of the eastern third of Massachusetts, excluding the South Coast and Cape Cod. The area can be characterized as the metropolitan statistical area (MSA) or the combined statistical area (CSA), the latter which includes the metro areas of Manchester, New Hampshire; Providence, Rhode Island and Worcester, Massachusetts. By contrast, Metro Boston is usually reserved to signify the "inner core" surrounding the City of Boston, while "Greater Boston" usually at least overlaps the North and South...

If you're interested in reading on the different definitions of what Boston means.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland ah. Well, it's a group all the same and not necessarily a bad one. The details of the groups creed would be something you could perhaps identify far better than me, but if you recognize it as a group of some nature following such as: Believes in god, believes religion is good, believes Christianity is a good and venerable choice for said good, prioritizes non-religious endeavors above religious ones perhaps, something like this? Either way, it's a consistent group

Kit Z. Fox

3:02 PM

I would add 'reflexively falls back on "because the Bible said so" when confronted with a moral conflict.'

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland It's members attempt perhaps to proclaim membership in a different group which you feel to be a member of (more than "culturally Christian"), though they don't practice and participate in the same set of beliefs and practices as those in your group. Either way, all a bunch if in-groups and out-groups I suppose. Hell, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about considering my knowledge of religion

enderland

@JimmyHoffa this gets complicated - for example, Mormons self identify as "Christian" but their theology is... very, very different than all other Christian sects (most of which have fairly consistent "primary" beliefs and disagree on secondary issues, ie the fundamentals vs less-clear things)

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer is I believe evangelical? Or maybe baptist? I don't remember actually. Shrug.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa yeah, it gets complicated to sort through this. In my experience though people who are more "cultural christian" tend to not actually know much about what the Bible says or why they could/should believe in Christianity - just more a "well I was raised this way" type of thing

and full disclosure - for the first 20+ years of my life I was totally in that place too

Kit Z. Fox

So you chose evangelical after searching?

enderland

3:08 PM

@KitZ.Fox in a manner of speaking, yes (or perhaps God chose me? ;-)

Kit Z. Fox

That's very interesting. What was it that you identified with most? Do you recall a pivotal moment, or was it just something that felt right to you that you eventually noticed? Or do you not want to talk about it, which is totally OK if you don't.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Yeah, group encroachment is something people fear for good and bad reasons. Sometimes it's fear used as group-immunity to keep the boundaries of their group strong and well defended because other groups can proclaim membership to them and then incite hatred against them (see: Jihadist Muslims), the fear of group encroachment isn't unfounded. Sometimes it's because a group may take an aggressive approach to it's defense and creating fear can cause it's members to pre-empt others

enderland

@JimmyHoffa so the first time I read this I read it as "is 'I believe' evanegelical? or maybe baptist?" and missed the ping :P

@KitZ.Fox that's a good - and complicated - question

one thing that has, for all of my life, been something I've strongly believed is that something else other than 'just matter' exists - prior to even considering god/gods, just the idea that there are things that are Right vs Wrong and not just societal constructs, etc

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland haha no, I know approx. zilch of Christianity. My knowledge of christianity is summed up as I mentioned above: I knew some people who were catholic who were extremely nice and friendly. Oh and one time when I was in Chicago over Ash (friday? wednesday?) I noticed a bunch of people walking around with black marks on their foreheads and found the whole thing very strange and had no idea why it happened until I asked somebody about it. Never saw it before growing up in Denver.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa Wednesday.

enderland

3:14 PM

without these things, or some level of faith that there is meaning to the world it is completely logical and rational to be nilhilstic and to take it to the extreme that either 1) everything is completely meaningless or 2) put faith in your ability to create meaning. To me #1 is unacceptable given prior statement, and #2 is intellectually dishonest

(this is all background information to the question you asked, but important)

in college, a mentor figure basically shared a more cohesive view of "The Gospel" with me (which is Christian-ese for understanding that God is perfect, and due to our imperfection we cannot be in harmony with him, and are doomed to hell eternally as a result - but because of Jesus we can be)

the combination of historical reasons for believing in Christianity and the significant change in people's lives I've observed (including myself, now) over the years plus a more clear explanation to me just... made sense

one lament I have about modern Christianity is that most Christians cannot give any answer to "why do you believe?" that is even remotely non-cringeworthy, which is annoying since there are so many!

@JimmyHoffa well, to me it's kind of like someone who writes code a few times a year calling themself a programmer/developer. Technically it might be true, but in a practical sense it's not super useful to describe yourself that way

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland That's a lot to think about. I agree with your lament; people who believe without thinking bother me.

I'm thinking about your conclusion that faith in your ability to create meaning is intellectually dishonest.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox the net effect is that socially it's "understood" that Christians just have some sort of totally misguided blind faith, without any even plausible explanation let along meaningful explanation

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland Right. That's why I ask the question. Most answers are not satisfying, but some are and that is of interest to me in gaining an understanding of who people are at their core.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox secular humanism is unbelievably hypocritical in this regard to me, the only way the "we need to improve our morality! people are wrong for believing in X!" attitude makes any sense is if there is an absolute morality of some sort that is the frame of comparison, because if morality is in fact determined societally then there is nothing wrong with a culture say killing random people for no reason - if the culture has accepted this, who are we to disagree?

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland yeah, but sure are a lot of people who do it aren't there? I can dislike their approach to the work, but my points above were about mutual respect, not mutual agreement. We'll never have the ladder, but I don't necessarily hold ill will towards the people who are members of the in-group claims-to-know-things-because-they-heard-about-them-and-think-theyre-interesting

Kit Z. Fox

3:21 PM

I don't think the morality of not murdering people is ... I don't think it works like that.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox without something (a higher power isn't even required, just some sort of "absolute" moral) to compare it to though, there's really no way we can say anything like "murdering people is always wrong"

Kit Z. Fox

But I've been listening to Crime and Punishment on my commute, and I'm somewhat amoral or maybe differently moraled than most people I know, so.

I try not to think about my morals too much. I prefer to try to understand other people's instead.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa one thing that Christians tend really well is not being humble, in the sense of accepting that all are wrong in God's sight without Jesus - including every person in every church. When your entire life is lived from the perspective that you are owed nothing and deserve nothing it's a lot more "convincing" I guess than acting entitled/superior. I could get derailed on this subject a while haha

@KitZ.Fox realistically life is far easier if you don't care about having a cohesive moral system, too ;-)

ignorance is definitely bliss when it comes to... all of these things (morals, religion, etc)

sometimes I long for that bliss. lol

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey

@RobertHarvey I wholeheartedly disagree. When I am making REST requests of FaceBook or TwitBook or GoogleBookSpace to retrieve a list of users - they come back in a format relevant to their API. My repo's job is to manage the HttpClients connection to those services, credentials/auth with them like a SQL connection, and translate those types into ones that make sense in my applications domain just like a repo over SQL translates a group of columns and records into domain models. — Jimmy Hoffa 2 mins ago

Robert Harvey

Yeah, saw it. See my reply.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:30 PM

@RobertHarvey I think you're confusing what types of REST requests I'm talking about. I'm not talking about my client to my service, I mean when my service needs 3rd party data: It can use ADO.NET to get that data from a SQL server, it can use HttpClient to get that data from a web server, it can use StreamReader to get that data from a flat file, it can use MemcachedClient to get that data from a memcached server. When my service needs data from somewhere else, it should have a repo that manages those data providers so the rest of the service can only be concerned with domain models. — Jimmy Hoffa 54 secs ago

I have done this multiple times so it's something I've had to deal with. Repo really is the best place to put HttpClient management.

Robert Harvey

It is fortunate that you apparently work somewhere where architectural "guidelines" are not nearly as rigid as they are in most places.

Jimmy Hoffa

The thing is, managing and translating requests/responses from 3rd party REST services (or SOAP services, or SQL services, or flat files) really is a decent amount of work. Having all of that management of that services access in a single repository is much nicer than having it in some service layer where you can now no longer change your data provider for that data easily.

@RobertHarvey ?? I think you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about?

I mean, there's literally no difference between a REST request and a SQL server request other than port and protocol.

Robert Harvey

Ah, I see what you're saying. Stringly-typed communication.

Jimmy Hoffa

why would you not manage data requests of a REST service in the same way you manage data requests of a SQL service?

Robert Harvey

Well, the protocol is different, for one thing.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:34 PM

@RobertHarvey so is Oracle vs MS SQL but you still manage both of those the same

what if you held your data in a flat file, would you not write a repo for managing the data access to that flat file?

Robert Harvey

Are you still talking about backend communication, or frontend? Because it seems pretty clear to me that your remote client is not going to be talking directly to a repo object.

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland It's not that I don't care about it. It's just that I don't externalize it. That makes it harder when I'm trying to teach compassion and generosity to my children.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey what? I don't really understand what you mean here

Robert Harvey

iPhone <--> REST Endpoint (some HTTP-capable thing) <--> Repo, or whatever you want to call it.

Jimmy Hoffa

It's common for people to not think of REST services as "data" services, and so they classify and want to manage them differently than SQL services, but that's just very often wrong, and it causes all the same problems you get if you put ADO.NET calls all over your stack instead of in a repo. Because this is a common mistake people make, I've been trying to make it more well known and recognized for people whenever I see it to get them to think of REST service identically to SQL service

you manage and deal with a REST service in precisely the same way you manage and deal with a SQL service

Robert Harvey

3:39 PM

So everything is a repo.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey no, just data services are repos

Robert Harvey

What is not a repo?

Jimmy Hoffa

processing services

data in->altered data out

Robert Harvey

So your REST endpoint is a repo?

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey what? no

a repo accesses it

Robert Harvey

3:40 PM

That's what I've been saying all along.

3 mins ago, by Robert Harvey

iPhone <--> REST Endpoint (some HTTP-capable thing) <--> Repo, or whatever you want to call it.

Jimmy Hoffa

my REST endpoint is a data persistence layer. HttpClient is a data provider. Anyone accessing my REST endpoint should write a data repository to access the HttpClient data provider to interact with my data persistence layer.

Robert Harvey

Naturally.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey Explain to me at what point you should manage a System.Data.SqlClient.Connection differently than you manage a System.Web.HttpClient

Robert Harvey

Though to be fair, most REST endpoints don't expose CRUD directly, nowadays. They expose business activities.

Jimmy Hoffa

they both should belong in a repo is my point. That way none of the rest of your code has to have concerns with those data providers and their intricacies

Robert Harvey

3:42 PM

There has to be some abstraction layer, yes.

I still think you may be playing loose and fast with the term "repo" though.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey why? If it's data in a 3rd party service, I should use a repo to abstract it away from me and manage that data's provider concerns.

Robert Harvey

Naturally.

Jimmy Hoffa

I think we're just talking across each other. It sounds like you agree with me but perhaps didn't understand what I was saying regarding communication from a service to another service - I wasn't speaking about communication from a client to a service. (though, in my web UIs I typically create a single module in the client that handles all of the REST requests of my service that the rest of my web UI utilizes for making those requests)

Robert Harvey

@enderland My wife and I had an interesting conversation about this the other day. I suggested to her that we have parts of our brain that give us unconscious guidance, and that some folks anthropomorphize those parts of their brains.

But that a "higher power" is not actually required to obtain such guidance.

Kit Z. Fox

@RobertHarvey Amygdala + hippocampus.

Robert Harvey

3:49 PM

I was thinking more in terms of "whole brain insight" or "creative consciousness." We have a nervous system in our abdomen. It's where "gut feelings" come from.

None of this requires something outside of ourselves. But this part of us is foreign to most people. It starts in school when we're told to "stop daydreaming." By the time we're grown up and acclimated to modern society's demands, most of us have lost conscious control over these abilities.

MetaFight

2

Q: Enterprise App Architecture - quick analysis

I've designed an architecture as below for a ground-up modern enterprise cloud app we're starting on right away. It will start out simple with 2 or 3 developers, and then grow over the next few years with new functionality, possibly to dozens of tables and millions of records and up to 6 or 7 de...

Robert Harvey

To put it another way, we all have the ability to talk to "God" and receive guidance. We just don't use it, most of the time. When we do, we use it crudely. In essence, we're out of practice.

MetaFight

^^^ seems to indicate you guys agree with my views on data access on the server side

It's always nice to find out you're not alone :)

wait, is that what you guys were talking about already?

Robert Harvey

Most people need a better repo. :P

Kit Z. Fox

I just spilled scalding hot coffee down my arm.

Literally scalded.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:55 PM

@MetaFight yes, we were talking about REST and repos etc from that Q there.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox ouchy. Sorry to hear it

user41796

@JimmyHoffa - RE: putty as insulation - tl;dr bad idea

user41796

putty has a k value of ~2
air has a k value of 0.02
smaller is better

MetaFight

I'm starting to itch. I feel like I'm developing a pretty solid understanding of enterprise application architecture, but I don't have any way of applying it. I... almost want to start looking for a job.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec did you ever finish up that midi file function-caller thing to feed me a list of midi file notes with timestamps and periods so I could feed them to setTimeout functions to play the midi in plink?

@GlenH7 yeah, that just means I get to choose 2 at a time from a set of N to me...

I guess you're saying, putty is rather thermally conductive?

Kit Z. Fox

3:57 PM

@GlenH7 Wow, really? Not what I would have figured.

user41796

all materials have a property called "thermal conductivity" and when looking at materials for insulation, lower is better

user41796

@KitZ.Fox took a bit of digging

Kit Z. Fox

I guess that kind of makes sense because it is denser.

MetaFight

@GlenH7 I will insulate my next home with thermos mugs.

Kit Z. Fox

And I think you want less desnse for better insulation generally, right?

Dead air or whatever.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:58 PM

@GlenH7 so what's the thermal conductivity of copper?

Kit Z. Fox

So the molecules don't bump into each other and get excited.

user41796

It's all about energy transfer - the more molecules that are there, the easier it is to transfer energy across a given plane

Jimmy Hoffa

and I guess I should have figured this out with that bathtub thing making the guy cold

user41796

gasses naturally have a lot fewer molecules than a solid, so gasses naturally have a much better k value for insulation purposes

MetaFight

@JimmyHoffa nah, that's because he shaved almost all his hair off.

user41796

3:59 PM

Ideal insulator would be a perfect vacuum

user41796

@JimmyHoffa That hints at it, yes. Because there is direct contact with the putty at room temperature (or worse) his body more rapidly gave off heat to the putty

MetaFight

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Do you agree with the guy's use of a repo in his third diagram?

MetaFight

I need to get Thermos to sponsor my build.

@RobertHarvey So, the thirds diagram uses 3 data access technologies. EF7 for non-performance-optimize (but SDLC-optimized) access, and two others for Read and Write optimized access. I've always wanted to aim for this in my system designs but have receive a lot of resistance from other devs. Have you ever seen this applied in real life?

user41796

@MetaFight I forget the brand name, but I saw a whole bunch of vacuum based insulating coozie type things during the holidays this year

Jimmy Hoffa

4:04 PM

@RobertHarvey absolutely. He doesn't have any non-SQL options for data so my point isn't in the diagram, but it's fine as is.

Robert Harvey

@MetaFight Never in a diagram. Always in real life.

MetaFight

@RobertHarvey wait, do you mean you have seen something like that applied in a real life system before?

I've always argued that we should start with EF, which is broad and general, and switch to more performance optimized technologies as needed. So far, I've only encountered that situation once. Not surprisingly, EF struggles with bulk import of data. ADO.Net with a storedProc handles that just fine.

Robert Harvey

Where I currently work, we're building repos by hand. They've used nHibernate and EF before, but the director has decided that EF is too big of a dependency (he has a point)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MetaFight At my last job we used LINQ2SQL for our data access but then used ADO.NET in sporadic spots here and there where it made sense. All of that was done by Repos so it wasn't an issue

Robert Harvey

Fortunately, that work (mostly) only has to be done once.

So everything is bare SQL statements, executed by a method that looks like this:

Jimmy Hoffa

4:09 PM

He's missing multiple relevant points in his architecture though regarding things he may not have, but may come up later. 3rd party web services for instance - he may want to get a users facebook data later on, or weather data or something - he should have it in the diagram just so when it comes up it's recognized that a repo should abstract away that access.

MetaFight

@JimmyHoffa My last work place used linq2sql. If I remember correctly there's a MASSIVE bug in the designer which makes it easy to accidentally wipe your production data... I can't remember exactly what that was though. It might have been related to the concurrency options it offered.

Robert Harvey

var result = ExecuteStatement<List<ReturnType>>(SQlStatement, parameters);

Jimmy Hoffa

@MetaFight there's multiple massive bugs in the designer - we hand-spun all of it after a while. We also used it direct to sprocs and not tables almost always.

Robert Harvey

All of the SQL statements are kept in a table. So now it becomes

MetaFight

@RobertHarvey That looks like for every new access you have to design and develop your own SQL... which devs are surprisingly bad at. That's why I like EF. It hides that from you.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:11 PM

We would use a dev server, open the designer, pull the sproc into the designer, then cut the xml from the dbml and the designer code etc and hand massage it into our actual codebases dbml's and designers

it sounds nasty but after a while it was still easier than hand spinning the ADO.NET SQL parameters and iterating data readers and all that code.

Robert Harvey

@MetaFight We're a SQL shop. Writing SQL statements is one of our core competencies.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey also, he's missing an important point about the fact that - a service is likely going to do more than just data access. He should have a separate vertical for processing services. One of the biggest problems people have from architectures is when they don't plan for things they don't need, then when they need them- the bootz on the ground actually writing code look at what's available and decide: We have these sets of buckets for code, so I'll put this in one of the ones we have

Robert Harvey

They write these things all day long.

@JimmyHoffa That's kinda the point I was trying to make.

Jimmy Hoffa

it's important for the architecture to layout locations for code that may not actually be written yet so that when it comes up - people don't end up putting logical processing in their repos because that's the only place they have to put code.

MetaFight

it does sound nasty :) It reminds me of when my team used to generate CRUD storedProcs for each entity we had. Due to bugs in our generator we had 2 sets of CRUD storedProcs for each entity, and due to business rules being in the DB about 80% of the CRUD SPs never got used.

@RobertHarvey that makes sense, then.

Robert Harvey

4:17 PM

@MetaFight It's not without its problems. Some things they do they really need a UI for instead of writing scripts.

But we're a very small shop.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey honestly I don't understand the points you were trying to make in comments one bit. It sounds like you were suggesting that if you want to get weather data from weather.google.com, your MVC WebApi Controller should just directly create an HttpClient and make a request of weather.google.com right in the Controller Action with no abstraction at all

I think you weren't explaining whatever point you were trying to make very well? Also perhaps I wasn't. I still don't know where you were trying to go with your line of argument heh

MetaFight

Anyway, I'm off to socialize with a completely different kind of nerd. It's the hackspace's social night tonight. And then, maybe some jazz at the jazz club (yet another kind of nerdiness)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MetaFight sounds nice, I could go for a night of Jazz..

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa No, you would create a repository for that. But I still think there's room for a Service Layer/Gateway in there somewhere, unless your intention is CRUD everywhere, all the time.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I didn't say I wouldn't have a service layer, I said it's the repo's job to access data. You arguing against this sounds like you think the service should do it .. see what I mean? I never mentioned a service layer anywhere, didn't say you should or shouldn't have one. It's orthogonal to my point: Data providers should be managed in a repo

Robert Harvey

4:22 PM

Alright, let me see if I understand you correctly.

iPhone <--> REPO <--> REST endpoint (I call this a "Gateway") <--> REPO <--> Database

Or, better:

iPhone <--> REPO <--> REST endpoint (I call this a "Gateway") <--> Service Layer <--> REPO <--> Database

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey You're adding layers I never even talked about

Robert Harvey

Ah, I see.

Jimmy Hoffa

I was making zero points about anything but repos

Robert Harvey

Well, the guy was talking about his entire architecture, not just one small part of it.

Jimmy Hoffa

you have data? Abstract it's Data Provider with a repo. That's the whole crux of my point

Robert Harvey

4:24 PM

Fine.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey yeah I know, I was only critiqueing his one small part though because originally he had no repo in front of his ADO.NET

Ixrec

// TODO: implement this comment

Robert Harvey

In other news...

Perhaps you misunderstood me. You don't ask DDD where your folders go. You learn DDD on its own terms, use it to design your software, and then put your folders where it makes sense. — Robert Harvey 5 mins ago

Ixrec

I'm not sure why I wrote that just now but I did

Jimmy Hoffa

29 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec did you ever finish up that midi file function-caller thing to feed me a list of midi file notes with timestamps and periods so I could feed them to setTimeout functions to play the midi in plink?

I'm still waiting

:|

Ixrec

4:26 PM

I've forgotten whatever injoke that is so I didn't know what to respond with

Jimmy Hoffa

it's not an injoke

I want you to write some JavaScript for me, because.. if you don't, I'll have to do it

15 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec you should be awesome and figure out how to take this and given a new MIDIFile from it, set intervals for calling a function with a number correlating to 0.0-1.0 on the scale where the midi file is for each note in the file with a length parameter

Ixrec

that'd require a lot of "normal web" knowledge that I do not possess

Jimmy Hoffa

15 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

...because if you don't, I'm going to have to. Meh.

Ixrec

wow, I do not remember that happening in that conversation at all

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec what? None at all. Given a JavaScript ArrayBuffer you can new MIDIFile(buffer) and then pull information out of it

Ixrec

4:27 PM

I remember the 3e0 brainteaser around it

@JimmyHoffa I've never used an ArrayBuffer

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec that's ok, here:

$('#input-area').prepend('<input type="file" id="someFile" />'); $('#someFile').change(function() { var f = document.getElementById('someFile').files[0]; var fr = new FileReader(); fr.onload = function(d) { window.SomeBuff = d.target.result }; fr.readAsArrayBuffer(f); })

pop that into your chrome console and you'll get a little file selector that'll give you an ArrayBuffer for the chosen file at window.SomeBuff when you choose a file with it

user41796

-1 for poor formatting

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec now you have an ArrayBuffer, paste in the MIDIFile dist from here and select a midifile and you have a midifile array buffer to new MIDIFile(window.SomeBuff) with and start writing the JavaScript I requested

yep. Because that's how this works. The Whiteboard is a code writing service right?

Ixrec

I do have actual work I'm supposed to be doing right now lol

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec sounds lame.

Ixrec

4:40 PM

I'm enjoying it

Jimmy Hoffa

You would.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa you're always hating on The Man. Maybe some of us like being subservient.

Kit Z. Fox

obsequious.

Ixrec

Jan 11 at 19:43, by Ixrec

they have earned my loyalty

Kit Z. Fox

It's a good word. People should use it more.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:43 PM

@GlenH7 you're only saying that because you haven't had your daily tot yet.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox apparently I resemble that remark. ;-)

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Missing something, that's for sure

Kit Z. Fox

Hmm. Tater tots sound pretty tasty right now.

user41796

They do, this is true

Thomas Owens

There is so much blue in here.

user41796

4:45 PM

We like it that way

Ixrec

for the record, I am not going to become blue

Kit Z. Fox

What!? Ridiculous.

user41796

Although it does render moot some of our threats that we banter about

user41796

@Ixrec Not going to run for SFF?

Ixrec

nah, enough blatantly more qualified people have nominated themselves now

Jimmy Hoffa

4:47 PM

@Ixrec for the record, nobody in their right mind would make me blue. I can almost ponder trying to become blue just to thumb my nose some more (it is my favorite past time after all)

@Ixrec there's no P.SE election coming up is there?

I can't imagine P.SE getting a new mod just about ever

user41796

Unlikely unless one of ours is stepping down

Ixrec

we never have any mod drama

user41796

Or if the cabal completely disappears

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec our mod spots have all been created by site growth. I don't see this changing.

Ixrec

appareently our mods are deliberately passive anyway so it wouldn't really do much to elect more

Kit Z. Fox

4:49 PM

You haven't had mod drama? I don't believe that.

Ixrec

I can't think of any

user41796

Nothing recently, tbh

user41796

Progs is pretty low key in that regards

Ixrec

the only thing that comes to mind is every so often we get the WHY U CLOSE MY QUESTION guy, but whether he happens to a high-rep user or a mod is just random

user15026

Yeah, it's been a good long forever since you lot have had any real drama worth remembering.

user41796

4:51 PM

We have an ~~overly vicious cabal~~ active group of community moderators that keeps most things tidy. Comment clean up is likely the majority of Progs flags.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 because it's just fun causing comment flagpocalypse for the mods who get no mod points for handling them. Plus a post with 18 comments could just be flagged at the question, but 18 comment flags is just more fun!

Ixrec

just the perpetual simmering angst of being on a site that the rest of the network sees as confusing or draconian because more than half our questions are off-topic or crap

user41796

And several of our mods are mods on other sites, so that speaks to the flag volume here

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa is there such a thing as "mod points"?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec something of the nature was mentioned at one point as to handling flags

user41796

4:53 PM

@JimmyHoffa I actually read all of the comments and try to preserve the useful ones. Can be hard when there's a 1/2 garbage 1/2 useful comment that others provide constructive comments to

user41796

Arguably, I could flag and ask for an edit, but I really don't like asking for a comment edit like that

user41796

@Ixrec mods are tracked for contributions made to the site, including handling flags

user15026

Yeah, it's more stats tracking than points though. :)

Kit Z. Fox

You haven't had commentgate?

Jimmy Hoffa

@AshleyNunn but you get none for comment flags I was told! Which makes causing mods to handle comment flags doubly entertaining!

Ixrec

4:55 PM

@KitZ.Fox is that a thing that happened?

Kit Z. Fox

The endless cycle of y u delete my vry valuable commentz!?

user41796

@KitZ.Fox here on Progs? We routinely flag garbage comments. For a while, we used Undo's tool to check for garbage comments and cleared a lot of those out

Kit Z. Fox

@Ixrec Holy shit, yes. Like every six weeks or so.

Ixrec

oh, no, no one ever does that on this site

we only get question closure rage

user41796

> As a mod, I want to be able to quickly shut down those lines of whinging so that I can quickly go back to enjoying my day.

Kit Z. Fox

4:56 PM

And it's always way more energy and drama than is warranted. And always ends up with someone screaming mod abuse and you don't do it right and fascist! and stuff.

Ixrec

this is the most recent one that hit meta, though we've had worse

user41796

The other mods on Engineering tease me about my constantly reminding people that comments are second class citizens in the SE world and subject to deletion at any point as necessary

user41796

@Ixrec That one is downright benign

Ixrec

indeed, it's been very quiet lately

Jimmy Hoffa

@Yannis am I wrong in thinking this should be closed? I'm the only person who CV'd so I'm not sure. I'm just seeing it as far more discussion and far less Q&A:

2

Q: Enterprise App Architecture - quick analysis

I've designed an architecture as below for a ground-up modern enterprise cloud app we're starting on right away. It will start out simple with 2 or 3 developers, and then grow over the next few years with new functionality, possibly to dozens of tables and millions of records and up to 6 or 7 de...

c# mvc entity-framework asp.net-mvc-web-api angular

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