The Whiteboard

8:00 PM

@Ampt Well, in order for the devs to not be bothered, then the business must not talk to them unless the devs initiate the communication. I'm sure you're just misunderstanding because it's so obviously how the real world works.

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox oh of course. What was I thinking. I'm meerly a stupid low-browed dev. What was I thinking

please, educate me, Mr. Business

Kit Z. Fox

:D We're joking around, right?

Ampt

I haven't said the safe word yet, damnit!

(It's Waterfall, BTW)

Kit Z. Fox

Oop. back into snark role-play

@Ampt I thought it was tacopants.

I contribute value. sulks

The devs love me.

Well, my requirements. And my testing, when I had to do that because QA was so bad.

Ampt

does JS support negative indicies?

MetaFight

8:04 PM

I think there's something fundamentally broken about the Dev + BA + QA arrangement. I get the impression Devs with people skills make QAs and BAs nervous. I hope that I'm wrong, but I've never seen a QA person doing something that a Dev couldn't do (though, admittedly, I've never seen good QA). BA is a harder beast, but I think when Devs are allowed to speak with the users AND get results that gets stressful for BAs.

office politics :(

Ixrec

@Ampt it does...but not the way you'd like it to

Kit Z. Fox

It's that we need one person talking to the business or else the whole thing gets messy quickly. Also the devs don't like talking to people.

MetaFight

Of course, a dev doing Dev + QA + BA isn't going to be happy.

Kit Z. Fox

And personally, I don't want our devs worrying about stuff like schedule and scope.

Ixrec

> var a = [1,2,3];
> a[-1] = 42
> a
[1, 2, 3]
> a[-1]
42

MetaFight

8:05 PM

@KitZ.Fox that's not always true. I like talking to people after 11am or 3 cups of coffee (whichever comes last).

Ampt

@Ixrec no?

MetaFight

@KitZ.Fox schedules = PM stuff. Scope is a teamwide concern.

Ampt

@Ixrec what in...

surely you jest

MetaFight

> surely you JS

fixed that for you.

Ampt

nah, it works fine for string.slice()

Ixrec

8:06 PM

@Ampt a Javascript array is just another object, i.e. a map from strings to values, so what's really happening is [1, 2, 3] is a map from '0' to 1, '1' to 2, and '2' to 3, and then later I add '-1' to 42

Kit Z. Fox

@MetaFight Yes and no. I want them to focus on writing good code, on the task at hand. Scope control is a team concern, but one that they shouldn't have to think about bringing to the table. That is, devs shouldn't be handling incoming change requests.

imo

Ixrec

the biggest difference is that arrays have a super magical "length" property which returns the largest numeric key with a value plus 1 (or something like that, it's weird, I've probably forgotten ugly details)

MetaFight

@KitZ.Fox you're right, but that's handled by the process, not by a person.

Ivan

for (var i; i<array.length;i++){
        if(array[i] === true || typeof array[i]=== "object"){


            newArr = array[true];
        }

how to assign objects to the new array?

:((

Ampt

Kit Z. Fox

8:09 PM

rofl

MetaFight

you're wearing a tie! WTF?

Kit Z. Fox

@Ivan Do you know how to insert objects into an array?

Ixrec

@Ivan same way you assign stuff to any array: array[index] = value;

I think you need to go read your textbook/tutorial's chapter on arrays, this is the sort of stuff they cover in the first five pages

Ivan

yeah, ofc

I need to assign them without the [index]

Ixrec

what would that mean?

Ivan

8:12 PM

newArr = push(arr[i])

Ixrec

unless you're doing the kind of wackiness I was describing to Ampt where you use non-numeric array keys for no reason, which no one ever does in practice

Ivan

or sth like that

Ixrec

you mean you want to add a new element at the end of the array?

Ivan

yeah

Ixrec

arrays do have a push method

Ivan

8:13 PM

the newArr is empty

Ixrec

and they have a length, so you can just compute the index and assign to it normally even without push

Ivan

and I want to add the objects from the array to newArr

user41796

var newArr = [];
newArr.push(someVal);

user41796

that doesn't work?

Ixrec

equivalently, newArray[newArray.length - 1] = someVal;

Ivan

8:15 PM

it works, but only for the last object in the array

probably, I have to put it in for loop or for in one?

Ixrec

...both of those methods work for any number of objects you want to add

user41796

I'm voting to close as unclear

Ixrec

@GlenH7 yeah, that is why I keep responding with questions instead of code snippets

user55340

@Ixrec SFF only needs 300 rep to nominate for mod... go for it. ;-)

Ixrec

lol no way

Ivan

8:16 PM

actually, it works in for in loop

user41796

@MichaelT Who has an election now?

user55340

@GlenH7 Science Fiction & Fantasy...

user114359

0

Q: Cannot search network for files by name only from the start menu

I have several computers networked together (Windows 10 and Linux with Samba) all on the same home network and workgroup behind the typical cable router with NAT. In Windows 7, I was able to press ctrl+esc and type the name of a file to open it regardless of whether the file was on a local hard ...

user41796

@MichaelT Our chat room could always use more blue...

user55340

@GlenH7 the question would be partly "do you want to be responsible for Mos Eisley?"

user41796

8:21 PM

Can I shut it down?

Ixrec

you should post that on the meta Q about questions for candidates

user41796

Oh wait, I could technically already do that

user41796

And then lose my diamond

Ixrec

though Mos Eisley has been utterly unproblematic for the last few months after the Shoghammering so I doubt it'd actually get any interesting answers

Kit Z. Fox

It's nice when it is quiet.

user55340

8:23 PM

Run a happy noob campaign with the promise of shutting everything down.

Kit Z. Fox

Chat kind of blew up there for a while.

user41796

@Ixrec Was anyone suspending out of that affair? And if so, has their suspension completed? If not, that would explain some of the quietness.

Ixrec

@GlenH7 three people, and their suspensions end in a little over a month

user41796

So.... my $1 bet is that noise levels will increase in a little over a month

Ixrec

I am quite certain that is one of the biggest reasons it's been uneventful

but there's been a "room culture" change too so I'm fairly sure we can survive their return anyway

user55340

8:25 PM

Interesting that the election will take place entirely before those are complete.

Ixrec

and I think one of them decided to take some time off from the site in general pretty recently

user41796

I have never been a regular of that room, so I can't speak to the room's culture. But good to hear that you think it's changed up

Kit Z. Fox

Probably a good plan.

Ixrec

amusingly, one of the three has already made a comment about nominating himself "just for the sheer joy of seeing what excuse the CM's come up with to exclude me"

user41796

@Ixrec That's assuming the community would elect them.

Ixrec

8:26 PM

@GlenH7 well, that user got elected once...

user114359

If you guys elect me as Programmers mod next time around, I promise free coffee and free whiskey for everyone!

5

user41796

That's assuming the software would allow votes for that user to be actually registered.

user41796

@Snowman We demand delivery in advance

user55340

Needs 300 rep. If you are suspended from the site, you've got 1 rep.

user41796

@MichaelT Were they suspended from their main as well, or just chat?

Ixrec

8:27 PM

just chat

user55340

@GlenH7 I don't follow SFF drama enough.

Ixrec

they continued answering questions with reckless abandon

user41796

@MichaelT same

user55340

Ahh, well then would just have a fun time with the election chat room.

user41796

Y U NO SHOW IN CHAT?!

Kit Z. Fox

8:28 PM

@Ixrec All the more likely they wouldn't get elected again.

Ixrec

indeed

Ivan

I did my job! :DDD

I am so happyyyy

Kit Z. Fox

Of course, then it would be some conspiracy, rather than that the community was actually pissed off.

user41796

Mods aren't actually mods until they complete some agreements. And if someone had already been removed as a mod, that may invalidate their ability to complete those agreements

Kit Z. Fox

@Ivan Congrats.

Ivan

8:30 PM

:))

first filtered all objects out of the array

and after that, deleted the array in the array

so only obj left

MetaFight

Any arcade cabinet enthusiasts here?

Thomas Owens

If you have 8 different pieces of MIT licensed code by different people in your application, do you need 8 copies of the MIT license with a different copyright line or can you put all 8 lines in one copyright file?

user114359

@MetaFight no, but I have friends who are.

user41796

@MetaFight I'm not at the enthusiast level, no.

user41796

@ThomasOwens 8 lines, one file

Thomas Owens

8:39 PM

@GlenH7 That's what I thought. And you need 0 in-source attribution, correct?

Since it's permissive and you can relicense, it inherits from the rest of the project.

user41796

@ThomasOwens I believe that's correct

Thomas Owens

Could you weigh in here, @GlenH7?

user55340

@ThomasOwens glance at the 'legal' bit on your smart phone

psr

@Ivan You might want to glance over your requirements one more time.

user41796

@ThomasOwens I want to say the Android SDK handles it that way, but I can't find proof of that

Thomas Owens

8:44 PM

It looks like Android may include a license file for every owner. Don't know if you have to or not.

user55340

Thats "license per project" - though one might be able to claim "Stack Overflow" as one project.

user41796

It's probably worth mentioning that the MIT requirement for attribution isn't for bragging rights but rather for CYA

Thomas Owens

Yeah. The license page on my phone is...not intuitively laid out.

@GlenH7 How so?

user41796

The big part of the MIT license is a disclaimer of warranty

user41796

You need to know who is making that disclaimer

Thomas Owens

8:47 PM

BSD and Apache have the same thing.

user55340

You still see more than one apache license mention in that legal page.

user41796

Bob writes code, release under MIT. Sue takes Bob's code, modifies, re-releases with a new license as just hers without mentioning Bob. John gets Sue's code, it fails miserably. John discovers Bob wrote some of the code, John tries to sue Bob.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Yeah. I see many, many copies of the same license.

user41796

MIT attribution prevents John from suing Bob

Thomas Owens

Not sure if that's required or not, though.

user55340

8:48 PM

Could well be Google (and Apple) being ultra CYA.

user41796

They've got OSI's ear. You had the best suggestion with contacting them.

Thomas Owens

But I think this mucking around with attribution is because someone didn't get how attribution needed to work.

user41796

@MichaelT Especially since they know their code will be rebundled

user41796

non-lawyers arguing about things that lawyers ought to know / be able to determine seems like a bit of a waste of time.

user41796

Granted, someone on the interwebs is wrong, but there's a productive way to solve the question.

user41796

8:51 PM

And surely they (SE) went back to OSI after the first round flopped

Thomas Owens

I do hope they go with Apache or BSD 3-clause.

> Neither the name of the copyright holder nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.

user41796

Or maybe they really think the response was "overwhelmingly positive"

user41796

I dunno

Ixrec

I really hope they don't actually think that

user41796

Apache is probably the better route

Ixrec

8:52 PM

I just can't believe they'd be that stupid

user41796

> Thank you for your candidness, patience and feedback. We're going to delay the implementation for now - we'll be back soon to open some more discussions.

user41796

Apparently the memo got delivered

Thomas Owens

It did.

How are people up voting anything that says the license doesn't need to change?

user55340

The only thing with Apache is the "I don't know what happens if I answer a question and implemented a patented algorithm"

user55340

@ThomasOwens remember that for many, up vote == like.

Thomas Owens

8:56 PM

@MichaelT I'm pretty sure you get sued for patent infringement and nothing else. You can't provide something to someone else that you don't have yourself.

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens presumably because the existing proposal has some very huge problems

user55340

Want to go dig through the perlin noise questions?

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec No, I mean in other places.

Ixrec

other places?

Thomas Owens

Here's an example of an up voted answer advocating no change:

1

A: Is a license change necessary?

No, it is not necessary. CC-BY-SA 3.0 is a recommended license for publishing heterogeneous content that intended to be collaboratively edited and collaboratively curated: If your work is not being created for use with a particular software project, or if it wouldn't be appropriate to use ...

user55340

8:58 PM

@ThomasOwens He was the one arguing in other comments...

Thomas Owens

I dislike copyleft nutjobs.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens we dislike you too bub

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Good. Every time I'm out, I watch for Stallman.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens you should be watching out for the ninjas

Thomas Owens

I have pirates who watch out for the ninjas.

Ampt

9:01 PM

Later we'll dress up like Big Oil thugs and jump Ralph Nader.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec how would anyone like negative indices to be supported?

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa the way they are in Python?

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa seriously - it works great

Thomas Owens

-1 = the last element, -2 = the next to last element...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec does it show you a picture of your parents disapproving face and then turn off your computer?

Ampt

9:02 PM

@JimmyHoffa newNumber = "+" + cleaned.slice(0, -10) + " (" + cleaned.slice(-10, -7) + ") " + cleaned.slice(-7, -4) + "-" + cleaned.slice(-4);

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa only if those are the last two elements of your array

Thomas Owens

Guys, let's implement array indices as mod. If you have [1, 2, 3], 0 is 1, 1 is 2, 2 is 3, 3 is 1...

Ampt

Formats phone numbers with 1-3 digit country codes

user41796

So can you have a negative fence post error?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec ewww this is horrible

Ixrec

9:03 PM

this is not a new thing...

user55340

@sampablokuper Can you imagine the bonanza of patent suits in perlin noise tag on SO that have a patent sitting behind them? If I am writing some hobby code for playing with procedural generation of terrain and have a problem with the implementation, or ask for a code review - I'm not getting in trouble with the patent until I publish that code under a license that has a patent grant within it. — MichaelT 14 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

I'm sure it's not

Ampt

@Ixrec quick, tell him about negative resistances

Jimmy Hoffa

apparently I never noticed it was a thing

Ampt

and imaginary impedance!

Jimmy Hoffa

9:03 PM

because I've merrily lived my entire life never once wondering "Hey, what happens if I go to the negativeth element in this?"

user55340

That is why a patent grant license makes me go 'umm...' until I am certain that there is a lawyer who is willing to stand up behind me.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa so if you want the 3rd to last element of an array, what do you do?

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT I don't understand the difference between releasing code under the MIT license that implements a patented algortihm and that same code under Apache.

Jimmy Hoffa

which is good. Because nobody should wonder that or do that. They should be hit for doing it.

user55340

@ThomasOwens MIT doesn't give a patent grant along with it.

Thomas Owens

9:04 PM

@MichaelT And Apache only does if you are a contributor and own the patent rights.

user55340

If I publish something under MIT and there's a patent behind it, the patent suit is against the people who have made the product that they sell... not me.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa That's what we said about packing things in monads...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt arr[arr.length-4]

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa or you could just say -3 and have your code be clearer

user55340

If, on the other hand, I grant that the code that I have written has a grant of the patents... are the lawyers going to come looking for me?

Ixrec

9:05 PM

@JimmyHoffa it gets "worse": in Python you can reverse a string by doing str[::-1]

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt yes, but in that case, you were all wrong. Simon Peyton Jones and Phil Wadler were completely right on your behalves. You're welcome.

Ixrec

because array slices go [start:end:step]

Thomas Owens

> Subject to the terms and conditions of
this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable
(except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made,
use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work,
where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable
by such Contributor that are necessarily infringed by their
Contribution(s) alone or by combination of their Contribution(s)
with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was submitted.

Ampt

@Ixrec stop before you melt his fragile brain

Thomas Owens

"applies only to those patent claims licensable by such Contributor..."

Ixrec

9:06 PM

so I shouldn't bring up list comprehensions?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec -1 steps in a range generator/comprehension makes perfect since. That's the step distance, not the element index. Different things.

in Haskell you can do [10,9..0] or [10,8..0] to identify step distances

amon

@ThomasOwens +1 for Apache. I dislike permissive licenses, but unlike MIT the Apache v2 license strikes a good balance of being comprehensible and legally precise – and it includes a couple of important protections for all involved parties.

Ampt

@Ixrec actually he might like those - being functional and all that

user55340

@ThomasOwens little bit happier with it... though makes me wonder if I write some code that could possibly be seen as implementing Method and system for updating display of a hierarchy of categories for a document repository

Thomas Owens

@amon How do you dislike permissive licenses?

Ixrec

9:09 PM

oddly enough the languages that support negative indexing in arrays are also the same ones in which getting the length of an array is fairly concise, and thus don't benefit from it as much in the typical use cases

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Is that your patent?

user55340

@ThomasOwens yep. Assigned to Employer^^^

Jimmy Hoffa

((::)someStr) <$> [length someStr..0] would probably return a reversed someStr

...at a guess

Thomas Owens

If it's assigned to the employer, then you can't grant a right to use it.

user55340

That assignment means I can't license it to others.

Thomas Owens

9:10 PM

So if you write the code, Employer^^^ can come after you.

user55340

But I can improve on it such that it isn't covered by the patent... and get in a world legal fun.

Ampt

@Ixrec I thought that phone number example was pretty good

I literally just wrote that too

Thomas Owens

Well, that's another issue.

Ampt

Not sure if there's a more concise, clean way of doing that

user55340

But the thing is, I can't license it... so I shouldn't have to worry about that any more than I should worry about implementing perlin noise.

Ixrec

9:11 PM

@Ampt probably not a more concise way, but I think it could just as easily be done with positive indexes

user41796

@MichaelT Perhaps its because I jumped domains, but I've never really had an opportunity to revisit code that I have patents for

Ixrec

that was a cool example though

Ampt

@Ixrec it can be anywhere from 1-4 digits at the beginning though

the other way is length - x

which is more verbose

Ixrec

oh, I thought the beginning was exactly 4

user55340

@GlenH7 I applied code/logic that I was currently using to write a photo organizer for my blog back in the early 2000s.

Ixrec

9:12 PM

I have no idea what you're converting to/from then

Ampt

nope. could be 1, could be 4, or any inbetween

country codes

they can enter 10-15 digits, and I have to format it properly

amon

@ThomasOwens permissive licenses don't ensure that free code stays free. I've found the LGPL to have a good balance between freedom and usefulness in closed source, but it wouldn't be appropriate for code snippets.

user41796

@MichaelT clearly my code is not as useful

user55340

I could also use it to do a much better job search website than SE does.

Thomas Owens

@amon That is true. But, personally, I'd rather have maximum usage than total freedom.

It does depend. I can understand why Linus used GPL for the Linux kernel.

user55340

9:13 PM

Picture: job search with skills and technologies being different branches. I am a programmer (skill), I am familia with oracle (technology)

Ixrec

I am of the opinion that the value of software being free as in speech varies wildly depending on the software, and forced freedom can be a significant impediment or at least a massive nuisance for some uses

for something super-generic like a database, I'd be all for copylefting the hell out of it

user55340

@ThomasOwens note also that he's GPL v2

Thomas Owens

We are not permitted to provide our source code to some customers.

user55340

there was a big GPL v2 vs v3 thing at one point.

user55340

And I'm certain that RMS still grumbles when linux is mentioned.

Ixrec

9:14 PM

@MichaelT blame Tivo

user41796

@ThomasOwens The landscape of available licenses to choose from was quite narrow too

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT If I see him, I'll ask.

user55340

@Ixrec I'll blame Tivo for GPL v3... but Linus is fine with it.

Thomas Owens

I'll be like "Linux?" and record the noise he makes.

user55340

> You say what TiVo is doing is “a bit offensive.” So why not use GPLv3 [GNU General Public License] to make them stop doing it?

In my worldview, it’s OK for other people to do stupid things. I can complain about it, but in the end, it’s their choice. If somebody offends me too much, I’ll stop dealing with them. Now, I’ve had to limit my choice of long-distance phone companies because of this practice of mine, but I think it’s more productive in the long run than trying to be “activist” with software licensing. Activism and technical decisions just don’t mix well.

user55340

9:15 PM

forbes.com/2006/03/09/…

user41796

If you roll back to the early nineties when he released linux, a lot of the more common and sophisticated licenses simply didn't exist

Ixrec

in what way is the GPL unsophisticated?

user55340

It's very sophisticated.

user55340

Its that there were no contemporary sophisticated licenses.

Thomas Owens

Even the FSF suggests for some applications or when there's a greater good achieved from having your software used, you should use Apache.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:16 PM

@MichaelT Oracle ist in Ihrer Familie?

user41796

@Ixrec Sorry, said another way, there was BSD, MIT, and GPL to choose from

user55340

They were mostly of the very permissive "do whatever" types.

user41796

or "public domain"

Brandin

People still talking about licensing code snippets? Srsly people? License something that is worth licensing, like a real actual program.

user41796

And I'm skipping some, but you get the point. Apache's licenses didn't exist. CC definitely didn't exist.

Ixrec

9:17 PM

@Brandin this is why I have no strong opinions on the matter, I'm mostly watching for the schadenfreude

user41796

MS's open source licenses (ha ha ha!) didn't exist

user55340

I remember when Mozilla had their license and release party.

user41796

Hell, the whole idea of open source at that point was so anathema to MS that ... yeah, just laugh at the thought

Thomas Owens

I have very strong opinions on making sure that I receive attribution for my intellectual property. I want my knowledge to be available. I'm a huge proponent of CC-BY and Apache License v2.

user55340

(I went to that first Free Code - Free Party that they had... and did some tech support for an sgi system they had there)

Brandin

9:18 PM

@ThomasOwens Strong opinions don't mean much. Whether you are willing to take someone to court (and whether you think you can win) does.

user41796

@Brandin Not necessarily

Ixrec

my only strong opinion is that I don't want to get sued

user41796

if the t's & c's of a site become sufficiently onerous, people stop contributing

Thomas Owens

@Brandin I prefer options. Having the option to take someone to court is better than not having the option.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec then I'm charging you $50 for that opinion! It's mine and I own it, I will sue for it; pay up!

user55340

9:19 PM

@Brandin there's also the "is someone going to take me to court because they got the code from some place that didn't have a disclaimer of warranty on it?"

Ixrec

and frankly, I suspect that 99% of time programmers spend on licenses is all about not getting sued

Brandin

Yes, but you have to be willing to use the option. If not, then it means nothing.

Thomas Owens

@Brandin And if there was something to gain, I would.

Ixrec

so permissive licenses which reduce the need to waste time agonizing over that have a significant advantage

amon

@GlenH7 haha, as if most people would bother even skimming the TOS and privacy statement of every site they use.

user55340

9:20 PM

@Ixrec Just need to get one IP happy troll using all the code on SO, having it break, and then suing people because it was used in life support equipment and there wasn't a disclaimer on it.

user41796

@amon You don't need everyone to read the TOS for a site to become a graveyard

user41796

All you need is a few folk to read them, generate a lot of FUD on the interwebs, and people stop contributing

Brandin

That situation doesn't make sense. The company that produces that software (e.g. for life support systems) is the one that provides the warranty.

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa I meant people who actually write code, not people who argue about code on the internet

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec oh, because there's wayyy more of the ladder than the former.

Ixrec

9:22 PM

there's certainly more that we're aware of

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec I wasn't being sarcastic

user55340

@Brandin And all the libraries they have have a disclaimer of warranty... except that code someone grabbed from Stack Overflow and slipped in there.

Jimmy Hoffa

(upon re-reading it would appear as though I was, but not at all)

user55340

Of course you can argue back that they didn't license it properly because the life support software isn't CC-BY-SA so they messed up and shouldn't have used the code in the first place.

Brandin

Someone suing the manufacturers of the life support software won't care how they made the software. They made it and are warranting it. That's it.

Thomas Owens

9:24 PM

Are there any licenses that actively prevent someone from placing a warranty on it?

Ixrec

I'm not aware of any

Brandin

The same if I sue my car manufacturer for a malfunction. If they say "oh well you can't sue us because we got that subroutine from StackOverFlow". I don't think any judge is going to be impressed by that.

user55340

They can't sue Apache Commons Lang because it has a disclaimer of warranty on it. They can't sue the all rights reserved blog posting out there because they never had a license to use it in the first place.

Ixrec

unless you count a "no further restrictions on usage" provision to include "no restriction of the user's ability to sue people after usage"

which I really hope it doesn't include

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec I'm pretty sure restrictions on usage is just that - how you use the thing being licensed.

Ixrec

9:26 PM

wait, really?

user55340

But you can be certain that every contractor and contributor of code to the system is going to be investigated. And if someone put a bug in there that, they will get a call from a lawyer.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. If there are no restrictions, it means you can use it in your game or your guided missile.

Ixrec

so if the GPL didn't include an explicit warranty, I wouldn't be allowed to add a warranty if I used any GPL'd software in my program?

@ThomasOwens those are actual uses of the software, suing someone because the game broke or the missile hit the wrong city is something else

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec Yeah.

user55340

Then you have the other half of the problem. Say tomorrow I kick the bucket. My estate decides to make sure that all the code that I wrote is being properly used, or they go after the person. And lo and behold, there's a plethora of code on SE that people are using without having the final product being CC-BY-SA...

Brandin

9:28 PM

GPL doesn't give any warranty. You take that software and make a product out of it, then you sell your own warranty along with it. That's the way it is supposed to work. Original people who wrote the code are long gone and don't care whether your missile misfired.

Ixrec

> For the developers' and authors' protection, the GPL clearly explains that there is no warranty for this free software. For both users' and authors' sake, the GPL requires that modified versions be marked as changed, so that their problems will not be attributed erroneously to authors of previous versions.

gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

Thomas Owens

Stack Exchange should be in touch with Black Duck.

user55340

> 15. Disclaimer of Warranty.
THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM “AS IS” WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

amon

The GPL includes a warranty disclaimer, at least as far as possible in some jurisdictions. This protects the contributors. Of course, you can offer a warranty for the GPL software. This is a common business model.

Ixrec

derp, I was mixing up warranty and disclaimer of warranty

user55340

9:29 PM

Now, if something in GPL code breaks... oops. And that's the end of the story for lawyers trying to follow that.

Thomas Owens

They should feed everything on Stack Overflow into Black Duck and it can help companies manage their open source software usage.

user55340

What if something in CC-BY-SA code breaks?

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT CC BY-SA has a disclaimer of warranty.

All of the CC licenses do.

I think, anyway. BY does, and so does BY-SA.

user55340

> 5. Representations, Warranties and Disclaimer

UNLESS OTHERWISE AGREED TO BY THE PARTIES IN WRITING, LICENSOR OFFERS THE WORK AS-IS AND MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND CONCERNING THE MATERIALS, EXPRESS, IMPLIED, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES OF TITLE, MERCHANTIBILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT, OR THE ABSENCE OF LATENT OR OTHER DEFECTS, ACCURACY, OR THE PRESENCE OF ABSENCE OF ERRORS, WHETHER OR NOT DISCOVERABLE. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO SUCH EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY…

Thomas Owens

OK. Time to go shopping and go home, I think.

user41796

9:33 PM

@ThomasOwens Say "hey" to Richard on our behalf

Ixrec

hopefully someday SE will come back with a complete proposal for their relicensing thing and actually explain the motivation in a bit more detail than "the status quo sucks"

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I haven't seen him yet!

@Ixrec It's coming.

10

Q: Why separate code and non-code licensing?

The rationale for the license change proposals is at least somewhat clear: i.e. to reduce legal concerns of using code from answers in software that may use incompatible licenses. However, what seems to be missing is a justification for why the distinction between code and non-code was or should ...

discussion licensing copyright creative-commons

Tim Post is going to answer that question soonish.

He asked for it to be made, since it can't fit into a comment.

Ixrec

well, last time they only answered a tiny subset of the questions

user41796

@Ixrec I think that's all they had to go on and grossly underestimated the potential ramifications

Ixrec

so I'll wait and see what they put up next time

user41796

9:34 PM

@ThomasOwens Is that before or after SO swag is supposed to show up?

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I have my swag.

user41796

I don't

Thomas Owens

From like years ago.

OK. I'm out.

Good night, Programmers.

Ixrec

night

erkaner

have been working on an educational web application. I wonder how can I implement an API so that other major learning management systems (LMS) (Canvas, Dl2, etc.) can easily integrate my application into their systems. This integration means that when a link is added to the LMS, the users existing in the LMS will be created in my app, and they will be automatically logged in.

I just do not know where to start.

user55340

9:37 PM

-3

Q: developing API for your web application so that it can be integrated into other systems

I have been working on an educational web application. I wonder how can I implement an API so that other major learning management systems (LMS) (Canvas, Dl2, etc.) can easily integrate my application into their systems. This integration means that when a link is added to the LMS, the users exist...