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12:55 AM
@Snowman 1) start 2) develop 3) CSI montage 4) profit
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa I clicked the 'start' menu thing. I don't know where to develop. Will VB help with that CSI montage?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so answer more questions here. Our questions are better anyway, and you don't have to play FGITW to get rep; you have to know what you're talking about and be detailed/nuanced instead of just correct.
(don't ask me how I got any rep here, I just make shit up and hope nobody calls me on it. seems to be working.)
 
user114359
1:14 AM
@JimmyHoffa That and you have a corner on the market with the Haskell/FP questions
 
@Snowman nonsense, there's a number of people who have a far better grasp on that stuff than I. I just understand it better than the typical enterprise folk; but we enterprise folk don't understand much beyond XML and frameworks to begin with
 
user114359
@JimmyHoffa BS. I know JSON, too.
 
@Snowman you're no longer enterprisey then, you're officially a UI hipster who only designs marketing splash sites.
 
user55340
1:30 AM
@JimmyHoffa shh. "Full Stack Developer working with enterprise frameworks on the back end and industry standard UI frameworks"
 
user55340
As long as you don't say the "R" word, you'll be fine.
 
user55340
@Snowman nah... he just tries to write about design and slip in other ideas.
 
user55340
31
A: How to create better OO code in a relational database driven application where the database is poorly designed

Jimmy HoffaObject orientation is valuable specifically because these types of scenarios arise, and it gives you tools to reasonably design abstractions that allow you to encapsulate complexity. The real question here is, where do you encapsulate that complexity? So let me step back a moment and speak to w...

 
user55340
> That's right, let's start talking about a monad. You could create this translation layer in a very independent fashion of small specific functions that do the independent translations necessary, but hide all of those translation functions away not visible so they are hardly accessible to outside code.
 
user114359
1:51 AM
> Now let's start talking crazy.
 
user114359
Start? I thought @JimmyHoffa always talked crazy
 
2:01 AM
@MichaelT codes of conduct, really? I haven't ventured about SE chat too much, but I wouldn't have expected such
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Many other rooms have a "this is how you must behave"
 
user114359
@MichaelT Be Nice
 
user55340
@Snowman yep... but it still needs to be spelled out.
 
user114359
@MichaelT Nobody reads the help center on any SE site, why would they read a code of conduct?
 
user114359
"RTFM" is too many letters
 
user55340
2:04 AM
@Snowman because its regularly enough a problem that they need to point to it to have justification to boot someone from a room.
 
I guess being that our SE site is pretty explicitly for professional industry workers, perhaps we are used to enough hostility in our cube walls (please PM, don't hit me anymore..) so we don't bring it online? Who knows
 
user55340
Mar 27 at 16:44, by Robert Harvey
Funny how this is the only genuinely civilized room in the lot.
 
user55340
I do believe its our focus and professionalism. I consider everyone in the room to be a co-worker and talk to them just as would if they were in the next cube over and the manager was one cube further down.
 
user114359
Probably a combination of the lower volume on this site and the fact that the same people that might need to be kicked out post one question, get frustrated because they didn't read what is on-topic, and leave anyway.
 
user55340
Or... (I think Robert is our biggest cheer leader too)
 
user55340
2:07 AM
Sep 19 '14 at 19:28, by Robert Harvey
This is probably the most civil room on the network. I did a random sampling of several of the programming rooms recently... none of them had a fsck rating of zero.
 
user55340
Sep 19 '14 at 19:29, by Robert Harvey
Interestingly, we are also one of the few who don't have "Room Rules."
 
user55340
That September 2014 conversation is a good one.
 
user55340
@Ampt btw, yes, WAYBACK flashback... my parents and brother have it now. Its their "I want a real camera that can do more than the phone camera". My brother also uses it for stop motion animation. I may get another one for myself at some point, but a bit more serious of a design.
 
@MichaelT since I have both the biggest office at my work and it's completely empty because they haven't hired anybody, you guys are the closest thing to folks-next-cube-over I got hah. My boss is getting a little uncertain about how I'm doing sitting alone all day every day in the office
@MichaelT did you ever pickup the v2 of that weird hologram-camera-thingy?
 
user55340
1 min ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT since I have both the biggest office at my work and it's completely empty because they haven't hired anybody, you guys are the closest thing to folks-next-cube-over I got hah. My boss is getting a little uncertain about how I'm doing sitting alone all day every day in the office
 
user55340
2:12 AM
@JimmyHoffa Nah... neat camera, neat idea... not at all useful for prints.
 
@MichaelT yeah, I wouldn't think it would be, very interesting thingy though. I remember they came out with some "new better than ever!" version some time back and wonder if it really improved it to the point of being worth a damn
 
user55340
Btw, if you want one for... oh ghads thats cheap now. bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929419-REG/…
 
I remember you saying the original was neat but the quality was too low
@MichaelT is that the v2 one?
 
user55340
 
user55340
Original price $999. I wouldn't at that price. Its about half off now.
 
2:14 AM
yeah, even at half off that's still damn steep for an interesting idea to test
 
user55340
If you want to test it though, get that <$100 one.
 
user55340
And then consider that the $1k (or $600 with the sale that ends today) one is only 4x more resolution. Which means 2x bigger on each side.
 
user55340
In the mean time...
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT aye... you know what will be awesome? When they have very high quality versions of these and start recording film with them. Imagine attaching such to something like google cardboard so as you move it around it moves the focus point appropriately correcting perspective of periphery
 
user55340
2:18 AM
 
wonder what kind of things they can do when they start getting such with film
 
user55340
You mean "record digital for display of movies".
 
@MichaelT ? not sure
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Light field cameras don't go to a physical media... it just doesn't work that way.
 
@MichaelT right I know; yeah I meant movies not film
film = movies. Do they still use film? That seems awfully silly.
 
user55340
2:20 AM
 
user55340
Some do. Most don't. I'm not sure they have an imax capable digital camera.
 
user55340
Traditional film vs imax film (its a 120 format film):
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT can't figure why they wouldn't. Storage bandwidth?
 
user55340
Here's avatar on Imax:
 
user55340
2:22 AM
 
hook the camera up on fibre channel to a san array... sure it'd be bulky but so are the crazy devices they use for lots of camera work anyway...
perhaps even then they couldn't get the same resolution, the hell do I know about this stuff
 
user55340
Regular format is 400 mm^2. Imax is 3,400 mm^2. So... you need about 10x the storage space and bandwith.
 
Side note: I bet in 10 years hollywood is going to be picking up entire bitcoin mining farms on fire sale as the mining is no longer worth it and they have absolutely crazy graphics compute power to bring to bear on making the digital work hollywood does more efficient
 
user55340
Medium format digital cameras exist. Not cheap. They exist... bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1070610-REG/… - though I will point out thats only a 43.8mm x 32.9mm sensor... about 1/3 the size of an imax frame.
 
user55340
For comparison, here's a 6k "brain" of a movie camera... red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-brain-deposit and its only a 19 megapixel camera. That Hasselbad back is a 50mp camera... and Imax is 3x larger media than that.
 
user55340
2:31 AM
The other part of the problem is that sensor price goes up much faster than the increase in sensor area.
 
user55340
Here's a 4" x 4" sensor...
 
user55340
 
user55340
Thats a 111 megapixel sensor. Its also something that was commissioned by the naval observatory - the type of things governments buy.
 
user55340
This is because the price of the wafer is constant... and the amount you get out of it is based on the sensor size.
 
user55340
 
user55340
2:34 AM
So for the cost of 1 "full frame" sensor (1/24th of the space), you can make 10 sensors for a small point and shoot camera. $600 vs $60 type comparison there.
 
user55340
But it gets even worse than that...
 
user55340
 
user55340
Because you've got flaws. So the yield is good to have at 1/3 of them working. So only 8 of those 24 work, compared to about 210 of the 240 on the small size.
 
user55340
And this is why digital can't do large formats. Its way to expensive.
 
user55340
One of my cameras is this guy...
 
user55340
2:37 AM
 
user55340
That "45" on the name? It shoots 4" x 5" sheets of film.
 
user55340
You can buy a scanning back for it... betterlight.com/superModels.html but... yea.
 
user55340
Aside from it being a scanning back (it is a scanner - not a single sensor - means you get motion artifacts from things moving), its not cheap and means you have difficulty with taking the camera into the field (need a computer next to you to capture the data).
 
user55340
 
user55340
Want to rent it for a day? That will be 900 euro (and you have to pick it up in Switzerland)
 
user114359
 
user55340
Ive got... do you want the full list?
 
user114359
My point is all that stuff is too rich for my blood
 
user114359
I thought about upgrading to a $200 digital camera
 
user55340
Consider the finances of a single male working in dot com silly valley boom days with otherwise low cost of living (good deal on an apartment, I wear clothes until they have multiple holes that can't be patched...) I've got a few toys.
 
user55340
Also, if you want to play with some tech... bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929419-REG/…
 
3:20 AM
Is there a tradition here that meta questions are CW?
Because I don't see the rationale behind meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/q/7679 being CW
 
user114359
@Undo No tradition, I just felt like it.
 
@Snowman Ah, okay then
That had me confused ;)
 
user114359
If I were asking about something specific that I had done, e.g. a question I asked or had an issue with, I wouldn't have. I think the topic of "migration path" is a community decision though, so I felt CW was more appropriate.
 
user55340
a "not my opinion, feel free to vote or edit"
 
user114359
Even though the users who typically discuss these things on meta have the rep to edit whatever they want, people tend to be hesitant to change much if it is not CW because it has someone's name attached as the "owner" of that post.
 
5:22 AM
@Snowman: You could have saved yourself some time if you'd read that guy's comments below his question. He solved the problem himself, and the question is off-topic; I doubt he'll be back.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:37 AM
@JimmyHoffa meh
 
 
3 hours later…
12:29 PM
Happy Coffee Day
@LightnessRacesinOrbit gads you'd have to be dead tired of answering questions altogether with that much feckin' SO rep, more less from SO where answering questions is mostly hunting semicolons and curly braces 'n shit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit here, do answer this instead, it's fun and abstract while being in your wheelhouse:
1
Q: State Machine Memory Management Problems

Nathan CooperMy state machine handles requests and returns the next state. In the below simplification, I've got two states here, CreatedState and RunningState. Running state is the end state, and just returns itself. Running state has state (as in memebers) that need to be preseved, I'll use the integer coun...

 
12:43 PM
Shouldn't this belongs to programmersJude Niroshan 31 secs ago
 
AGH I just found this little beauty in the code base from my boss: if ((typeof(T) == typeof(string)) || (typeof(T) == typeof(String)))
 
@JimmyHoffa :D
@JimmyHoffa I usually don't answer those bullshitz
 
headdesk...ugh... he champions OO design so much and is all about coding and engineering but...some things he does indicate he's not as strong in C# as he seems to believe... great guy but wow, I'm going to have to bring this one up to him later
 
@JimmyHoffa yeah that's more like the questions I tend to answer
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so get away from that grody SO place, yucky, just tell those good Qs like that to post over on P.SE where their content will sit among the prized jewels of SE! :D P.SE for SE king!
Feb 28 '14 at 20:51, by Jimmy Hoffa
Nov 26 '13 at 16:59, by Jimmy Hoffa
err, excuse me
 
12:53 PM
I don't think I've even once suggested a migration to Programmers that Shog didn't immediately shout down
I'm afraid to ever do so again because apparently I don't "get it"
Though if that question you posted is on-topic here then I can't have been too far off the mark..
 
Feb 27 '14 at 17:47, by Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey let's be honest here. P.SE has very high quality standards for our content; SO is just our toilet bowl.
 
ew
SO? toilet bowl? Never!
238
Q: Why can't my program compile under Windows 7 in French?

Lightness Races in OrbitI'm running Windows 7 French and I'm trying to compile this really basic program, but Visual Studio is being stubborn and refuses to comply. I also tried compiling it with both GCC 4.7 and Clang trunk on Coliru and I get more or less the same errors (output is below the code), though I think Coli...

 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit nobody wants the toilet bowl spitting back up, but yeah the vast majority of non-participants here are clueless on what fits so people tend towards quickly demanding people don't post over here
to be fair, @shog9 is wise in telling people not to repost over here because he knows he'll have a smarmy @gnat dropping angry youtube music videos on him for the rest of the day if he does
Ok, if I'm being completely honest, searching for "youtube" when said by @gnat in the whiteboard history actually looks like a spectacular way to build a days playlist, god knows there's enough content
 
Would an esoteric-ish question about GCC configuration/usage be on topic?
in the main
 
1:09 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit plausibly not; our questions need to be somewhat conceptual if their specifically technical. That C++ Q I posted is speaking about the conceptual design around handling a state machine implementations memory usage and references, a solution can be C++ specific but could also be illuminating on the ideas of immutability and copy-on-read in state machine design and how they effect the overall semantics of the system
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if the GCC configuration/usage Q is something to the tune of toolchain usage / configuration approach (I.E. what you've been doing with Docker) then it would fit. The trick for technical questions on our site is that while they may be super specific, they have to be touching cross-technology concepts (like state machines, or configuration practices)
 
@JimmyHoffa sactly good
ok incoming then
0
Q: Can I build 32-bit binaries on an x86_64 system ... without changing the compilation command?

Lightness Races in OrbitI'm currently rebuilding our build server, and creating a set of Docker images for our various projects, as each has rather different toolchain and library requirements. These images must be able to build historical/tagged releases of our projects without modification; we can make changes to the...

ok?
 
Happy Coffee Day....
 
@JiriTousek Not really - code review is... for code reviews but here there is no code to review. Unless the OP can post his code. And the question is probably too broad / opinion based to be posted on programmers.stackexchange.com. — assylias 59 secs ago
 
1:24 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit there's a reason there's a bot linking in all recommendations to programmers.stackexchange from SO...
lol. speak of the devil
 
why did nobody inform me about Vagrant
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit eh, seems alright I suppose... I don't know enough about the C++ toolchain to really know what the issue is, it does seem kind of specific to just GCC or G++ or whichever compiler application you're running
@LightnessRacesinOrbit because nobody likes C++ coders? ;D (...what's Vagrant? lmgtfm...)
looks like it uses VMs akin to what I was referring to yesterday
 
@JimmyHoffa yeah. our team used Vagrant and docker :P
 
@enderland and that's not redundant? Does vagrant have a provider so it can work atop docker like it can for vmware/vbox/blablabla ?
 
@JimmyHoffa I am not 100% as my memory is a bit fuzzy, but docker was for making local builds way better
but idk
vagrant managed the VM that they ran in though
which is really screwy now that I think abou tit
 
1:35 PM
@enderland the local builds?
@enderland yeah, that's redundant. If you had the available resources for people to just be using a VM solution such as vagrant, there's no good reason for them to have been bothering with docker from what I'm seeing; again docker is about light weight low resource. VMs aren't super heavy weight depending on how many of them you need
 
@JimmyHoffa now we have vagrant manage our VM but then ran docker for local builds
@JimmyHoffa our company fails the hardware test of the joel test
 
ick, that's the easiest test to pass, I haven't been anywhere that failed that one in ages...
 
@enderland lol
 
long live enterprisey work environments I guess, 2 24" monitors and 12gb+ of ram since '08
 
maybe if I need VMs, I can install Vagrant and have my wrapper script transparently handle the difference between Vagrant boxes and Docker images :D
oooh yeahhh baby
 
1:39 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you're finding out wrapper scripts and all of these modern technologies are just a hell of a lot more fun than dealing with the C++ you're supposed to be spending your time on aren't you? ;P
 
@JimmyHoffa yes
:(
still think I should be able to get a 32-bit CentOS working within 64-bit host though
trying something atm
 
haha ahh it was funny until I realized how sad that is
@LightnessRacesinOrbit do 64 bit linux kernels have some 32 bit emulation like windows does?
 
@JimmyHoffa it appears so; something to do with linux32 and telling yum to use i686 as basearch ... but before the first yum invocation so packaged CentOS images from the hub are out
 
without it you're not going to get docker to behave like it's 32-bit, you'd be better off using the toolchain configuration to demand compilation to 32-bit rather than trying to trick it into thinking it is 32-bit. Lord knows how many #defines there were in the code that compiled those 64-bit toolchain assemblies that makes them absolutely certain they're in a 64-bit environment no matter what you tell them
 
I'm recreating a "centos-i686" image found on the hub ... just needs the above techniques plus a ~52MB centos tarball
@JimmyHoffa right - that was why I asked about toolchain config before, but if I can keep away from that then so much the better
right now everything being installed appears to be i686 variant so that's good
 
1:45 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit not 100% sure about that though, tell me 32-bit toolchain can't compile 64-bit assemblies.... something tells me they can and your wrapper script isn't going to stop people's build configurations from targeting 64-bit no matter what the toolchain is
@LightnessRacesinOrbit O_o how many different build environments / configurations do you need? Less than 5 and I'd start wondering if vagrant VMs even for local builds would be a better approach...
 
1:57 PM
enderland can't remember how we solved that problem
 
@enderland you guys don't code C++ do you? .NET I thought
or ABAP
 
@JimmyHoffa depends. our "real" software dev is mostly C++
I've been part of multiple teams as part of my rotational-hell, one was there (which was actual software dev officially) and the others were more ad hoc stuff
I'm getting the "lots of exposure to many many things" shotgun blast of moving around internally a lot
 
@JimmyHoffa it's probably 5 or 6 to start with; expected to grow because part of the reason for this is to make it much easier to support e.g. newer C++ & GCC in future versions of the projects, without affecting the build environment of historical releases/branches
@JimmyHoffa nobody's build configuration targets any particular architecture
and I didn't say it would stop that!
my wrapper script will, however, allow me to present all sorts of environments to my team, be they virtualised or not, without the team having to care about much
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah ok, then the VM approach is not going to scale for you guys the way you want and the way docker will. Yeah sounds like figuring out how to make docker pretend 32-bit is going to be the best way to solve that problem
 
yarp
meh, next week
for now, for this particular image, I think I'll stick with native arch but try to figure out how to make the base GCC default to i686 builds
must be possible
 
2:12 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit i vaguely remember having to import specific toolchains based on compiler architecture
 
user55340
0
Q: Customer doesn't like the term "business logic"

Ed PlunkettI've been hired to do contract programming work for a small non-profit social services organization. In the initial meeting, I used the phrase "business logic" and my contact at the non-profit became very upset, stating that it's "not a business" and "you don't use business logic on homeless peop...

 
@MichaelT LOL
 
> No package gcc.i686 available
frak off
 
lol
 
ok so I'll install native gcc, the i686 glibc (that's fine) ... and somehow default it all to -m32....
 
2:19 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit shell alias? assembly ln to shell script that appends? burn it all to the ground and scream inchoate rage upon the ashes of it's demise?
12 hours ago, by Snowman
Start? I thought @JimmyHoffa always talked crazy
 
mm maybe something like:
RUN yum -y install \
	gcc gcc-c++ glibc.i686 ncurses-libs.i686 \
	boost-devel.i686 bzip2-devel.i686 net-snmp-devel.i686

RUN \
	echo '/usr/bin/gcc -m32 "$@"' > /opt/gcc32/gcc \
	echo '/usr/bin/g++ -m32 "$@"' > /opt/gcc32/g++ \
	chmod +x /opt/gcc32/*
ENV PATH /opt/gcc32:$PATH
hackaholic
 
user55340
I'm tempted to point this over to workplace.stackexchange.com as well... — JDT 57 secs ago
 
user55340
Aside, I've already flagged it for freelance.se
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if it's simple and it works, nothing wrong with small hacks that do the job.
@MichaelT can I flag it for Numerology.SE? Everything's a problem for numerology, just ask a numerologist
 
user55340
Btw, ever read Zodiac?
 
user55340
2:27 PM
Zodiac: An Eco-Thriller (1988) is a novel by American writer Neal Stephenson. His second novel, it tells the story of an environmentalist, Sangamon Taylor, uncovering a conspiracy involving industrialist polluters in Boston Harbor. The "Zodiac" of the title refers to the brand of inflatable motor boats the hero uses to get around the city efficiently. His opponents attempt to frame him as an ecoterrorist. The protagonist is inspired by environmental chemist Marco Kaltofen. Taylor is a recreational user of nitrous oxide, justifying his choice of drug by the eponymous Sangamon's principle: "the simpler...
 
@MichaelT that question reminds me of why people skills are so important in technical fields. "customer pissed off at me after I argued with her about technical things" and everyone basically says, "point out how wrong she is!"
 
@enderland I didn't look at the Q, but if that's what it says... facepalm
 
user55340
In zodiac the main character explains to his boss (very much a tree hugger) that the chemicals in the power supply in the computer (that he refuses to turn on) are much less worrisome than those in the drywall. Or something like that.
 
Oh, God, no, not that -- for the sake of brevity I left out her reaction to "problem domain". — Ed Plunkett 53 secs ago
haha
 
user55340
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the walk away from it that I'd advise is the "this is just going to go down hill until the client finds someone who either doesn't know technology or English"
 
2:36 PM
@MichaelT inb4 outsource to India problem solved
 
user55340
Nobel or otherwise, I don't want to have to find new words for all the jargon the industry uses.
 
user55340
I was thinking more Eastern Europe. India has a good grasp of English most of the time.
 
spat out my tea
 
user55340
Or a php coder.
 
does it
I have a "doubt" about that sir
anyway, you have a Nobel?
 
user55340
2:39 PM
No, no bells around here.
 
user55340
Maybe Greece. I wonder if Yannis needs a job.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit they have only met once, if they were working a long time together then they might have a better "work it out" answer from me. but it's a brand new client
 
user114359
@RobertHarvey It was 1 AM, my brain was tired, and I was feeling generous for the first time in at least 20 years.
 
user114359
 
2:44 PM
our HVAC power keeps cycling and it becomes super eerie quiet...
 
user41796
@enderland secret cybernetics lab drawing too much power again?
 
@GlenH7 crap!
 
@GlenH7 I'm not sure, our power isn't cycling but just the HVAC
 
@enderland depending on how often it is, could be one of those power conservation thingers - 15 minutes on 15 minutes off sorts of thing you can put on any HVAC system to save energy
 
user41796
Pretty easy deception that way. No one thinks otherwise about it
 
2:48 PM
@JimmyHoffa more like 2 seconds off
and it's the entire air circulation system
 
@enderland alternatively there's a crazy heist going on and there's 2 irish dudes in fatigues in the ducts above you right now, killing the fans just long enough for them to get through each one
jus' sayin
 
I technically work at a big bank (kinda? billions of transactions go through this building). maybe it's like OCEANS 15
 
user55340
Wrong non the answer by unregistered users. Sigh.
 
user55340
0
A: Does an Interpreter produce machine code?

AnonymousAdding to the answers already present, a common first step in compilation is tokenising, that is to say cutting up the source code into keywords and suchlike. Even very early on, programming languages that didn't perform the subsequent compilation steps did tokenise the source code in advance of ...

 
@MichaelT no, they just mouth off about you in a language you don't know. Does nobody watch foreign news? Kids these days..
 
2:57 PM
# (test)
RUN echo '__x86_64__' | gcc -E -xc - | grep -vq '__x86_64__'
genius
image build will fail if GCC is still x86_64
@enderland arp
Speaking as someone who is thoroughly familiar with the problems of the homeless: Your "customer" is batshit crazy. Run, don't walk, to the nearest emergency exit. — Michael Hampton 5 mins ago
awkward
 
user55340
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I need to hunt up all of the universities that have students trying to restrict things that might be "offensive".
 
@MichaelT haha I read about that - some colleges in the states where professors can't say "rape" because of "triggering" people?
even in a freakin' law class
 
user55340
People ascribing too much emotion to words, especially jargon in an unfamiliar domain are going to have trouble in the real world. And no, that client isn't living in the real world.
 
I can kind of see it though, having a bunch of technical jargon dumped on you by someone who is not properly able to communicate with people outside of their field (pretty bad when those people are clients), when you're someone who probably really hates the capitalist world.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit this is what happens when the problems you complained about yesterday have people try to fix them, somewhat
freedom and political correctness are fairly opposite in many regards
 
3:03 PM
The client should have CTFO when the situation was explained to her, but the OP is equally at fault for not properly abstracting their jargon
 
user55340
As domain knowledge needs to be deeper, jargon is likely to become more opaque to people outside that domain.
 
my guess is the convo went like:
"business logic. blah blah"
"what do you mean business logic?"
"it's how the site works."
"but we're not a business"
"yeah, but it's how the site works"
"why do you want it to be a business? we're not a business"
"ITS CALLED BUSINESS LOGIC"
"seriously, wtf are you calling it that for? we're a nonprofit, don't you have any empathy?"
 
user55340
I'm guessing this client is a one person endeavor with some other volunteers who has a little bit of money to set up a web site.
 
bleh, PC is a cultural thing, it has nothing to do with freedom and really shouldn't. People associate it with the idea of legislating politeness (dumb as hell) to make the whole cultural concept a dumping bin for shit they don't like that they can get agreement from:
These people want to tell us what we can and can't say on colleges! Jerks! They're always trying to ascribe their PCness to us! I say we remove all regulation on these schools so they have *freedom* to choose only white non-handicapped students! Then they won't be offended!
 
argarghargarga when people delete questions as I'm writing a good answer #die
> It should never cause a problem _per se_, but Windows developers envisage every product using the Windows Installer system, which [I'm guessing] is locked during invocation to avoid nasty inconsistencies within itself. With that in mind, it makes sense to just stop people from even trying it, at the top level, to avoid error messages that might make people fret.
>
> tl;dr: MSI is not "thread-safe"
so as not to waste it, thx
@enderland lol right exactly
 
3:07 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit given that nearly all comments/answers just say "repeat that it's business logic, she'll clearly get it" it sure wouldn't surprise me
@JimmyHoffa yeah the trick is freedom of speech vs legit discrimination types of things
 
Legislating politeness or cultural proscription is garbage. It's rarely the PC side that's trying to legislate cultural anything though. People really need to learn to separate their disagreement with "PC" from their disagreement with good common sense social safety measures. PC is about not offending people and isn't important, but regulation and social safety measures are about seeing to it my kid isn't told he's not allow to go to college because he has a health condition.
@enderland yeah, but lots of politicians and pundits muddy these two things on purpose. Create fervor, then redirect it, that's the name of the game.
"You don't want to pay taxes!? Taxes are costly and you don't make enough money to pay that crap!? fervor fervor fervor blabla - So under my plan we will tear down this tax system, we will create more jobs and your taxes will drop, you won't be paying for deadbeats! redirect redirect redirect"
 
user55340
Meanwhile... JavaScript. Jquery. Jrumble. Grumble.
 
The roman arena all over again. Create the mob, control the mob.
@MichaelT haha, not having fun with it?
 
@enderland do they? the way I read it, they all said "give up and move on"
 
user55340
Just some async call fun. Why is this working now? Oh. Async call.
 
3:13 PM
5
A: Customer (small non-profit social services organization) doesn't like the term "business logic"

JDTUse 'domain logic' instead of 'business logic', it's probably a less laden term to use with said person. Simply tell her that you have eliminated all traces of 'business' logic and replaced it with 'domain' logic. If that does not convince her, nothing will I'm afraid...

6
A: Customer (small non-profit social services organization) doesn't like the term "business logic"

BecuzzI would explain to her that "business logic" is an software industry term for the process that the software takes to determine what to do in a given situation. For example, whether to offer the homeless person a Super Awesome Package of Doodads or the Deluxe Doodad Basket given the information y...

 
user55340
It's 2;2 with comments from non answers being very much move on.
 
@MichaelT use those promises. JQuery's deferreds really are pretty pleasant to work with but yeah you have to realize what is and what isn't asynchronous and make sure to nest things into the right continuation scope..
 
@durron597 going through 2016 goals with my manager, kind of awkward since I really want to leave themmore I think about it
 
@enderland that's a goal
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit LOL
 
user55340
3:21 PM
@enderland remind me to tell you about goals at employer^^ when I can type.
 
@enderland fortunately my manager doesn't bother with professional catchups or appraisals or any of that nonsense. haven't been asked my goals in 8 years
 
@MichaelT our goal system is 100% bs
"this system for managing your goals is really not the best"
"I really like this system, it's really important. it's really a pretty amazing system to get feedback"

FML.
 
"my goal is to improve the goals system"
 
user55340
The goals were directly related to the bonus.
 
what's this ... "bo nus"? of which you speak?
checking for C compiler default output file name...
configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
ah bollocks
 
user55340
3:25 PM
Four goals: get all four, +10%. Get 3, + 5%. Get 2, 0%? Get 1, -5%. None, -10%.
 
user55340
None of the goals I had were things I was working on or had any influence on making it successful.
 
user55340
As I said. Need to type rather than tap to rant at proper speed.
 
:)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's like gratuity in america: A cheap trick to pay people next to nothing by selling them on the possibility of more money that you never have to make good on.
 
user55340
3:29 PM
It's also how they kept us under exempt status while paying a bit more.
 
user55340
Exempt employees don't get pay differential for overtime, but can't be mandated to work it either.
 
psr
3:45 PM
@MichaelT I've got some code to automatically sequence asynch calls based on a dependency graph you provide. Much easier to refactor than promises. Maybe I should see if I can open-source it - I couldn't find anything out there.
 
@enderland we haven't had any bonus in like 4 years
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit amurica!
 
user114359
Ubuntu just released 15.10. This time instead of naming it after an animal, they named it after a human who changes into an animal: Ubuntu 15.10 (Wily Werewolf). They could have named it Wicked Wolverine, which would at least have a cool X-men tie-in.
 
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