The Whiteboard

André

7:01 PM

There is a ISP here offering 100/50, for same amount of $ for the current 10/2, need to check if I'm eligible

Ampt

it's the friggin cap that's the problem. 300GB is nothing

enderland

7:13 PM

@Snowman downvote moar!

Ampt

how do I downvote comcast

perhaps I can cast a delete vote?

enderland

use quest

we used to jokethat comcast should brand themselves as "at least we're not quest"

or that an ISP guaranteeing mediocre service could be wildly popular

user55340

@Ampt you need more reps.

durron597

Dangit @gnat This is not a duplicate of how do you know if you've written easily maintainable code

Ixrec

lol, I was wondering what on earth those two questions had to do with each other

user114359

7:19 PM

@durron597 I do not see what is wrong with that question, either as a dupe or opinion-based.

user114359

@Ixrec I don't have the link saved but somewhere I think on Meta.SE it basically says that a more specific question can be marked duplicate of a more general question. The idea being that the answers to the more general question also cover the more specific question.

user114359

The issue I have with that specific question as a dupe is it is too general. This question is specifically asking to compare two code constructs, and the idea of "it passed code review" is a cop-out.

Ixrec

yeah, that's a very extreme example of that principle

the answer there definitely won't cover any questions about specific code snippets

user55340

@Snowman the problem with A vs B for code styles is that it boils down to what is more maintainable (one hopes) and without specific guidance in the question gets to I like A vs I like B.

user114359

I honestly hate this question because its answers are borderline useless.

durron597

7:22 PM

@Snowman I thought it was opinion based, but I can see why others would disagree. But it's NOT a dupe.

Ixrec

I was about to say, it seems like something we would've VTC'd

I disagree that the answers are useless though

for a newbie to programming, hearing "you find out in code review" is potentially very useful and non-obvious

user114359

@MichaelT I agree, except there are specific reasons for picking one over the other in the context of compiler guarantees. This is not a question of where to put the curly braces, but can I have a pointer to a partially-initialized object?

user55340

And yes, the maintainable question is so broad and old as to be near useless.

user114359

@Ixrec I think the topic of the question could be useful especially to new developers, but that specific question and its answers are crap in my opinion.

user55340

@enderland yes.

user55340

7:24 PM

@enderland Yes.

user114359

@MichaelT I actually just voted to close that question as "too broad"

user55340

@Snowman it's an old poll. Makes me sad.

user114359

@MichaelT the question or my vote?

user55340

@Snowman ~~yes~~ the question.

user55340

The hangers on from the NPR days suggest they wrote good content. However they failed to moderate other people's content and left us with too broad crap.

user55340

7:31 PM

15

A: How would you know if you've written readable and easily maintainable code?

If you can understand it after 6 months, it's not bad.

user55340

Come on people.

enderland

@MichaelT to be fair that's not a bad litmus test...

user55340

@enderland yes?

enderland

but a bad answer here nonetheless :-)

user55340

@enderland ahh. Yes.

user55340

7:33 PM

(Poking fun at stereotypical outsourced email communication)

enderland

Ha

gnat

5

A: Voting to close - duplicate of a closed question

Even if you choose "off topic" as the reason to close, I would still at least point out the duplicate if you know about it. There are two goals to closing a question: keeping the question from getting further attention, and educating the asker so they'll be a better contributor. Pointing out t...

Jul 16 at 19:55, by gnat

@Snowman well as for me, I tend to refer this canonical when askers look for comparing two (three, four...) ways of doing something without explaining their needs and preferences. Subtler kind of shopping / Gorilla vs Shark. "Tell me anything you know about Nikon and Canon and I will pick what I like. ...no I won't tell you what I like, just feed me everything you know" -- this stuff is typically on the cliff of too broad

user55340

The awkward part is it's such a meaningless set of answers. Yes, the dup origin is a poor question. But the target isn't much better (and often worse)

user114359

"Answer shopping" is one thing, but asking for a comparison of two code constructs where there may be a consensus among experts is different.

user114359

1

A: Failed Close Vote Review

No, you are not out of line, but I would respectfully disagree with you. Yes, the asker outlines three possibilities, but that doesn't immediately make the question opinion based. The question is almost equivalent to asking "Should I use return values, errno or longjmp to report an error in C?" ...

Thomas Owens

7:47 PM

I have a good question for Programmers, but I really feel like I should be able to self answer it. But I can't.

ratchet freak

@ThomasOwens what is it?

Ixrec

that seems like the ideal mindset to have going into a question

Thomas Owens

The difference between a logical view and structural view of a system. IEEE Std 1016-2009 defines the purpose of the logical view as being "to elaborate existing and designed types and their implementations as classes and interfaces with their structural static relationships" and also "uses examples of instances of types in outlining design ideas". The structure view "is used to document the internal constituents and organization of the design subject in terms of like elements (recursively)".

In the example modeling notations, UML class diagrams appear in both. Object diagrams appear in logical and composite structure and package diagram appear in structure.

Ixrec

my blind guess would be that in an ideal world they are identical, and the distinction crops up when your domain requires something the language cannot perfectly represent

Thomas Owens

There are also different design elements. The logical view shows classes, interface, power types, data types, objects, attributes, methods, association classes, templates, and namespaces using associations, generalization, dependency, realization, implementation, instance, composition, and aggregation. The structure view shows ports, connectors, interface, parts, and classes using enclosed, provided, required.

user55340

7:56 PM

@ThomasOwens just delete that knuth why post. Much easier.

Thomas Owens

I think logical is how it is conceptually, but structure actually shows how the code is laid out?

Ixrec

that's what my blind guess was based on

Thomas Owens

So a structure view would show the fact that a particular thing is actually an inner class, while the logical view would ignore that, for example.

user55340

9

Q: Why does Knuth forbid the reading of pre-chapter quotations in The Art of Computer Programming?

After the preface to The Art of Computer Programming is the Procedure for Reading This Set of Books. Step 4 is to begin reading Chapter N, with the specific instruction to "not read the quotations that appear at the beginning of the chapter." (emphasis his). This section is present in the 1997...

taocp

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens I assume so.

user55340

7:57 PM

No answers. No possible good answers.

Ixrec

relevant codeless code koan

Thomas Owens

Doesn't matter much.

I'm starting at the application level, showing the dependencies between my components and then decomposing each one into a package structure and then package structures into relevant class structures.

So I'm all like "my view is more relevant".

Just a straight up decomposition from top-down.

gnat

8:11 PM

@MichaelT at 16K views and especially at over 100 linked questions, I think we can safely invoke a spell of Atwood on it. Would you want to make a meta post?

Ixrec

the answer there feels outdated to me; didn't Shog once tell Thomas on meta meta that "historical lock" is intended for that exact use case?

durron597

@MichaelT taocp? I thought that was tagged books

ratchet freak

@durron597 that has 7 questions

all of the discuss this thing in this book

gnat

@durron597 I recently retagged all knuth (yeah we had that tag) to taocp and cleaned all garbage tags from questions I edited. There were books, and education and other stuff like that

user114359

@gnat I was actually contemplating a meta post about that question. I am not sure what the ideal way to move forward is, though. Looking through the linked questions I see a lot of crap that could be deleted. Maybe nuke that whole nest of linked questions from orbit, write up a different version of that question with better answers, then lock it?

Ixrec

8:20 PM

I would be happy with that

I still say there is some value in the answers there, so I'd rather not just nuke the whole thing unconditionally

gnat

@Snowman "there may be a consensus" is what makes these questions troublesome. Asker is essentially guessing and trying their luck (what if there isn't a consensus?) That's why I prefer them to lay out what they want. This is guaranteed to work. If there is a consensus, it can be matched against their preferences. If there isn't, fine - they will be guided which way fits their wishes better

durron597

@gnat I know I voted to close that question just today

Too bad I only have 3600 here bleh

Stack Exchange

0

Q: Where do I ask opinionated technical questions regarding code?

Where should I ask questions about code-style and code-quality? I use Stackoverflow to ask programming questions that I believe have a correct technical answer. I've assumed that Programmers Exchange would be a place where opinions and real life experience could be shared to help me reach a...

discussion vote-to-close closed-questions programmers-se

Ixrec

@gnat imo there's an infinite regress there; only experts know if there is an expert consensus, and only experts know if the OP has given enough information that they can be guided either way, and so on...

user114359

@gnat I agree that the question is bad. But there are a few old gems of questions across the whole SE network that are technically "bad" questions or off-topic, but well-written and provide value. With 100+ linked questions that obviously gets asked a lot, and there are potentially useful answers.

user114359

8:25 PM

I think the answer is either "fix the question even if by writing a new one" or "nuke from orbit and mark future ones as 'primarily opinion-based'"

gnat

@Snowman that's an interesting twist. Idea to cleanup linked questions makes good sense. As for making "something better" instead, I am skeptical. Canonical questions are hard. I'd rather we cleanup this one to more or less respectable state and keep it (maybe lock)

durron597

I've VTCed so many "canonical book requests" in the last two days

user114359

@gnat I think that works as long as we clean up the question and its answers so they match. I still think we should delete the ones that link to it too.

user114359

That thought is not specific to this question, if a question is a dupe it should get its turn through the delete grinder eventually anyway.

gnat

@Snowman answers cleanup is absolutely needed there, I just re-checked

Ixrec

8:31 PM

anyone feel qualified to go at that new meta question? I think an answer from me wouldn't quite be optimal

gnat

@Ixrec yes, something like that. Infinite regress. That's why I prefer these questions to state what asker wants/prefers, what they aim for. Even if what they want is wrong, there is still a way out (as opposed to pointless tell me about Nikon and Canon)....

9

A: The "I Get It" Reputation Problem

This could happen if the question is of the kind where “Don't do it” is a valid answer. Per se, there's nothing criminal in questions like this - one asks when one doesn't know the answer, nothing wrong with this. Even more, questions like this can be useful - these can help someone else ponderin...

user55340

If a dup has more than, say 50, valid dups, one should endeavor to delete the poor signposts to get it to less than 50.

user55340

On not SO, that 50 might instead be 10.

gnat

@Ixrec I feel qualified, especially since I've got ready to use template. But I plan to wait until tomorrow, to let my votes recharge and DV bad answers before posting at meta. If anyone posts earlier than that, I won't object :)

3

Q: Can we please cleanup this popular question?

This question appears to be quite popular: Why are shortcuts like x += y considered good practice? Currently it has over 34K views, making it in top 250 all time (top 150 if we discard closed questions). As far as I can tell, it managed to attract couple answers of sub-par quality. Can we pl...

discussion specific-question answer-quality popular-questions

user114359

I am typing up a meta question now

gnat

8:40 PM

@Snowman don't forget to refer over 100 linked questions. 16K views per se may be not enough to invoke that Atwood's spell

user114359

@gnat I mentioned it. I am also self-answering and addressing it in my answer.

gnat

@Snowman "The Babies anxiously await the arrival of a playhouse that Nanny ordered for them..." :)

meanwhile, folks, I encourage all of you to thoroughly review answers in this question and vote as you see fit (and comment if you feel needed). It's CW, it won't even cost you rep. Our feedback will make it easier for moderators to clean it up

Ixrec

would it even be noticeable given all the existing votes?

user114359

0

Q: How would you clean up a question asking if you've written readable and easily maintainable code?

The topic of code quality comes up often enough that there is a wiki Q&A devoted to it: How would you know if you've written readable and easily maintainable code? There are currently 103 questions marked as a duplicate of that question. The question is very broad, and a poll asking for ideas....

discussion duplicate-questions

2

user114359

seewhatididthere?

gnat

8:50 PM

discussion of that "not quite dupe" at MSE: Where do I ask opinionated technical questions regarding code?

user55340

@Ixrec lots can hit -1 for 20ks with a few votes.

durron597

@gnat Can you stop marking things as duplicate of it until we've decide what we're going to do in @Snowman 's MPSE question

gnat

@durron597 sure, no problem. Will use primary opinion / too broad instead

durron597

@gnat Thanks

19

A: Allow moderators to reverse and/or nullify flag decisions

Sorry, I am declining this. Given the recent abolition of flag weight all complaints on meta have ceased. The decision of what to do with a flag is subjective; it is entirely possible and justifiable for some mods to decline certain flags while others will not. There is no objective measure o...

I hope I don't get flag banned on MSO soon. 2 helpful / 3 declined now, even though the most recent declined was overturned by a different moderator

gnat

83

A: Allow recovery from flag hellban

Update: Kevin Montrose makes it happen The hell-ban is no more! Long live the verbose, obnoxiously evident ban! Kevin has implemented (more or less) the system described below. Flaggers with a recent (past 7 days) flagging history consisting of at least 10 flags where >= 10% of flags were decli...

durron597

9:06 PM

@gnat Oh, I guess I'm okay since I have 6 flags on MSO total

Heck even you have only a small fraction of MSO flags compared to your SO flags.

gnat

@durron597 past 7 days + at least 10 flags + 25% declines = week of suspension (IIRC there are also manual mod suspensions but hope you didn't deserve these:)

@durron597 MSO is "too young". My MSE digits look more solid

durron597

@gnat Still, 865 compared to 4500

Got a ways to go to catch bluefeet though ;)

gnat

9:26 PM

@durron597 nah, I could easily pump it up if I wanted to. If I drop under 3K (with bounties) I'll get, like, 20-30 close-flags a week on duplicates. Maybe more :)

if memory serves it was exactly so when I once dropped there. Got many helpful flags. Until got back over 3K

Robert Harvey

Ah, flag weight. How we miss thee.

Not.

So I have several solutions in Visual Studio. Each references some of the others. From one solution, I can right-click, go to definition, and it will take me to the definition which, since this system is very interface-driven, will typically take me to a metadata interface of an interface in another solution. I then have to find the interface (wherever it is) in the other solution, and then there are tools in Resharper that will map out its usages.

But I feel like I'm taking the long way home here. Is there something obvious about my workflow that I'm doing wrong?

user41796

The other option is to include any linked / referenced project within the current solution so you can more easily find the definition

user41796

but that leads to bloated solutions which have their own problems

user41796

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario

Robert Harvey

Well, that's a bummer.

user41796

9:34 PM

So yes, I see problems. But I don't have any good ways to fix it

user41796

For a while, people were advocating one single solution and then use solution macros to enable / disable projects within the solution.

Robert Harvey

In truth, I've always felt like all of these projects should be in a single solution. Each solution has two or three projects, and there are about a dozen such solutions, so navigation is a real nightmare.

user41796

Honestly, I think that just creates more overhead and leaves you with the same problem

user41796

We used to run with a "one true solution" but it got to be problematic as the code base and supporting technologies continued to increase

Robert Harvey

I have here a harvester class. It inherits from a base class, and four interfaces, one of which inherits from another interface. All five interfaces are explicitly implemented in the harvester class.

I asked the architect why it's set up this way, and he said "to implement factories."

user41796

9:38 PM

> Because I like the diamond inheritance problem.

Ixrec

are any those interfaces called "Combine"?

Robert Harvey

Naturally, all of the interfaces are defined in a different solution.

So it's very difficult to see what's calling them.

@Ixrec I see what you did there.

Ixrec

more seriously, did he just say "to implement factories" and walk away or did he mention what he wanted the factories to factorize?

user41796

@Ixrec duh, more abstract factories

Ixrec

silly me, I thought this wasn't a Java solution

user41796

9:42 PM

secretly, all solutions are java solutions

Robert Harvey

OK, here's an example. The harvesters know when they can execute again, so there's an IDynamicActivity interface (which inherits from IExecutable activity and IDisposable) that contains one method: GetNextExecutionTime(Guid activityKey);

user55340

or is it "Java needs all the solutions?"

Robert Harvey

So apparently there's a Service Locator somewhere that spins up the harvester and returns it. Because it's explicitly implemented, you then cast it to IDynamicActivity and then call it, like this:

(myHarvester as IDynamicActivity).GetNextExecutionTime(whateverGuid);

The sad part is that I think this could have just been a static method on the class.

gnat

@GlenH7 even more secretly, all the Java solutions are Cobol inside

Ixrec

I was just about to ask why do that

user41796

9:48 PM

@gnat Shhhh! They haven't been ordained to the highest secret levels yet.

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec There's a bunch of stuff that works like this.

Ixrec

@gnat even more secretly, it's Fortran all the way down

(that's actually true where I work)

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec Actually, I think the harvester type is determined at run-time.

But still... Explicit interface implementation?

Ixrec

and not all harvesters are dynamic activities?

Robert Harvey

Well, some of them may not know when their next execution time is.

But in practice, I think they all implement the interface.

It just seems like so much boilerplate, for not much benefit.

Ixrec

9:51 PM

do you have a massive test suite you can run before and after deleting said boilerplate?

user41796

I'll give a pass on the IDisposable interface as that's really more of a decorator interface than anything else. But the other stuff seems a bit wonky

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec I think it's too deeply embedded in the architecture to remove it now.

Ixrec

=(

Robert Harvey

Anyway, the interface should have been named IKnowMyNextExecutionTime.

All these interfaces are nouns.

Bleaugh.

user41796

> ICanHazConvention?

Ixrec

9:55 PM

@RobertHarvey surely that change is a doable one?

Robert Harvey

Hard to say. I think the interface was originally intended for grander things.

Oh, yeah. IExecutableActivity has one method on it. Guess what it is?

Ixrec

execute()?

please be execute()

Robert Harvey

Yeah. The first one, not the second.

Although, to be fair, you have to call it with

(myObject as IExecutableActivity).Execute(activityKey);

[Captain Janeway's Shiny Red Reset Button™]

user41796

'MakeItSo()` would have been better then. :-D

Robert Harvey

Well, I'll put all of the interfaces in a Word file, and try to map it out by hand. We're in the new building now, and don't have a printer yet.

Every morning, we rub two sticks together to start a fire, so we can make coffee.

user41796

10:04 PM

@RobertHarvey Watch out for emissions / pollutant levels. They're fairly strict out your way. :-)

Robert Harvey

Did I say we rub sticks together? We actually start up our Obama solar collector every morning so that we can make coffee (except on cloudy days).

user41796

That's much more reasonable

Robert Harvey

Your tax dollars at work.

user41796

I incorporated myself and moved my corporate headquarters to a dingy 3rd world island in order to create complicated accounting models and avoid paying any taxes

gnat

4

Q: 2015 Community Moderator Election

The 2015 Community Moderator Election is now underway! Community moderator elections have three phases: Nomination phase Primary phase Election phase Most elections take between two and three weeks, but this depends on how many candidates there are. Please visit the official election page a...

discussion moderators election

^^^ at Workplace

Robert Harvey

10:28 PM

Method Overloading by return type:

public OverloadedSentenceBuilder : IFactory
{
    // ...

    // We get this if called from IFactory reference
    object IFactory.Create()
    {
        return “Satisfy IFactory.”;
    }

    // We get this if called from OverloadedSentenceBuilder reference
    public string Create()
    {
        return “Nicer! No objects.”;
    }
}

Ixrec

10:54 PM

@RobertHarvey that scares me

Robert Harvey

11:13 PM

@Ixrec It does seem like a bit of a hack.

If you're going to do that, you might as well write two methods having different names.

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