The Whiteboard

Jimmy Hoffa

00:00

also the extension methods aren't necessary for linq, they're just nicer than stuffing all those methods inside an ENumerable base class

@RobertHarvey the neat thing about understanding how abstractions like LINQ are fundamentally created is that you can create them from scratch when nobody else knows anything about it; for instance, don't know if you touched async/await much yet but there's a very old implementation somebody made that makes the same behaviours possible using only the yield keyword because the instructions in IL that yield take advantage of are all that were needed for C# to implement async/await

Robert Harvey

Makes sense.

Ack. Got logged out of chat, no idea why.

@JimmyHoffa Can Delphi interop with .NET?

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I believe I'd read as much

Delphi has lasted out in silence under guise of a benevolent owner in the shape of the company - one of the kindnesses it wrought it's users was well maintained interoperability with other languages I understand

Robert Harvey

I'm still planning on learning IronScheme. [sigh] I need a 36 hour day.

Jimmy Hoffa

the big thing that I hear delphi folks talk about loving more than anything is the data binding that they've had for ages which is basically the best out there

(haven't touched it, but that's the way they always sell it)

IronScheme?

do share?

If you want to fiddle with a LISP though just go poke Clojure. Light Table makes it easy and fun and it'll be the same as learning IronScheme I'm sure for all intents and purposes

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I asked about IronScheme a few years ago

user20683

00:11

11

Q: Is IronScheme complete enough or stable enough to be worth learning?

IronScheme is mentioned on Wikipedia as a successor to a failed project called IronLisp, bringing Lisp to CLR and .NET, the way Clojure does for the JVM. Does anyone have experience with this language? It looks fairly complete (99%) but I'm not sure how to judge whether it's worth my time to fidd...

Robert Harvey

IronScheme is the R6RS Scheme compiler that Leppie wrote on a heavily modified version of the DLR.

Jimmy Hoffa

In earlier times the .NET's "Any language you want with a shared library and shared interop!" sale was much more seriously taken and people attempted making lots of different things, some were well received, most were largely ignored, but all of them disappeared as .NET rapidly became synonymous with C# and nobody anywhere gave it any mind for other languages except the occasional "We have a schlock of VB programmers already, let's just go with VB.NET so we can keep them productive"

@RobertHarvey Ok that does sound effing cool.

Robert Harvey

IronPython uses the official DLR.

Jimmy Hoffa

Neat, but nobody writes IronPython.

user20683

That was way back when I had a working windows box

Robert Harvey

00:13

Leppie claims that he gets better performance than IronPython does.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I'd work in JScript.NET before any of those

Robert Harvey

You mean TypeScript don't you? :P

Jimmy Hoffa

Nope

@RobertHarvey JScript.NET -> JavaScript(mostly) that compiles to CIL.

Robert Harvey

Really. That does sound interesting.

Jimmy Hoffa

go into your visual studio and create a new project and under other languages you'll find JScript.NET

It's been around since the beginning

a proper MS created .NET language, has the dynamicism of JavaScript while compiling to the CIL before the DLR even existed

Robert Harvey

00:15

And probably nobody uses it.

Which means it eventually dies on the vine.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey yeah but it works well and is really pretty cool. It's for weird reasons been maintained all these years kept up to date silently

I feel like MS must have some engineer who just maintains it as his darling and is good enough to actually keep it modern

because you're right, nobody uses it.

Robert Harvey

20 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

though I believe they're trying to make the metro API available to JavaScript as well so you can do desktop apps directly in that

Jimmy Hoffa

Would be a great sys-admin tool scripting language which was kind of the original intent - get the old jscript that people used to use onto .NET

Robert Harvey

I think those folks went to PowerShell.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey This is different, this is more of them actually executing your outright JavaScript as in a browser but giving it facilities like hwo a browser has the DOM, they give the JavaScript a hosting environment that has IO capabilities for desktop apps, while allowing your whole app to be javascript/HTML5 on desktop

@RobertHarvey They did, but I would take JScript.NET over that. I'm truly not impressed with powershell, it's klunky as shit

Robert Harvey

00:18

Does JScript have a REPL?

Jimmy Hoffa

Have you tried writing any powershell scripts? Sure it's powerful because you have the .NET runtime at your fingertips but it sucks

@RobertHarvey not sure

Robert Harvey

I'm just not sure they had to invent Yet Another Programming Language for The New Batch File.

user20683

einaregilsson.com/jscript-repl

user20683

There isn't a built in one but this guy built one.

Robert Harvey

Yep. Just a wrapper around eval. JScript is one of the go-to solutions for those folks who need eval in C# or VB.

Hmm, apparently JScript is used on ASP.NET servers.

And the new (extended) features in JScript 10 sound suspiciously like TypeScript.

Jimmy Hoffa

00:30

They've silently maintained it very well through the years.

user55340

03:01

22

Q: How do you run JavaScript script through the Terminal?

For instance, if you were to run a Python script you would type python filename.py or if you wanted to run a C program make filename then ./ filename. How do you do this with .js files?

javascript terminal

gnat

05:51

name that strikes back

0

Q: "Name that thing" questions

I'm a repeat offender of asking "Name that thing" questions. The most recent one is here > Is there a name for this pattern / object?. Where can I ask this kind of question if not here? PS - I strongly feel that well formed questions of this format, with clear criteria should be permitted here....

discussion

Yannis Rizos

12:48

19

Q: What is a 'friendly' way to let managers know that having good developers is a privilege?

I work for a small company, where we recently had a change of managers. The new manager has no experience managing developers, and the old manager has moved into a development role to fill in gaps left by senior developers leaving the company and being unable to find replacements. I was recently...

software-industry management time-management

This started out on Programmers. It got a downvote and no comments, and was self deleted. It's a decent question, and I think it deserved a friendly comment pointing to the Workplace (or at least explaining why it won't work for us).

enderland

14:26

16 hours ago, by MichaelT

@AshleyNunn Oh @enderland what say the workplace?

76

Q: How can I determine a reasonable salary to ask for?

I'm looking for a comprehensive answer to this question, not short answers that just tell me one piece of the equation. The ideal answer should include: How can I determine the average salary rate for my position? What statistics affect the sort of salary I can ask for? (location, skillset, ex...

salary

plus this should be required reading in the engineering/software world - kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation

Ampt

14:42

0

Q: Continuous Delivery: Kanban, SCRUM, or other?

I was wondering if there was an SDLC (software development lifecycle) or methodology (Kanban, SCRUM, waterfall, otherwise, etc.) that was particularly well-suited for continuous delivery systems, and why? I'm sure each methodology has pros/cons that make it suited for certain components of CD, b...

agile scrum sdlc kanban continuous-delivery

Thomas Owens

@Ampt I'm assuming that's a picture that I can't see at work.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens No, its SFW.

its the "You're gonna have a bad time" meme

Thomas Owens

@Ampt I mean the web filter blocks it anyway.

It's gotten a little overzealous recently.

enderland

I had adblocker blockign images here for a while

(in chat)

Ampt

Title: You're gonna have a bad time
Upper: If you think waterfall gives you continuous delivery
Bottom: You're gonna have a bad time

Thomas Owens

14:50

Ah, yeah. I thought about commenting about that, but didn't.

Speaking of beer, they are brewing a Trappist ale in Massachusetts now

Ampt

We had a process class that was done entirely in waterfall (PSP) and it made me want to rip my eyes out.

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Waterfall is really great for education.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens you mean educating me not to use it?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt No, I mean teaching the types of activities that go into developing a project. The first Software Engineering course when I was in school (and it still is this way) is very waterfall, because it really provides nice modules to have discussions and education.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens this was my third year in, so it was far from my first class

may have been my least favorite class though.

Thomas Owens

14:54

We had a course that kind of touched on PSP, but it was very little. It was more about personal development and the individual side of work in software engineering in general.

Everything else was team-based.

Ampt

That was where our program head wanted it to go

until our industry advisory committee told him that no one used PSP anymore and that he was about 10 years behind everyone else

Thomas Owens

PSP is interesting, academically. But I struggle to find usefulness professionally. The overall performance of the team is far more important than the individuals, especially with collaborative development activities like pair programming.

Ampt

PSP is great if you need your effort in overhead to be greater than your effort in actually being productive

AKA if you're a government contractor.

Thomas Owens

@Ampt As a software process engineer for a major defense contractor, no.

Just no.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens Woah woah woah, slow down there buddy. If you keep this level of productivity up, you're gonna make everyone else look bad.

Thomas Owens

14:59

That's pretty much my goal.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens We don't take kindly to those that don't take 15 coffee breaks a day round these parts

honestly though, thank you for not doing that. I cry a little every time I hear about a defense contractor who does that because I see the little dollar bills walking out of my wallet

user55340

@YannisRizos (not the downvoter) - personally I prefer not saying that something would be better on another site and instead flag for migration if I think it would be better somewhere else. The reasoning is that I don't want the OP to take my advice, go to the other site, repost, and get closed there too - thats a very bad experience.

2

Thomas Owens

Things have changed so much in the defense industry in the past 2-3 years, it's insane. Things that used to be common practice will now cause you to lose bids.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens that's really good to hear. Hopefully things are changing for the better?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt I think so, yes. Some old timers are finding it difficult to adapt. A big example is openness between agencies and/or contractors. The government wants more options without vendor lock-in, so they are promoting more "open" (loosely, since they are only open to those who need to know) standards.

Common sense things, where competition actually comes down to the engineering and manufacturing floors, and the skills you have in your company. Not how hard the program office can drive people to work.

user55340

15:05

@ThomasOwens picascii.com the color one gives you something that is readable if you know what it says... if you want to see the image too.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens This is very cool to hear

user55340

@Ampt There are some oddities in how things are billed that make it seem out of proportion when its really just shuffling $ from one spot to another. There are also some times when it needs to work a certain way that isn't intuitive for anyone, say... not standing at 30 degrees on a submarine.

user55340

Things like... "how do you make a toilet that doesn't overflow in unpleasant ways for a rapid ascent?" This actually takes some serious thought... and the parts for doing this aren't always a major production run that you can get at your local former employer for cheap.

user55340

Part of the nature of the beast (and where the engineering comes into play (as I understand it)) is that things run over. Estimations are hard and we're optimistic that we can do it. With software products we may be working with things that, at the upper end, are in the $1M range...

user55340

When you get to the military: s/M/B/

user55340

15:13

So a 10% missestimation on a $50k project is $5k... a $5B project is $500M... and that needs to be somewhere. That's not something you can just write off.

Mike S.

can someone suggest a resource for technical design brainstorming? i'm building a reporting dashboard in php w/ mysql. don't think i want to use stored procedures for queries b/c the db might be changed. i just want to have parameterized queries available for the dashboard UI designer. not sure how to approach this for a solution.

user55340

(and its also part of the real cost of the project...) Engineering practices work at minimizing that risk of overages.

user55340

@MikeS. If the DB changes, wouldn't you need to change the queries too, anyways? Or do you mean "mysql -> oracle" as a db change?

user20683

I wanted to try one of the hard problems on Project Euler, the more I think about this problem, the more my brain wants to cry.

user55340

That said, you likely want a database agnostic interface through an orm.

user55340

15:16

270

Q: Good PHP ORM Library?

Is there a good object-relational-mapping library for PHP? I know of PDO/ADO, but they seem to only provide abstraction of differences between database vendors not an actual mapping between the domain model and the relational model. I'm looking for a PHP library that functions similarly to the ...

php database orm

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT I don't have much love for migration comments either, but adding something like "Please don't re-post this, I've already flagged it for migration and if the moderators agree it's suitable for Whatever.SE, it will be moved automatically." could work.

Mike S.

i don't think so. could be wrong. @MichaelT that may be what i'm looking for. the whole "well, we might want a different db" thing has my knickers in a twist.

Yannis Rizos

That said, my main concern is that no one bothered explaining why the question didn't fit. I'm all for silent downvotes on low effort crap, but this wasn't.

user41796

@YannisRizos Is that a word-for-word repost of what was asked on main?

user55340

It certainly wans't and one doesn't find examples of it being closed here easily... so its certainly something that could be an honest mistake (not trying to get around a SO question ban and ignoring the FAQ).

Mike S.

15:19

I'm using PDO now which helps with many different issues like abstraction and preventing sql injection stuff.

user55340

@MikeS. In the Java world, one often sees hibernate. You tell it what type of database is behind it and it forms the appropriate queries for that dialect of sql.

user55340

Sometimes you still need to break out to raw sql when there's something it doesn't quite know/understand (this is a hierarchal data structure and oracle has connect by prior, lets use that), but 95% of the time it works just fine.

Mike S.

that's cool. only java i know is in my cup on the desk. :P

user55340

Hibernate (Java)

Hibernate ORM (Hibernate in short) is an object-relational mapping library for the Java language, providing a framework for mapping an object-oriented domain model to a traditional relational database. Hibernate solves object-relational impedance mismatch problems by replacing direct persistence-related database accesses with high-level object handling functions. Hibernate is free software that is distributed under the GNU Lesser General Public License. Hibernate's primary feature is mapping from Java classes to database tables (and from Java data types to SQL data types). Hibernate al...

Ampt

@MikeS. do you use C# at all?

Mike S.

15:21

@Ampt no, maining php and javascript

user55340

(and reading that... not the most helpful of wikipedia pages)

Mike S.

err, mainly

Ampt

@MikeS. Javascript-> Java isn't terrible

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 The WP question? Yes, it was reposted verbatim.

user55340

76

Q: PHP ORMs: Doctrine vs. Propel

I'm starting a new project with symfony which is readily integrated with Doctrine and Propel, but I of course need to make a choice.... I was wondering if more experienced people out there have general pros and/or cons for going with either of these two? Thanks a lot. EDIT: Thanks for the all t...

php orm symfony1 doctrine propel

user55340

15:22

<?php
// Propel
$c = new Criteria();
$c->add(ExamplePeer::ID, 20);
$items = ExamplePeer::doSelectJoinFoobar($c);

// Doctrine
$items = Doctrine_Query::create()
       ->from('Example e')
       ->leftJoin('e.Foobar')
       ->where('e.id = ?', 20)
       ->execute();
?>

Mike S.

thanks for the pointers. was kinda flailing around saying wtf wtf. lolol. now i have some reading to do. thx

user55340

The key thing to look for is "Object Relational Mapping" - the ORM. Maps an object to a relational database for you.

user55340

The page for doctrine:

user55340

Doctrine (PHP)

The Doctrine Project (or Doctrine) is a set of PHP libraries primarily focused on providing persistence services and related functionality. Its prize projects are an Object Relational Mapper (ORM) and the Database Abstraction Layer it is built on top of. One of Doctrine's key features is the option to write database queries in a proprietary object oriented SQL dialect called Doctrine Query Language (DQL). Usage demonstration Entities in Doctrine 2 are lightweight PHP Objects that contain persistable properties. A persistable property is an instance variable of the entity that is saved i...

user41796

@YannisRizos I probably would have just VTC but not down voted that one then. I wouldn't have left a comment as it's right on the edge of digressing into a whinge-fest via comments. "HR" type questions seem to run a high risk of non-constructive commentary when closing

Mike S.

15:24

yes. i forgot about orms. i've been away from php for quite a few months. so this is a good refresher

user41796

So that's my pathetic justification for why I wouldn't have commented on that one. My experience has been that trying to explain why it doesn't fit ends up being a waste of time.

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 I know the feeling.

user41796

It's wishy-washy, but after the bazillionth new user starts whinging about how they're entitled to an answer because they have a problem! you just kind of stop getting involved with the explanation bit.

user55340

@YannisRizos you know, if you gave @GlenH7 a diamond, he could do the non-standard migrations rather than just closing.

user41796

@MichaelT I think calling that bluff is effective only when Oded or Anna are in the room. :-)

user41796

15:27

But if I had a diamond, then we'd have at least two trolls as mods. Think of the epic battles that could result...

user55340

Maybe... though Yannis might have some sway with making you a depute mod on Politics or something. ;-)

user55340

@GlenH7 In the left corner, we have @GlenH7 , new mod untrested but lots of reviews. In the right corner, we have Community, old and weathered and not really all there, but very persistent at deleting those questions. Who will win?!

user55340

(oh, you mean you and Yannis?)

user41796

@MichaelT I don't have the patience to mod a site like that. Over my career, I have worked with too many coworkers locked into particular mindsets. Can't say I have a lot of patience for that approach.

user41796

@MichaelT refer back to yesterday afternoon's conversation. :-)

Yannis Rizos

15:29

@GlenH7 You don't need patience to mod ProgSE, only rage.

user41796

@YannisRizos I can do that one!

user55340

@YannisRizos and haskell?

user41796

Flick! on to the next one. Flick! on to the next. Flick! okay, back to work.

user55340

(@MikeS. btw, lots of inside jokes flying around here... don't worry if you feel like you're missing something)

user41796

@MichaelT that's 'cause we're all missing something. And did you notice @jozefg entered the room just as you mentioned Haskell?

Ampt

15:31

@MichaelT no, tequila. Everyone knows that.

Yannis Rizos

I wonder if we'll have an election soon. Technically, elections happen when mods or the community ask for them, but... no one asked for the last one, it just happened.

jozefg

@GlenH7 I can sense it. It's like the bat signal except with more lambdas

user41796

@YannisRizos I thought Dynamic indirectly kickstarted the last one?

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 Ah, yes, completely forgot about that.

user41796

@YannisRizos And I'm having difficulty finding that question on meta. Perhaps just as well as it could be misread.

Yannis Rizos

15:34

4

Q: Does the community think we should have another Moderator Election this year?

Are we going to have another Community Moderator Election for 2013? It seems like we have one around this time every year. Does the community/mods think we need another mod? I, personally, think that (most) mods are doing an outstanding job at what they have to do, but all of our mods should be...

discussion moderators election

user20683

I also helped with that by asking questions about why JoshK was never around.

user41796

@WorldEngineer oh, was that you? I thought Dynamic had asked that. Color me forgetful.

user20683

@GlenH7 Dynamic asked the meta question. I think I asked in chat

user41796

@Walter Personally, I believe that one more mod should be added, as one of the current mods is very inactive. Depending on how this post goes, I may bring that up. — Dynamic Dec 26 '12 at 17:54

user41796

That's what I was looking for.

user20683

15:39

Could sworn I said something about it

user20683

huh

user41796

@WorldEngineer nah, just pin all the blame on others. Dodge all responsibility at all costs... :-)

Yannis Rizos

9

A: The review system suggested something was probably spam, what should I do when I see this?

We recently strengthened spam protection in the area of suggested edits. As multiple spam networks tend to target the same seemingly innocuous posts, we've started keeping track of how many spam edits any given post receives over a period of time, and now deal a severely harsh penalty to those t...

This is cool.

user41796

@YannisRizos I got one of those suggestions yesterday too. The answer wasn't spam (no link, no advert) but it was a bunch of gibberish. Likely a validation run on a spam bot.

user55340

@YannisRizos You should search for the soda conversation.

Yannis Rizos

15:46

@MichaelT Huh?

user55340

(realizing that its almost all in jest...)

Ampt

Anyone have any experience with unions in C?

user55340

Oct 17 '13 at 19:49, by GlenH7

Living in Milwaukee really changed my point of view for root beer

user55340

The timing of the edits to the "Oh hi" message.

user41796

@Ampt a bit

Ampt

15:49

@GlenH7 I've got a 200 line union with unions inside of unions with structs in side of those...

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT I wonder if he's referring to Sprecher... @GlenH7?

Ampt

is it just for naming sake?

user41796

@Ampt fo' schizzle? blech.

Ampt

I don't get the point of the nested unions though. can't you put them all at the same level?

@GlenH7 They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

user41796

@ThomasOwens Sprecher is amazing root beer. I love all of their carbonated beverages (both alcholic and non-alcoholic)

user41796

15:50

@Ampt I would nest only if I had smaller segments within the broader "object" that could be swapped for each other.

user41796

Think of unions as very primitive interfaces.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 When I was in school, the bar across the street had Sprecher root beer on tap. Honestly, I had no complaints going there when I couldn't drink beer because I knew they had Sprecher.

user55340

@ThomasOwens there a few Sprecher restaurants in the WI area.

Ampt

@GlenH7 that's not doing anything though. a union inside of a union says "Ok, it can be ANY of these things, one of which is a union, in which case it can be ANY of one of the things in there"

user55340

(one in Madison, one in Wisconsin Dells)

Ampt

15:51

you gain nothing by nesting it from what I can tell..

user41796

@MichaelT never knew of those. That could almost be road-trip justification

Thomas Owens

Originally being from upstate NY, I do have to say that Saranac makes good sodas, too.

Root beer, ginger beer, and orange cream

user55340

The brewery is listed as "Glendale" (draw a line from Tomah south, and Mauston West - the intersection is where its at)

user41796

@Ampt well, it's potentially a hint to future developers. If I had a 100 var long union, and I had sub-unions of say 10 or 15 vars within there, I'm giving you a hint (future developer) of what I was trying to do.

user41796

Not trying to justify the approach, as it sounds fugly. But I could see why someone would do that. Especially in an embedded arena where space is tight

user55340

15:53

Though.. hm... I'm going with "google maps messed up" its on Glendale Avenue in Milwaukee?

user41796

@ThomasOwens sprecher cream sodas are really good as well

user55340

(ok, google is confused)

Thomas Owens

OK. Time to go to a meeting where they tell us how to properly dispose of technical and proprietary data. You know, in the shred bins and not trash or recycle bins. :|

user41796

@ThomasOwens You'd be amazed at how often people don't think about those things though

user41796

Enjoy the reminders...

JohnP

15:55

area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/63543/…

In case anyone here is a model builder.

user55340

goo.gl/maps/rg3e3 vs google.com/#q=sprecher+brewery (click link for glendale)

user55340

@JohnP If you don't refer it, it oneboxes nicely...

user55340

11

Model Hobbyist

Proposed Q&A site for all hobbyists interested in model building, including cars, motorcycles, war vessels, rocketry, planes and other replica kits, as well as scratchbuilding and painting/finishing techniques.

Currently in definition.

user55340

(and here I thought it was database modeling... ;-)

JohnP

oh, cheers.

Ampt

15:59

@GlenH7 It's... interesting...

It's just got so much going on that it's hard to follow

user41796

@Ampt - I could see where you had packets A, B, and C and for ease of transmission (or whatever), they all shared the same layout via union. Not sure it's the first approach I would have picked, but that presumes that a) time and b) experience were available when it was designed.

user41796

@Ampt that's the downside of the approach - serious tradeoff on ability to maintain. It may have met space / performance requirements at the cost of only gurus and previously-charred developers can touch it.

Ampt

@GlenH7 that's exactly what we are doing. At the lowest level a CAN message is 8 data bytes and some other stuff. but those 8 bytes could be interpretted as A, B or C

the dev who made this is gone lol

user41796

@Ampt It's the more culturally acceptable version of seppuku.

Ampt

@GlenH7 who said it wasn't seppuku?

Jimmy Hoffa

16:02

Yay! I get to write non-stop boiler-plate integration tests for a while! Wee... At least it's mindless, time to grab my headphones

I do wish I had more music on hand

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Einstein on the Beach over here

user41796

@Ampt well, it may drive you there too...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt ? You turning bright red or something?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa He's having an WTF-per-minute moment at work.

Ampt

Einstein on the Beach

Einstein on the Beach is an opera in four acts (framed and connected by five "knee plays" or intermezzos), composed by Philip Glass and directed by theatrical producer Robert Wilson. The opera eschews traditional narrative in favor of a formalist approach based on structured spaces laid out by Wilson in a series of storyboards. The music was written "in the spring, summer and fall of 1975." Glass recounts the collaborative process: "I put [Wilson’s notebook of sketches] on the piano and composed each section like a portrait of the drawing before me. The score was begun in the spring of 19...

Philip Glass is one of my favorite composers

Jimmy Hoffa

16:04

OHH you mean music

Ampt

@GlenH7 Also yes

Jimmy Hoffa

I don't typically do classical at work... Iduno, classical is nice but I prefer it during more quiet peaceful times, I'll turn it on when I'm driving in the mountains for instance, there's nothing particularly peaceful about daily desk-time drudgery

user41796

@Ampt This is how I partially dealt with that this AM.

user41796

2

A: Creating REST-ful web-services without adhering to the REST principles

When I summarize your question as: Should I blindly follow a design approach even though it doesn't provide me any benefit? My only justification is an anticipated, future event that may not ever occur or be an issue. The answer becomes startling clear - No. One of REST's values is in ma...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I would definitely not classify this as classical

it's.... very interesting

user41796

16:07

@JimmyHoffa go for some drum & bass then... That'll keep things moving.

Ampt

very modern

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Yeah I do such at the desk

Shpongle

Shpongle is an English psychedelic music project formed in 1996. The group includes Simon Posford (aka Hallucinogen) and Raja Ram (one third of The Infinity Project). The duo are considered to be one of the progenitors of the psybient genre - a genre combining world music with psychedelic trance and ambient. Their musical style combines traditional music from all over the globe and vocals with contemporary western synthesizer-based psychedelic music. When asked to describe Shpongle's music, Posford has responded that it is "like nothing you've ever heard before." Shpongle's first track,...

Ampt

►

user41796

@Ampt It's okay, you can call it old since it was written before you were born. ;-)

user20683

@Ampt Unions within unions typically get a horrendously unsafe version of polymorphism.

Ampt

16:08

@GlenH7 no, seriously. give it a listen. It isn't for everyone but it isn't classical

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I may give that a try today. Need something a bit different.

user20683

it's a way of organizing things such that the bits get packed in the right order

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 It's different, very colorful music.

user41796

@WorldEngineer I think "horrendously unsafe" doesn't quite capture the risks involved...

user41796

hundred line long unions with nested unions and structs is a ticking time bomb

Ampt

16:10

@GlenH7 I think I figured it out. I didn't have to modify the structure at all, just put in some pre-processor stuff to flip some byte orders

user20683

if you do it wrong, you wind up with tons of wasted space

Ampt

@WorldEngineer It's a way of organizing this so bits get packed in the same space

user20683

@Ampt That's a union, a union of unions is gonna have the packing issue

user20683

unions containing chars for instance, need to go at the end

Ampt

@WorldEngineer pretty sure union of a union is the same as a perfectly flat union

unions are OR operators, and nested ORs are still flat

unless I'm interpreting this wrong..

Jimmy Hoffa

16:13

Moral of the story, C programmers are scary.

user20683

@Ampt Bear in mind that I come at this from an embedded background

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I'm the monster under your bed

@WorldEngineer yeah that's where I'm at now

a union of a union doesn't take any more space

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt You're still pre-junior, you're not even a programmer yet, more less a C programmer.

Ampt

ok, lets just reason this out

Jimmy Hoffa

Besides, you're going to be a back-end enterprise dev like @MichaelT and I. I can already see it in your future.

Ampt

16:15

@JimmyHoffa That's just like, your opinion, man

union {
    struct A;
    union {
        struct B;
        struct C;
    } nameBoth;
} nameAll

so it could be A, B or C, which all exist in the same spot in memory, right?

user55340

My C is very rusty, but I believe that is correct.

user41796

@Ampt Yes, I believe that all packs down together as you suggest.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa It's a new field for me. I'm excited to see what kind of challenges I get to face, but I don't think that you can call me not a programmer simply because I haven't graduated.

user41796

But there is a semantic hint with B and C being similar in context and A is supposed to represent something else

user41796

@Ampt He's jealous because he can make sense of Haskell voodoo-ness but unions scare the crap out of him

Ampt

16:18

@GlenH7 Yeah because you would have to access that via nameAll.nameBoth.C

user55340

Its a namespacing of sorts in a language that doesn't have them.

user41796

@Ampt So it's a hint that packet C (or B) can only occur in special situations.

user20683

@Ampt Okay, yeah, I was confused as to what you were describing

user41796

@WorldEngineer it's still ridiculously dangerous... :-)

Ampt

@WorldEngineer alright, sweet. Thanks :D

Jimmy Hoffa

16:19

@Ampt Neener neener, it's not even 930 and I already got you to take me seriously; Troll: 1, World: who cares

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Go put on your music you old fart.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa And I'll note you didn't respond to my snipe. :-D

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I'm on a roll this morning

user41796

new comers must find some of this banter to be a bit off-putting.

Ampt

@GlenH7 only if you take you two seriously

At least @MichaelT is helpful

user41796

16:21

@Ampt someone has to keep things in order...

user55340

snicker

user55340

I'm just better at trolling than @GlenH7 (because I'm believable)

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yeah - have you actually tried following any of @MichaelT's "help" before? :O

user55340

@JimmyHoffa do you really regret learning some perl?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT If it were possible for me to have learned it I might, luckily I escaped unscathed thanks to the pure nonsense flood I found on every page that tried to teach anything of it.

  #! /usr/local/bin/perl -w

        use Lingua::Romana::Perligata;

        adnota Illud Cribrum Eratothenis

        maximum tum val inquementum tum biguttam tum stadium egresso scribe.
        vestibulo perlegementum da meo maximo .
        maximum tum novumversum egresso scribe.
        da II tum maximum conscribementa meis listis.
        dum damentum nexto listis decapitamentum fac sic
               lista sic hoc tum nextum recidementum cis vannementa da listis.
               next tum biguttam tum stadium tum nextum tum novumversum

o yeah, thanks Perl peoples, I'm sure this is an appropriate way to spread your language, make it writable in dead languages

BEFOREHAND: close door, each window & exit; wait until time.
    open spellbook, study, read (scan, select, tell us);
write it, print the hex while each watches,
    reverse its length, write again;
    kill spiders, pop them, chop, split, kill them.
        unlink arms, shift, wait & listen (listening, wait),
sort the flock (then, warn the "goats" & kill the "sheep");
    kill them, dump qualms, shift moralities,
    values aside, each one;
        die sheep! die to reverse the system
        you accept (reject, respect);

Oh no wait that helps, now I understand perl: It's just a jabberwocky

user41796

16:27

@JimmyHoffa Oh no wait that helps, now I understand Haskell: It's just a jabberwocky

user55340

@JimmyHoffa At least you didn't find the klingon one.

user55340

    use Lingua::tlhInganHol::yIghun;

    <<'u' nuqneH!\n>> tIghItlh!

    {
            wa' yIQong!
            Dotlh 'oH yIHoH yInob
                    qoj <mIw Sambe'> 'oH yIHegh jay'!
            <Qapla'!\n> yIghItlh!
    } jaghmey tIqel!

user20683

That looks like "Hello World"

user41796

@WorldEngineer FWIW, I would put "fluent in Klingon" on the resume just because it will catch the eye of other geeks.

user55340

@WorldEngineer best part is the diagnostics

user20683

16:29

@GlenH7 I saw Qapla! and guessed.

user41796

@WorldEngineer no easter eggs on the resume for you then

user55340

@WorldEngineer according to Bing (they've got a kli - en translation engine) yIghItlh means "write it down" so likely.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 ...easter eggs.... this is actually an interesting idea, you could do some of those ultra-tiny-text things or other such where the curious mind (read: not the HR people) will have to zoom in on it to see what it says

little black splotch in the corner of a page, I know anytime i see one of those I have to select it to see if it's text, then copy-paste it to notepad to see what it says

enderland

@JohnP I just spent $80 on modeling supplies over the past weekend...

Ampt

@GlenH7 until the hiring manager interviews you in klingon.

user41796

16:43

@Ampt Just gotta be sure you can respond. The fact that I spoke French to a degree helped land a job offer I had once received.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland I'm still mad this was migrated to TW forcing me to gather TW rep...

user55340

@GlenH7 ahh, Canada.

Jimmy Hoffa

37

A: Is it ethical to read programming books on the clock?

It's unethical to act against the express request of your employer; so if they told you not to, the answer would be no it's not ethical. Outside of that however, I would absolutely say yes. Like you said, sharpening the saw 'n such is a necessity, and it's unethical for a company to expect you to...

@MichaelT No, I think the correct phrasing is "Ohh Canada"

user41796

@MichaelT nah, that one happened to be Milwaukee. Close, but not close enough, eh?

user55340

logEn.warn("oh no...");
logFr.warn("Zut allors!"); // all log files must be bi-lingual

Jimmy Hoffa

16:45

logEn.Error("Error!");
logHaskell.Error("Bottom");

it's technically bilingual :o

user20683

@JimmyHoffa The correct phrasing is "Ehh, Canada".

user55340

How do you spell "canada" (this joke works better spoken)... "C 'eh N 'eh D 'eh"

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer "Ehh, Canada! Let's play some Hockey Ehh! Ya Hoser!" I think their national anthem's something like that

user55340

Though my funniest Canadian experience was a .CA and .AU talking about cisco products... and the faces exchanged.

user55340

(Canadians pronounce 'router' with an 'oo' as in 'goose' rather than an 'ow' as in 'ouch'. So its 'rooter'... while 'root' is something mildly vulgar down under)

Jimmy Hoffa

16:49

ok that is pretty funny

Ampt

Rooter? I hardly knew her!

user55340

(to make the matter worse, the stereotype of polite and apologetic was completely there too after this was all explained what was being understood by the .AU)

user41796

@MichaelT At which point the .AU is laughing his arse off.

user55340

yep. It was all very amusing after the fact... but during that meeting the face of "is he saying what I think he's saying..."

user41796

I've known some network folk with very salty language... Sometimes it's the only appropriate way to explain things

user55340

17:02

And thus the amusing mismatch... what would be salty language coming from a polite Canadian who doesn't realize it was being interrupted as such. "You just plug your jack into the back of the rooter..." - read that both ways.

user41796

@MichaelT snicker

gnat

wonder if anything is wrong with this answer? First DV made me think it's routine revenge but now there's a second one. Could it be that answer somehow sucks? (as an answerer I find it hard to find out myself due to bias)...

-1

A: proposed algorithm and representation of an algorithm

This is discussed in a book Computer Science: An Overview (11th Edition) by J. Glenn Brookshear, in Chapter 5 Algorithms. To start with, author formally defines algorithm as follows: An algorithm is an ordered set of unambiguous, executable steps that defines a terminating process Further d...

user55340

@gnat I have no clue why that would be downvoted.

user41796

@gnat About the only thing I can think of is that it is a lot of quoting but not a lot of original content from you. But it's totally acceptable to provide an external reference as an answer when you include the relevant content.

user41796

have a sympathy upvote. Okay, it was a useful answer as well. But I'll let you dwell on the sympathy aspect. :-)

Ampt

17:07

Just realized its snowing

Also just realized that it isn't spring yet :(

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt try harder.

JohnP

@enderland Yeah, I got sniped at the last minute on a vintage Saturn V Estes rocket that I wanted...my original got lost in a crosswind during recovery. :(

gnat

@MichaelT thanks! I feel better ;) @GlenH7 I intentionally decided to make lots of quoting after I figured that question is per se based / derived from that book. In cases like this, I prefer to abstain of own research and stick within the reference material. It's 3rd or maybe 4th answer of that kind I do here. Not very comfortable with it myself, but bend to rules of the game

user41796

@Ampt Sorry, I thought about moving my blower back to the shed this weekend. Ergo, I made it snow.

JohnP

It's going to be 70 here today, what is this "snow" you speak of?

gnat

17:10

and while quoting I found that author makes couple good points, which lowered my discomfort :)

JohnP

(Although I can't complain complete ignorance, I grew up in Colorado)

user41796

@gnat I think there's a lot of value in citing resources other than wikipedia when they specifically address a question.

gnat

@GlenH7 well when I see a hit statement I don't hesitate to quote, you know :)

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." (Rich Cook) — gnat 20 hours ago

we spoke about it already :)

user55340

Many years ago... I think it was October '01, my team at Netapp was going to Reno for an outing. We had a small rented corporate shuttle type thing with really nice interior. Anyways, we're driving over the Sierras to get form SF to Reno... and its snowing.

user41796

I recall something along those lines...

JohnP

17:13

Saw a Volkswagon Beetle with a license plate that said "Feature" (Featur) yesterday. I laughed.

2

user55340

The Indian in the group had never seen snow before and went up to the front of the shuttle and was looking out the window with wide eyed amazement. Rather amusing for me, a wisconsonite. We stop at a rest stop and he gets out and picks up some snow... then throws it down and goes back into the shuttle looking at his hands.

user55340

He then loudly exclaimed "Snow is cold!" with a thick indian accent.

user41796

@MichaelT yes, yes it is. My kids were philosophizing the other day about what snow would be like if it were warm or hot.

user55340

@GlenH7 The thing they don't apparently realize is that sometimes it hotter in the midwest than in the typical area... and humid. Now, a dry heat is something to experience.

user20683

@GlenH7 Volcanic Ash

user20683

17:15

@MichaelT I spent a summer in Chico, CA. 115 degree highs with a hot, dry wind. It was like an oven.

user41796

@MichaelT a humid baking is way different than a dry baking. I've suffered through both many times. :-)

enderland

@JimmyHoffa which one? I think we got a lot of migrations today

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT A fellow from Cameroon told me a story of when he first came here, sent here for college, and there were so many things totally amazing to him, he said when he went back home afterwards for the first time the tribal elders convened as they do with any traveler returning and made him share his stories to tell them of the foreign lands, he said he tried explaining snow because that was the most foreign and baffling thing to him- and they couldn't understand it at all

he said he explained it as like flour falling from the sky blanketing everything but wet and cold

They thought he was making it up

@enderland I posted it, it's an old migration, but I occasionally get rep still from it and it hurts every time

user41796

@JimmyHoffa In a way, he was...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Have some more imaginary points...

user55340

17:23

And to think you could have had nearly 400 rep here if it wasn't migrated...

Jimmy Hoffa

Very interesting fellow... he ended up getting a PhD in philosophy with a focus on politics from Boston College, was a professor their for a while and now is a professor out here in Boulder

enderland

it's ok, we're ridin' the hot questions list today

user41796

@MichaelT brilliant point. Have some more rep, Jimmy.

enderland

my answer doesn't have enough votes and wasn't early enough to really benefit :(

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 @MichaelT I hate you both.

I should go make a bunch of edits to turn that answer CW so I can relinquish myself of dirty dirty TW rep

user55340

17:24

@enderland both former P.SE questions

user41796

@enderland I need easy rep. Links?

enderland

4

A: What is a 'friendly' way to let managers know that having good developers is a privilege?

The reality is that any of our senior developers can walk out the door and have a new job with as much as 30-40% higher pay within a week. Most of us are only staying here for the casual environment, and being able to mix personal time into our work days. How can I let this manager know t...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Whats better is I bet that you actually got 20 rep from each of us through the magic of migration (vote here, migrate, vote again)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I didn't realize you could do that..

enderland

5

Q: How many hours do you expect to clock in a 40 hour week?

I currently work M-F 8-5 with 1hr lunch breaks. Which leaves me with 40 hours of "work" a week. I am trying to come up with an ideal amount to use when setting up my sprint backlog. I can't use 40 because I just don't work a hard 40 hours in a week, meetings happen, the occasional extended lunch,...

project-management

Jimmy Hoffa

17:26

That is magic. I need to go write SO answers, get some rep, and then flag them for P.SE migration.

enderland

that Q might ride the rep train a bit too

user55340

@JimmyHoffa easier to go the other way... but yea. You get the rep from the existing upvotes (only) on the question with a migration, and then the votes on the new site aren't the same as the original one, so can vote 'again'

Jimmy Hoffa

0

Q: Draw graph of a function whose characteristics are unknown

Suppose I have a function. I have code that, given an x value, produces a y value. I can assume that the function is somewhat mathematically sane, not something crazy like an everywhere-discontinuous function or the like, but beyond that, I don't know anything about it. I want to draw a graph ...

algorithms language-agnostic math

Just flagged for math site migration

user41796

@enderland That one is getting some dogpile answers, no doubt

user55340

Math might actually do the literature too.

enderland

17:30

@GlenH7 only 3 deleted answers, too, though a lot of "meh" ones

user41796

@enderland I like not having rep on TW. Means I don't have to see the cruft that's been culled.

enderland

I like it, because once we graduate it means I get more delete/close votes ;)

Thomas Owens

Head's up. beer.stackexchange.com is heading toward private beta.

203

Beer

Proposed Q&A site for beer aficionados and collectors

Currently in commitment.

user41796

17:45

@ThomasOwens and their chatroom is already setup....

user41796

Two sites I get to be a room owner for...

Thomas Owens

I wonder if beer.SE will be blocked at work. I hope the liquor one takes off. I want to learn about scotch and tequila and vodka.

user41796

@ThomasOwens I am a bit surprised they didn't merge the sites together

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens It's beautiful! BEAUTIFUL!!

...area51 won't render for me right now

or at least not with CSS

> [blocked] The page at 'https://area51.stackexchange.com/' was loaded over HTTPS, but ran insecure content from 'http://edge.quantserve.com/quant.js': this content should also be loaded over HTTPS.

they've added some more traffic grabber schmuck but it's not https so my browser killed it

sucks for them

user41796

@JimmyHoffa You may want to report that as an issue on MSO. IIRC they swapped some systems over with their use of https from end to end (or whatever)

user55340

17:54

@RobertHarvey amusing MSO bit given the conversation a bit ago (start here)

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