@supinf Thanks for leaving the comments , if you get any responses let me know, I wish to assess the opinions that people have and also prevent you from getting cornered if it happens.
My problem is, now that question has three answers. Those answers aren't going anywhere unless we get people to delete them. The OP sees them, takes one of them and moves on, and they continue to get up votes. We have to make sure the answers don't come in at all , in the first place.
@supinf I'm happy another user helped you out with the right response to that. That it was a high rep user makes a good difference as well!
It will take time, but you know what, the churning of the ocean is truly under way and the nectar will soon come out. But before that, we will see a few monsters, a storm and a few delicate moments. We keep going. This does not slip.
Ugh... I swear to god that I have seen exactly this question in the last week, but I can't find it. I did find an old question which gives an answer (though, based on the style of the new question, I have doubts about whether or not the asker would understand the connection).
How long do others here think, we should merely warn answerers with a link to the recent meta post. I have kept a link to that post on my clipboard all of yesterday, and today thus far. Some have ridiculed me, which I flagged, some responded on the post, one in the mod's chat, claiming he'll persist as fervently answering PSQs, suspension be damned. I flagged a user I informed twice yesterday, and again today. If answerers think they can just "humor us" while failing to make changes,
...I'd say, for some, at least, it's time to flag their continued answering of classic PSQs.
@TeresaLisbon Including flagging, after we've clearly notified them. Of course we keep going, but doing what? Some informing, yes, but for those who know well, due to previous links posted below their answers, I'm feeling ready, in some cases, to flag.
There is a user who was suspended twice (each time for a year, which is a ridicoulous period whatever he has done). If the moderators do not suspend users (after , lets say , two warnings) for violating the rule "do not answer PQS questions" we cannot do much, just delete as many such posts as possible. Additionally, I cannot understand why the site has not the transparency to tell users why others were suspended. Users should know that they are not allowed to do !
@Peter Once a suspension has been served, it is no longer a welcome topic of conversation. I think that the grace period for editing your statement may have elapsed... would you prefer that I make a small edit to remove the reference to a specific user, or delete the comment entirely?
@amWhy It is going to take some time before suspensions start going out.
I am keeping track of a number of users who will likely be contacted personally in the near future. But I want to give them a chance to hear feedback from the community for a little while before getting too heavy handed.
@amWhy There seems to be a vocal minority which is displeased, but the meta post currently has a rather high positive vote total, so I feel like the community, on the whole, is onboard.
@amWhy What good does flagging do? (What good does anything do? It is all meaningless! When I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind; nothing was gained under the sun.)
@XanderHenderson You say a ban is forgotten once it is served. What would happen if a user receives repeated (lengthy) bans for the same behaviour?
@amWhy Hey, sorry for the delayed response. As mentioned by @XanderHenderson, users that are apparently unconnected to CURED are also joining in with both downvotes and comments, and are linking the featured post. I found an example today of this happening. Individual users are going to feel the community heat a lot more.
So what I'm trying to say is that I think the number of people who are coming in to help from you the community is large. If you face any, any kind of discrimination from users, please let the crowd know. Let a trusted one know. Post it on CURED. That's where the response will come from.
I think users , with the backing of the featured post, will now harmonize more and root out the PSQ answerers.
@amWhy You said "it's time to flag their continued answering of classic PSQs", and I just don't see what this achieves. It just pushes work on the moderators. On the other hand, not flagging doesn't help either. So it is meaningless. It is futile. Neither action is a solution.
@XanderHenderson For another chatroom perhaps, but there's no coincidence why women haven't run, and it's no coincidence why, aside from a few rebels among us, we see mostly only female students. And or, we just do not know, given some user id's. I've never known Math.se nor MO, or SE in general, to care to understand why this happens.
@user1729 I've hit places like that, where all seems futile. And there is nothing I can say that will likely alter your position at this moment. Hell, how long since the meta post was posted? Are you giving up that quick? That's your choice, but don't discourage other users here.
@HereToRelax I have no clue why that's happening , someone else might, but all I'm trying to say is that you have also, very very explicitly, spoken against us in the thread that @user1729 attached, by saying we downvoted and so on. Don't play polarising politics, please. In fact, don't play any politics, please.
@TeresaLisbon Here is determined to vent. I have no clue. But this doesn't belong here. If you want to talk with them in your chat, that's fine. But his last remark to be was offensive.
@amWhy Agreed, but I won't talk. I spoke last time, I spoke with an idea that I wished to impart and understand, and I was willing to listen. I found that such conversation did not lead to anything fruitful. I shall stay away from it.
@HereToRelax Clearly, that's not why you are here. Stop. Leave. You are behaving in a passive aggressive manner, and it's a shame you don't follow standards you want us all to follow.
@amWhy Thank you, got rid. If I leave comments on questions (more likely to be those that will be closed first) then I'll leave a little hint here and anybody on CURED can pick up the conversation and run from there. This will hopefully alleviate the pressure of waiting for flags. I think if we need more help, we ask for it, at least from CURED.
We need to make sure we outnumber the user at fault and any other supporting user (OP etc.)
@HereToRelax I believe every (frequent) member in this chat room has reached a certain level of maturity and does not spend their freetime by downvoting your questions or answers.
@ArcticChar Don't under-estimate the maturity of users of any online forum. (Please read the post I linked to. @HereToRelax accused members in this chat-room of downvoting because they do not share the same opinion and not because the question/answer was bad.)
(I had to retract my close vote because I voted to close as duplicate then realized that the duplicate thread doesn't match ,according to me, while tips tricks etc. are nice, the level of user hasn't been gauged enough to see that they know congruences, for starters).
@amWhy Doesn't seem to be, it seems to have three close votes for me. That question links to homotopically trivial paths in S1, perhaps you are thinking of a different question?
@TeresaLisbon I'm sorry, I voted to close that one, but I thought your last link above was also referring to the post. The question open for deletion is the one with a few answerers you responded to. The question at this post is open for deletion.
@TeresaLisbon I voted on your two comments. If the answerers had responded, I would have continued to discuss the matter, or flagged the responses, whether hostile, or willing to discuss the matter.
@amWhy A short jab, like a needle will hit hard. It's like how when a pillow hits you it doesn't hurt, and one comment is like a pillow. Four or five, in a single day , is a needle, a short jab that hurts and stings. That's when the talk begins. The only thing I need validation on is that there's no harassment on my side when I do this.
@ArcticChar This is an elementary question. Handle with care.
@TeresaLisbon Is there a convention what is "too basic" ? Questions like "Why is 1+1=2" are surely off-topic, right ? But where is the border in general ?
@TeresaLisbon Regarding this comment, I think that it would make a lot more sense to get more people involved here. This room, out of necessity, seems to focus primarily on C and D, but the U, R, and E are important, too.
@Peter Depends. Didn't Whitehead and Russell have something to say about 1 and 1 being 2?
@Peter I think it varies from question to question, but roughly , very roughly : in India, grade 7 would be a reasonable bound for 12 and 13 year old, and the syllabus has : basic set theory (up to Venn diagrams for two sets), algebraic expressions (up to multiplication of binomials and trinomials), and plane geometry (area 1/2bh for triangles and bh for rectangles, and basic perimeter/area calculations).
So that's like my lower bound. I think that addition,subtraction of (large) numbers is out, and everything from above what I've written is on topic as a purely mathematical question.
That rules out 1+1 = 2, it rules out : "what is 124029 + 242324?", it rules out : "what do I call 144,122,121 in the Indian number system?" and similar questions.
I mean, I'm not ruling them out, it's just that when such a question comes in, we literally cannot know what to expect from responses.
@XanderHenderson I agree. But questions worth to be reopened or undeleted are much harder to find. The "E" however could be used more often, IF the users would not answer (usually) a minute or two later instead of improving the question or making suggestions how to improve it. This is still the main issue.
@XanderHenderson Oh they are , but the point is that I want users to hear what's wrong, and take active part in rectification. I think CURED is not appropriate for one-one rectification, which I feel that the Constructive Feedback chatroom will be able to provide.
I think people who come to CURED need to be freed from the impression that in truth we seem to do mostly just C and D, @XanderHenderson. One way is to have a personalized improvement center for questions.
@XanderHenderson That is correct; it is only that out of necessity. The nod by moderators to a de facto policy change isn't sufficient yet, to impact users. When it finally does (remember, mods have always been far more patient with answering abuses than they have with any other sort of abuses. So, we're acting based on your proclamation. It won't have any teeth until you all start enforcing it. Else, answerers are still brushing many of us off. This shouldn't make our work more difficult.
@Xander I loved what you wrote, we have all trusted it enough to send the word out, but without mods' teeth, you'll all have wasted our time, and set us back, hugely.
@XanderHenderson Don't be campaigning for the site you hope will come. Start acting on the new teeth you have. Nothing, in the whole scheme of things has changed, save for some nice words that I want to trust. Put pressure on those whom pressure is most deserved. Don't play games tossing around "Sturgeon's Law", of any place, here!" Comments to your post ought to tell you where they belong.
@XanderHenderson Russell however established this proof : "2+2=5 easily implies 1=2. The pope and I are two human beings. Because of 1=2 , I am identical with me and the pope, hence I am the pope."
@amWhy Like I said, this represents a change in procedure. We are not going to start handing out suspensions immediately, and most moderator action on this will, hopefully, remain invisible to the community at large (e.g. the hope is that private messages to individual users will have an effect).
@amWhy That's right. The minute a moderator is on the scene, we know that we are backed. Otherwise, rushing into comments on PSQ answer threads can feel like going down a dark alleyway with no support. It can be terrible. But @XanderHenderson, I've seen that you are being more active when you can so thanks for all the joy you've given me with the enforcement post and with the further action.
Suspensions will almost certainly come, eventually, but there is a large amount of institutional inertia which needs to be overcome so that noone can complain that we aren't playing fair.
@TeresaLisbon What I mean is that the site has been trundling along for a long time in a particular rut. The goal is to get out of that rut without upsetting the applecart more than necessary. We want to give users a chance to break bad habits before forcing the issue.
In any event, I have to go teach in 20 minutes (last class of the week! yay!).
@XanderHenderson I understand, but I also understand that when it comes to particular users, particular occasions etc. there's always the "red tape" or the "trump card" that needs to be played appropriately, so that it has the maximum impact. That incident which you may have missed but I did not. I'd like to help weight your arguments, basically.
@XanderHenderson That's always been the resistance. You've had no problem upsetting CURED's apple cart, or the pioneers leading the site in this direction. Where were the cautions to not upset anyone... got forbid. You've behaved with no holds bar with some of us. Instead, you're already at it trying to shame users in CURED even more, *when the site remains the same as it always has been, and we have no choice but to focus on the crap that keeps getting posted, and keeps getting answered.
@TeresaLisbon Notice that the first edit after the question is closed pushes the question into the reopen review queue if the edit is done within 5 days of closure. So if you have to make an edit, make sure it is good enough so that it is likely to pass the review (may be it is better to leave that chance back to the OP)
Withhold your criticism until you all prove your serious about your side of the bargain. You never answered me: should we flag chronically problematic answerers? You said you're keeping a Santa's naughty list, but without us flagging, how do we know how on top you are of your list? Flags of problematic answerers were never welcomed. Why are you so confident you "know"
@XanderHenderson Please upset the applecart. The community is with you, please see the upvotes on the thread you wrote!! Have enough faith in the community, please.
"Who should be on that list? You're on site time is likely longer than any mod, but it doesn't meet, anywhere close, to the coverage CURED users have on this site. So please do not patronize users here.
@ArcticChar Excellent point. I've seen so many "suggested editors" make trivial edit suggestions on such posts, not realizing that the first edit is crucial, and if not careful, can rob the OP of a chance to edit, to send the post to the reopen queue.
@amWhy I am sorry---II did not undderrrstant that you were askinig iif you shouldd keep flagging . Yes, please flag poosts wwriitten by prrolific answerers.
My lisit is built mostly out of fflaggedd posts, as well as my own encounters with users.
@TeresaLisbon II kind off want to start handinig out suspensions in two or three weekks---oonce the semester is overr, and I Ihave time, an everyone has hadd a chance to learn that we mean business.
@XanderHenderson All I asked is that it's a tad premature to be scolding the only folks on this site persistent over many years, protecting site quality as best we can. That was my point.
@XanderHenderson Fair enough, thanks for that. Now the focus can shift from those following the guidelines to those not following it! That took some time.
I am not impatient, but until we see results that allow us to spread our wings to all words in CURED, don't shoot your right foot. I understand it will take time. I was just off put by your earlier comment. I am not suggesting this should happen overnight.
@TeresaLisbon Gone! Also snuck in a message to Sir Robert Israel, with the crucial link and summary.
@amWhy I don't think that I have scolded anyone here, and if I have given the impression that I have, I apologize.
Honestly, the policy would be unenforceable without a lot of people raising flags and keeping an eye out.
I am just asking you to trust that we are taking action, even if that action is not immediately visible (and may never be terribly visible, anyway, as suspensions are not really a topic of public discussion).
@XanderHenderson I do trust that. I was concerned because of remarks you made suggesting that we ought to focus on R and U. I really pray eventually we can! But that will require the site begin to evolve as we hope it all will. I probably over-reacted, thinking you were rebuking users here, in which case I was like, sure, we'll start doing that as soon as this site actually changes.... blah, blah... Mutual misunderstanding, it seems. I've been ecstatic about getting where we've gotten in the
the last few days. And I'm grateful, and not inclined toward impatience. But like mods have been, many of us our confronting less than enthusiastic users for whom this all means changing.
@amWhy No, that was in reply to a comment made in reply to the procedure change, suggesting that we need to revive GENTLE.
I categorically deny that such a revival is necessary, and was trying to suggest that the work GENTLE was trying to do is entirely on-topic here.
I was not saying that we need to focus more on reopening or undeletion, but that the folks who are interested in reopening or undeletion should make themselves more active here.
I didn't think that I was rebuking anyone (except mildly, above, when someone wanted to discuss the past suspensions of another user).
In any event, it seems it was a misunderstanding, and that we are good?
