CURED - 2021-04-08

Paramanand Singh

01:57

It appears the debate on CURED activities has been stirred up again. Took quite sometime to read all those messages. Thanks to @amWhy, @quid, @XanderHenderson, for the strong defence of CURED philosophy.

I can now see that the problem runs much deeper. While differences of opinion are important, there has to be a good amount of agreement among mods regarding site policies (especially on the notion of a good question and "how to ask").

Paramanand Singh

04:15

close integral PSQ. I guess that this is one of the instances where a problem is taken from a research paper to pose as a challenge.

Paramanand Singh

04:38

this appears to be off-topic for math.se

one more vote needed to close this PSQ

Paramanand Singh

04:51

another integral PSQ

Paramanand Singh

05:12

this is surely a dupe. Please help find dupe target and its closure.

I got this dupe target via approach0. If there is a better target please use that.

Some Guy

05:35

Hello, on this post, the asker didn't show an attempt math.stackexchange.com/questions/4087619/… , but another person then edited in an attempt, which clearly conflict with authors intent, but the edit got approved, what should I do?

KReiser

@SomeGuy I'd revert the edit (or flag for mods to revert, if you don't have enough rep)

Some Guy

Oh actually it turns out they put the attempt in the comments and the attempt that was edited in by someone else was the attempt that was placed in the comments, so should I leave the edit be? @KReiser

KReiser

06:02

@SomeGuy Yes, leaving it be would be appropriate if it was copied from the comments.

Paramanand Singh

07:43

close this PSQ

Teresa Lisbon

@ParamanandSingh Closed, but left open to see if author can improve post from your suggested guidance. Also, I am not saying that the answer below is not good as a standalone, but there's no confirmation of whether it answers the question : is a closed form wanted? Is an approximation wanted? Is a hint wanted? Is it ok if special functions are used? Nothing is clear. That answer should have been given either once everything is clear, or not at all.

SmokeDetector

08:31

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] No whitespace in title, repeating characters in title (136): blobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ✏️ by Lorenzo on math.SE

soupless

13:02

Not sure, but why do I feel that this is same to this?

Pedro Tamaroff

13:26

@XanderHenderson I do not agree in that there is a "world of difference" between mentioning the book or class the problem came out of, as long as it is stated clearly. I think that showing an attempt is an improvement, absolutely.

@XanderHenderson I agree. My question is: how much follow up do users that close the question give such question? I've seen many questions closed and then deleted with no comment (other than the system generated one). This does not motivate people to engage (it seems that it is more usual for new users to shy away from the cite after getting a question closed).

Naturally, I don't think anyone should be forced to "keep the channel open", but I think it would be good if the high rep. users that close questions in groups perhaps leave a comment showing the OP you not only care about "the quality of the site" but also about helping people that participate in it.

@XanderHenderson When I said "trusted" I didn't mean "high XP" but rather that the two answers were given by people that I believe can be trusted to make the decision that an answer is worth giving: one is a professor and the other is a working in a university (though I am not sure at what level). In particular, I'd find it rare that they would be answering just for the sake of earning reputation points, as it has been suggested.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff Hah, look at all the "retired professors" who are eager to do others' homework for them. I think you are extremely selective and biased in what you report you see. Give me some time, as you've refused to thus far, to make explicit what you conveniently ignore. And I'm not convinced you're on this site much at all. You can't expect users hear to here your concerns, without being open and inviting to hear our concerns about

2

abuse of users against members of CURED, and care enough to do something about that problem. It's never going to be "your way, Pedro, or the highway. But that's how you've presented yourself in this chat for the last two days.

Pedro Tamaroff

13:42

If you think there are "abuses" maybe raise a flag. I am not sure what you're talking about.

@XanderHenderson Not at the moment. I think your intentions are well meant, but I am perhaps worried about how they are being implemented by other users different than you and in particular how there seems to be an "us against them" mentality in this room.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff Well, you've never asked, have you? I have more helpful flags than you ever came close to, even if measuring average helpful flags per year. To suggest users here don't care about helping users reveals you have no idea of the sum total of all our efforts, not just within this chat. Review how many chatrooms user21820, helps out, I help out, Teresa helps out, I coach as much as I do quality control. But as long as high rep users continue to answer PSQ's, there's no chance for any of

...to have time to encourage and inform those PSQ askers, who keep thinking, "why should I bother... someone always does my homework for me..."

Pedro Tamaroff

What does that have to do with claims of abuse?

amWhy

→ 1 message moved to Trash

Bill Dubuque

14:02

Not an answer user posted program output when OP seeks proof

@PedroTamaroff I can assure you that there are plenty of folks employed by math departments of universities who would likely be motivated by gamification. Not everyone is so sure of their teaching skills so their ego in this area may be fragile, even if they are confident as a researcher.

Pedro Tamaroff

@BillDubuque Sure, that may happen. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I mean, after all it seems a bit too rash to assume people are posting because they have a fragile ego and doubt their teaching skills and not because they want to help, which is more or less why the site exists.

Bill Dubuque

@PedroTamaroff If that were true then there would be no need at all to motivate people by gamification.

Pedro Tamaroff

People need some kind of motivation, literally almost every forum has "fake internet points".

Anyways, I have to work. Bye!

Xander Henderson

A problem's source gives insight into the level of answer that an asker is seeking. A question about a problem from Thomas' Calculus is going to have a very different kind of answer when compared to the same problem from Rudin's Principles of Real Analysis. Similarly, knowing what course a student is taking will help to narrow down what kind of answer is expected.

Even better, in my opinion, would be for the asker to actually *motivate* the question and explain why it is interesting, but I was responding to your claim that a lot of questions are asked by people who lack to mathematical m…

@PedroTamaroff Let me reverse the question: after having a post closed, how many askers ask for feedback? When I unilaterally close posts (often within minutes of them being posted), I tend to either "follow" them or leave the tab open in case the asker replies. It almost never happens, and I don't think that it is reasonable to demand that the community waste their time providing feedback to users who never respond.

Bill Dubuque

14:18

@PedroTamaroff It seems you've never encountered someone who loves to teach math, since they need no gamification etc. Rather they are motivated purely by the joy of sharing the beauty of mathematics. It seems those of younger generations often make the false inference that such gamification is needed (being ubiquitous nowadays) . But they are too young to have been around to see the successes of the older non-gamed platforms.

Xander Henderson

@PedroTamaroff I don't think that being a career academic necessarily implies that one should be considered "trusted" on Math SE. These things are orthogonal, as the goals of academia and Math SE are not the same. It is like saying that a mathematician ought to be a good accountant, since accountancy is just numbers, right?

2

Note that I'm not implying that these folk are answering questions just to earn XP. Rather, I think that they have a genuine interest in helping individual askers. I just don't think that this kind of help is in the best interests of the site, which hopes to be a repository of knowledge. One-on-one tutoring is best done in chat, or somewhere else entirely.

user21820

More worrying nonsense.

Paramanand Singh

14:52

@PedroTamaroff: many users of this room as well other reviewers too leave helpful comments for the questions they close. But only a small percent of askers respond with enthusiasm. Mostly such messages are ignored. Even the messages related to the new mathjax tutorial designed for beginners (which I often post in comments) is ignored.

2

However that does not deter us. And sometimes I do get to share success stories of askers responding with enthusiasm.

@PedroTamaroff: if you participate in this room on regular basis (2,3 days per week), you will perhaps think differently about this room and its users.

2

@PedroTamaroff: and here is an honest admission. In past I also used to answer PSQs. And my answers were probably downvoted by some users of this room. Often I would get angry and write weird messages seeking explanation for those downvotes. There was also feedback (in particular from Jyrki and MartinR) that I should not post repeat answers to various dupes. It took me a while but finally realized the futility of such answering and understood CURED philosophy.

I still think that many users are still trapped in gamification and it needs a little bit more convincing to explain them our motivation.

2

@PedroTamaroff: on an unrelated note, wish you good luck for MO elections

Paramanand Singh

15:15

@user21820: indeed that was worrisome. Some people have guts to invent that kind of thing.

RRL

Close: PSQ1, PSQ2, PSQ3, PSQ4

Paramanand Singh

15:41

another PSQ

amWhy

16:22

@ParamanandSingh , @user21820 The post is open for deletion. math.stackexchange.com/q/4090736

Paramanand Singh

16:46

@amWhy: it's gone now.

amWhy

17:05

@ParamanandSingh Thanks!

amWhy

17:17

@PedroTamaroff No, you don't. You certainly don't extend "the benefit of the doubt" to users of CURED. You are just as guilty, if you blame users here for demonizing others, of demonizing users here, and making angels of the only users your support. Please don't come here demanding change, before you are willing to change, as well.

Peter

17:32

D

rschwieb

17:43

psq math.stackexchange.com/q/4094486/29335

supinf

Is there a guide for when to close a question? Other than math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/9959/…. (context: a user asked me to justify my close vote).

maybe @amWhy knows something?

amWhy

@supinf You can reply giving the reason for closure you cited when voting to close, and include a link from meta's "How to ask a good question". Don't feel you have to defend yourself. Be straight forward, and link math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/9959/…

supinf

@amWhy thanks for your reply :)

amWhy

To link it, write [How to ask a good question](insert link).

@supinf Glad to help.

supinf

@amWhy the user deleted the question, so I am unable to provide any justification now :D

amWhy

17:58

@supinf Well, keep the advice tucked away, so you can rely on it in the future, when the need arises. The link itself is always sufficient to use as a comment. ;D

rschwieb

VLQPSQ math.stackexchange.com/q/4094649/29335

I feel like I'm seeing new blood in here....

user21820

18:18

@RRL PSQ4 is up for deletion now.

Teresa Lisbon

18:48

@rschwieb Yes, why not? At least they seem to have got the message. If they are willing to spread it, that's great!

amWhy

@user21820 Went to check it out, and it's already gone!

Teresa Lisbon

Small note : unable to locate the post, but this user had posted a question which got closed, a contest question or something.

@amWhy You seem to have one of the delete votes there.

PSQ

user21820

@TeresaLisbon There was a cheater whose username was also "logan" (which has been removed). Who knows whether it's the same one or not, as there multiple "logans" on Math SE.

Teresa Lisbon

@user21820 I see, could easily be the same one!

rschwieb

19:05

@TeresaLisbon Yup, i meant it as a positive observation.

Teresa Lisbon

@rschwieb Thought so too. Yeah, it's good to have people sending that message firmly across.

Duplicate needs deletion (DND)

DND

DND?

DND

rschwieb

@TeresaLisbon I feel like we're talking about two different things. I was saying "it's nice to see new people here", and I don't really know what message you're talking about :(

vitamin d

19:20

@amWhy I think this is your job ;D: Second comment under this META post recommends to play the system.

Teresa Lisbon

@rschwieb Oh, I see. I'm talking about the positive comment that said : "you should add context, and say what you've tried", and I thought you were praising that user. These comments refer to that. If I've got something wrong, then I'm sorry!

vitamin d

Comment isn't there anymore. I believe @XanderHenderson deleted it?

Teresa Lisbon

PSQ

Duplicate target wanted

PSQ?

amWhy

@vitamind Yeah, I accosted that user. And moderator(s) over deleted the question to help hide his long story in the making... which became more absurd and more absurd, and bumped the post to the front page.

@vitamind I really don't know who... there were a lot of comments, and I had flagged the one you mention, and another comment reiterating it. Hah, maybe my flags were finally handled!! ;D

Teresa Lisbon

Is this an acceptable comment?

PSQ

Answer gone wrong, delete

PSQ

amWhy

19:41

@TeresaLisbon I flagged it "something else" commenting that it is a rude comment... more flags would be helpful (hint, hint). I also commented below their comment, but if the flag is handled and the comment deleted, mine will be too, which I don't mind at all.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Yes!

amWhy

@TeresaLisbon ;D

Teresa Lisbon

Is there a short form for "PSQ"?

PSQ with six answers to downvote and delete

PSQ

amWhy

@TeresaLisbon One more delete vote needed.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Thank you. The answerer struck gold in the comments, the hint was not downvoted once, but a measly six times.

PSQ to downvote and delete

PSQ

DND

PSQ?

amWhy

19:56

@TeresaLisbon Do not disturb? Do not delete?

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Duplicate, needs deletion. Short form : DND!

I'll change, just getting bored typing it all out!

amWhy

@TeresaLisbon Got it!

Teresa Lisbon

PSQ

PSQ, probably duplicate too

PSQ

Contrast above PSQ with this one Delete this one, and then the previous one.

Close as duplicate

PSQ

A real kick in the teeth and an opportunity to tell everybody to own your answers like precious jewels, and treat the OP with respect. Everything about that post smacks of a lackadaisical attitude towards both OP , the site, the whole idea of answering questions and being helpful. I've lost a few brain cells reading this.

PSQ

Thoughts on last line of this answer?

Delete

Geometric progression formula duplicate

amWhy

20:24

@Teresa It was a while ago when I asked users here to limit the number of close requests to twelve in one day, and the same: 12 requests for deletion. This was to allow interested users to post their choices of close/delete candidates, else people's daily allotment of votes gets up way before the end of the day, and some users' requests go unattended to. I've quickly counted 24 requests for closure, and half a dozen requests for deletion. No worries about today or previous days.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Ok, I'll keep the rest for tomorrow.

Ouch, I've perhaps crossed the line twice, yes, I'll be careful next time.

amWhy

Many of us, @Teresa, also diligently vote in the close queue, limiting our spare votes even more. If we get more active participants here, we can revisit the rough limit.

@TeresaLisbon No, you were fine, I think, on the requests for delete votes. Don't sweat it. We love your dedication!!

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy I consciously did not vote in that queue today, anticipating the flood I was going to get from my crawl. Having said that, yes, I probably indulged a little too much today. But I'll post the rest tomorrow, I still have about another 13 or 14 to go. I mean, let's put it this way : Five users together answered 45 questions in one day and 92 in two days. Each of them on average had three to four candidates for scrutiny in this lot. And I follow far more than five users, so that's a tsunami!

amWhy

...and your enthusiasm, and you couldn't have known.

Teresa Lisbon

We need more people, @amWhy, certainly we do. If people are posting so many answers in one day and with a frightening answer-to-PSQ answer ratio, we are going to be swamped.

amWhy

20:31

@TeresaLisbon Oh, and don't we know it. The crap is coming in and answered at a faster rate that we can counter = surplus crap!! Hence I can not understand the cluelessness of Pedro!!

I really wish, just like askers have, that answerers had a limit of answering 50 questions per month... You'd see quality of answers go up, and more selectivity in which questions are answered, for them to make the most out of 50 answers per month!!

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy I agree. The whole FGITW on a PSQ phenomena is taking over MSE. The problem with FGITW, for me, is that I often doubt the sincerity and motive behind an FGITW answer. I can understand that it serves the purpose quickly, but the meaning of purpose was different then (when it was defended somewhere on SE meta) and now.

amWhy

But one of the creators of SE designed to get the most questions and answers as possible, to become a repository. But he did plan far enough ahead to the point math.se reached at least 2/3 years ago. Most questions today are dupes, and/or not worth keeping, and don't need more answers. There are at times gems, but now that SE needs advertisement support, they're still trapped in trying to maximize the traffic on SE.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy The answer which I shared above was a real smack in the face, a sickener of sorts. You are absolutely right : an answer limit will teach users to value their answers. The problem with "most questions and answers" is that if you are aiming for quantity you are compromising on quality then and there, so the creators better know this. Finally, even if SE maximizes traffic I hope that if we mobilizes newbies enough,

we can kind of keep track of who enters and who goes with that support ,and then actually progress as a site.

amWhy

Bottom line: there are an abundance of goals: Increase traffic to gain sponsors, maximize profits, minimize costs, gain rep, try to gain my rank in all time users rep, and then there are those that truly want to help users learn, and those who want to maintain a site so it's worth keeping, and the last two goals often go together. And some of them clash completely.

@TeresaLisbon Indeed!

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Yes, so true. I'd like to say that the fact that reputation and badges are the only numerical measures of "contribution to the site" is what is driving the entire scenario that we are witnessing. Perhaps we should have a section for "best helper of the day" and "best question by a newbie" and so on. We could put a meta question each week or day or whatever with these details.

Of course, I haven't thought the entire thing out, but this is a way of encouraging users to get themselves known on the site as helpful.

amWhy

20:50

But helpful is relative: an asker seeking people to do their homework will call "helpful" any answerer who does it for them. I admire Martin Sleziak very much because he gives so much of his time to this site, and can find things and search more effectively that almost all others, including mods. And what I admire most about him, is that he does not seek nor expect "candy", credit, points, etc. for doing what he does.

I used to tell young answerers: there are two kinds of reputation that one earns on this site. First, lowercase reputation are the "points" you earn when asking a good question, or answering, etc. Lowercase reputation points are useful in striving for more access on the site and more privileges. But after 20 K, it's all just icing. And what you do from this point on, is going to impact your rep, and your capital R Reputation, which is how well you are seen by members of the site, mods,...

Because Reputation is not measured in points, it's what earns trust, and respect from others....

Teresa Lisbon

Another kick in any leftover teeth

amWhy

blah blah. That's been helpful sometimes.

@TeresaLisbon It needs one more close vote to open deletion. I also downvoted the answerer earlier.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Done, you can put a delete vote now.

I don't know how I missed the downvote. Got caught in the comments there. The second and fourth I have flagged, you can do so as well.

I have caught a total of 50 answers today that weren't up to the mark. That number is staggering. We need help. I need bed.

(Sorry , I understand the reason why I should not add more questions. I'm just very tired)

Those questions are in, first thing tomorrow.

( It's already tomorrow!)

amWhy

@TeresaLisbon Sleep well!!

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Sure! I will get you an update. It's been a crazy day.

SmokeDetector

22:14

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, no whitespace in body, no whitespace in title, repeating characters in body, repeating characters in title (396): 0qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ✏️ by ffx on math.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, no whitespace in body, repeating characters in body (260): Geometry Circles, I am stuck and cant find the equation to find c and then prove that c is a integer? ✏️ by ffx on math.SE

amWhy

23:01

Both the above questions, @SmokeDetector were vandalized by the op ffx, after they were found to have posted current contest questions, then deleted by the author.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ CURED