CURED - 2021-04-07

SmokeDetector

01:02

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer, repeating characters in answer (264): $E[X|\mathcal{Q}] \leq \liminf_nE [X_n|\mathcal{Q}]$ ✏️ by NN2 on math.SE

Paramanand Singh

02:25

Just wanted to share the positive feeling. This question was closed for lack of context. The asker took feedback in comments in a very positive manner and I requested a reopen here. The question was reopened and the asker was able to arrive at a full solution based on my hints. I then provided an answer. I wish other new contributors behave in similar manner.

Peter

05:53

@amWhy I cannot close-vote this question : meesage : you have already close-voted,

Teresa Lisbon

06:26

@Peter The same has occurred with me.

Paramanand Singh

06:39

@Peter: my close vote is recorded. I wonder why it is showing that message to you.

Also it appears that the question has gone into a delete undelete cycle.

If things get worse maybe mods will need to lock it.

Peter

07:32

→ 7 messages moved to Trash

SmokeDetector

07:55

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in body (67): \int \sqrt{x^{7}}-7\sqrt[6]{x^{5}}+17\sqrt[3]{x^{10}}dx by Adil Maqsood on math.SE

Peter

@ParamanandSingh I tried it various times. Still not possible.

Paramanand Singh

08:21

Let us hope you are able to vote on other questions.

Peter

Apparently yes, there must be something special with this particular question

Martin R

@Peter If you voted to close a question, and the question was closed and reopened, then it takes some time until you can close vote on the same question again. I don't remember the details, but you can probably find the information here:

2

103

Q: Age close votes after 14 days, regardless of views, allowing recasting

I've been putting this off for a long time... Close vote aging - the deactivation of votes that haven't resulted in a question being closed - is a critical part of the vote-to-close system, but has something of a troubled history: all too often, it has been more annoying than useful, capriciously...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer, username similar to website in answer (127): How do you model growth of a virus? by Boxym on math.SE

Peter

@MartinR Thank you for this information !

Peter

09:45

C

still not closed

Pedro Tamaroff

10:44

@user21820 I find it really worrying that you post such message.

The post is not "nonsense", by any definition of it.

Please be reasonable with what you expect from new users.

@BillDubuque Note that many questions you may identify as "abstract" duplicates are not so in the eyes of non experienced users (of algebra, say).

Please mind this when closing questions as abstract duplicated, where it is expected the user can make the translation from their particular problem to a more generic solution that may be over their heads.

If closing as duplicate, at least leave a comment explaining how the OP should use the information in the abstract duplicate to answer their question.

@amWhy This question has answers to it, which have six upvotes each.

What is your reason for deleting it?

I understand closing this and deleting, but honestly I cannot see what the argument for the other deletion is...

(Note: I see you're doing splendid work closing and deleting many very low quality posts, but it seems sometimes reasonable posts get caught under the hammer. My only request is you be careful!)

vitamin d

11:08

PSQ

Teresa Lisbon

12:33

@vitamind Self-deleted.

Xander Henderson

12:52

@PedroTamaroff The expectations for all users should be the same (and the emphasis should be on the content of the posts, and not on the users, anyway). It is entirely reasonable to treat new users with kid gloves---to give them more advice, to spend more time helping them improve posts, to give them more guidance on how to use the site, etc.

However, at the end of the day, a question or answer needs to be judged not on the basis of who asked it, but on the quality of the post itself.

3

@PedroTamaroff I am not sure why an upvoted answer is relevant. The question itself is +6/-11 (so quite negatively received---downvotes are far less common than upvotes, so a disparity like that is rather significant). I believe that there is a consensus that a good answer cannot save a poor question (though a great answer might---do you believe, aside from the HNQ induced upvoting, that the answer there is great?).

2

In any event, it is good to see you here. I don't think that I agree with your stance on the two questions I replied about, but I think that more participation here is better than less.

Peter

13:13

C

D

Xander Henderson

@TeresaLisbon If you create a link like [C](link to post) PSQ, several of us have a script which turns the links into something a little more human readable. Compare:

There is a link to the userscript which does this in the room description.

Peter

C/D

Pedro Tamaroff

@XanderHenderson I think I wanted to link to this one.

I agree that the $0^0$ question can safely go. :)

The question there has three answers, all of different flavour and technique, and the post itself is not too terrible.

I can expect that a person new to enumerative combinatorics may be a bit stupefied by the question...

@XanderHenderson (Hope we're a bit more closer to agreement now ;) )

I'll leave you all to do your "cleaning up"! Thanks for the efforts.

Peter

13:31

@PedroTamaroff Unfortunately, $0^0$ has been reopened or undeleted , so some users (like me) cannot close-vote it yet.

Pedro Tamaroff

@Peter Ugh. Let me check...

Hmm, it looks like the post is on the way to become an (un)delete kerfuffle. Let's hope it does not happen...

HereToRelax

Do you think there is something I can do to save the question?

I am willing to invest as much time as is needed

Peter

@PedroTamaroff You can however help to close/delete my above posts, for example that with the NP=P-claim ("still not closed")

Pedro Tamaroff

@HereToRelax Mmm, I am not sure if it is worth your time.

Why don't you ask it in Reddit?

HereToRelax

13:47

@PedroTamaroff I am sure it is not worth my time

I don't have a reddit account. Should I open one?

Pedro Tamaroff

I do not know, that's 100% your choice.

HereToRelax

I was talking about saving the question here.

Peter

@PedroTamaroff Thank you , can be deleted now.

HereToRelax

@Peter Can I ask you what your take on closing a question but also answering it is? This is related to this. math.stackexchange.com/questions/4090024/…

Peter

@HereToRelax First , this question was unclear , therefore I close-voted it. After it had been clarified, I could answer it.

HereToRelax

14:00

Oh ok. I voted to reopen it.

Peter

Me too

Xander Henderson

14:34

@PedroTamaroff But that question is even worse! It is a bare problem statement with zero context, motivation, or explanation. I also suspect that the question is a duplicate (it seems like an elementary combinatorics exercise which must have been asked several times before). Are any of the answers to that question really remarkable?

If anything, that question seems like a good candidate for a rewrite, followed by someone taking the time to track down the duplicates so that they can all be linked to a single high-quality Q&A pair.

The $0^0$ is, I think, kind of an interesting question, just not a good fit for Math SE (too opinion based, there isn't really any way of providing an authoritative answer, it is meant to provoke discussion, etc).

HereToRelax

Makes sense, I'll just try to leave it undeleted then (not unclosed).

I am also open to make it more on-topic

Bill Dubuque

14:53

@PedroTamaroff Sigh, you undeleted and reopened a dupe of one of the biggest FAQs in ENT, and then added a dupe answer. Imo this is an abuse of moderator power.

3

soupless

@BillDubuque Can I ask what ENT means, please?

Bill Dubuque

@soupless Elementary Number Theory

HereToRelax

Thanks

soupless

@BillDubuque Oh. Thank you!

HereToRelax

I'm also going to do my best to learn the jargon here

Xander Henderson

14:58

As an aside, @HereToRelax, I work in an area where it makes sense to define either $0^0 = 0$ or $0^0 = +\infty$. The expression $0^w$ occurs frequently as the the value of an integrand. We are concerned with the convergence or divergence of that integral as $\Re(w)$ varies (the integral converges if $\Re(w)$ is sufficiently large, and diverges if it is sufficiently small). It is not necessary for us to define $0^0$, but convenient or natural to say that it is either zero or infinity.

HereToRelax

I find that very interesting. Thank you

So $w$ is a complex number ?

Xander Henderson

@HereToRelax Yes.

Pedro Tamaroff

@XanderHenderson Sounds a bit dramatic.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff You don't really care to hear, though you agree further down in the conversation, only after another moderator commented on the question. Protecting answers to poor questions ought not be our goal. My only request is that you be careful of protecting the answerers you favor, and in protecting very poor questions/dupes as a means to that end. Please be careful in treating this site as the site that existed when you became moderator.

Pedro Tamaroff

I think I made my point clear regarding Bill's close vote.

Xander Henderson

15:07

@PedroTamaroff I am sorry that my tone is inappropriate. Let me rephrase: in my opinion this question lacks context. The asker does not provide a source for the question, nor motivation, nor any of their own thoughts on the problem. This is a problem statement question (PSQ). I think that there is a fairly strong consensus that PSQs are not appropriate for Math SE.

I also suspect that the problem is a duplicate, as it seems like the kind of thing that would be asked of students taking an elementary course on combinatorics. I would guess that a motivated person could find a good dupe target, and that a more motivated person could rewrite the question (in accordance with the policy posted last year).

Bill Dubuque

@PedroTamaroff If you looked closer you would learn that the linked questions on the abstract dupe target has 24 links including answers at all level explaining how to solve modular quadratics (by CRT). Your answer adds nothing at all new (and leaves much to be desired as for rigor)

2

Xander Henderson

None of the answers seems particularly remarkable (they a perfectly nice bits of mathematical exposition, but nothing truly profound or special).

amWhy

@Pedro Please pay closer attention to my unfairly downvoted and deleted answers, then at least your protection of highly upvoted answerers would at least be consistent, since is evidently not, now.

Xander Henderson

As such, I think that the question is a very poor fit for Math SE, and that it really ought to be, at the very least, closed (I would not be very much opposed to keeping it around, but I don't think that it should be left open, as this sends a signal to future askers that such questions are acceptable).

Regarding the $0^0$ question, I think that this is actually a very good question, just not a very good question for Math SE.

Peter

@amWhy In the case you did not notice yet, there is a problem with the $0^0$-question : Teresa and I cannot close-vote it.

HereToRelax

15:11

@amWhy Yes those downvotes on your answers are clearly bogus.

amWhy

@Peter If you already closed it (it was previously voted to close or open) you cannot vote again to do so. Delete/undelete votes can be repeated.

HereToRelax

@Peter what context is it missing?

Pedro Tamaroff

You seem all to have a very strong opinion on what you do and what you want for the site. So discussing this seems like an exercise in futility. I don't think that the question I reopened is so clear cut. This is looking a bit like an echo chamber (especially with the starring of messages that only agree with your opinions.) Goodbye.

Peter

@amWhy OK, then the other users have to do it. There are enough here at the moment...

HereToRelax

@Peter Why do you want to get it deleted?

amWhy

15:17

@PedroTamaroff please address the comment to the comment, or user you are addressing? Oh, I see you run again from confronting and dealing with and listening to feedback, as is your style, because you seem to have a very strong opinion on what your do and want from this site. So discussing

Peter

It is clearly opinion-based. There is no convention about what $0^0$ should be and there is neither an unproblematic justtification for either value although I favourite $0^0=1$

Bill Dubuque

@PedroTamaroff I already explained this above. I do go to great effort to monitor closed questions to ensure OP understands everything. But in this case the OP deleted the question 19 seconds after it was closed. There is no way for me to know if that was a "rage deletion" or an "ok, I see it now" deletion. I can't read minds. Nor can I do much after the OP's deletion.

amWhy

.... @Pedro, cont. So discussing this with you seems like an exercise in futility. You feel you can come to this chat one time, since you've been a moderator, and expect to have the final word? Hah! Make it here regularly, even once every time you actually are on site, or every other time, we can work together on coming to a workable plan. But it's entirely unreasonable to think you'd have an impact here when you've never explained your actions publicly on site.

HereToRelax

@Peter the question is basically asking for examples of "there is neither an unproblematic justtification for either value", although it got narrowed down to the value $1$. I think the question makes sense, especially seeing how this problem is handled in computer programming.

amWhy

@quid could you help me understand why the greyed out user appearing now in our chatroom keeps hanging around in this chat? That's exactly what previously suspended users from this site were doing while creating sockpupputs on this site to continue to reap havoc on this site.

HereToRelax

15:28

I don't know, but he can just refresh the transcript if he wants to be stealthy about it (like I used to). Although now I'm just gonna hang out over here.

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson Please edit the comment to clarify what it refers to

quid

@amWhy I'm not sure what I can answer; some users idle around in chats. They might have rooms as favorites and 'rejoin all' etc. As @HereToRelax says it is also possible to follow chats without being noticed at all. Thus to monitor access to a room and to draw conclusions is not very reliable.

amWhy

@HereToRelax True. Who knows. Their (not necessarily a "he") last recorded history on this stackoverflow in 2013. We can't know. But I've noted this behavior in three others. But there's no conclusion one can safely conclude.

@quid I was just coming to that! Thanks.

Pedro Tamaroff

@amWhy Not really. I have dropped by here perhaps once or twice, and I remember when the "plan" to organize this room was set out. I think I have talked about it when it was happening and gave my opinion about it, but I don't have the intention to do transcript surfing.

Teresa Lisbon

@XanderHenderson Hey, thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

Shaun

15:43

This question keeps getting vandalised by its user. I've reported it to the mods.

Pedro Tamaroff

I am all in favour of the community working together, my only concern (which I have voiced before) is the following:

You are a handful of (trusted) users that have quite strong opinions on what the site should look like and what questions are supposed to be like. This tips the scale in a very narrow direction, and I think this misrepresents what many users (also trusted) think.

I think that it is absolutely fine to care about duplicates, but it is also absolutely fine to answer a question (like the one Bill refers to) just to have a short interaction with someone that needed help.

HereToRelax

@Shaun what is happening there?

Pedro Tamaroff

@BillDubuque Yes, that's why I undeleted it. The OP was confused about what was happening and wanted some help, there was a flag raised.

quid

@PedroTamaroff what is "misrepresents" supposed to mean? Towards whom? There are/were dual activities. Fact is most users don't care either way. You know when there was a clear way for the community to express itself? The last mod election. Th community could have elected Matt Samuel for instance. It did not. Lets not spin narratives about misrepresentation when a main proponent of this room was recently elected as a moderator in face of a clear alternative of a different current.

3

Pedro Tamaroff

@quid Well, there are quite a few moderators other than the last one elected, last time I counted. ;)

quid

15:50

@PedroTamaroff that's besides the point.

Pedro Tamaroff

At any rate, if you'll like to keep policing the site for what you think is best, go ahead.

quid

@PedroTamaroff that last statement is completely out of line.

Shaun

Look at the edit history, @HereToRelax.

Also, the comments . . .

HereToRelax

Yeah I'm looking at the edit history. I guess the important part is at the beginning of the 50 edits right?

soupless

@HereToRelax Can I ask what question is this? It is my first time hearing something with 50 edits.

HereToRelax

15:55

@Shaun math.stackexchange.com/posts/4092746/revisions?page=2

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff Not asking for you to do so. But that was five years ago. How dare you come in and expect users to all just plain agree with you? Get real.

2

HereToRelax

@Shaun so the user just keeps rolling back the typesetting and the title and changing the variables and stuff?

Shaun

Precisely, @HereToRelax.

HereToRelax

dang, being an active member of this chat is going to make me insane how tragic

soupless

@HereToRelax Oh no. What is this edit monstrosity (Disclaimer: In my opinion, 5 to 10 edits should be enough, but almost 50??)

2

amWhy

16:01

@HereToRelax It can be stressful on all sides, for all of us. Hang in there.

Pedro Tamaroff

@amWhy I'm not expecting you to agree with me, not really.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff I'm not talking just me. You can explain yourself, just refrain from speaking in ways any other user (non mod) would be suspended for, or have comments removed. You can say whatever you want to say here, as long as it is careful and respectful. I feel it is pointless with me to speak to you, given your bias against me. But everything I said to you thus far as been valid, and you need to not assume your privilege as a moderator is superior to other voices. With that, I bid you well

Shaun

Thank you for stepping in, @HereToRelax :)

amWhy

Oh, and as I responded to @Pedro, he had already left, only after he said what he had to say, and that decided the matter. He does not give a damn of any input from users he's already dismissed.

Pedro Tamaroff

@amWhy Are you saying I removed a comment?

amWhy

16:14

@PedroTamaroff No. Don't get so defensive. I was saying, if any non-mod user said a few things you said here, it'd be flagged and deleted. Please behave with a mod's expected composure, which you just evidenced, is not your state of mind. I deleted my own comment above precisely because although you could have gotten away to saying that to me, it was too risky, because, as we all know "Thou shalt not say anything bad about any moderator ever!!! I'm not willing to discuss anything further with

you, @Pedro, now, because you are highly defensive, and not in a sincere position to work things out. Maybe some other time. But I am not in a position to be further hurt by you, now.

Pedro Tamaroff

@amWhy I think you can speak freely.

amWhy

Typo in my first comment, I meant, which you have not just evidenced. Sorry. Little time for editing for us peons on the site.

Pedro Tamaroff

@amWhy Apologies about my previous comment. I insist that you can speak freely.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff I appreciate that. But I have to teach in 35 minutes, and need to pump myself up and shrug off a few tears to be effective there. But I would like to continue, here, or where ever you'd prefer, because I want nothing more than to create more unity and mutual respect on math.se. Thanks for commenting, and your sincerity in your last two comments. Will that work for you?

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy It should work. We are all in this, and it is better if we unify our efforts than to find ourselves losing vital emotions and squabbling. Teach well!

35 minutes! 5 minutes for a breath in, breath out routine. Works well.

Pedro Tamaroff

16:27

@amWhy Of course. Good luck with your teaching.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff Thanks! ;D

Teresa Lisbon

It seems that we have a lot of common ground. We just have to work on finding it. @PedroTamaroff Please find yourself coming here more often, the more the moderator consensus and influence the smoother the functioning of the facilities.

I have seen only a few moderators frequent this room. Perhaps the rest either have other duties to tend to, or don't agree with the idea of this room. But if they don't talk, there's no point. I'd like more people to come here and critique, talk , have their problems, sort them out, and go home at least having shared a piece of their mind.

Peter

48 edits is in fact unacceptable.

Pedro Tamaroff

@soupless I have posted a comment and changed the title to one that is a bit more helpful for the search engine.

@Shaun Hope the title suits.

soupless

@PedroTamaroff Can you send a link of the question please?

Oh, never mind.

Shaun

16:52

@PedroTamaroff It does. Thank you for the help :)

Xander Henderson

17:51

@BillDubuque That comment was not in reply to you---I was still replying to @PedroTamaroff . It is a continuation of the previous comment.

@TeresaLisbon :)

@PedroTamaroff Regarding this comment: I laid out a case for why I believe that this question is not of high quality, and should be (at the very least) closed (if not deleted). The first time I did this, you objected to my tone (your only comment was "Sounds a bit dramatic"). I tried to lay out the case in a more neutral tone.

Your reply was, essentially, to mic drop.

I don't think that this is very productive. I genuinely worry that this place can become an echo chamber, and I wasn't trying to shut you up---I would appreciate your input.

I would like to understand why you believe that question meets the quality standards for the site, and why it shouldn't be deleted. Your argument seems to be that it has a couple of nice answers (okay... so close and lock the question? are the answers really that special?; rewrite the question? find a good dupe target for it?).

Or do you believe that there is something beyond a couple of (nice but fairly standard) answers?

Teresa Lisbon

@XanderHenderson In regards to "echo chamber", what can we do to prevent this from being one? Invite more people here to diversify opinion? Perhaps loosen the strings a little? Then rep-hunters will run amok. Perhaps, we all need a break? I took a break the day before yesterday and two high rep users had already answered 8 PSQs between themselves on that single day, which I went and reported here and got closed.

HereToRelax

I don't see what the problem with this place being an echo chamber is

I think the main problem is that most people don't have the energy to come in a chat like this

personally I have found energy in me to be active here and comment stuff

Teresa Lisbon

@Xander Let's be Markov (this is one of my favourite ones!) and forget about how we got here, now that we are here. Moving forward, how can CURED be less of an echo chamber and more of whatever you desire it to be? For starters, lets stop mentioning users by name or by indirect reference(links and so on). I have not referenced which high rep users I am talking about in any way, so I hope the above comment of mine is acceptable in this light.

HereToRelax

18:07

I don't have any ambitions for it to be anything

Teresa Lisbon

@HereToRelax The problem with this place being an echo chamber is that we could end up focusing and narrowing our viewpoint to the extent that every question gets scrutinized, and over scrutinized, and again, and again, and perhaps we seek to perfect those that cannot be perfected too much, a futile exercise. That particular line has to be set for us.

HereToRelax

My ambition is for more people to participate here

If you look at the downvote to upvote ratio of the people here you'll find it is very different to the one in the totality of MSE

So maybe I just want this chat to be more popular

Xander Henderson

@TeresaLisbon Ideally, yes. More voices would be better. I wish that there were more diversity of opinion here.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that most of the activity in this room is pretty uncontroversial. Most of the posts mentioned here are of very low quality, and almost no one would make a serious argument that they should be kept.

Teresa Lisbon

@XanderHenderson I'd like to say that I know a few people who are actively doing CURED activity without really coordinating with CURED. To give examples : one user I know is actively posting template comments on poor quality questions. I know about 5 to 10 users who close questions actively without really coming to CURED. We could bring them in.

Xander Henderson

However, there are the occasional borderline cases, and I think that having a larger diversity of opinions (i.e. greater participation by more people) would help us to (a) better deal with those situations and (b) better articulate to the rest of the Math SE community why some action was taken.

Teresa Lisbon

18:14

@XanderHenderson But apart from them, who could we realistically look at bringing in? I have only found myself casually informing users about CURED, and thankfully one or two users who do come here, I'll say I'm happy I got them here. I'd also say this whole-heartedly : Pedro came here today and I liked that. Why don't I see more moderators here like that? They know what to do, they have to come forward and contribute.

HereToRelax

I think that most people are not going to want to participate in cured

Xander Henderson

I became very frustrated by the GENTLE crowd---not because they seemed to actively working against the folk in this room (though I think that there was an element of this, too), but because they refused to engage. Their opinions were not heard here, because they judged this room to be toxic from the get-go.

HereToRelax

yeah, that's because it is toxic

but people need to be able to tolerate that more imho

Xander Henderson

@HereToRelax How so?

HereToRelax

It is conducive to people spending incredible amounts of time on things of very little consequence.

Xander Henderson

18:16

Folk here are, for the most part, pretty polite to each other, and willing to engage in discussion. We are, typically, willing to hear others out, and to explain our thinking.

HereToRelax

Yes, because the population of the chat is already pruned by the toxicity

Teresa Lisbon

@XanderHenderson Could you elaborate on what a GENTLE crowd is? I mean, I consider myself somewhat gentle. I don't think, apart from ONE case (which I admit was a foolish endeavour) that I've been rude to anyone on the site for any reason. Even prior to joining CURED. Perhaps you mean those that think they are rude to users by rejecting their questions and/or answers like we tend to do?

Xander Henderson

I don't think that you and I mean the same thing by "toxicity".

@TeresaLisbon A group of users decided to create a chatroom in order to encourage undelete and reopen votes. They called their room GENTLE, in contrast to this room, which was (at the time) called CRUDE.

HereToRelax

Oh I didn't know that

what a bunch of units

Teresa Lisbon

@XanderHenderson I could actually find myself doing something there as well, as long as the purpose of undeletion/reopening is clear to me and not conflicting with CURED work. But from what you say, they do seem to conflict.

I particularly enjoyed a couple of occasions where I helped users reopen questions. I certainly enjoy those occasions a lot, but I need to actually see what kind of questions come on GENTLE before I take any decisions.

Xander Henderson

18:21

@XanderHenderson For example, I would like to see Matt Samuel participate here more. I often disagree with him, but I think that his opinion is valuable. I would also like to see some of the more prolific answerers make an appearance from time to time, as I think that those folk don't engage much with the meta at all, and are shocked that there is a meta discussion about their habits.

@TeresaLisbon The issue is that this room already engages with requests for reopening or undeletion.

That is what the R and U stand for. :\

HereToRelax

well, the meta is not a very welcoming place

but yeah, I agree more normal users should probably be willing to take the L and post there

Xander Henderson

@HereToRelax I am not referring to "meta" as a place, but rather "the meta", as in the conversation about what Math SE is, how it should work, and what we should be doing to make that happen.

HereToRelax

oh I see

Xander Henderson

Math Meta SE (the website) is part of the meta, but so is chat. As are twitter rants and blog posts about how terrible and toxic the entire SE network is.

HereToRelax

Well I think their actions and voting patterns can give some ideas as to their postures

Teresa Lisbon

18:24

@XanderHenderson Ah no, I already know that! I was wondering if there was an explicit room that kind of worked against CURED, or scrutinized them, or something like that. That's what I got from the word GENTLE. On prolific answerers coming in : no , I would like to say they don't react well to criticism. I can give examples, but I don't wish to, in order to stay away from pinpointing users.

HereToRelax

I think that this post math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/32975/… is something similar

Teresa Lisbon

They just don't. It's either ignored, or brushed away, or even worse there are rants that come back at us.

Xander Henderson

@TeresaLisbon There was a specific room, but I think that it was not created in good faith. :\

@HereToRelax Yes, that post is part of the conversation about reopening and undeletion.

HereToRelax

Although I think that CURED acts against that post more than the other way around

I think many of the people who post there may not be completely aware of the mechanics behind how the initial post got deleted

Teresa Lisbon

@HereToRelax Not including you here. Deleting that comment. Perhaps I have to be more specific.

HereToRelax

18:29

Oh no

I meant in general

Teresa Lisbon

I know a list of users that are doing this. I cannot disclose that list. It does not include you @HereToRelax. HUNDRED percent.

But yes, it includes a few people who appear frequently as answerers for the questions posted in this room.

amWhy

18:43

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@HereToRelax Most questions are closed via the review queue, made up of site wide users who chose whether or not a question flagged for closure should be closed. Your targeting a few users for all close and delete votes, but that happens within six review queues, more than it happens here. Please refrain from blaming CURED users for doing what this site is all about, and for which there are many contributors. Search the review queues, and note the range of users involved.

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson Yes, I know that, but it may not be clear to others, which is why I suggested editing it to make it clear who you are replying to (else it could be easily misconstrued to mean something very far from what you intended).

amWhy

Do not speak about matters you clearly haven't much clue about. Your targeting of CURED and its users for all the ills of the site make it clear you have little clue about how the broader sites and privileges, even apart from CURED impact you. Please no more excuses.

@BillDubuque Indeed, it helps everyone in chat to know to whom a comment or reply is directed.

Bill Dubuque

@amWhy But your prior comment ("Do not speak...") is another ambiguous example. Who are you replying to? (I know its not me, but will others?)

amWhy

18:58

Here I just failed to ping who I was addressing: @Here ToComplain: my three comments above my comment to Bill were responses to your uninformed previous comments in blaming CURED for ALL close and delete votes. Now that, is ridiculous.

@BillDubuque I was posting to own that fact and to clarify. Posted a second after you already did, my post is just below your last post. ;-)

HereToRelax

Oh sorry, I left to do some gardening, I thought this part was over

@amWhy what is this baseless ad-hominem supposed to accomplish?

@amWhy I don't understand what this means

But I generally agreed with you deleting all of the previous stuff. I just want to remain in cured to keep up with things and voice my opinion on actions that happen here.

amWhy

@HereToRelax That is perfectly fine. But you also need to, and we all need to, keep conversation civil. I will work hard at that. I hope other regulars will work at that as well. Else we just "shut each other down", which doesn't solve anything. I hope you and all users, including myself, can accept that as a goal here?

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Pedro Tamaroff

Some thoughts:

1. *High* quality questions are not the norm. They are rare, and that's what happens when people are learning mathematics. Asking good question is remarkably difficult, and we shouldn't be worried that a question is not "high quality". I think sometimes, out of the good intention of "making the site better", we may be forgetting about the place where we were when we started learning.

2. The OP says they tried a few binomial identities to no avail. Sometimes users are truly cluless about what to do, and maybe it is not a bad idea to engage in the comments first before laying…

Looking at the history of this post, I see no comment by any of the people that closed with the intention of engaging with the OP to improve the post.

HereToRelax

I just want to say that I have no problem with people not being civil towards me, I try to be respectful of other people but if I don't get the same treatment it's not a huge problem for me

Pedro Tamaroff

This is very worrying!

HereToRelax

19:08

Also, feel free to delete any of my comments on this chat at any point in time

Just please don't do the same with content on the actual site.

@PedroTamaroff I doubt you're worried about it to be completely honest. Although I can totally see it being true.

Pedro Tamaroff

That comment is a followup to my previous one.

HereToRelax

oh my bad

amWhy

@HereToRelax My last message sent to Trash was not yours, it was anothers who used inflammatory language

Pedro Tamaroff

@HereToRelax I think you are in your right to request people interact respectfully with you.

HereToRelax

Yeah, but I really don't need people to do it.

Pedro Tamaroff

19:12

@XanderHenderson (With respect to the "mic dropping" and leaving the room, I had a busy day so I was in and out of the rooms. I don't think you should read into this at all.) (cc: @amWhy)

amWhy

I cannot try to interact when two people of simultaneously pinging me and pinging each other. Have fun in your love-fest, @Pedro and @here. I've got better things than to be attacked by one user while trying to respond to another while seven, now eight comments interrupt.

Teresa Lisbon

@PedroTamaroff My response to this is that potential answerers are to be helping out in maintaining site quality. If you are planning to answer a question it should be your responsibility that everything is in place, you know the question, you know the background of the user, you have meticulously prepared for future responses from the user, and so on.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff What post? Isn't it also an answerers responsibilily to help the asker improve their question, lest the question is closed, and their answer is in jeopardy. Since our rep hunters want, more than anything, whether a quesiton is interesting or not, is to earn rep, it would be in their self interest to help the asker improve the question. Also, I shouldn't have to make up for all the deadweight of users never bothering to join in even a basic level of user moderation.

Teresa Lisbon

@PedroTamaroff I did go through a phase where I engaged actively with many askers. Everywhere I took an action, I left a comment. But here I outline two issues.

One, is that leaving a comment unfortunately places a burden of "completion" on me. I feel I must complete the task there (whether a user response leading to a closure, or an edit that came, anything). That can be a problem especially if I have to write 15 comments back and forth to the user. I'd be ok doing this and dedicating myself to one question, IF ...

Pedro Tamaroff

@TeresaLisbon Sure. What I think is that your standards of site quality (or what you think a question should look like) may differ from that of other trusted users. If a user replied and has taken the time to do this, I think it is minimum decency to consider not deleting their answers because the OP didn't do as much research as wanted?

@amWhy Not sure people are "rep hunters". Some people just like to answers questions, really...

amWhy

19:19

Sorry @Teresa, I was adding my comment while you were posting. Indeed. This site would not function if not for the volunteer janitors, who earn very little rep, so moderators don't have to work so hard, and rep hunters can continue hunting rep, and nothing else.

Teresa Lisbon

@PedroTamaroff I certainly agree with that, and I also agree with you in that I may need to loosen the noose a little!

Pedro Tamaroff

@TeresaLisbon I agree. And I think that sometimes engaging is a little more work, but may help prevent genuinely good willed users/posts fall under a delete hammer.

Teresa Lisbon

But, here's my point : IF there were people helping me out, I would be grateful. Very grateful. There are only 25 people here. We have "great energy" to work only because we have to do the job for ourselves. If 500 people were there , I could actually focus on a question.

Pedro Tamaroff

@TeresaLisbon You do not really have to take it upon you to clean up the site!

Teresa Lisbon

@PedroTamaroff No, the problem is , this site gave me so much. It really did. I am giving back. That's my aim of doing this.

And of course, contributing to the mathematics, but I want to see the quality of the site increase.

amWhy

19:22

@PedroTamaroff And not everything CURED does is ruthless. Some of us want this site to not become a "do my homework for me" site. My biggest objection is to the posting of and answering to, "do my work for me". But those kind of questions have grown exponentially on this site.

Teresa Lisbon

That DOESN'T mean that I don't encourage elementary questions.

Pedro Tamaroff

That's fair. I just hope my point regarding some collateral damage happening may help you see another side of the story.

Teresa Lisbon

But, I just want people to take more time : forming questions, forming answers, forming opinions, forming , well anything. Not to ruin spontaneity, I remember reading why FGITW was apparently fine in an article by Jeff Atwood, but I don't know : I just think how can an answer in 45 seconds , or even two minutes be well thought out, prepared for responses in just two minutes? @PedroTamaroff See you!

Pedro Tamaroff

Of course. I have to get going now. Bye!

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff That's what we're all trying to do, and yet we get punished by retaliatory downvotes and deletions, by mods like yourself, on meta, to the point that it is now dominated by whiners complaining... Where have you been, in addressing these issues.

@Pedro Again, I guess I got cut out of yet another discussion with you. Oh well. I tried.

Teresa Lisbon

19:26

@amWhy Let's actually take in the fact that there was a conversation. It's a beginning. The moral of the story is that we need more people to agree with us. Far more. We have the rush to keep going. I hope your class went well! I'm putting some heavy metal on the headphones, I need it for the crawl.

amWhy

One last thing, @PedroTamaroff, (I saw you came back, and then left, after I last commented, which tells me nothing I didn't already no about you. You have to know, I know from the inside, and now from outside of "the insider's view of what how one thinks, or at least tells others about why they answer anything whatsoever that crawls into our site... It's no guess, no speculation, I've been on both sides of the street. If you want to speak with me, create a room in which we can do so.

@Pedro I ask that because if not, you're happy engaging with the next user who comes along, then "have to go."

HereToRelax

@TeresaLisbon lisbon, I just wanted to say that out of all of the people whose answer is on top in one of your questions, only 4 of them have more downvotes than upvotes/

amWhy

@TeresaLisbon With who? Conversation between whom?

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy With Pedro. It's the first time I've seen them on CURED in a long time, at least that's what I'm left with at the end of all this. It could have been so much more, but it was this much.

@HereToRelax It so happens that I work with such questions specifically. The ones where answers are downvoted and so on are brought by others. I do this out of choice, but in the process I also bring some questions which may not have been noticed and have answers which then get downvoted and so on. I call this a crawl, looking out for these kind of questions. I'd also like to remark that yes, I do this by looking out for patterns which I observed before joining CURED.

HereToRelax

I don't think I explained myself correctly. I looked at all the questions that you have asked and at the profiles of every single person who came out on top in an answer to one of those questions, and I counted how many had more downvotes than upvotes, and that number is 4.

amWhy

19:36

@TeresaLisbon Sure, scroll back and all I received was two profound insults which were clearly an attempt to undermine me. And every time he returned to continue and addressed me, in my efforts to respond, first @Here stole the floor to make his request for a 15th time, and got Rob's ear. Then when He came back, most of the conversation was dominated in your interaction with Rob. He wrote me off. So I am sorry I cannot share in your enthusiasm.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Fair enough.

HereToRelax

@amWhy I just wanted to state this is false.

Teresa Lisbon

@HereToRelax Ok, what do I make of that? I don't know : I've never actually had a downvote on any recent question of mine, so I don't know what may have led to those answer downvotes. Perhaps I will take a look sometime. I don't get notified of downvoted answers unless something happens to the question itself. But thank you for looking through it anyway.

HereToRelax

No, my sentiment was just that, these users who answered your questions don't like to downvote a bunch of stuff.

maybe that could convince you to be more lenient as well.

amWhy

@HereToRelax So? You have shown yourself to jump to conclusions, you have no clue and cannot conclude anything based on noticing. You come with bias, and seek anything that you can construe, even though mostly incorrectly, to verify your bias. If you want to be here, please stop doing so. And you are still clinging to your feelings of rejection and unfairness based only on posts that are questionable. Don't be here just for your benefit, it aint all about you

HereToRelax

19:42

Your last comment seems to imply that being here benefits me in some way.

I am completely convinced exactly the opposite is the case.

amWhy

@HereToRelax It's neither true or false. Own it: it's your opinion, unsolicited. Please stop interjecting in others' exchanges, like you hijacked robjohn. Please show some respect.

HereToRelax

what?

Teresa Lisbon

@HereToRelax Aha, I see! No, I can't see it. My questions were well thought out and presented, as per site standards (this is not gloating : I can put them here for scrutiny if you wish). I think that the questions I downvote are (mostly) what I like to say are not good ones. This is the "question bias" : I downvote bad questions. My answers weren't downvoted because they were corrected and benefitted my question, whose clarity helped the answerers.

HereToRelax

I don't know what you are talking about

amWhy

@HereToRelax You really have difficulty reading what's written. No you are here only for your benefit. If you cannot think outside of yourself, you do not belong here. That's a concise summary of what I said. Play dumb. I'm done here, because you are proving yourself to be off topic, to keep making the focus you. I'm not falling for your game anymore.

HereToRelax

19:44

I don't know what you are saying concerning Robjohn

I have no idea

Like literally no idea, I have also nothing but good things to say about him.

???

amWhy

@HereToRelax How nice. Goodbye. ???

HereToRelax

I have no idea what you are talking about concerning robjohn. What the heck?

At this point I'm just completely confused

@TeresaLisbon Yeah your questions all seem extremely good. I was just mentioning it because you were talking about "giving back", but the people who wrote those answers are in a majority "upvoters" or whatever. It's not a great argument I agree.

amWhy

@Teresa I get how you felt after spending so much time, and when I gave the benefit of the doubt and gave so much of my time. Some people gonna whine, no matter how long we speak with them. I thought we ironed things out, yesterday, like you thought you did the day before. We did nothing wrong by reaching out; some people play people for their own ends, or for attention, I don't know. Anyway, I'll catch you in a little bit.

Teresa Lisbon

@amWhy Sure, we'll catch up, till then I need to turn the heavy metal back on!

amWhy

@HereToRelax NOYB

@TeresaLisbon Hah! ;D

@Here One quick point (no response needed), it is not a question. Just an observation to share. click on my icon, and you will see in the list of actions "ignore this user" Any user, including you, can ignore any user on chat. I've relied on that before, and will again, if the need arises. You might find it helpful too. So I wanted to share that, and so you know that if you never seem to get replies from someone, that perhaps they've ignored you, and hence never see the replies. :-)

HereToRelax

20:00

Thanks, I don't think I'll use that but it's good to know if I stop getting answers from people.

amWhy

@PedroTamaroff Right, and when you dropped in, first you try to humiliate me, then you wished me well teaching, you came back, (thank you for that) and You posted a long list of points for me to consider (and I was trying to respond to the first distraction, and then a second, and after those distractions, you bowed out.) So you are still behaving avoidantly, or did it not occur to you that I'd want to comment on your points, or did you just think they weren't work sticking around for.

KReiser

very low effort, please close

Teresa Lisbon

@KReiser I surmise there is a duplicate. It'd be helpful to link.

Actually no, maybe not. It's even more obvious as the first comment suggests.

amWhy

20:49

@PedroTamaroff When will you open your eyes and ears to the other side of the story, not the only side you defend? You have no right preaching when you clearly see only one side of the picture. So hence I posed the question. When you started pre college and in college, you always asked exception questions, I never remember any time you did. Well, times on math.se now, things of changed, including higher standards and by far, we are flooded with homework problem statements, including from exams.

Xander Henderson

22:17

@PedroTamaroff There is a lot to respond to here. It is going to take some time.

(1) I don't think that anyone is demanding mathematical perfection. However, there is a world of different between "Here is my problem. I tried some things. Didn't work." and "Here is my problem. It comes from [BOOK], which I am working out of as part of [CLASS]. I tried some things; here is my attempt, which didn't work."

All of this is spelled out in the "How to ask a good question" thread, which is linked when a question is closed for lacking context. After a question is closed, the asker is given access to appropriate resources.

4

@PedroTamaroff (2) Closing a question is not a "final decision". It gives the asker time to improve the question. As noted above, the closure comes with an explanation and reference for resources. If the user is still confused, they are welcome to ask for clarification in the comments. However, experience has shown that most users won't both to make any attempt to improve a post after it has been answered.

This argues for quickly closing such questions, and not reopening them simply because someone provided an answer before it was closed.

4

@PedroTamaroff (3) I'm not sure that I like conflating "trusted user" with "high XP user". I know that the software does this, but I don't think that the amount of reputation a user has earned here should automatically be correlated with "trust", as the activities required to earn reputation are orthogonal to the activities which improve the overall quality of the site.

4

In any event, "the question is of low quality but has high quality answers" seems to be an argument in favor of closing the question, but leaving it undeleted. I'll note that this is an alternative I proposed above. It is not my preferred alternative (as it kind of indicates to future users that such questions are a model for acceptability), but it is a better alternative than leaving the question open.

I also suggested a rewrite, and further closure as a duplicate (assuming that there isn't already a good dupe-target out there).

3

Do you have any response to those possible actions?

amWhy

22:51

@KReiser Open for deletion.

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$Mathematics$ CURED