The Velodrome

Criggie

00:01

butter works for me - fried bread, fried rice, fried pasta :)

Sam

03:03

@AndyP But of course.. there are many ways. Skip salting the rice, and add instead soy sauce, rice wine vinegar, and sesame oil, in the ratio of maybe 8:4:1 (sesame oil is potent and will overwhelm the flavour, and you probably don't want to add too much fat anyway). For pasta, fry crushed garlic in grapeseed oil for one minute, add any herbs and any nuts you like. If you want it even faster, add instead a dollop of prepared pesto.

If you don't mind getting more proteins (remember that discussion?), quinoa and lentils (separately) are good bets. etc..

Renaud

04:28

@AndyP Between a entry level/alu MTB and a similarly spec'd hybrid, most of the time the hybrid is a better choice. The main issue being that well spec'd hybrids are very rare on the market.

Renaud

04:39

And it also depends on the "biking environment". Personal example: in Italy for instance, you somehow have to go "extreme": bad infrastructure, so it's either road (where it's better to take a road bike) or an MTB (MTB tracks are usually very rough). In Belgium, the infrastucture is much better (and more flat), and you can go anywhere with an hybrid/gravel (even on so called MTB tracks). From what you describe, Scotland would be like Italy.

MaplePanda

06:38

@Renaud There's the flat bar versions of the Specialized Diverge gravel bike

MaplePanda

06:52

aliexpress.com/item/…

How does this tool look?

Thinking of picking one up. I wish I could find a decent steel BB wrench on there instead, but all the ones which fit BB51/standard Shimano BB pattern are either really short handled, or are the open-end style wrench

Criggie

07:04

That looks surprisingly decent.

Probably do you fine for decades as a home gamer. Just don't hammer on it ever. A cheater bar would be more acceptable

Erlkoenig

Do you really want a tool made of soft metal for a high-torque-application?

Andy P

07:35

My argument would be that I just don't see any advantages to a hybrid over a hardtail. On your example of bike paths, a hardtail (of the xc variety) is only a little slower, but is more comfortable and has the versatility to go many more places.
The main plus points for a hybrid would be that it always comes with mudguard/rack mounts, but with a little searching you can find that on a mtb too.

Since gravel bikes became mainstream that now does the job hybrids used to do MUCH better and is a clear winner for bike path/commuting type applications

@Criggie That may end up being the answer if I can't find a good way to get carbs :(

@Sam Googled that mixture for rice. Solid idea but not really going to work for me. That'll add ~5-10g carbs when i'm looking for more like ~50g per meal

Sam

08:21

@AndyP I think I see. You'd like to introduce additional carbs over a carb-rich dish for variety. I was thinking more along the lines of what to do to plain rice / plain pasta to make it palatable / enjoyable, while adding as little as possible of other food groups.

Renaud

@MaplePanda Specialized also has the Sirrus (X) for those who want a more upright position.

Renaud

10:09

@AndyP For someone with a "non enthusiast" budget (and limited training), do you really think that a gravel is a much better choice than an hybrid? To take an example: for the price of Pathlite 6 (1.2k€, XT drivetrain 36T chainring 10/51 cassette, hydraulic brakes, air suspension), you have a Decathlon gravel (1.1k€ Apex 40T chainring, 11/42T cassette, cable disc brakes). Personally, I wouldn't be so categorical.

Erlkoenig

10:27

@Renaud Unless you live in a country with great bike infrastructure, I'd always recommend the gravel bike, because then you can avoid cars and ride through forests. Or an MTB of course. Road-Only bikes (independent of handlebar type) are for people with nerves of steel 😉

Andy P

10:39

A better comparison to the pathlite 6 would be the grail al 6 (yes, I appreciate this is a little more expensive).
The decathlon (triban) gravel bike also comes in a 2x setup with shimano 105 at the same price as the apex version.

I just think traditional hybrids were never particularly good, and now with more modern equipment they are basically obsolete.

If I was shopping for a hybrid i'd be looking for something with a more modern twist.
Take the cost of the (useless) suspension fork out of the bike and then you can spend that on more appropriate features.
Sticking with canyon for examples: The 'Commuter' 6:
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/hybrid-bikes/commuter-bikes/commuter/commuter-6/2797.html?

Belt drive, rack, guards and decent dynamo lighting built in as standard

Michael

@AndyP intentionally adding carbs?? Are you like, a crazy person? Just eat a ton of pasta, bread, couscous, rice, sugar water, fruit, müsli, porridge, chocolate

Andy P

Well that's what i'm doing right now, but even then its not enough some days. Like for dinner I will have pasta with a half baguette as a starter.

I'm thinking maybe I need to shuffle my meal times a little and try to have a 4th proper meal (2 lunches 11:00 and 13:30?)

Michael

yes, add a fourth meal

above 2500kcal/day you need a fourth meal. Above 3500kcal you just eat all day long.

in my experience

my sister and her boyfriend eat like 10Mcal/day together, it’s crazy :D

Andy P

10:55

yesterday was an unremarkable training day and I needed 2750 to break even.
bigger weekday training can be more like 3-3200.
And weekly long ride 4k+

How bigger guys manage I have no idea. They have higher baseline and pushing more watts. probably need +500-1k more even

Michael

just add an extra pizza every day, it’s not that hard

bigger portions, an extra meal …

eating a lot while on the bike …

put a ton of olive oil and butter on everything …

if you try to hit 4Mcal/day with vegetables you are going to have a hard time :p

What’s the unused cable frame stop on this bike for? o.O bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/84474/…

Andy P

@Michael yeah, i'm trying my best to avoid taking too much fat and to get the increases via more carbs if possible. But worst comes to worst then yes, less healthy options it is. I've been topping up with ice cream last few weeks.....

Michael

@AndyP why more carbs?

Renaud

@AndyP Finally something we agree on: canyon commuter are excellent choices ;)

Michael

in my experience it’s hard to not get half of your calories from carbs

Andy P

11:03

Making sure glycogen supplies are as full as possible so I can hit the next day with best quality possible.
I've been aiming for 60/20/20 split, but reality is coming more like 55/25/20.
On really big days the protein % drops because not much point in 200g of protein per day

But right now i'm in a spot where i'd rather be slightly overeating and maximise recovery than lose more weight. I'm already looking pretty much like a tdf mountain domestique

Michael

I’d just eat more during the rides

add some glucose and maltodextrin to your water

eat chocolate bars

Andy P

I'm usually taking around 40g carbs/hr on endurance rides up to 2hrs. Aim for 60g/hr on longer rides but especially with solids can end up with GI distress.
Usually ~60g/hr for an interval session which I tolerate fine for those shorter durations

Michael

wow, that’s already a lot for training rides, IMHO

you sure you are not overthinking things? :D

I wouldn’t eat anything during interval sessions. No time and breath for eating anyway :D

Andy P

I'm sure i'm hitting my best numbers ever at my lightest weight ever with the biggest leg muscles ever. So i'd like to think not overthinking things. But its not sustainable when every week the scales say 0.2kg less than the week before :-(

And yes, I used to take less on training rides.
Had good effect on how I felt on really long rides (probably promoted better fat burning). But i also lost my top end power

Michael

11:21

just eat a ton. Eat half a kilogram of the cheapest, sugar-iest cereal for breakfast and you already have 1500kcal :p

oh, probably more like 2500kcal

you can put maltodextrin into everything

Andy P

@Michael I was trying to google if I could do that this morning but didnt get any good results. I figured that should be a decent option

Michael

just be aware that it’s the emptiest carbs you can get

no vitamins, no minerals, no protein

I used to use glucose + maltodextrin + table salts on longer rides

or just tape a few chocolate bars to your top tube and keep on munching

Andy P

11:38

did you read the thing from Nils van der Poel about his training for olympics?
He was reduced to chugging cartons of double cream just to get his kcals for the day.....

Michael

I think people just take a strange pleasure in complaining about not being able to eat enough (while everyone else is trying to lose weight)

in practice it’s really not that difficult, we live in a post scarcity world after all

my sister managed just fine

without resorting to chugging empty calories

Andy P

To be fair I did the deliberately losing weight bit earlier in the year after my winter as a couch potato. The constant mild hunger isn't a great feeling for sure, but its really not that difficult. Just have a shortfall of ~250-500kcal/day and the weight comes off.

You should read his article - he was burning insane number of kj.
Here's a sample from his base training:
Monday: 7h biking at 260W
Tuesday: 6h biking 250W
Wednesday: 2h x-country skiing + 4h biking at 250W
Thursday: 7h biking at 265W
Friday: 6h biking at 240W

Michael

that sounds like way too much training honestly

unless this is one outlier week

Erlkoenig

Power like an ebike 😁

Michael

@Erlkoenig with more range :D

Andy P

11:53

he had a VERY unusual training plan.
he decided people made training far too overcomplicated.
So he made 3 training phases:

Base - where his objective was to log as many hrs of z2 as possible with the objective to build a huge aerobic engine. Main objective of this was actually so he could absorb and recover from the next phase

His next phase was the threshold phase (which was perhaps even more nutty):
Monday: 5h biking (5min 200W, 6min 260W, 4x30min 401W with 5min rest, 2,5h 220W)
Tuesday: 5h biking (5min 200W, 6min 260W, 5x20min 405W with 4min rest, 3h 220W)

4x30 @ 400W!! in the middle of a 5hr ride 🤯

And all the more remarkable since cycling isnt even his main sport

Michael

12:18

do you follow all the athletes? o.O

Andy P

No, can't remember how i stumbled across this guy and his crazy training.
I do follow a few pros on strava that don't strip out their power numbers.

Ganna is a MONSTER. Over unders with 460W unders.......

Kwiato got injured and is reduced to sad 45min spins on zwift. suspect his TDF is over before it starts :(

Erlkoenig

13:14

@Michael Hehe, you know why ebikes have such limited range? To improve range, you'd need more battery packs and switch between them. But on the common Bosch system, you can only connect 2 batteries at once, so any other batteries would be unconnected. Manually replugging wires would be possible, but the unconnected battery would legally count as cargo, and since it's a battery it's hazardous cargo, and that can't be transported by bike. That's why you can only have 2 ebike batteries!

Andy P

@Erlkoenig What happens if you connect 4 batteries and have an additional set of switches? Basically a splitter cable on the original Bosch harness?

surely its no longer cargo when it's wired into the bike

Erlkoenig

@AndyP That's the question, I suppose that would work. Someone should make an automatic switchbox for that :)

@AndyP Yes exactly... When it's connected, it's no longer hazardous cargo and perfectly fine to transport on a bike

Michael

@Erlkoenig you could just have a bigger battery pack? The question is where you’d put it

Erlkoenig

Not sure Bosch allows you to make custom battery packs

Next question: Is there a limit where adding further battery packs would increase weight so much that range would actually be reduced? Is it like the rocket equation?

Renaud

@Michael If you can make a custom battery pack, you can make a custom frame too. Stromer has 963Wh batteries in the downtube for example.

Andy P

13:29

@Renaud That's a pretty beefy battery. you need to be leaning HARD on the assist to run out of range with that

Michael

@Erlkoenig Of course

Renaud

@Erlkoenig I would not be surprised the problem is more supply constraint/price than what is technically achievable.

Michael

but for land vehicles it’s not that much of a problem

Andy P

Side question.
Does anyone else feel like most ebikes are designed a little bit wrong?
We see relatively high power (250W) motors that strain and are prone to overheating at high torque (low speed climbing).
For the purpose of biking wouldn't it be better in most cases to have ~75W motor designed for higher torque?

Renaud

@AndyP Stromers are Speedelecs, with 850W motors. Not your average ebike.

(and shall I had: hybrids :p - sorry, stronger than me)

Andy P

13:33

If we had more sensible sized motors (like 75W) we would instantly solve the range issues since we could use much more modestly sized batteries

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Power = RPM * Torque! So with low power (75W?) comes low torque and low RPM!

You can run a 250W motor at 75W just fine, it's just slightly heavier than a 75W motor, so not a huge range difference

Renaud

@AndyP it's the approach taken by Specialized for their SL ranges.

Erlkoenig

A 250W motor can produce much more torque than a 75W motor at the same RPM; also smaller motors are usually better for higher RPM's...

Renaud

bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a28395571/… (12.3kg, 120miles claimed range with the extender, 80 without)

Andy P

From my recollection of (much smaller) electric motors you can buy them configured in many ways. You buy them for a power rating, but then have different options for max rpm vs torque - basically related to an internal gear ratio iirc.
I dont see why you couldnt do similar for bikes

Erlkoenig

13:38

Sure gearing helps, but lower power makes climbing worse...

At a given speed, the 250W motor will produce much more torque than a 75W motor, regardless of gearing (speed and torque measured at gear output).

Andy P

Well this is where you need to define 'worse'
Like how much power does your ebike actually need when its designed for pedal assist rather than being a motorbike.
Right now we have 'assist' giving more power than very fit riders.
A 75W assist should still be able to climb hills, just not climb them at 25km/h

Erlkoenig

also, 250W is just continuous power, peak power is much higher and the "peaks" are allowed to be pretty long

gschenk

@AndyP there are still a lot of people who don't ride drop bars. Entry level hard tail MTB are often very "progressive" and not at all comfortable over long distances. Especially since a rather upright position cannot be achieved. I shouldn't like to dismiss the bike of choice for a vast majority of European riders that easily. And it is often a conscious choice since uninformed often tend to buy BSO MTB.

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Sure if slower climbing is fine, a smaller motor is okay. Depends on what you want (transporting cargo? Comfortable heavy bike?)

Michael

as long as the motor can produce its maximum power continuously at >70rpm I see no reason to care about torque

unless you have to accelerate a cargo bike where you need high torque from zero RPM

Erlkoenig

13:47

@Michael If the maximum power is 1W, then the torque will be tiny at >70RPM, so unless the bike weights nothing the motor won't do anything

Andy P

You'd need to be transporting a whole lot of cargo to need 250W assist.
If you think that your average 85kg MAMMIL can ride many hours in mountains with a 200W FTP - why would anyone ever need a +250W assist.

Erlkoenig

Ebikes are heavy, so you need the additional 50W!

Also, the MAMIL rides for fun so it's ok to climb slowly; if you go to work uphill, 25 km/h is desirable

Andy P

@Michael I'm not sure what the latest generation of motors are like, but models from a few years ago seemed to suffer a lot from overheating and loss of performance when asked to do high power low rpm work. A motor specifically designed with more torque in mind should mitigate that

gschenk

@AndyP I read until there before I realised you weren't talking about Mathieu van der Poel.

Erlkoenig

Always remember: Power = Torque * RPM, but all three factors are limited: Exceeding power limit will overheat, exceeding torque will break something, exceeding RPM will destroy bearings or whatever. So if you accelerate at constant power, at some point torque will be reduced as RPM gets too high. Shiftable gears help with that...

Andy P

13:54

@gschenk Haha, yes, most people probably see the surname and assume that.

gschenk

@AndyP really? There might be more people who are interested in speed skating than cyclo-cross. Maybe even in the Netherlands.

Andy P

In the UK i dont think there's anyone that's interested in either :P
But there are people interested in road cycling so they heard of MvdP

Michael

@Erlkoenig yes of course, but for a middle motor the RPM is pretty much around 90rpm

gschenk

@Erlkoenig low RPM torque either requires reduction gears or a heavy motor (many poles) that will do with much power too.

Erlkoenig

I once suggested on a forum that we should have a category of light ebikes with e.g. 100W power but no/high speed limit. For sportive riders who want a little extra power. E.g. for e-road-bikes. People were hating and throwing insults over my suggestion of having less than 250W power because having to climb slower is an inhumane crime.

gschenk

14:00

@AndyP I forgot MvdP went to road as well.

@Erlkoenig e-road bikes (road e-bikes) seem rather pointless indeed, away from mountains.

Michael

@gschenk because of the regulatory speed limit

gschenk

yep, that's what I mean.

Michael

if the law would say that you can still support with up to 100W above 25km/h …

Erlkoenig

Exactly, that would be lovely!

gschenk

I recently borrowed my bike to someone who rides long tours on an e-bike (hybrid). Usually with motor on low setting. Found lighter, better rolling bike equivalent in effort to e-bike.

Michael

14:03

would make it possible for normal people to ride a road bike at ~40km/h continuously in flat terrain.

Erlkoenig

When I'm 80 I'd love to speed around just as I was earlier, by using some extra electrical watts...

gschenk

What counts for e-bike though was much more sturdy.

Andy P

It makes perfect sense to me.
The 25km/h restriction is already a bit odd and makes ebikes strange beasts on the flat.
And with +100W you can already climb at a very nice speed just slowing down on the very steepest stuff

Michael

just change the regulations. Up to 600W below 25km/h, up to 100W above 25km/h

Erlkoenig

"Just", hahaha

The stupid EU regulations basically crippe pedelecs AND S-pedelecs. Probably a conspiracy by the automotive industry to make them unattractive

Michael

14:05

or remove all regulations for eBikes, after all, cars don’t have bulit-in limits on speed or power either

gschenk

@AndyP in particular, since so many e-bike riders are not good enough at handling a bike at 25, and what is more, try to force that speed onto others in city traffic that usually goes at about 18 +/- 2 km/h

Erlkoenig

But cars require a license ;-) motorbikes have power limits too

Andy P

@Michael cars also require a driving license

gschenk

@Michael you can have that, when you put a number plate on it an drive your motorbike wherever it is permitted.

Michael

@gschenk you can easily ride >30km/h without a motor and >70km/h in downhill sections

gschenk

14:07

I don't want to have speed pedelecs on 80% of bike infrastructure.

Michael

a motor doesn’t change your ability or inability to control the bike and follow road laws

Erlkoenig

@gschenk I'd be fine with S-pedelecs on bike paths if they switch to a pedelec-mode (25 km/h limit or 100W limit or something like that)

gschenk

@Michael yes I can ride that. But quite a lot of e-bikers cannot. Especially the most dangerous kind cannot.

@Erlkoenig yep. That would be perfect.

Andy P

@Michael it does however change how much damage you can cause when you screw it up. heavier things going faster and out of control isn't that desirable

Erlkoenig

Having S-pedelects slower (45 km/h) than inner city car traffic (50 km/h) AND banning them from bike paths is SO stupid

gschenk

14:08

As it is now they make less sense than a motor scooter. (Bromfiets <- favourite new dutch word)

@Erlkoenig let me clarify that for you. "Inner city car traffic at 50 km/h is SO stupid."

Erlkoenig

The SZ newspaper described riding an S-pedelec in Munich as a near-death-experience o.O

@gschenk Well, that too

Andy P

So how would you guys enforce that? Riders have to pass through some sort of e-gate that wirelessly changes mode of ebike when they enter bike path. because you surely cant have user responsible to do it

gschenk

There are roads where high speed makes sense. Most of the time it doesn't. It is also not a big burden to drive 5 km with a top speed of 30 (average is not reduced much anyway).

Renaud

@gschenk Totally agree, 30km/h speed limits in cities rules :p

gschenk

@AndyP suggestion when that was introduced was some light signal on the bike that indicates bike/s-pedelec mode. Was dismissed as too complicated and unenforceable.

Erlkoenig

14:11

@AndyP Same way as you enforce other traffic rules... In switzerland, S-pedelecs are super popular because they have more sane rules, but across the border S-pedelecs are super rare

Andy P

TOTALLY disagree.
Any speed limit thats slowing down bike traffic is too slow.
Nothing annoys me more on a bike ride than 20mph zones where i'm getting held up because of speed limit

Renaud

@AndyP There are projects of laws to do it based on the GPS position.

gschenk

I wouldn't mind speed limits on inner city bike paths. Most of them are not build to ride faster than 20. (I do ride faster, but that often is not responsible)

Erlkoenig

You can ride reckless on any kind of bike, so forbidding switchable S-pedelecs on bike paths doesn't help

Andy P

@Erlkoenig lol, same way other rules are enforced = no enforcement except the odd speed camera located to make revenue

gschenk

14:13

@Renaud dificult with cycle paths parallel to streets.

Erlkoenig

Nothing prevents cars or motorbikes from driving at 100 km/h on bikepaths. But those vehicles are still allowed.

Andy P

@gschenk difficult with current tech. I think Galileo may be able to handle it once its into wide spread usage

Erlkoenig

Why demand a technological speed limiter just for S-pedelecs?

gschenk

@Erlkoenig but you cannot hide the fact after an accident. With an S-pedelec someone speeding and causign an accident can always deny having had it in speed mode.

Unless there is some records.

Renaud

@gschenk I think the idea was more to define "zones". In urban centers, limited to 25km/h rather than something based on being on a bike path

gschenk

14:16

@Renaud that's indeed a better idea.

Erlkoenig

I can speed like crazy on my non-e-bike on a bike path and cause an accident too...

@Renaud But only if cars have the same limit in the urban center

Andy P

@Erlkoenig You can, but to do so you spent time on your bike and built fitness (and probably bike handling). Giving the ability for more and less experienced/skilled riders to cause accidents with bigger consequences is not really that desirable

gschenk

@Erlkoenig yes, indeed. That could happen since 120 years. It is rare. With wide spread S-pedelecs you would make it accessible to a much wider group of irresponsive riders.

Erlkoenig

But S-pedelecs would still require a driving license and license plate. So it's still limited

gschenk

I've having enough grief with idiots who use e-fatbikes like motorbikes. They can only go 25 km/h but try to squeeze through any gap without ever slowing down.

Erlkoenig

14:18

Besides, if you want to go fast, you can just ride on the road then

gschenk

Some are delivery riders. But there's a kind of black clothes, tacticool, black shades, black fat bike, who is nearly always super aggressive.

Andy P

@gschenk We have those here too. except they've all derestricted them and driving them around at 60-70km/h

Erlkoenig

Weird, never noticed those except for the delivery people

Most annoying e-bike riders are the retirees riding at 10 km/h on the middle of the bike path. That won't change with better S-pedelec-legislation

gschenk

problem is if they ride that way there:

That's bi-directional and during rush hour there are about 2 times as many riders in each direction.

Erlkoenig

Classic. But commuters (at rush hour) usually have at least some riding skill and etiquette. The retirees come out later

Andy P

14:27

^ this bike path would already make me want to sell my entire fleet of bikes. Hard to imagine anything more miserable (except perhaps getting the bus)

Erlkoenig

Lolwat? That is one of the best bike paths here :o]

Renaud

Erratum, it's not a regulation project, it's an initiative from Gazelle

nieuws.gazelle.nl/…

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Its FULL of slow people. I'd be overtaking on the grass all the time

Erlkoenig

merkur.de/bilder/2018/09/21/10264887/… The default way to build "bikepaths" in Germany. You can choose between dooring or getting run over.

gschenk

@Erlkoenig was about to say the same.

Erlkoenig

14:30

The pic is missing the pedestrians walking on the bike path btw

gschenk

@AndyP in Munich, never ride through grass.

It's full of shards from broken beer bottles that were brushed of the bike paths early in the morning.

Erlkoenig

You can't ride fast anyhow, as you are stuck at a red light every 100m anyways.

Andy P

See, i told you selling all bikes was the right answer :P

Erlkoenig

Cycling here means patience

gschenk

@Erlkoenig and trailers to bring kids to kindergarden

Erlkoenig

14:32

Exactly

Andy P

@Erlkoenig This is also the default bike path design here. Except ours are half as wide, full of gravel and with parked cars to dodge around

Michael

@gschenk what annoys me here is the people who overtake without giving hand signals or looking over their shoulder

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Well then gschenk's one is much better

Michael

and the people who overtake despite oncoming traffic

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Nah, cos with the one you posted I just ride in the road at car speed

Michael

14:33

and the people who ride side-by-side at 10km/h using up all 4m of road

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Not everyone manages to ride at 60 km/h continuously!

gschenk

This path is quite ok. The speed is about 18 km/h. There's no point whatsoever in overtaking. You'd be just behind the next one. It is about the quickest way to cross the city centre, as it avoids intersections and is quite direct.

Michael

we need a minimum speed of 25km/h on bike paths :>

gschenk

So best is to get into the flow and ride along. Then go fast when out in the open.

Andy P

@gschenk There is nothing even remotely OK about 18km/h

Renaud

14:35

@Erlkoenig My experience here is that they ride as fast as they can, and on powerful suspended (fork&seat post) trekking e-bikes. Better to be on their way if you can't keep-up. Same with the mothers who ride their kids to school on their cargo bikes/bakfiets.

gschenk

@AndyP that's when you ride for fun only. If you want to get from one place to another it is plenty fast. Interruptions cause more delay.

Erlkoenig

@Renaud Never seen anyone like that

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Girls actually ride bikes?

😉

Erlkoenig

I meant the first part :D

Mums with kids on cargo bikes are usually slow

gschenk

@Erlkoenig mums without kids are usually impatient, cause they have to get to day care no later than 15:55

Renaud

14:37

@Erlkoenig The ones on regular bikes, yep. The ones with ebikes on bike lanes no.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Those mums usually ride SUVs

gschenk

Less trailers and more cargo bikes in the last two or three years though.

Renaud

@Erlkoenig They switched to Tern HSD/GSD...

Erlkoenig

I once saw a mum with kids in a NON-e cargo-bike climb the little hill at the "Gasteig". The same hill a (male, young) coworker complained was sooo step he couldn't ride up at all, so he had to drive to work. Girl power.

gschenk

@Erlkoenig nah, in Munich? No chance to get an inner city parkin spot. Inner city parents are also predominantly green and anti SUV demographic.

Erlkoenig

14:39

Just park on the bike path

gschenk

"Gasteig" <- you know what it means?

Erlkoenig

Uhhm, only the meaning from wikipedia

gschenk

'gacher Steig' steep path, steep incline.

Erlkoenig

Yeah, but it's not steep from a cyclist's perspective :D

If moms with kids on non-e bikes can ride it uphill...

gschenk

they bulldozed it and made it flatter. But it used to be a dangerous obstacle to bull or horse drawn carts.

Erlkoenig

14:41

Well it's still dangerous...

The bridge is pure madness

gschenk

yep, intersections there are a nightmare

all ways from isar up to Hochstrasse are awful.

Gebsattelstr and Nockherberg are perhaps the least bad.

Erlkoenig

Luckily my new commute is much, much better.

gschenk

Nope, sorry. Nockherberg is even worse, cause it's hard to cross to the middle of the tram tracks, and right of tram tracks it's in the middle of door zone.

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Mine too. Its about 3-4m to the spare room :D

gschenk

@Erlkoenig where's your new job?

Erlkoenig

14:45

Near Stiglmaierplatz

gschenk

Mine used to be out in Gruenwald with a good commute. New one is next to your old one behind Ost-Bahnhof.

@Erlkoenig that's next to you. neat, just down Brienner.

Probably too short to make cycling worthwhile.

Erlkoenig

Yeah exactly... I could walk but who does that??

Short commute is soo good for life quality

Andy P

yay, less commuting = more time for pain and suffering on the turbo! 🥳

Erlkoenig

I sometimes wonder how easy your life must be that you want some extra pain and suffering

gschenk

@AndyP that is horrifying.

Andy P

14:54

@Erlkoenig Karl Marx: "The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain" 🤣

Erlkoenig

It's not getting better.

gschenk

A habit for turbo training that causes pain and suffering will lead to a longer life, which you will fill with more turbo training, pain and suffering. A vicious cycle of longevity and health.

Erlkoenig

I hate indoor training, I'd rather ride in snow and freezing cold than indoors

gschenk

Indoor training is purgatory: Pain and suffering to prepare for even worse pain and suffering.

Andy P

Honestly, i don't like the turbo much either. But it is very convenient for some things.
Like last night I can put all my stuff in the car and drive 30mins to a suitable climb or I can hop on the turbo and simulate whatever climb i like

Michael

15:00

just live in the right location

Andy P

@gschenk Actually I prefer to think of it as preparation so i can do the truly epic stuff without suffering (unless I choose to make it so)

@Michael Yeah, I like where i live and it has a lot going for it from a riding perspective. But lack of climbs over ~4-5mins is a definite drawback

Like this summer I will ride Galibier for the first time. I want to take in the views and not just be focussed on survival.
Its a challenge holiday that depending on fitness level very much varies the level of challenge vs holiday

gschenk

@Michael there is much said for the absence of mountains and steep climbs in one's immediate vicinity. It makes grocery shopping and commutes immensely less horrible.

There's maybe a sweet spot, a singular large mountain about 5 to 10 km from home?

Michael

I have all that :)

though for the really long climbs I’d have to hop on a train and travel for an hour

Andy P

~30min climb at 5-6% is enough, can do repeats if needed.

Renaud

@gschenk watts are watts, come to a flat windy area and you'll have your climbing preparation. Personally I consider strong wind harder than steep climbs.

Eneco NK Tegenwindfietsen 2022: de bruutste editie ooit!

►

gschenk

15:16

@Renaud riding head winds is quite different from climbing. It is way cooler, with those headwind championships (you just posted).

Andy P

I agree with that 95%. Climbing training is a little overrated - its the raw watts that make you climb faster.
However you do utilise muscles a bit different on a climb. Sitting more upright, more open hip angle, less momentum helping you get over the top of the pedal stroke

gschenk

Tegenwindfietsen!

Michael

+1 you don’t need mountains to train high intensity

gschenk

There was such a wind at the coast near Scheveningen. I think the gusts were in excess of 30 km/h.

Erlkoenig

It's only a real climb if it's so slippery and steep that you can't get started again when you stop.

gschenk

15:18

Rather impressive.

Erlkoenig

@Renaud Even the racers don't wear helmets in the netherlands... Truly a paradise

gschenk

@Erlkoenig by the same token you may say: It's only a steep climb when you go straight up a rock face.

@Renaud there is zero risk of going over their handle bars.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Correction: It's only a climb when I can do it :o]

gschenk

they might gain a lot of speed though when they let go of their bars and are blown away.

Renaud

@Erlkoenig and on top of that, they are racing on an omafiets (and they are not very fast also)

gschenk

15:24

are pro-racer taking part in such events (out of competition)?

Renaud

@gschenk I couldn't find any name.

But it doesn't look like these are big events either. They only mention about 300 participants.

Erlkoenig

16:20

It would be crazy to see how an aerobike would fare in those conditions

Michael

much better

my sister says aero bikes are magic

Erlkoenig

Is your sister a dark aero mage?

Michael

16:35

is this about the airplane? :D

my sister just rides an extremely expensive and optimized setup

she says it’s like wind doesn’t exist and you just automatically ride 40km/h

without effort

custom made aero suit and what not

Erlkoenig

Incredible! At 40 km/h in the flat I'm redlining on the gravel bike 😅

Michael

apparently it’s a whole other world. Makes me want to try a racing recumbent which should be even more areo

Erlkoenig

18:57

Sadly aero means you have to ride on the road, where the cars are 😬

Andy P

19:09

Urgh, well its safe to say today was one of THOSE rides better forgotten.
Tubeless malfunction = mini pump saw a lot of action. And to add insult to injury some big bity bug got down my shirt.
So i'm riding along with 10psi in front tyre trying to grab bug through my shirt to squish it before it bites some more 😭

Michael

why are you riding tubeless on the road bike? o.O

and why don’t you have a proper mini pump?

get a Lezyne Road Drive

Andy P

Rode my MTB in the forest today.

I am going to try tubeless on my new road bike though - although on that i'm rather more skeptical of the benefits. But the stock tyres on the bike are michelin power road tlr - nice tyres, but the tlr version has the breaker removed = buy new tyres or try out tubeless

Got to say 10psi is super plush on gravel! you just cant steer :D

https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/equipment/bike-accessories/bike-pumps-accessories/bike-pumps/bontrager-air-support-pump/p/11246/
I have a slightly older MTB version of this - i like it. But when you are pumping every ~20mins its still a lot of pumping!

Erlkoenig

19:54

@Michael Lezyne mini pumps apparently don't work with all tubeless valves 😬

Andy P

20:58

Roll on TDF. Evening feels kinda empty without some racing to watch on GCN+

Criggie

22:33

I gave up on GCN when their shilling became uncomfortable

gschenk

22:59

@Erlkoenig I've removed my valve core once while removing the hose. Managed to seat the tyre after 40 min of vigorous mini pumping.

I use loctite on cores since.

I'd there a table of incompatibility?

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