The Velodrome

Michael

05:12

@AndyP that’s the magic of endurance training. You spend hours at boring low intensity, feeling like you are not doing any work at all and then BAM! results

Criggie

05:40

yah - got to mix it up though

Encurance is one thing, but you need to have some burst power too

Else you jus grind your way up a hill. Need some BOOM for the ramps etc.

Michael

yes, and the boring endurance training can only take you so far, but it’s still surprising how far. Considering it doesn’t feel like anything.

Criggie

yup - I check my commute segments and over the last three years they have got faster.

some of that is tailwinds, some is better bikes

but at least some of it is me because I can see a reversion after each lockdown, and now with the healing time.

Andy P

07:44

@Criggie 16.6W/kg on my 5s test - is that enough boom?

Yep, i knew endurance training could work even on raising vo2 max so the 5 minute power was a surprise but understandable. But seeing gains in 5s and 60s power definitely was a surprise.
Good news is results suggest i've got plenty of headroom to grow my 1hr power = I can start adding some longer z4 intervals = also has good specificity for my holiday in the mountains

Criggie

08:36

Does anyone measure their 4 hour power ?

Andy P

09:28

@Criggie Probably a few folks in the ultra endurance crowd measure over longer durations like that. But in most cases people just extrapolate from their 1 hour point and then fine tune with some longer training rides

There's not that many use cases for a 4 hour power. maybe if you are doing a flat 100mi TT

Michael

12:26

@AndyP I mean … even if you only do endurance training you are going to get some muscles and your brain is going to learn how to use them

and most people have some high-intensity stuff in their endurance training, even if it’s just to catch a green traffic light

or when you run out of gears when climbing

Andy P

@Michael Not many hills or traffic lights in the local forest!

Almost as flat as the netherlands

I literally have rides with average and normalised power within 2-3W

Mithical

13:18

Sometime I envy y'all's flat rides.

(That's a single ride, I haven't ridden much this week.)

Michael

@Mithical but it’s boring!

Mithical

Yeah but at least you survive!

Andy P

Sometimes its good, sometimes its bad.
I'd love to have a decent climb nearby to train on but there's nothing really.
Best one is ~10 minute climb at 5% and I have to drive in the car 30mins to it

Mithical

Well, today I did specifically do a ~10 minute climb at 12.3% :D

My PR is ~8:50, KOM is a WT pro with 4:29.

Andy P

imo 12.3% is a little much for training unless you have unusually low gearing.
at that sort of gradient you are in the realms of the climb controlling you rather than you making the exact effort you want

Mithical

13:32

It is a little much, yes, but that's kinda the point.

If I want to do lower grade climbing I can just ride literally anywhere else. If I'm specifically doing something particularly difficult, that's the climb I'm doing.

Michael

@AndyP for 3 minute intervals it should be perfect

Andy P

@Mithical Personally i'd nearly always choose a grade between 3-8% for training efforts. If I want to go harder or grind a lower cadence I can just change up gear

@Michael Yes, I have one nearby thats not bad for a 4x 4m session. Although the cadence is getting bogged down even at 5W/kg

For an unremarkable road miles from much civilisation there's been quite a lot of strong riders up there. Barely a top 10

Erlkoenig

How do you guys measure slope? Elevation data in navigation apps is usually not very accurate

Michael

13:48

most steep roads have a sign

though I don’t know how accurate that is

Andy P

For slopes you ride regularly then you can get a reasonable idea from barometric altimeter in garmin. some days maybe it says 13.5% and other days 11.5%, but you can be pretty sure its somewhere between those.
For something where i'm travelling to a climb or route planning I just look at averages over a longer section

honestly, I probably dont care if its 15% for 5 seconds in between the several minutes at 5%

Although that can definitely catch you out on occasion. On my holiday to Spain this year there was a relatively sedate looking climb that was supposed to be ~5km @8%
The reality was the entire 5km alternated between 12-15% ramps and 4-5% flatter sections. it was horrific

Erlkoenig

Sounds hellish

Michael

the problem is you run out of gears

that’s when you wish for a triple crankset

Andy P

14:09

A triple would have been LOVELY on that day.

Erlkoenig

Or gravel gears? 😜

Andy P

Nah, gravel gearing would not have been fast enough for Spain. Crazy smooth road surfaces. I was spinning out the 50-11 pretty much every day

Erlkoenig

Woah, insane... How can Spain afford perfect roads?

Andy P

Because its warm and dry, they only have to build them once and they dont crack and fall apart

That last day though. I swear it felt like it was all like this: google.com/maps/@36.5984985,-4.6665158,3a,75y,122.1h,78.58t/…

either biggest gear or smallest gear and nothing between

Erlkoenig

Sounds like you need an IGH 😄

Andy P

14:22

Corresponding strava segment: strava.com/segments/8643029

Erlkoenig

Apropos, where in north Italy can you do an easy road/gravel holiday with nice views?

Michael

riding along the coast is like that

50m of elevation at 12% up followed by 50m of elevation at 12% down

rinse and repeat 100 times

Andy P

@Erlkoenig In northern italy you might not find 'easy'. you either have mountains or just south of them i believe someone said you have undesirable flat swamp/marsh land

Erlkoenig

Hmm I see...

Andy P

If you are willing to ride in the mountains though I think you have very many options with stunning scenery

Erlkoenig

14:30

I am but the spouse... isn't 😅😅

Andy P

Actually a gravel climb in italy is at the very top of my 'most wanted' list. Unfortunately tour companies seem reluctant to run gravel routes so far - i guess because difficulties with support vehicles

Colle delle Finestre (Susa) - Cycling Inspiration & Education

►

Erlkoenig

14:44

Gravel climb on road tyres. Fearless.

I was thinking about riding from village to village and trying each ice cream place in sight.

Andy P

16:24

@Erlkoenig Think this will be too hard for what you are looking for, but maybe it provides some inspiration: dolomitigravel.com/tours

Andy P

16:38

https://www.itinerabike.com/tour/lake-garda-gravel/
This could be a good option. Lake Garda is a pretty popular tourist destination so there would be many non riding activites for a day off too

Erlkoenig

Great, thanks! Lake Garda sounds very nice.

Andy P

I've only ever driven past it on a coach transferring to the airport. But it did look a very nice scenic spot

Michael

Lake Garda is awesome, but mostly for the climbing

Arco ♥

Andy P

16:54

Seems Sam's evil twin has an endless number of bad/off topic questions

also seems someone upvoted.......

Michael

17:37

I always upvote product recommendation questions

Andy P

17:48

Yeah, cos those cheap plastic pedals are so hard to find

lol, just started watching todays tour de suisse coverage.
29 riders out with covid in 1 day

ah, technically a few of them arent positive tests, entire team pulled out

Erlkoenig

18:36

Got dropped by a triathlete. The shame.

Andy P

lol, no shame in that, there's a lot of very fit triathletes out there. when you spend 15hrs a week working the cardio system you get in good shape

Got to be honest, i've got a itch to give it a go.
But not sure how i'd fit in the swim training and not sure I recover well enough to take the training load

Erlkoenig

18:52

@AndyP Yeah pretty crazy

Michael

swimming sucks

running is the best sport there is. If you can run, why bother with cycling?

MaplePanda

Surely your knees would disagree with that?

Erlkoenig

I don't like running 😬 the impacts on the knees, the bone-shaking, the lack of cooling / sweat-drying wind... If you are heavy-built cycling and swimming are much better (even though you won't be the best)

Michael

gotta loose weigth then

Andy P

You also cant run down mountains at 70km/h 😄

Michael

18:59

I think only beginners have problems with the knees. It comes from slow running

at a more advanced level the main problems are shin splints and achilles tendonitis

but that’s why I say “if you can run”

Andy P

What i don't like about triathlon is all the 'i do triathlon' people that it turns out they do sprint distance events in 4hrs

Erlkoenig

@Michael You can't if the weight is literally bones!

Michael

@AndyP well, let them if they want to

@Erlkoenig good on you for the high bone density then :) At least you don’t have to worry about stress fractures :D

Andy P

@Erlkoenig There's like 0.00001% of the population where thats true

A quote from a research paper: "Bone strength adapts to meet demands of musculoskeletal loading, and therefore, body weight is one of the strongest predictors of bone mineral density (BMD)"

@Michael Sprint tri's are an abomination. Even Olympic distance is kinda meh - i could go race one of those tomorrow without training running and having not swum for 20 years

Erlkoenig

19:52

@AndyP I wasn't talking about density but simple size... Quite a few people are just wide-built and therefore heavier. They just usually don't do endurance sports.

Andy P

20:15

You dont see many wide built runners for sure. But you do see plenty in cycling/swimming/rowing.
There's a fair few guys in the pro peloton that would be massive if they piled on some weight

MaplePanda

21:24

Interesting point

I was always under the impression that having a high muscle mass is good for cycling

Square-cube law for wind resistance vs power output

It's interesting how many pro cyclists are twigs

Andy P

21:38

It's great on the flat.
And in low level racing where courses are often pancake flat criteriums it's a huge plus.
But most races we see on the TV require the need to climb.

15 minute climb at 6W/kg probably isn't happening if you weigh 90kg!

Renaud

22:28

@AndyP I went to Garda last november. Two recommendations: stay away from the road as much as possible, it's the most hostile region I've been so far (luckily there's a good network of cycle paths). And if you want inspiration: komoot.com/user/gravelclubit (we only did day trips from this club).

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