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whatsisname
whatsisname
7:02 PM
reading the letters to the editor in the local newspaper about the iphone decryption thing makes me sad
 
MetaFight
MetaFight
@whatsisname how so?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
ignorant cretins presumably
although people on both sides are ignorant cretins
everybody is an ignorant cretin. there you go
speaking seriously, I'd wager he's reading letters blaming Apple for helping terrorists and suggesting "if you have nothing to hide" etc etc
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@MetaFight: ignorance and fear
 
MetaFight
MetaFight
@PreferenceBean good thing everybody's an ignorant cretin except us.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@whatsisname I wish somebody would just make a really simple explanation to people about it. It's not difficult at all: If every iPhone was a home, it comes with individual keys to each door and window; if every iPhone get's updated so there's actually one key that works on everyone's doors, how quickly would malicious people figure out how to create that key, and start pilfering all your wallets? Or some such.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
7:05 PM
to be quite honest, although I'd definitely rather my hidden stuff remained hidden thank you very much, I think that any hardline position on the subject is inherently flawed. we do need to stop bad guys, and that is going to be electronic from now on.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I heard on the radio one person saying "I don't care, there's nothing secret on my phone" - but somebody just needs to remind him: Well, if you've ever bought anything on amazon or another online store, and your e-mail is accessible from your iPhone, chances are people would get all your CC info and purchase a ton of shit.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@JimmyHoffa: but its hard to get people to realize that you can't just easily kick the door down or bust a window with encryption
 
MetaFight
MetaFight
I hate the phrase "bad guys". As if it were that simple.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
I must admit I didn't fully grok Apple's statement. I don't know enough about security to understand how the argument "but then it's a backdoor for every phone" could possibly fly unless you are completely incompetent or being obnoxiously difficult for the sake of principle
that's surely because I haven't read much on the subject
@MetaFight well, I completely agree; and that's part of the problem
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@PreferenceBean it comes down to the fact that they can't comply with the court order (which is another thing i wish somebody would say), because encryption. The only way they could comply is by creating an iOS with a backdoor in it, and installing it on the phone.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
7:07 PM
the "us vs them" mentality is one thing. the "we're good vs they're bad" mentality is just fundamentally flawed but every Western nation has a sort of self-righteous assumption about this
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@PreferenceBean: that's not just western nations, that's humanity
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@JimmyHoffa surely there must be some way of keying such a release to the specific device
 
user55340
Can the court compel a company to spend two months of top tier dev work for the government?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
yeah, I get that that's dangerous. now there's source you can just modify to make it work on another device
 
Ampt
Ampt
Did someone mention drinking to excess? I was busy having beers over lunch
 
MetaFight
MetaFight
7:08 PM
@PreferenceBean totally agree. I remember nearly shitting myself when I heard Bush #2 use the phrase "evil doers". Cartoons and politics collided and nobody seemed to care. scary.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
but if you have the source you can get rid of the encryption yourself anyway right
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@MichaelT: obviously the answer to that is no
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@MetaFight "rogue nations" (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Which actually got me to thinking about an interesting fact; we have the CDC with all of these insanely dangerous viruses in freezers... perhaps what we need is to develop a technology security agency of the same size and depth as the CDC to start ordering and enforcing security strengths and managing security intrusions just the same as the CDC pushes vaccines and handles outbreaks.
 
psr
psr
@whatsisname Why?
 
user55340
7:08 PM
@whatsisname and that is part of what is at the heat of the issue.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
and the other encryption problem, is that say I'm a cop and I get a warrant to search your stuff, and you refuse to allow me access to your safe, fine
I can't compell you to give me access, but I can call in a locksmith to bust the safe open and get your stuff out
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Ampt yeah just me dying of alcohol poisoning nothing to worry about
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@PreferenceBean never heard of a key generator?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@JimmyHoffa not really :(
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
but I can't do that with an encrypted message
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:09 PM
@PreferenceBean I'll drink to that!
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
I have a basic comprehension of security principles (and, I'd like to think, a fair helping of common sense) but no in-depth knowledge on the subject
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@psr: why? to what statement?
 
Ampt
Ampt
Wait... or should we pour one out for you?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Ampt \o/
 
psr
psr
@whatsisname Why can't a court do so? Do you know of a reason?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:10 PM
@whatsisname really? I thought the answer was..yes.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Ampt s'alright I'm going down to the bar in a few minutes heh
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
the court cannot force you to work
regardless what the reason is
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@whatsisname yeah
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
the court can compel an individual to work for community service, or in the prison system, etc
why not a company?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
I think, ultimately, somehow, law enforcement needs a way to implement warrants as they pertain to data security
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
7:10 PM
no they cannot
 
user55340
@psr this gets to a 1790 bit of legal riilings.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
hopefully they can find a way to do that without breaking data security for the unwarranted
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
you don't have to work and you won't serve a longer penalty if you refuse
community service is an option to avoid or shorten prison/jail time
 
user55340
But the thing is the government can't make you work for them.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
but if police can open one safe they can open any safe. and crims can already break into your safe
we're just getting a little too used to absolute digital safety, perhaps
maybe we should, because digital gives us that and we want it and we want to keep it
 
user55340
7:11 PM
The other question being "can another country do the same thing?"
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
or maybe for the greater good it's just too fiercely individualistic for a world of 7 billion people
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
the courts also cannot make you work otherwise that would be slavery as well
and like I said earlier, the man can not force you to provide a key or combination to a safe, either
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@whatsisname that sounds like a compulsion to me? "Do this or go to Jail", they can tell a company the same, no? Community service can be in lieu of fines as well. They could tell a company "Do this to avoid fines"
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
also my analogy completely breaks down because your safe is "protected" -- if only legally -- by being inside your home, your property. that's not the case for transmitted data.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@JimmyHoffa: well, it's worded more as "you are going to jail, but you can go to jail for less time if you agree to do blah"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:13 PM
@whatsisname or "not at all" if you agree - all the court needs to do is find the company in contempt for refusing to honor the discovery request and tell them they'll be fined $2b or they can commit to the service requested
 
user55340
And a phone is not transmitted data. Apple already handed over the cloud info.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
but in apples case, they have nothing to avoid
there is no basis for them to be fined or go to jail
 
psr
psr
@whatsisname Important line legally. Not too important practically if there are draconian sentences available.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
apple hasn't broken the law so they can't even be offered that deal
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@JimmyHoffa I think the lack of education about digital security bothers me far more than any hypothetical future lack of the security itself ^_^
sadly it's too complex a topic to trivially teach everyone alive
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
7:14 PM
you can't force someone to do community service, else go to jail, without them being convicted with due process of law
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
so, the onus is de facto on the vendor. and we're back to Apple having to make the hard call
 
Ampt
Ampt
motivation to get anything done after fixing a bug in prod and an hour long meeting this morning: 0
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
conversations: 6 (peak)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@whatsisname true, but you don't think Apple could be convicted in contempt of court?
 
Ampt
Ampt
someone send motivation and/or coffee
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
7:15 PM
@JimmyHoffa: discovery does not apply here
 
Ampt
Ampt
@whatsisname really? Since when?
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
Apple would stand their ground and they would win, 100% confidence
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@whatsisname that's what the order is regarding the info on the guys iPhone isn't it?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@whatsisname Isn't encryption regulated in the US? Couldn't they feasibly face a scenario where their lack of co-operation inevitably leads to regulatory change that reduces everyone's safety?
I'd say that's the downside they face
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
it's not a matter of handing over existing information, its a refusal to create something and to help do the FBIs job
 
user55340
7:16 PM
@PreferenceBean that is one theory of the government long game.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@whatsisname heh, as if the law needs to be written down before the court decides you broke it
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@whatsisname I doubt the law sees it that way
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@Ampt: not for people, but for corps with billions in assets it does lolz
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
Apple have the capability to provide the information. They are refusing to do so.
 
psr
psr
@PreferenceBean Nah. If the FBI gets the software from apple they requested they can just break any phone they get hold of. Though they promised they wouldn't. No need for regulations.
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:17 PM
@whatsisname I'll see you your billions of assets and raise you a defense program with trillions in funding
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
too fast James
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@PreferenceBean: they have the capability to make it happen, but they don't have the information in a filing cabinet to just grab
it's not apples job to do the work of a detective
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@psr that's the alternative scenario yeah
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
the FBI is more than capable of getting the information if they have to
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
though I still don't quite grok that risk
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:17 PM
If we can spend hundreds of billions creating super computers to track our own citizens, what is one company with a few dozen billion in cash?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@whatsisname true enough. You think the contempt of court order wouldn't stand? We may well find out- isn't that basically the courts recourse in the face of Apple's refusal?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
are we saying that iPhones would inherently become brute-forceable if such an iOS version existed?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
yes
 
Ampt
Ampt
@PreferenceBean that's the implication yes
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
say I am a safe company, and these safes are hard to crack, and a customer in a crime uses one to hold their secrets
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:18 PM
they would create a version of iOS that could be installed remotely, without your approval, to allow brute forcing to happen
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
and is that true regardless of whether Apple hand over the software or simply install it themselves and pass over the decrypted information? They could argue IP protection
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
FBI comes to me and says "Create for me a way to break into those safes", and I say "no, figure it out yourselves"
 
psr
psr
@PreferenceBean To anyone that had that iOS version. Which in this case would be the FBI.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
there is nothing the FBI can do legally to force me to do that legwork for them
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@psr I don't get why you'd give the FBI the software though
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:19 PM
my understanding is that the FBI is asking Apple to give them this brute-force-enabling iOS update, rather than asking Apple to take the phone away and do stuff to it and come back with the info
 
psr
psr
@PreferenceBean court order.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
which is why you can make the argument that this would ruin the security of all phones everywhere, not just this one evil guy's phone
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
So what's the US after? I mean, the phone is owned by a dead guy, who did bad things and then got shot. Are they going to charge him with _more_ things? Or are they witchhunting people who associated with the dead guy?

I hear that second part is already something they can't do...
 
Ampt
Ampt
@whatsisname Then the FBI takes you to secret court where you're ordered to do it anyway, or face fines in the millions of days, also, if you mention this to anyone, you'll be in jail faster than you can say "One million per DAY?"
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@psr they're refusing the court order. so make a court order that says they only need to apply the software and hand over the data .. and everyone's happy, no?
well, until the software leaks ;)
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
7:19 PM
@JimmyHoffa: I'm confident it would be successfully argued that Apple cannot be compelled to do the FBIs work for them
 
user55340
The other theory is that the government actually wants to lose in the current Supreme Court to strengthen security that is hard for congress to overturn.
 
user114359
@PreferenceBean Have you seen what the US government does to people who don't cooperate?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Telastyn they want to know who he was in contact with
 
psr
psr
@PreferenceBean Well, probably not the FBI, really.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Telastyn It's all about intelligence isn't it. It's not as if the threat posed by this guy and his friends is over just because the guy's dead. There are THOUSANDS of people in his organisation. The organisation needs to be dismantled.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:20 PM
@PreferenceBean this goes back to my point about the CDC: Would you want an agency to create a killer virus - that only they could handle? No matter the security of the organization, I don't want them to do it, and without a CDC-type agency around to contain such dangerous things I don't want any company doing such.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
right, well, he's free to associate with whomever he wants.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@Ampt: you think that's going to work on the most valuable company on the world? that they'd be so bold as to disappear Tim Cook?
joe schmoe, sure
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@PreferenceBean exactly, if that's what the FBI asked for I doubt it would've gotten this huge
 
Ampt
Ampt
@whatsisname heh, most valuable in the world - sure, of the ones that are household names
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@JimmyHoffa Isn't that what the NSA's supposed to be? ;)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:20 PM
@Telastyn yeah, but we're free to spy on whomever we want too. Which is the key there.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@Telastyn: it's about more than just the dead guys phone
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@PreferenceBean nope. The NSA isn't necessarily specialized like the CDC is.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
the man wants to resume being able to spy on people 24/7
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Telastyn no he's not
@Telastyn associating with so-called "terrorist organisations" is a major criminal offence in every country I've heard of
 
Duga
Duga
This type of question is off topic for Stackoverflow. SO is for specific programming problems. While some discussion is encouraged, a question like this would probably be better suited for a different SO site. Check the on topic questions readme on Programmers. — IanAuld 1 min ago
 
psr
psr
7:21 PM
@PreferenceBean Yet the girl scouts still exist.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@JimmyHoffa ok - I like your idea then
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
@PreferenceBean - no, Americans are guaranteed freedom of association. It's decidedly clear cut.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@psr So do terrorist organisations ;P
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Jan 18 at 19:27, by Jimmy Hoffa
> wa-sheeng!
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
yes, especially terrorist organisations
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
7:22 PM
@JimmyHoffa - right, but the court shouldn't be able to issue a warrant to violate the constitution.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
you're just not allowed to go kill people and blow stuff up
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Telastyn Well I can't speak to that. I do find that -- and I'm not saying you're one of them -- many Americans think they're "freer" than they actually are. Misunderstanding of "freedom of speech" for example
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Telastyn shouldn't be able != can't or wont
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
@PreferenceBean - oh, that's quite true.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
As a counter example though I'll point you to Gitmo....
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:22 PM
Technically we can't spy on our own citizens, but rules are boring and help terrorists!
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
hardly any of those folks have provably committed a crime. they were locked up for associating with "bad guys"
now whether that's legal or not is frankly besides the point in a lot of ways
the fact is - it happens. you may be "guaranteed" freedom of association but I think it's clear that you don't actually have it
 
Ampt
Ampt
DO YOU SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS?!
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
so the guarantee isn't worth the paper it's written on in my view
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
well, the FBI can spy on our own citizens (with a warrant) the CIA can't though as part of their charter.
 
user55340
@PreferenceBean American citizens have freedom of association in the US.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
7:24 PM
bet they do
 
psr
psr
@PreferenceBean They aren't U.S. citizens. They don't get freedom of association right from the U.S. constitution.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
I watch TV
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Telastyn what's a warrant?
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@psr hmm
 
Ampt
Ampt
oh, yeah, we decided to switch those out with TPS reports - far quicker and easier.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
7:24 PM
@psr: that's horseshit, the bill of rights does not discriminate against non citizens
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Telastyn never really looked at it from that perspective, I suppose it's not evidence gathering for a criminal trial is it? Though, is it? I mean, if a crime happens where the perpretrators die, can't the federal government still investigate and prosecute the perpetrators - innocent until proven guilty and all that, technicaly the court hasn't proved the guilt of the perpetrators yet.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
ok well I don't know much about that so I'll take your word for it
 
Ampt
Ampt
@psr They do have rights under the geneva convention, but that's just some dusty old document anyway
 
user55340
@whatsisname the bill of rights doesn't extend overseas.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
@MichaelT: those two statements say vastly different things
 
user55340
7:25 PM
And thus the core of the "why keep them in Cuba"
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
oops colleague alone at bar for ages hehe
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
right, they argue that Gitmo is not under the US jurisdiction
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
goodbye for now and enjoy your freedom
 
Ampt
Ampt
@PreferenceBean don't have one for me
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
which boggles my mind how anyone accepts that argument
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
7:26 PM
@Ampt ok
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt technically, we absolutely can; patriot act and all that. I remember when the patriot act extensions were being talked about years ago during Bush 2's term and privacy folks were shouting "This will make it legal for them to spy on anyone and everyone's private information!" - it got past, and then years later people were somehow surprised when that's exactly what happened.. Never understood people's surprise.. Guess they weren't paying attention when it was all passed. It was clear.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@PreferenceBean helping
 
user55340
Just stating that's the legal theory. Not attesting to its validity.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
right
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Ampt not really - just means I'll have to have it for myself instead!
@JimmyHoffa ahha yeah that whole media shitstorm was absolutely hilarious
missed it
oh well
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:27 PM
@PreferenceBean begone!
 
user55340
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
haha as if we could ever bear arms against our federal government; anybody who thinks a violent federal takeover is possible in America is out of their ever-loving mind. I don't care what kind of militia was ever formed, this country's military would positively demolish any such activity. Those other countries have war lords left right and center - entrenched ones that have developed their militias for decades.
(I support the right to bear arms, but not as a means of civil defense, that's crazy talk)
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa I think it's more the phsychological aspect of it - you couldn't forcefully militarize the whole country - you'd have a redneck behind every bush.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Drones over america and enough bradleys by volume to raise the sea level 20', civil defense against the federal government is absolute nonsense.
2
 
Ampt
Ampt
also, I think you'd have a lot of defection if you had american soldiers pointing their guns at US citizens
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:32 PM
how the hell did politics become a topic in here? That was weird. I blame @whatsisname
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
it was totally me
 
enderland
enderland
wasn't me
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
I enjoyed the short discussion though
messages/minute rate went up substantially
 
psr
psr
@JimmyHoffa It was me
 
enderland
enderland
yeah I came back to like 200 messages lol
 
psr
psr
7:35 PM
Jan 18 at 19:27, by Jimmy Hoffa
> wa-sheeng!
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
the other letter to the editor was a bunch of silly hypotheticals and dirty bomb nonsense, also accompanied by clear misunderstandings of the law
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
oh look, a new answer to a 12 answered question from almost 2 years ago.
 
whatsisname
whatsisname
basically imagine every terrible pro-torture claim, and swap it out for iphone decrpytion
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:53 PM
you can ask Jimmy all about it - he's a fascist.
2
 
user55340
@Telastyn 15 now with deleted.
 
enderland
enderland
awww yeah SO rep
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:11 PM
@enderland ick, you can't even clean that stuff off
 
enderland
enderland
I'm self answering at least. nom om
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
8:24 PM
Not sure what you need the term for, but if it's so obscure that nobody can recognize it, it's not going to be of much use in documentation unless you explain the term first. Much like a joke; if you have to explain the joke, it's not a very good joke. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago
 
user41796
Damn that's a long footnote of mine on that old question
 
user41796
But I just pulled in a guru badge for it. W00t!
 
user114359
8:46 PM
lollercopter, someone voted to reopen this question: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/310676/…
 
user114359
Good thing I put the final nail in the coffin before that could happen.
 
user55340
@Snowman at 250 rep can vote to reopen own question
 
user114359
@MichaelT I did not realize that. Probably explains some of the crap questions with one vote on them.
 
user114359
This is definitely not the first time I have seen that.
 
user55340
There is also something for an undelete on non mod deleted posts too.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
9:18 PM
Uh-oh.. I feel much better now. lol
 
user114359
@PreferenceBean it's ok, everybody poops.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
9:35 PM
“Wangohan has discovered a very promising new user interface framework,” said Zjing at her weekly teleconference with the senior masters. “He wishes to use it on his next project.”

“Another framework?” said Bawan. “We already make use of Angular, Backbone, Bootstrap, Dojo, Ember, Jumpstart, Knockout—”

“He believes this one has advantages that the others do not,” said Zjing.

“He believes?” asked Kaimu, arching his brow. “And what does Zjing believe?”

There was an uncomfortable silence.
@Snowman "How to find the meaning of life, using jQuery"
 
user114359
@RobertHarvey seems like googling for "jquery concurrency" would be a good start.
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey need to catch up on those...
 
Ampt
Ampt
@RobertHarvey There's a framework for those types of questions you know
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Is it the BikeShed framework?
Fowler's book is the best one, IMO. The GOF book? Meh, you should probably know those, I guess. Every time I see a question like this, I get a vision of new programmers carrying around hammers looking for nails to hit. — Robert Harvey 3 mins ago
"Timeless Programming Recipes for the New Age."
 
user55340
Insert standard pattern rant
 
Ampt
Ampt
9:46 PM
@RobertHarvey Flagged as Chatty Cathy
 
user55340
> A junior monk said to master Kaimu: One of the Patriarchs claimed that there are “only two hard things” in our craft. What are these “two hard things”?

Kaimu answered: You only need to remember that the first hard thing is called “cache invalidation”.

The junior monk asked: Does that mean that a whole cache is made invalid, or just some of its elements? And why call it “invalidation” when the only error is that the data is stale? Wouldn’t “cache element expiration” be a better name?

Kaimu answered: Now you know the second hard thing.
 
user55340
Btw, @RobertHarvey the images have mouse over texts.
 
user55340
Heh. Read this and the next two. thecodelesscode.com/case/221 Make sure to check mouse overs.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT that is hilarious
I don't read many of those, but that one there is absolute gold
 
user55340
If we took out the bones it wouldn't be crunchy.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
9:57 PM
Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance.

Jean-Paul Sartre
 
user55340
I had to think a bit about the lesson in the third one.
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
@Snowman heh I was actually debating whether to tell you about that too
@DeliriousSyntax Not everybody dies by chance; I choose my victims rather deliberately.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Well that's your preference
 
PreferenceBean
PreferenceBean
(NSA: i'm joking i'm joking i'm joking go hack an iphone)
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
lol
I can't see why they are haveing such troubloes with it
 
user55340
10:01 PM
@DeliriousSyntax because it is implemented well and securely and has the possibility of self destructing the data after 10 tries.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
But coucldnt you create a back up try 3 times then reboot with the backup?
 
user55340
I'll point out that parents who let toddlers use their phone who have had this happen tend to disable the feature after a reinstall.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
sounds simple enough rigth?
 
user55340
@DeliriousSyntax can't load backups if you can't take the backup. Need phone to be unlocked in order to back up.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Can't do a back up with usb?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
10:04 PM
my iPhone doesn't have anything like a USB port
 
enderland
enderland
today and yesterday have utterly demoralized me about the volume of... less than good questions
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
I'm sure theres a program that could backup current state
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@DeliriousSyntax but you have to install that program first
 
user55340
To transfer data from the iPhone it needs to be unlocked.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Ixrec that connector conveniently pins out to one though
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
10:04 PM
@DeliriousSyntax and Apple already handed over all the cloud data associated with that phone
 
Ampt
Ampt
you're assuming you can both backup and restore a locked iphone - you can't
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
SO it's completely impossible you say?
 
user55340
What's more - you can't do either.
 
Ampt
Ampt
at least not yet. Should apple create this new "FBI friendly" patch, it would enable that ability
@DeliriousSyntax Unless you're an apple engineer with apples signing key, yes
 
user114359
135
Q: Why can't the FBI read the key embedded in the iPhone's secure chip/ROM directly from hardware (silicon)?

user9806As far as I understand, the 4 digit passcode is combined (in some fashion) with a key stored in secure read only memory (e.g. secure enclave chip or similar), where it is directly embedded into silicon wiring to help prevent unauthorized reads. But no matter how strong or multi-layered or compli...

encryption aes iphone
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
10:06 PM
But then that would compromise everyones security ampt
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
that is the crux of the controversy, yes
 
Ampt
Ampt
@DeliriousSyntax aha, now you've seen the problem
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Once it's created it's created no destroying it
 
user55340
@DeliriousSyntax apple, with sufficient resources of time could create a firmware that they could sign and load on the phone. Doing so would open a Pandora's box of problems that no one is well equipped to shut.
 
user114359
53
Q: Why does the FBI ask Apple for help to decrypt an iPhone?

RocketNutsThe current debate of the FBI trying to get Apple to assist in decrypting an iPhone made me wonder: Normally, upon turning on an iPhone, everything is decrypted using a 4-digit pin (or actually, a key that is derived from the PIN with a strong KDF, but that's not the point here). The key element...

key-derivation brute-force-attack
 
Ampt
Ampt
10:07 PM
@MichaelT I dont even think it's a problem of resources or time
they likely have the capability to make such a firmware right now, but are unwilling to
 
user114359
@MichaelT It is not that simple, and nobody is quite sure if that is even possible due to the nature of the keystore on the phone (see the questions I linked)
 
user114359
well, nobody outside of Apple knows
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
Apple has yet to claim it is impossible, afaik
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Snowman Apple can likely force an OTA update
pure speculation, but I doubt it's unreasonable
 
user55340
@Ampt get a team of a dozen coders at $150k/y two months. It's pocket change to Apple... But it's also a court orderd slavery.
 
user55340
10:09 PM
@Ixrec they've claimed it is possible.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Well I'm on android so create that program apple
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT agreed, but the court may point out that it's pocket change
 
user55340
@DeliriousSyntax Google has sided with Apple.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@DeliriousSyntax more likely your phone is already compromised
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
aaaaaand out of CVs
I'm literally not even trying
 
enderland
enderland
10:11 PM
@Ixrec today was rough.
 
user55340
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
at least I got some sarcasm out of the last one
I am indifferent to efficiency until my business manager complains about slowness. Then I start caring very quickly. — Ixrec 1 min ago
 
user55340
 
user114359
@Ampt you need to read those questions and their answers. It looks like the iPhone may have write-only memory that performs a cryptographic function, combining the unlock PIN with memory that is unable to be read, returning what is essentially a hash of the combined values.
 
user114359
Combined with the hardware's self-destruct mechanism, that means they are probably reduced to copying the encrypted data and brute-forcing it offline. I am sure the NSA could do it in a few hours.
 
Ampt
Ampt
10:13 PM
@Snowman I believe one of the requests is to disable the self-destruct so that they can brute force it
if it's possible
 
user55340
@Snowman which gets to the "how do you read it" problem
 
user114359
right, but updates require the PIN to install, if I am reading those questions right. There is some confusion about whether that is true or not
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Ampt yes, that was on the list
@Snowman my iPhone requires me to enter the PIN before installing updates, so...the iPhone 5 ought to
(it was a 5 right?)
 
user55340
@Snowman with a set of yet to be written tools, Apple could force a new firmware on the phone.
 
user55340
@Ixrec 5c
 
Ampt
Ampt
10:15 PM
@MichaelT huh, interesting
@Snowman that's assuming that apple doesn't have a means of forcing an OTA update
which it may have
the long and the short of it is that no one but apple knows
 
user114359
8 mins ago, by Snowman
well, nobody outside of Apple knows
 
Ampt
Ampt
huh - my android isn't encyrpted
guess I know what I'm doing tonight
 
Duga
Duga
That is a question better suited for the Programmers Stack Overflow site, rather than Stack Overflow directly. — AntonH 6 secs ago
 
user55340
Btw, security.se has a lot on this recently: security.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/iphone
 
user55340
135
Q: Why can't the FBI read the key embedded in the iPhone's secure chip/ROM directly from hardware (silicon)?

user9806As far as I understand, the 4 digit passcode is combined (in some fashion) with a key stored in secure read only memory (e.g. secure enclave chip or similar), where it is directly embedded into silicon wiring to help prevent unauthorized reads. But no matter how strong or multi-layered or compli...

encryption aes iphone
 
Ampt
Ampt
10:20 PM
well I hope that security wins out in this battle
 
user114359
@MichaelT the question I linked a few minutes ago... I think you need more coffee
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
I like android because I love switching roms and tweaking things on it
 
user55340
4
Q: Why can't apple simply add the backdoor now and then remove it after the FBI is done?

James LuSummary of the current situation by @TTT Apple released an open letter to the public outlining their reasons for not complying with the FBI's demands to modify the iPhone's security mechanism. Here's a summary: The FBI has an iPhone in their possession which they would like to ...

encryption ios backdoor
 
Ampt
Ampt
now this is insightful:
Buying a dozen iPhones to test any physical extraction method would be a lot cheaper than everything about this affair, so one has to assume that the question is no longer about the San Bernardino case. — Thomas Pornin Feb 18 at 18:22
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
tbh I think the best outcome is the FBI gives up on asking for this trivially hackable iOS update and instead simply gives the phone to Apple so they can bang on it in a backroom and hand only that one guy's data over to the feds
 
Ampt
Ampt
10:21 PM
re: why not read it straight off the hardware
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
IOS doesn't have that capability from what I know
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Ampt the bear is always insightful
 
Ampt
Ampt
@DeliriousSyntax what capability?
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Changing roms and messing with everything
 
Ampt
Ampt
correct, but it also defaults to having encryption on, which android has not done up until the latest release
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
10:23 PM
Can't you encrypt it yourself I seen it in settings
 
Ampt
Ampt
yes, you can, but you're assuming people will care enough to do that
hell, I'm on here touting how great encryption is and I haven't done it
and, I have a relatively new and high-end phone that didn't have encryption on by default
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
frankly, I have no idea if my iPhone is encrypted
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
Well, I can do it :) And the world revolves around me so Im good
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Ixrec it is, by default
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
but I doubt there's anything valuable on it
 
user114359
10:25 PM
I don't keep anything worth encrypting on my phone, under the assumption that the NSA and FBI are already monitoring everything that passes through Verizon's towers.
 
Ampt
Ampt
That's a shite excuse
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I'm not seeing how that quote applies to what Snowman just said
 
Ampt
Ampt
just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean that you should bend over backwards.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
by...keeping private information off his phone?
 
Ampt
Ampt
no that was aimed at you :)
 
user114359
10:26 PM
I'm not opposed to encryption, I just treat my phone as disposable and already hacked. I keep important information encrypted on my PC
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
oh
I think we said the same thing though
 
user15026
@Ampt It's one of those things I need to do, but I always think of it at a time when it is inconvenient to get it done, like, well, right now
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Ixrec I'm just saying that "It's ok my phone isn't encrypted because I have nothing to hide" isn't a great mindset
just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you should allow the government to overreach
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I'm not actively turning my encryption off
I have HTTPS Everywhere on my browser, that's about as far as I go with the internet security paranoia (and even that I'm sometimes tempted to turn off because it breaks parts of SE)
 
user114359
@Ixrec TLS is great for encrypting communication, but does nothing to secure data at either endpoint.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
10:35 PM
never said it's a complete solution
whenever someone says "one of the things I do for security reasons is X" everyone immediately feels the need to say "if X is literally the only thing you do, you gonna get hacked son" as if that wasn't obvious to everyone
 
user114359
given that the FBI and NSA are known to run honeypots and compromise servers all over the world, it is an important point to make
 
user114359
FBI has direct access to data centers for AT&T, Google, and a few others
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
WHo uses TOR?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I'm not sufficiently paranoid for Tor
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
.onion sites are pretty interesting
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:38 PM
TOR isn't sufficiently paranoid for me. IPoAC for me.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
why thank you Wikipedia
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
@Ixrec I did the same thing
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
> IPoAC has been successfully implemented, but for only nine packets of data, with a packet loss ratio of 55% (due to user error),[2] and a response time ranging from 3000 seconds (~54 minutes) to over 6000 seconds (~1.77 hours). Thus, this technology suffers from poor latency.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Feb 19 at 23:13, by Jimmy Hoffa
yesterday, by enderland
@JimmyHoffa I'm never sure when you are serious or trolling ;-)
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I must know what this user error was
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:41 PM
@Ixrec fed them rice before transmission
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I am satisfied
 
user114359
 
Ampt
Ampt
tape a few 1tb SSDs to those things and baby you got some serious bandwidth goin on!
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
> One major benefit to using Avian Carriers is that this is
the only networking technology that earns frequent flyer miles, plus
the Concorde and First classes of service earn 50% bonus miles per
packet. Ostriches are an alternate carrier that have much greater
bulk transfer capability but provide slower delivery, and require the
use of bridges between domains.
 
Ampt
Ampt
Seriously though, SSDs are crazy light, and depending on how fast/far the pigeons can fly, you're talking serious throughput
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:46 PM
@Ampt actually, now that you mention it, the advent of MicroSDHC makes IPoAC a plausibly very high bandwidth protocol.. remember, you could send out an entire cage of pigeons at once too so it's technically unbounded
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa screw microSDHC, get some M.2 SSDs that have capacity and RW speed
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
> Andrew S. Tanenbaum, Computer Networks, 4th ed., p. 91
 
user114359
> The carriers may sleep while enqueued.
 
user114359
> Carriers in the queue too long may leave log entries, as shown on the scale.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
I'll take a micro sd card off your hand
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
10:49 PM
does your house support IPoAC?
 
Ampt
Ampt
The one on the left is MSata - it uses regular SATA connectors (the left most pad-set is the data connection)
the right is M.2 - even smaller for more carrier bandwidth
I find alternate data transmission methods like this super interesting
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
What kind of music do you extremely smart people listen to?
Is it like Für Elise? youtube.com/watch?v=lBLIdB33HOw
 
user15026
@ampt so I finished Mira Grant's Parasitology books
 
user15026
I'd honestly not recommend them at all
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@DeliriousSyntax I just listen to construction tractors underlaid by kittens meowing all day. There's a whole genre on YouTube, it's the best.
 
DeliriousSyntax
DeliriousSyntax
10:57 PM
Oh ok, I'll totally check it out
Feb 19 at 23:13, by Jimmy Hoffa
yesterday, by enderland
@JimmyHoffa I'm never sure when you are serious or trolling ;-)
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I was about to ask if that was hyperbole of a real thing or just nonsense
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ixrec seriously; back-hoes make a great low-droning sound accented with their bucket scrapes, a main coon over that is better than anything Neil Young ever did. Look it up.
 
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