The Whiteboard

Robert Harvey

6:01 PM

@GimmeTehRepz Do they give you like 30 days to try it out?

user114359

@Ixrec Either that or remember one strong password to track all the rest: keepass.info

Robert Harvey

NVM. It says 30 day trial in the license agreement. That thing I never read.

GimmeTehRepz

@RobertHarvey I've admittedly never used it myself. I'm typically using visual studio.

Ixrec

@Snowman The only reason I don't use a password manager is because it effectively ties me to one machine forever.

Robert Harvey

All these tools companies want you to pay for their stuff every year on a subscription basis now. I guess I can't blame them.

Ixrec

6:04 PM

if my laptop randomly explodes I want to be able to use a new laptop the day I buy it without losing all my online thingies

Robert Harvey

Whatever happened to OpenID? It was the big new thing, now it's yesterday's news.

GimmeTehRepz

@RobertHarvey Visual studio has a community edition which is free now though. I don't know what you're working on, but that's probably more than enough. VS Intellisense works with javascript.

Thomas Owens

I think a lot of sites are using OpenID now. In a lot of sites, I can log in with my Google account.

Ixrec

Ditto OpenID. What SE does with it is the smoothest multi-login/register experience I've seen ever, so it seems weird that I've never seen it anywhere else.

user114359

OpenID was a specific implementation of "single sign-on" and I am pretty sure the company behind it imploded.

user114359

6:06 PM

@Ixrec SE actually used OpenID back in the day

Ixrec

I thought it still did

Robert Harvey

@GimmeTehRepz I have Visual Studio 2013 Premium.

Ixrec

the only place I've ever heard of it is the SE page for making a new account on another site

user114359

Facebook and Google have single sign-on cornered now. Although I am disinclined to let Facebook get their meathooks into every other site I use.

Thomas Owens

It depends on the site for me.

Some make more sense for Facebook, but I use Google on most that allow it.

enderland

6:08 PM

I wish sites allowed both, some are only Facebook which is annoying

Ixrec

to complete my thought from earlier, I do use Chrome's password management quite a bit, and sites that support single sign-on through Google are very convenient for me

Facebook is quite dead to me, though somehow I've never seen a Facebook-only login page

user114359

@Ixrec If you trust your password DB to the cloud, there is always lastpass.com

enderland

@Snowman mine are in the cloud through dropbox/1password though

Thomas Owens

I kind of trust my password db to the cloud. I use KeePass, but store the encrypted file in Google Drive.

Ixrec

I may try it at some point, though I feel safer actually knowing what my passwords are so I have a prayer of recovering stuff when the browser/password manager breaks

Telastyn

6:11 PM

I am a bad user, and just have a bunch of passwords all over the place, even though there's only like 5 different ones.

Ixrec

you can probably tell I've lost accounts in the past but never had an account stolen

my priorities are exactly the opposite of what security-conscious people seem to think they should be

Robert Harvey

OK, my next question. Is visual design dead? Does everyone code their UI's bare metal nowadays, or are there still visual designers that you can drag/drop controls onto, a la Winforms?

enderland

@Ixrec my email password I know, and can do "forgot password" stuff whenever I forget them

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Eclipse has Window Builder Pro for Swing and SWT.

Ixrec

@enderland that works most of the time, though I have had a couple sites where I couldn't remember which username/email I used and recovery was incredibly tedious (and I ended up with 3-4 duplicate accounts)

Thomas Owens

6:14 PM

Isn't the "Visual" part of "Visual Studio" referring to the UI creation?

Robert Harvey

I associate Swing and GWT with the same era as Winforms. Visual Studio has a Winforms designer, but it's my impression that WPF developers hack their Xaml directly.

I could be wrong.

Thomas Owens

Never done WPF, so I don't know about that.

user114359

@RobertHarvey I always code UIs bare metal. I'm getting ready to start an open-source project, it will be wxWidgets in .cpp files

Robert Harvey

Don't the C++ folks always do everything bare metal?

user114359

@ThomasOwens I am pretty sure the Visual in VS refers to the fact it was one of the first GUI IDEs for Windows. While VB was drag-and-drop UI, VC++ had wizards and dialogs, plus a resource editor.

Robert Harvey

6:17 PM

I have Blend, but I haven't dug into that yet. It's asking me to set up a "developer license," but I don't have a MSDN account anymore. Not one that's active, anyway.

Thomas Owens

@Snowman That could be.

Robert Harvey

Ah, Blend is the Visual Designer for WPF.

Microsoft Blend

Microsoft Blend for Visual Studio (formerly Microsoft Expression Blend) is a user interface design tool developed and sold by Microsoft for creating graphical interfaces for web and desktop applications that blend the features of these two types of applications. It is an interactive, WYSIWYG front-end for designing XAML-based interfaces for Windows Presentation Foundation and Silverlight applications. It was one of the applications in the Microsoft Expression Studio suite before that suite was discontinued. Expression Blend supports the WPF text engine with advanced OpenType typography and ClearType...

user114359

@RobertHarvey QT has a GUI designer, I think Code::Blocks has one too but I have not used it in years.

Ixrec

I can only vouch for the internal tools used at my company, but since I think it makes an interesting data point: our previous toolset had a visual editor, which worked great for dragging buttons and labels into pixel-perfect alignment in simple apps, but in more complex and dynamically rearranging apps the visual part broke down into useless blobs and everyone edited the XML directly; the current toolset has no visual editor, everyone edits directly, and afaik nobody minds

Robert Harvey

Seems like a long way from, say, Photoshop.

Surely these really pretty websites aren't hacked together solely with angle brackets.

user114359

6:24 PM

@ThomasOwens although I could be wrong on that. I got into the game later, VC++ 6.0 (terrible, bug-ridden compiler and IDE) and VB 3.

GimmeTehRepz

7:08 PM

You can drag and drop UI elements in Visual Studio when using XAML+WPF. but it's about as reliable as dreamweaver with html elements.

psr

@RobertHarvey I'm using WebStorm. I like it, though it freezes for a few seconds now and then.

Telastyn

7:30 PM

seriously people, take the hint about not asking what language questions.

Ixrec

somehow we even got a "what text encoding" question today

GimmeTehRepz

@Telastyn I prefer English myself. cue laugh-track

Telastyn

English is the worst.

GimmeTehRepz

Even worse: American-English...

Ixrec

yeah, Japanese is much better

Telastyn

8:08 PM

except for the whole counter thing

and the abundance of implicit elements (pronouns, plurals)

Ixrec

I like the implicit parts

but I'll agree that the counting words are silly

Telastyn

sometimes I like the implicit parts, as a newb it sometimes makes stuff hard to read

Ixrec

once you grok the particles that issue goes away pretty fast

Telastyn

enh, it just means I know the parts of speech of the sentence, not the meat

and without pronoun context, it's harder to guess the meat.

anyways, time to go. w00t, Friday.

Ixrec

yes, it relies very heavily on context, it's a double-edged sword

see ya

enderland

8:17 PM

a friend of mine is convinced that in a few generations everyone will have a basic understanding of coding

Ixrec

there are multiple efforts to get coding into national curricula, so maybe

presumably it'll be like the mandatory languages classes; they can only succeed at exposing everyone to the subject, not making them competent, but that's probably still a good thing

enderland

I'm totally unconvinced that the ability to do anything meaningful with programming is even remotely a skill which can be taught en mass

Ixrec

it's true that a serious programming job will never be mass-teachable

but you can give people that core instinct of what computers are and aren't capable of, which could be quite valuable in the long run (how many non-techie people have you seen subconsciously expecting computers to be clairvoyant?)

alternatively, you can get kids legitimately excited about it by giving them all Lego Mindstorms

enderland

@Ixrec that only works so far...

Ixrec

@enderland It worked far enough for me =)

GimmeTehRepz

8:34 PM

meh, some people have no interest in learning how computers work, and there probably always will be. That's why there are jobs for people in technology.

durron597

@ThomasOwens sorry you didn't make a last minute 1600 vote rally. better luck next year :-/

psr

@durron597 That was @ampt 's job. What's the good of a sock puppet if you can't win all the elections?

Robert Harvey

8:51 PM

What I do know about programming is that employers' demands are much higher than they used to be. They want you to know everything you already need to know to do the job. They want you to hit the ground running.

That wasn't always the case. No job I ever had did I know everything I needed to know. In fact, most of what I've needed to know I've learned on the job.

In the past, you could count on people letting you solve their problems, regardless of your experience level, because they didn't understand what you did. Today every employer thinks they understand what you do, so they ask for the moon.

psr

@RobertHarvey Nor do I recall ever hiring anyone who knew everything they needed to know.

Ixrec

Is it even possible to know enough about a company's needs, customers and internal architecture to not require a bunch of on the job training right away?

Robert Harvey

There's this thing called a "Full Stack Developer." If you have this basket of skills (learned on someone else's dime, of course), then there are many jobs out there for which you qualify.

lol

Ixrec

there we go

Ampt

@psr I apologize that I have but one vote to cast, master

durron597

9:00 PM

@Ampt he means you plus the other 100 ~~dalmatians~~ sock puppets

Robert Harvey

Anyone know of a class I can take, something like "Advanced Relationship Techniques with the Female Species?"

Ampt

Yeah, but it's a co-req with Drinking-401

durron597

@RobertHarvey there's always PUA

@RobertHarvey imdb.com/title/tt1083958

Robert Harvey

Yeesh, no. I'm already married. But after 20 years, there are still some things that we haven't figured out.

Well, now that I've unrolled all my personal problems in The Whiteboard...

Ampt

oh, no, you're just looking for the Complete Women's Nervous System - A guide for beginners

Robert Harvey

9:08 PM

Yeah, that one.

Ampt

it's only 394 tomes long, but I hear the new edition will be closer to 450

Robert Harvey

user15026

We're not that complicated, I promise!

durron597

You could just dump your woes on us here. I suspect that internet programmers chatrooms select well for people who are good at social interaction

Robert Harvey

@AshleyNunn I think it's that we're too simple.

durron597

9:10 PM

I'm sure @Ampt will give you some serious, down to earth, relevant advice

Ampt

@durron597 I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or smug...

durron597

@Ampt Both

user41796

@RobertHarvey - RE: employer demands... That's a case where you want to have stories around "No, I didn't know all the things, but here's how I quickly came up to speed and saved the day."

user41796

Most reasonable companies understand that things change rapidly, and the ability to reason is valuable. But that's a soft skill and they like to see demonstrated evidence of "quick learning"

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 I've worked on HackerRank enough now where I can get through the puzzle tests. Now I need to figure out how to do the "design a system for us in 15 minutes" questions.

user41796

9:15 PM

HINT: All systems are essentially the same

user41796

persistence layer
access to persistence
some measure of business objects
UI

user41796

With vertical pipes for logging, authentication, whatnot

user41796

business objects can obviously expand, depending on if calculations are being run

user41796

I wonder if Booch has updated his architecture site lately

user41796

There's some good content buried within this site I'm a bit bummed his vision never fully played out on it

user41796

9:19 PM

He put a huge amount of research into the architecture of systems

Ampt

@GlenH7 That's just like, your opinion, man

user41796

Well, I'd fully answer the question. But then the evil hordes would just delete my answer. So I'll HINT away.

Ampt

Also, the Big Lebowski is on netflix now, so you really have no excuse

user41796

lack of time isn't an excuse?

Ampt

nope. you can always cut back on sleep

unless you're not a full-stack person or something

user41796

9:24 PM

That's usually pretty painful when I do that.

Ampt

you're practically not even a person at that point

user41796

Nope, definitely don't want to be a full-stack person (even though I am)

user41796

Well, I don't have to do sysadmin work anymore

Ampt

woah, you can't just call yourself that man

there needs to be a horde of 20 somethings sipping on lattes calling you that before you can just throw it out there

not cool man

user41796

Actually, that's not true. I do have some systems I babysit. :-(

Ampt

9:24 PM

not cool

user41796

I'm old. I'm the definition of not cool

Ixrec

when you guys say "full-stack person", do you just mean someone that is allowed to make changes to both the frontend and backend of the app, or someone that's a complete expert in all the technologies in each layer?

Ampt

they're an expert in everything

they'll tune your assembly and tell you what color to make your logo to make more sales

user41796

@Ampt speaking of which, I've been meaning to talk to you about the shade of blue in your sock puppet...

user41796

You know, it's springtime and all that. Adding in some hints of green could show some awareness of the season and all that

Ampt

9:27 PM

I'm a sock. anytime I'm outside I'm in a shoe, unless, god forbid, somebody is wearing socks with sandals

3

that's unpleasant for everyone involved, myself included

user41796

Woah, woah, woah now. Better be Birkenstocks and you need to get a much crazier look to carry that one off

user41796

The face and crazy eyes are a good start. But that's a really high bar you're talking about clearing there

user41796

Ugh! Dear Spotify, please don't play ads for country music on an EDM channel.

Ampt

9:43 PM

get spotify premium :P

GimmeTehRepz

I've never had spotify play relevant ads for me.

user41796

Playing country music to an EDM fan is like Pandora glitching out and horrifically slowing down the tempo of a song. Blech! BAD!

GimmeTehRepz

You'd think since they partnered with facebook they'd know enough about me to choose the right ads.

Ampt

I'm pretty sure they play the wrong ads on purpose

no way are they making 10 bucks a month showing you ads

more annoying ads = more subscriptions!

jeez you guys aren't nearly cynical enough

user41796

more annoying ads = back to pandora

Ampt

9:48 PM

they really aren't comparable though... one lets you choose your songs and the other doesn't

Ixrec

more annoying ads = no clicks for the ad providers

GimmeTehRepz

Yeah, I just quit using it.

Google music, grooveshark, and now amazon music all work way better.

Ampt

grooveshark is still a thing? Man I'm surprised that hasn't been shut down yet

GimmeTehRepz

Yeah they're still holding on. At least for now.

I actually prefer Pandora because it chooses music for me. It lets me hear new songs every so often.

durron597

10:07 PM

wat: arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/04/…

Ampt

@durron597 That's a bad thing... why?

Ixrec

sounds like a good thing to me

durron597

@Ampt Not if you like Java and Chrome

Ampt

@durron597 what websites are you going to that use java?

the 90's called - they want their web apps back

durron597

@Ampt Tropic Euro...

chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles

others

Ampt

10:15 PM

@durron597 case in point

why don't you just download them and run them locally?

whats the benefit of them being on the web?

is it really updated that often?

Ixrec

Notice they already have javascript versions there

which don't require me to authorize a plugin

Ampt

they are preparing for... the future!

Ixrec

I would love to know how the browser companies make strategic decisions about what needs deprecation and when to do it

Ixrec

10:47 PM

for the first time ever, I have run out of close votes

Steven Burnap

In the case of Chrome and Java, I am sure it is because Google doesn't give a damn about "Enterprise" software, and wants to push everyone to pure HTML5 solutions to remove the dependence on proprietary (non-Google) technologies.

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