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00:00
yaaaay new UTC day
oh yay no more repcap
00:31
Hi guys. I see you are off to a running start. :-)
@FaheemMitha hello! Good to see you here. :-)
They were planning on leaving in disgust, but no one could figure out how to quit.
Watch out, I hear @FaheemMitha is an Emacs spy...
:-P
00:45
Dammit, I was hoping nobody would realise. Now my cover is blown.
@Shog9 lol
see? It took all day, but finally that got funny again.
@PaulGessler Thanks. Just visiting to see what you guys are up to.
Congrats on the beta.
 
3 hours later…
03:39
how much reputation does it take to ask a question?
03:53
1, as always.
Say, would defaults be a meta tag? As in default behaviour when nothing else is specified (such as paste mode, or filename when no filename is given)?
 
6 hours later…
09:30
howdy vim folk
10:14
0
Q: Can syntax highlighting be made available?

muruWhile I wouldn't expect vimscript to be immediately available for highlighting, I think other languages aren't available either. I just tried to add it to this answer using both <!-- language: bash --> and <!-- language: lang-sh --> to no effect in the edit preview (so I didn't submit the suggest...

 
3 hours later…
12:49
I'm tempted to add an answer to the name of chat room question of "M-X chat" with a justification "because for some reason this morning I want the lowest-rated answer on meta" :-/
13:14
@derobert My EnVIronment was well on it's way there ;)
1
Q: Any ideas for a logo?

CarpetsmokerAny ideas for a logo? Perhaps something like :vi or :ask-vi (not like this, but properly drawn as a key).

13:28
@derobert heh, yeah, I considered something like that as well, but you have to be careful making jokes about religion, things could end badly! ;-)
0
Q: Are questions about `bvi` on-topic?

Carpetsmokerbvi is a vi-like hex exitor. Are questions about bvi on-topic? It's an editor I'm not sure how comparible it is, but AFAIK it's mostly compatible with vi It's a standalone program Also see: What is considered to be vi?

So, do most of you use Esc or Ctrl+C to exit insert mode?
/me is tempted to make a question "other ways to exit insert mode besides escape"
I use kj to leave insert mode
Didn't know you could use ^C ...
(Not me but) Caps mapped to Esc.
13:42
Is anyone else seeing the site without CSS btw ...?
En in normal mode I use <Enter> to save file. I very often combine j+k and <enter> to save my file
@OrangeTux How does that work?
@OrangeTux kj to leave insert? What?
I have CapsLock mapped to Esc (in all three OSes I work on)
something with noremap ?
Well, better hope you don't play blackjack
The nice thing about using something like 'kj' is that you can just map it in the vimrc. If you want to use Caps Lock you have to do it in the system level
Or never go to Reykjavik
@Carpetsmoker Well, exiting insert mode is an operation which I do very often. So the way to do that should be as simple as possible. ESC is to for away, Ctrl+C make my left hand hurt (I've got quite big hands) and i dont often type kj (only when I play cards ;))
kj is homerow, so I dont have to move my finger
ss
I have caps lock as CTRL; that makes ^C a lot easier
13:47
@thameera Thats the reason I didn't bind it to Caps Lock
i might try something like wvw (I use dvorak)
unfortunately dvorak's equivalent of kj is th, which is slightly more common ;)
wvw would be ,., on a qwerty keyboard
1
Q: Other ways to exit Insert mode besides Escape

durron597The primary reason I like vim over emacs is that my hand movement distance away from the home row is very low (even as a programmer). However, the one main time that I do this is leaving insert mode, by pressing Escape. I recently learned that I can use Ctrl+C to leave insert mode as well. Howev...

dvorak has commons keys on homerow, hasn't it? I guess finding a combination of keys on your homerow that you don't type often is harder.
here's the dvorak homerow:
aoeuidhtns
the whole point of dvorak is to have common keys on the homerow ;)
ETAOINSHrDlU <- capitalized are the keys on the homerow
But I can't even imagine using vim with dvorak. @durron597 You switched recently?
@thameera to vim or to dvorak
(the answer is no for both, fwiw)
13:52
@durron597 Dvorak
dvorak in 2003, vim in 2005
but i only use vim when i'm doing stuff at a cygwin or linux command line
I always thought vim was made with QWERTY in mind (with keys like hjkl)
22
A: Does the Dvorak keyboard increase typing speed?

Joel ReinSomewhat. Typists can, in fact, learn to type faster on a Dvorak keyboard, it's just not a big improvement. Consider, from The Standard and Dvorak Keyboards Revisited: Direct Measures of Speed: The Dvorak typewriter keyboard was found to produce speeds of keying 4.0 percent faster than tho...

@thameera it was. but i HATE emacs
i won't go back to qwerty and i refuse to use emacs, so i'm left with dvorak + vim
honestly most of the time i use / to move around anyway
I only use vim for editing when i'm on a command line, i use word if i care about how the document looks, i also use notepad++ a lot
I once read an article about other keyboard layouts. According to that article one layout was quite faster and relatively easy to learn because it looked like qwerty. A few keys where replaced. Unfortunately can't remember the link to article of name of keyboard layout either.
14:00
I think you mean colemak?
A keyboard layout is any specific mechanical, visual, or functional arrangement of the keys, legends, or key-meaning associations (respectively) of a computer, typewriter, or other typographic keyboard. Mechanical layout The placements and keys of a keyboard. Visual layout The arrangement of the legends (labels, markings, engravings) that appear on the keys of a keyboard. Functional layout The arrangement of the key-meaning associations, determined in software, of all the keys of a keyboard. Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending...
When I was typing in qwerty, my right hand was turned 90 degrees to the left (so my arms were perpendicular). very uncomfortable
@Carpetsmoker I think it is. Thanks!
I wouldn't really mind switching the layout if it means easier typing (don't really care about the speed improvements). But that'd be fatal to the Vim muscle memory I guess.
@thameera Expect 2 months of pain in the switching process
A lot of places say one month, but it's really two.
swithing to Dvorak or Colemak?
14:04
90 qwerty WPM -> 60 dvorak WPM after 1 month. It will take two to get to 90 again
dvorak. I've never used colemak
colemak should be easier to lear
I would think it would be MORE confusing. because it's so similar, your brain doesn't make the shift and would result in more typos. that's just my gut though, obviously i have no evidence
Also, I still type pretty quickly in qwerty, I have to use it pretty often on other people's computers
For me it's like speaking two different languages, and being able to think in both
For the Dutch people:
https://decorrespondent.nl/1783/We-kunnen-48-procent-sneller-typen-waarom-doen-we-het-dan-niet-/222952817252-6684738f
Taht page is nonsense
48% more efficient is not 48% faster typing
See the link to skeptics.SE, it's 6-7% faster typing at most
Which sounds insignificant (in the non-statistics sense). Especially if the lower 4% number is right.
Maybe dvorak leads to less RSI, I don't know, but that's a different question
"The 48% improvement mentioned in the De Correspondent article is based on the difference in typing effort of Dutch text using QWERTY and De Correspondent layout. I don't make the claim that the typing effort model is a linear representation of perceived effort—something that I feel would be extraordinarily difficult to assess for any model, given the subjective nature of the concept of "effort"."
hm, well, it seems the article is okay, skimming it, but the headline is crap
8
Q: Does the DVORAK keyboard layout reduce the risk of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

ChadI am a programmer and have been for over 20 years and I am starting to feel the effects of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I have always used the QWERTY style keyboard though I have often heard that the DVORAK style was better and more ergonomic. In doing research I found this site which claims: Ma...

"using computers in general does not cause carpal tunnel syndrome", hm, so why do many people think it does?
14:22
@Carpetsmoker many people think vaccines cause autism too. shrug
@Carpetsmoker Well, that's what those two cited sources are there to explain.
So, what am I likely to type more? Bathhouse, Hitchhiker, beachhead, withhold, etc., or vacuum, continuum, equus, etc.?
@durron597 Definitely vacuum. At least if you use older versions of PostgreSQL or (even current versions of) SQLite.
@derobert Why?
Plus this only matters for when i'm inside vim in insert mode, not inside a db command line
@durron597 vacuum is a SQL command in both of those systems. It searches for and cleans up freed disk space. (It was a joke.)
14:31
@derobert I guess my short story about how I got a hitchhiker to vacuum my beachhead bathhouse is right out.
@durron597 curious what's up with the choice of things to map? Couldn't you find a less common combination, like say jj ?
@derobert jj isn't in the homerow in dvorak
Ah yea, your other choice is ii then. Or -- if you never write TeX.
ii... radii, ascii, any roman numeral that ends in ii or iii, lots of other plurals...
@durron597 yeah. But those are normally uppercase.
(Well, except radii)
But yeah, ii is probably only once you run out of other choices.
Or just use something not on the home row.
14:39
@derobert I think the best option is to use Nano
I once saw an article about using footpedals with Emacs ... Perhaps the footpedal can be adjusted to vi so it sends Escape
@Carpetsmoker LOL, well, that's one way to solve the fewer than 14 fingers problem EMACS has.
15:25
I was going to ask a question where I couldn't find the answer in the manual. But I googled it… and found the answer on Unix & Linux… which I wrote 4 years ago.
I don't use vim intensively enough to remember this stuff.
@Gilles That's awesome.
not the first time it's happened to me
-1
Q: How do I make opening new tabs the default?

muruWhen I open vim with multiple files (vim f1 f2 ...), how can I make it open them in tabs directly, without using -p? I'm looking to separate out shell behaviour from vim behaviour, removing vim-based aliases, etc. That's why I'd prefer not to use aliases, etc. (hence, no -p). I'm pretty sure th...

6
Q: What do we do with questions that are already answered somewhere else on SE?

JasperThe title kind of says it all. I'm asking, because this Performing certain operations without clearing the clipboard question seems to be sufficiently answered http://stackoverflow.com/questions/54255/in-vim-is-there-a-way-to-delete-without-putting-text-in-the-register here. Close Downvote Cop...

Several times I tried to vote on an answer and was surprised to see that I couldn't because past me had posted it. Both upvotes and downvotes.
@OrangeTux commented
@Gilles your comment makes sens
e
15:32
So what does that mean @Gilles? That past you had more answers than current you? ;-)
15:52
@Carpetsmoker Nah. It means the present Gilles can search better. :P
16:02
@Gilles It can be worse. Someone pointed out that that I answered here was already answered on Stack Overflow. I didn't know. Turns out... I answered it there, back in '09 I think it was.
user4704
16:47
Tabs :(
17:05
1
Q: Adding in links to vimdoc

muruWhen I post on AskUbuntu or Unix & Linux, I like to add links to manpages (such as Ubuntu's, or linux.die.net's) of the commands that I use, or if someone posts an answer mentioning man foo, but doesn't link to an online version. I'd like to continue and encourage that practice here, with links t...

17:23
0
Q: Are vimgolf questions on-topic?

CarpetsmokerThis was also discussed in the proposal. In fact, this question is a copy of that question. Would asking vimgolf style questions be on topic on vi/vim? This is a type of question that is poorly suited for SO and most of the other SE sites. While it is conceivable that such a question would be ...

17:42
Questions about headstands while riding a unicycle and programming in vim are also not acceptable elsewhere :-) Should be have them on Vi.SE? — Carpetsmoker 24 mins ago
@Carpetsmoker I think the generally accepted example would be vim'ing on a Boat.
0
Q: How to include .vimrc for analyze?

SukminderWhen people have issue where Vim is not working as expected the root cause can (often) be tracked back to .vimrc (or an outdated / buggy plugin). As people often do not know which part of the rc file is at fault, they think they know, but are wrong, etc. I guess some way to include the users rc f...

@derobert Heh, we need !
@Carpetsmoker We have to be careful. That might make Jeff suddenly reappear, and nuke vi.se from the database...
Then we'd need a third vim proposal.
0
Q: Are answers offering plugins that address the question "link-only" answers?

Josh PetrieThere are quite a few questions one could ask about vim that can be legitimately answered with "yes, here's a link to a plugin that does exactly that." For example: How can I comment code with a command in Vim Is there a way to use different settings for different projects? How to get intellig...

Or we could just ... take care ... of the Jeff problem (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
17:55
Wow, things have really taken off since I was gone yesterday!
user4704
18:08
@derobert I thought this was the fourth.
user4704
I've definitely seen at least two before this one.
18:22
@JoshPetrie Not sure the actual count.
 
2 hours later…
20:42
Any interest in an tag?
5
Q: Other ways to exit Insert mode besides Escape

durron597The primary reason I like vim over emacs is that my hand movement distance away from the home row is very low (even as a programmer). However, the one main time that I do this is leaving insert mode, by pressing Escape. I recently learned that I can use Ctrl+C to leave insert mode as well. Howev...

Can you think of other example questions that could/would be tagged with it?
Using vim with alternative input devices, maybe?
You're right; we're probably better off without it.
21:05
@200_success What do you think about tag synonym to
Vim calls it key mappings btw, not key bindings...
(:help key-mapping)
So that's "more correct", IMHO
@Carpetsmoker When I made that post I looked for existing tags fwiw
0
Q: Typing out `<kbd>` for every single keystroke is a PITA

janosSome Stack Exchange sites seem to have custom formatting shortcuts. For example Code Review has \$ delimiters for cool MathJax expressions, which doesn't work on Stack Overflow. Since keystrokes will be very frequently used here, it would be good and important to make this kind of formatting as e...

@durron597 The trend seems to be a preference for "user-friendly" tag names over tag names based on technically correct Vim terminology.
But that might be worth a Meta discussion.
The good news is that SE tag renames are relatively easy to do.
@200_success not sure if is a very good tag name ... I liked the one better ...
3
Q: What is the relation between vi, nvi and vim?

peterhOn some unixes sometime I found a command named nvi. It was a vi-like editor, without much of its functionality. Maybe it was a fork of the old vi? Anyways, which vi versions are a fork of the others, and which are independent developments? Do they have a "family tree", similar to the unixes?

Which you added there...
21:15
My concern is that "history" would get muddled with undo.
I'm open to a better suggestion, though.
That's not much better. That would seem to exclude nvi history, for example.
and it would still be ambiguous.
Well, "vi" is generally taken to be "vi-like"
What's your objection to forks-and-versions?
I'm also not sure if anyone about muddle undo and history ...
21:17
Unix & Linux uses history for the history of Unix-like systems, and command-history for history in shells. history gets a lot of misuse, so I'm not sure about the wisdom of this name.
If it's possible to misinterpret a tag, someone eventually will.
Ehm, I'm not sure, actually
Science Fiction & Fantasy uses history for history depicted in science fiction works, and history-of for the history of the genre.
In this post, it's more about "history", and not about "forks and versions", I would never come up wiith the latter on my own
If I wanted to ask this question, I would tag it as history
I'd be OK with a synonym , if you are worried about discoverability.
21:19
Not "forks and versions"
0
A: What tag synonyms should be created?

durron597All of the following should be made synonyms of key-bindings remap noremap nnoremap vnoremap xnoremap snoremap onoremap inoremap lnoremap

@200_success Yeah, that's fine too
OK. I'll add it to the synonym request list.
21:37
hey guys, how simple can my questions be?
there are some simple things I want to ask about...I'm a Vim beginner
will simple stuff get closed?
sweet thanks
When in doubt you could maybe ask here first, but I think most questions should be fine
@AlexK As long as the questions are specific, not subjective, not a duplicate, and applicable to more than just you, you'll be fine
@AlexK Beginner questions are ok, but especially in the private beta, make sure to search first. Don't ask questions that can be answered by spending one minute to find the right section in the manual.
21:46
Do we need both and ? is already an umbrella for the plugin system.
You can use plugins fine without a plugin manager
yeah, I think would be specific to a plugin that manages plugins, whereas plugins supports all plugins.
Not sure that is a necessary distinction but I don't see a problem with it.
I'll leave both tags there then. Thanks.
@200_success Should we make the moderator nomination thread yet? I think you should be one for obvious reasons
@durron597 You generally wait until we've reached public beta. moderators are not appointed until then.
You can start the thread now, but it is pretty premature.
21:49
@Seth Yeah but we can still discuss it before then, no?
@Seth Thought it might be, but that's what asking in chat is for! :)
Way premature, in my opinion. Let's observe how community members behave over time.
@durron597 You can, but we don't even know if we're coming out of private beta. We all have high hopes but who knows what will actually happen.
@Seth Oh yeah I forgot that was a possibility
yeah, we also haven't had enough time to see who would be good candidates either.
@durron597 Yup! :)
But I thank you for your support nonetheless. =)
21:52
@200_success You've been really on the ball in meta and you're already a vetted moderator in CR. Seems obvious to me
Plus then we don't have to wait SE staff to do all this tag synonym crap, that's why I thought of it
@durron597 Day 2 of the beta is a bit early to worry about tag synonyms
Now is the time to worry about tag names.
Only a handful of tag synonyms should come out of the first couple of weeks
tag synonyms are for what people actually use, not for all possible variants that can be imagined
@Gilles Fair point, but a lot of the discussion in this chatroom has been about tag synonyms
But good synonyms help prevent undesired tags from getting created or re-created.
@200_success Have you seen any evidence up to this point that suggests synonyms are necessary?
@durron597 I think this is done after the private beta
21:57
@Doorknob I have, in my (few) own posts I've had doubt about what to do with certain tags
usually
@Doorknob Necessary, no. But only because I'm actively editing a lot of new posts to consolidate tags.
@200_success So the system is working as designed. Tag synonyms are only meant for cases where users repeatedly use an unwanted tag.
@200_success that's to be expected in the first days of the beta
BTW, I think it would be good if we had more questions that are not a very good fit on StackOverflow (or maybe even SuperUser), as that would validate the existence of vi.SE more ...
2
like maybe:
5
Q: What is the relation between vi, nvi and vim?

peterhOn some unixes sometime I found a command named nvi. It was a vi-like editor, without much of its functionality. Maybe it was a fork of the old vi? Anyways, which vi versions are a fork of the others, and which are independent developments? Do they have a "family tree", similar to the unixes?

or:
5
Q: How do I deal with very long lines in text (500+ characters)

CarpetsmokerFor some text formats line breaks matter. For example, I ofen use Vim to write MediaWiki documents, where you can't just put a linebreak anywhere (unlike Markdown). So I'm forced to write lines with a lot of characters. This can lead to long (200+ chars) to very long (1000+ chars) lines. I find ...

22:11
@Carpetsmoker That's a bad example: it's a “get to know you question”, you don't build a site with those
What do you mean?
But indeed, it's important to have questions that are not related to programming at all, otherwise this site will be closed as a duplicate of SO
Yeah, I've been trying to only post non-programming-related questions so far: vi.stackexchange.com/users/88/doorknob?tab=questions
Jeff Atwood on November 29, 2010

I recently had a long discussion on gaming meta regarding “Help me remember this game” questions. I’ll spare you all the gory details; my general conclusion was this:

If we get an excellent user who asks a good, thoughtful [game] identification question and sticks around in our community to participate, then it’s worth allowing it in those rare cases as a high quality “getting to know you” fun question.

This reminded me of a conversation I once had on Server Fault Chat about mod rewrite questions. This is a true gray area in our network. It’s tricky, bec …

@Carpetsmoker a question like “difference between vi, nvi and vim” might be cute the first time you see it, but it's very easily answered by a web search (Wikipedia has all the information). It's a poor question, especially for a private beta.
If you want to attract experts, you need questions whose answers require expertise.
22:36
hm, okay ... I suppose that wasn't the best example
23:31
0
Q: It is ok to ask questions involving tmux, terminal, or iTerm 2?

aharris88Tmux is often used in conjunction with vim, and sometimes I don't even know if the problem I'm experiencing is with vim, tmux, or my terminal. So, is it ok to ask questions about tmux, or the terminal?

23:41
@Gilles Explain your intention with the tag?
set option_name=val?
Seems kind of broad, and curiously it hasn't been used until your question. Hmm…
user4704
OTOH, vim calls them "options" in the docs. I can't think of a better term.
user4704
And I don't think it's neccessarily meta-enough?
But does the tag add value to the question?
user4704
23:45
Value? No. Searchability? Maybe.
user4704
A more specific tag could probably be substituted.
user4704
I'm trying to think of a question that "options" would help you find.
user4704
Something more than the trivial "how can I check the value of a particular option?" or something that like, because I don't think that kind of thing is distinctive enough.
Anyway, I think that would be much better than .
user4704
"What's the difference between optionname and optionname& in a set command?" maybe I guess you could tag that as "set" but "set" is also not a great tag.
23:50
@200_success er, because the question is about getting and setting an option in vimscript?
@200_success I disagree. The reference to the clipboard is just an example. It isn't what the question is about.
If pasting is just an example, then what is a second example for your question?
What I wonder is whether this question should be tagged . Because after all I knew how to do all this interactively, my question was about how to script it.
@200_success turning on automatic indentation or completion for one insertion
Could you add that to your question?
the most useful part of the answer for me was how to do something when exiting from insert mode
Your area of interest is not clear from the way you phrased the question.
23:55
By the way, is the tag correct? I don't think so, after all I'm not really defining a macro. What would be the proper terminology?
@200_success yeah, I gave an example and people are focusing on the finger instead of looking at the moon
I suggest leaving off the tag, as it presupposes a solution.
In my opinion, it would be better as a question focused on paste.
If you're lucky, you get an answer that is genralizable.
If not, then ask a follow-up question.
@200_success And that's how I wrote it.
So, applies after all.
@200_success No, dammit.
It is not about using the OS clipboard.
For example I could be using some kind of OS macro framework that feeds input into VIm.
I'd need the paste option for exactly the same reason as when pasting text into a terminal.
Then applies?
23:58
If I want "*p I know where to find it. Looking for it would be a valid question but it is not the question I asked.
@200_success No, I don't see why
If I'm having trouble interpreting it, then maybe what you asked isn't what you think you asked.
If I use an OS macro to feed keystrokes, it's irrelevant whether vim is running in a terminal

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