Ask Ubuntu General Room

TheWanderer

20:04

@ParanoidPanda wat

user136984

@TheWanderer: What wat?

TheWanderer

wat

user136984

Did you know that you can actually send him gifts?

user136984

I'm not going to but I might see if I can find any way of writing to him.

user136984

He has a very good soul.

Byte Commander

20:08

He who shall not be named?

TheWanderer

uh

I am confused

user136984

Why?

user136984

Maybe I'll send him a teddy bear.

user136984

I'd just like to be able to send something I know he will actually read.

user136984

I wonder who gets the teddy though? :D

user136984

20:12

Maybe we know how they make their money!

user136984

Selling what you send them that is.

user136984

:D

user136984

Probably the most reliable way to contact him is via Twitter.

user136984

But given that everybody is probably doing it he might not see it unless he actually looks at everything mentioning him name.

user136984

Why has the room gone so silent?

user136984

20:14

You're all still there right?

Eliah Kagan

Well I am.

I was just reading this interesting and extremely well answered question:

29

Q: GNU find and masking the {} for some shells - which?

The man page for GNU find states: -exec command ; [...] The string `{}' is replaced by the current file name being processed everywhere it occurs in the arguments to the command, not just in arguments where it is alone, as in some versions of find. Both of these...

user136984

Looks like I scared everyone else off then.

user136984

Honestly, Trump really is at least, the most warm and friendly politician I know today.

user136984

Warm colours bring happiness.

user136984

He has yellowy orange hair for god sake!

TheWanderer

20:17

is today Opposite Day?

user136984

No

user136984

I've always supported Trump.

Byte Commander

don't think so... maybe opossum day

TheWanderer

no you haven't @ParanoidPanda

user136984

I really have.

TheWanderer

20:19

Nov 5 '16 at 17:39, by Paranoid Panda

Poor baby is all I can say: Baby joins Trump on stage at rally in Tampa, Florida! :D

user136984

Although I must say, the reasons why I know support him, are different from originally.

TheWanderer

Oct 17 '16 at 19:20, by Paranoid Panda

I of course, with my luck, got Donald Trump. :P

Oct 10 '16 at 22:36, by Paranoid Panda

So because of this lying Clinton is ruled out for me, but I can't go for Trump either...

Jul 27 '16 at 14:10, by Paranoid Panda

Oh dear... My dreams are getting worse and worse... Donald Trump is appearing in them more and more!

Eliah Kagan

TheWanderer

Jun 20 '16 at 22:00, by Paranoid Panda

And I'm really not sure that Trump will make America "great again", more like even more of an ass hole country starting wars all over the place and whatnot... It was great at some point, but it hasn't really been so in a while (or at least it's been in decline), and he's just going to make it worse...

You did not support Trump as of 2016 @ParanoidPanda

user136984

I was more affected by pier pressure in those days and pretended not to support things that I did for the simple reason that I wanted to get along. I'm more open now and just don't go into things if I want to get along rather than pretending to be like others. It is also true that not all of me supported him, and that at the beginning of the year I didn't support him at all.

user136984

20:23

But I remember watching those debate videos and really being on his side and being really happy when he won.

TheWanderer

user136984

Then after a few months I decided he wasn't so great.

TheWanderer

he really isn't great at all

user136984

And as of recently I really like him again.

user136984

He's doing quite an honourable job.

user136984

20:24

But the way in which I like him is very different from all his other supporters.

TheWanderer

no he isn't

politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump

user136984

The fact that you think he isn't is proof it's working.

edwinksl

the amount of mental gymnastics is astounding

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda what?

user136984

@edwinksl: It's a good workout.

user136984

20:25

@TheWanderer: Well he's changing people like you.

TheWanderer

changing me?

user136984

Like you.

user136984

You don't like him but he's doing a lot of good.

user136984

If left up to people like you nothing would get done.

TheWanderer

give me concrete examples

user136984

20:28

Well that Muslim ban had some impact.

user136984

I guess the wall.

TheWanderer

the Muslim ban just got reversed because it was unconstitutional

the wall hasn't had anything happen at all

user136984

Obama put travel bans in place for most of those countries you know for the exact same reason that Trump stated and nobody minded that.

TheWanderer

actually no

the ban was specifically for Muslims

and it also targeted countries other than the ones Obama did

user136984

Did it actually specify that it would allow Christians from those countries?

user136984

20:31

Just because they were Muslim countries doesn't mean that the ban was biased in itself.

user136984

Unless it actually specified Muslims as a criteria?

Seth

It didn't.

TheWanderer

it apparently did cnn.com/2017/05/08/politics/trump-muslim-ban-campaign-website/…

and then they removed that language

Seth

It's a travel ban, not a muslim ban. Those just happen to be muslim exclusive countries. Like, if you're Christian in those countries you'll be killed.

user136984

I don't really trust CNN.

user136984

20:33

But anyway.

TheWanderer

but honestly, I don't think that travel ban did a thing

Seth

@TheWanderer campaign website != the actual thing that was put in place

user136984

You can understand why they would want to ban them, why would a Christian want to blow someone up in the name of terrorism?

Byte Commander

@ParanoidPanda Neither do I trust random pandas on the interwebz...

Seth

@TheWanderer I doubt it

TheWanderer

20:33

@Seth no but it reveals the motive

Seth

@ParanoidPanda eh, not jihad anyway.

@TheWanderer shrug

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda erm.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

there's an entire Wikipedia article on this

Byte Commander

Muslims have jihad, we had the crusades.... pretty much the same, you probably can't say that Christians were better there. Just most countries in which Christianity is dominant are more peaceful and civilized (and secularized) than those with Muslim dominance

user136984

I don't know think there's anything that recent in there @TheWanderer.

TheWanderer

Ku Klux Klan isn't recent? mmkay

Kaz Wolfe

20:36

ooh, did i miss some juicy drama?

TheWanderer

not yet

user136984

I wouldn't see them as terrorists. Maybe separatists.

TheWanderer

@KazWolfe == @edwinksl confirmed though

Seth

I mean, it depends on how you define terrorist Panda

violence with political motive is how most people define it

anyone of any religion can fall under that. It's just often not as religiously based as with Islam, although it does happen.

Byte Commander

@KazWolfe you just ran head-first into it...

Avery

20:37

@Seth no you won't

Seth

And frankly I don't think Islam is to blame, really.

Kaz Wolfe

i'd say terrorism is any act carried out in such a way that causes or is intended to cause fear

TheWanderer

I'm pretty sure the US is the problem @Seth

we may or may not have completely disrupted those regions

all the way back in 1945

Seth

I mean, the US bombings in Syria hardly makes anyone love the US eh?

Avery

And trump himself called it a muslim ban.

Seth

20:38

@Avery yes, you will.

user136984

Yes, I see it a something attacking the actual country with that in mind when doing it, not just a revenge attack on Muslims or something like that. I don't know, because that doesn't actually target the country or the people who are seen to properly be those who make it up and be the 'indigenous' people.

Seth

it's getting somewhat better more recently tho

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda that's a highly specific definition of terrorism that seems to only apply to Islam

Avery

@Seth no you won't, you don't know anything about how a first-hand life in these cultures are and if you steer off the extremist parts (which exist in every country, really), you'll be safe.

user136984

@TheWanderer: It's just my personal view.

TheWanderer

20:39

@Seth @Avery does live in Turkey

Seth

@TheWanderer Turkey isn't on the list

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda you can't use your view to argue the universal definition of terrorism

Avery

@Seth turkey also got visa services closed yesterday

TheWanderer

@Seth it's a pretty Islamic country, right next to Syria

user136984

@TheWanderer: I'm not arguing it, I'm just explaining how I feel about the word. As I said it's a personal view I'm not trying to define what should be used universally.

TheWanderer

20:40

@Seth you're in a very Christian country, right not next to Syria

Avery

@TheWanderer yup, a ton of syrian refugees too

I heard people say "death to all creatures in america, to dogs and everything", I heard people say "I'd stone christians", but NEITHER OF THOSE HAPPEN IN PRACTICE.

Seth

fine s/killed/persecuted/

Avery

you still won't.

Kaz Wolfe

> s/killed/persecuted/g

Seth

@KazWolfe don't be pedantic :P

TheWanderer

20:41

@KazWolfe gg

Seth

@Avery In Iran? Give me a break.

TheWanderer

Avery

@Seth In most countries banned in the travel thing, you'll be safe if you only visit as a tourist and don't go into more rural parts.

Seth

@Avery I'm not talking about tourism.

TheWanderer

I think @Seth is talking about residence

Avery

20:42

AND the travel ban is not US -> those countries, it's those countries -> US.

Seth

I'm talking about the people that are born and raised and live there.

TheWanderer

born and raised there probably don't want to be Christian

Avery

Do you seriously think that those people will fly to US and commit terrorism?

TheWanderer

propaganda!

@Avery apparently

Seth

@Avery read the backlog. You are missing so much context.. good grief.

user136984

20:43

If I was bombing a country I certainly wouldn't allow anyone from that country into mine. It's just a security hazard.

TheWanderer

"hehehehe, I have a 2oz bomb here that'll flatten the Empire State Building. Now to fly to the US from Syria, because I have that much money"

I should probably leave...

Seth

My point was the ban, as it's worded, forget what Trump says or has says, doesn't target Muslims. It targets countries. Those countries are almost exclusively Muslim. They don't really let their people have any other religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kaz Wolfe

@TheWanderer TSA: "NOOOOOO WE COULD HAVE STOPPED THIS IF WE ONLY LET 1OZ ON TO PLANES!"

Avery

@Seth I just did.

Seth

Either way a) I'm not a fan of the travel ban and b) I'm sure Trump's ultimate goal is to ban Muslims themselves.. which isn't going to help, whatever the wording of the ban currently is

Byte Commander

20:45

2oz? two ounces? 57g?

Avery

@Seth If the person who puts the ban in place says that it's a muslim ban and the bans are to countries that are muslim majority, then how is that not a muslim ban?

TheWanderer

@ByteCommander the TSA prevents more than 3oz of liquid in a single container on a plane

Byte Commander

aha

TheWanderer

granted, you can just take 20 3oz containers...

and an empty 60oz container

Byte Commander

nice

Android Dev

20:46

@Seth can you merge the answer from this into the Q it's duped to?

TheWanderer

basically, a lot of the TSA rules don't actually do anything more than make people feel safe

Avery

Alright I kinda dived head-in right now

TheWanderer

until they think about it

Kaz Wolfe

TSA is all security theatre

Seth

@Avery Um, a) I'm unaware of Trump calling it a "Muslim ban" and either way, what he calls it doesn't matter.. How it's worded does.

Avery

20:46

I'm sorry for being a bit harsh but I challenge your idea of it being not a muslim ban.

Seth

@Avery It isn't a Muslim ban until it bans Muslims. It doesn't, it bans travel from certain countries.

Avery

@Seth he literally posted a tweet with something like "psh who cares about what it is about legalities, it's a muslim ban"

TheWanderer

countries conveniently Muslim-majority

shouldn't Israel be banned too?

Seth

@Avery source plz

user136984

I think it was intended as a Muslim ban but was just worded in such a way that legally in terms of documenting it wasn't.

Seth

20:47

not that I'd be surprised

but source your statements

Avery

lemme dig

Seth

K

Byte Commander

@TheWanderer So TSA rule 1 is "don't think while you fly"?

TheWanderer

yehs

Android Dev

@Seth not trying to be annoying, but you did see my previous message, right?

Seth

20:48

@AndroidDev in my peripheral. thx

Kaz Wolfe

i love how hard it is to search twitter

Seth

@KazWolfe ikr

advanced search is ok tho

@AndroidDev better to flag it tho, that way it gets queued and not buried.

user136984

Because of people who wrote biographies of the life of Muhammed such as Ibn Ishaq I'm really not too sure what to think of Islam or at least those who follow those texts.

Android Dev

@Seth mods can't just merge with a button?

Avery

can't find the tweet right now

user136984

20:50

@Seth: Have you read that stuff?

user136984

Because it in itself could be to blame.

Seth

@AndroidDev they can but I have to review a bunch of stuff. Undoing a merge is a DB level task

@ParanoidPanda What stuff?

user136984

@Seth: What I said here.

Seth

@Avery Frankly, I don't think he made it. I follow him on twitter. What I remember him saying was "it's a travel ban" and people freaking out over it. Didn't really get why.

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda I've read some Islamic doctrine, and Christian, and Jewish

and my takeaway was religion is bad

Byte Commander

20:51

@Seth sounds like an architectural design mistake...

Seth

But he's very, err, frank, so who knows.

Kaz Wolfe

As far as I can tell from Twitter's awful search, Trump never used the word "muslim" and "ban" in the same tweet.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda no I missed that message.

Avery

but yeah the thing is, it's not exactly a direct muslim ban, sure, but it's "better" in the sense that people can't just say "I'm not a muslim" to get into US, but their whole country is banned.

But yeah some of the biggest muslim countries are banned now

Seth

@ByteCommander Well it's a very complicated procedure.

Avery

20:52

including turkey, starting yesterday.

user136984

Ibn Ishtaq who is a core writing in at least Sunnism says that Muhammad said it was fine to kill non-believers and take sex slaves.

Avery

just because one employee got arrested

Seth

idk why they'd ban Turkey

Android Dev

@Seth ok, flagged

Seth

not that Turkey spares us any love

but who's surprised.

TheWanderer

20:53

@ParanoidPanda Spanish Inquisition?

Seth

Act like a big bully get treated like a big bully.

user136984

According to him Muhammad was a horrible person who Isis is following perfectly. I think he's probably quite a lot to blame.

user136984

Ibn Ishtaq that is.

Byte Commander

I'm outta here for today. Don't burn anything down until I'm back.

Avery

@Seth apparently some guy got arrested for terrorist association

that guy worked on embassy

Seth

20:53

@PeterDavidCarter Hi!

Byte Commander

(and don't burn anything then either)

Avery

@Seth ohno

Seth

@Avery ouch, sounds.. bad?

Avery

then conveniently US shut down visa services for whole country for "security".

Seth

@Avery eh?

user136984

20:54

@ByteCommander: Don't worry, I have a bucket of water ready!

user136984

;)

Avery

@Seth user is known troll.

user136984

Although, I also have some marshmallows I really want to cook over the fire...

Seth

@Avery not very nice to say to their face, but ok ;)

Avery

@Seth yeah no.

TheWanderer

20:54

> The ban, however, contains an important exception: “Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may, on a case-by-case basis, and when in the national interest, issue visas or other immigration benefits to nationals of countries for which visas and benefits are otherwise blocked.” In other words, the secretaries can make exceptions — a provision that would, one hopes, fully allow interpreters and other proven allies to enter the U.S. during the 90-day period.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444370/donald-trump-refugee-executive-order-no-muslim-ban-separating-fact-hysteria

hmm

@ParanoidPanda you lit this fire lol

user136984

@TheWanderer: Duh, that's what you do when you have marshmallows you want to eat soon! ;)

Avery

@Seth considering he decided to take his trolling to my github issues in december 2016, I'm not sure if it is not nice. It's a fact that he used to be a known troll, and IDK if he improved a bit.

TheWanderer

Wat

Seth

@Avery well, considering how he hasn't said a single word here I'd appreciate it if you'd give people the benefit of doubt (or don't) but contact me privately or in another room about it. thx ;)

Avery

Ugh.

user136984

21:01

Anyway, what's wrong with a Muslim ban? Statistically, especially from those countries which are being bombed by the US and the fact that there is also so much ISIS propaganda probably directed at these people, Muslims are more likely as a to be terrorists. It's not like there's anyone else blowing anyone up at the moment. It's sad, but doesn't mean it's not true. Although, a mass deportation would probably work better than a ban on just a few countries.

Avery

Alright, I had some personal quarrel with the user, I do not think fondly of them, and that's affecting my initial opinions regarding them, though I'll try to be more careful about them.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda Well let's see. If we bomb X and then stop letting the refugees we just displaced escape.. what are we? Minimum I'd say international jerks

@Avery thx.

The US practically creates a lot of the terrorism problems for themselves.

Between arms deals with known evil regimes and fighting ISIS propaganda with bombs.

user136984

@Seth: They're not refugees the moment that they entered a safe country bordering where they escaped from. After that they just because economic migrants and are as worse off as those in Africa, doesn't mean you bring them all here, especially if they have real reason to hate you. It's like Allied forces letting Germans in the masses during WW2, it would ridiculous, and unthinkable.

user136984

Why bomb though in the first place if you feel sorry enough to let them move to your country?

user136984

If you're at war with a country and killing people who live there why would you let those angry people into you're country?

user136984

21:06

They don't say that they're at war but they're bombing them for god sake.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda Um, we're not at war with a country?

user136984

I know, that's what my next statement clarified, but it's pretty much the same in terms of at least how they will feel about you if you are bombing them.

Avery

@ParanoidPanda thing is, bans and deportations and "us and them"ing and everything just causes hate.

Seth

Dude, seriously, think about it. If the US was bombing your hometown all the time to kill ISIS or whatever you'd want out too. Can't be much worse of than bombs raining down on you. That's the situation most of these people are in.

Avery

The thing that'll stop terrorism is not hate, it's love.

@Seth aaaaaaaactually I heard that a number of syrians are returning to syria

user136984

21:08

@Avery It may do, but if we get rid of all those who will attack us with their hate, at least they'll take it elsewhere.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda Yeah, kinda. They hate ISIS too, most of them. But the continued bombing certainly doesn't help, does it? Again, most of them just want a way to live out their lives in peace.

Avery

so I guess war on isis is going well?

Seth

I have no idea.

user136984

@Seth Can't they go to another middle-easten country? There are plenty there without any trouble.

Avery

wrong.

well

Each has their own subset of issues

TheWanderer

21:09

@ParanoidPanda uh

user136984

@Avery: At least they aren't at war or being bombed. Why don't we do something similar for all of Africa then?

Seth

@ParanoidPanda well let's see.. Lebanon and Jordan are next to Israel, issues there. US just "cleaned out" Iraq. Iran has issues. Syria is a warzone, Libya is a warzone.. Egypt is oppressive. Heck Turkey is oppressive. Heck they're all oppressive. So no?

Terrorism is hardly a religious issue.

Avery

@ParanoidPanda see, you assume that the only thing that makes life hell is war and being bombed.

user136984

@Avery So send love at those who hate the Islamists and teach them to love and things should get a lot better.

Seth

Anywho, these conversations aren't well suited for the AUGR. Could we either create a new room or take it offsite? Thanks.

Avery

21:11

Loves to you, I guess.

You're supporting a mass deportation.

user136984

@Avery If they move to a country that is in the same state as Africa, then why help them, and not Africa? What have you got against black people?

TheWanderer

@Seth way too late for you to take that stance xD

Seth

@TheWanderer eh, there's nothing wrong with discussing it here, but if it turns into a long conversation and is politically charged it needs to eventually move.

Avery

see, Turkey doesn't have a large scale war and it isn't being bombed, and I still feel very much insecure here, and many other people do so too.

I don't think that anyone who lives in a first world country realizes how hard it is to get in US.

Seth

on the flipside there's practically no one here so I guess we're fine for now.

Avery

21:14

So when you're calling for a mass deportation, you're throwing away a lot of stuff.

You're destroying families, jobs, towns, lives.

And thing is, maybe a dozen of the millions of people involved are actual terrorists.

user136984

And saving a whole country. Maybe we don't need their problems.

user136984

Have you read any of Ibn Ishtaq? The most core Sunni writer.

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda you're British. What do you mean "we"?

user136984

@TheWanderer: Exactly

Seth

I mean mass refugee migrations aren't sustainable, it's true, @ParanoidPanda, but bombing them and then locking them inside is even less so.

Avery

21:16

@ParanoidPanda see, your first world privilege is talking here.

Oh yeah I used that word.

Seth

That's called creating terrorists.

Avery

You don't know how hard it is to get into a decent first world country.

Especially if you're from these areas

user136984

Don't bomb them then and just send foreign aid.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda Well that's a start.

user136984

@Avery: Maybe I want this to stay the first world and I don't want to just import the third world and all of its problems.

Seth

21:18

@ParanoidPanda Guess what, they're already your problems if you think the terrorists come from there.

Avery

You're assuming that all those problems will be brought with the people.

Not everyone who gets in is a terrorist, not everyone has that mentality.

Nearly all people who make it through are progressive people in a first world mentality, or something close to it.

Seth

@Avery frankly, it's probably easier for ISIS to "radicalize" (ugh, I hate that word) people already here than import terrorists.

user136984

I guess the Muslims were already here.

Avery

See, here's your problem.

You're assuming that muslims are the terrorists.

user136984

Statistically speaking, they are, just look at the news.

Avery

21:20

There are christian and atheist and jewish and everything terrorists.

TheWanderer

"Most terrorists are Muslims" may be true

but you can't take the converse

Avery

@TheWanderer only if you look at global data.

TheWanderer

you can't say "Most Muslims are terrorists" because that isn't how logic works

@Avery aren't we?

Avery

And that's mostly because people like classifying every single event in a war as terror attacks

67

A: Have there been more than 27,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11?

Those numbers are plausible but misleading. Islamic terrorist attacks are certainly a big threat if you live in a Middle-Eastern country with major terrorist presence (although typically not the biggest threat since these tend to be the countries which have a power vacuum due to some ongoing conf...

user136984

@Avery: I wouldn't trust anyone who has this guy as their main scripturer.

Avery

21:22

> The database tracks 38 terror incindents in the US in 2015. Of those, 8 are far-right attacks against muslims; 7 were islamic terrorist attacks; 5 were attacks against abortion clinics; 5 were far-right attacks against non-muslims (blacks etc); 1 attack was done by animal rights activists; 1 by anarchists; 11 attacks (mostly against churches) had no identifiable motivation (beyond, sometimes, mental illness).

let's deport far-right, then.

TheWanderer

Avery

@ParanoidPanda you're implying that every muslim follows that person.

or at least a majority.

user136984

They do, he's the main Sunni scripturer.

Avery

Look, turkey is mainly sunni, and I never even heard the guy.

terdon

@Seth (sorry, reading over the transcript) just wanted to point out that countries like Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, for example, have had significant Christian minorities for most of their history. The idea that you'll be prosecuted in those countries for being Christian is absurd. While there have been (recent) cases of persecution, those are cases and should not be taken as representative of the countries' culture.

Avery

21:25

also, there are ton of other branches of islam

like alevi or how that's written in english

Kaz Wolfe

like how there are 3n+1 branches of Christianity

user136984

Yes, but the major one, whether the people you know it or not, have this guy as like their main resource to know about Muhammad.

Avery

also y'know what? I'm done with this, I'm done with you, I'm done with this chatroom, I'm done with this OS. Goodbye everyone, please don't ping me.

user136984

@Avery: Bye

Seth

@terdon um, most of those countries have long histories of persecuting Christians.

Kaz Wolfe

21:26

Really.

Really, Torodial?

terdon

@Avery Just so you know, from what I saw of the transcript I'm really sorry I wasn't around. The level of crap and pure ignorance was astounding. Sorry.

user136984

@KazWolfe: I am a doughnut.

Avery

> please don't ping me

terdon

Sorry, my bad.

Seth

whelp

TheWanderer

21:27

@terdon that was at panda

Avery

you know where you can contact me, or seth can pass messages or whatever

Kaz Wolfe

here. let's just agree that all religions have a good and a bad side.

user136984

@terdon: It's not very nice to call people's personal opinions crap.

TheWanderer

@ParanoidPanda personal opinions can certainly be crap

Kaz Wolfe

I'd counter that it's also not very nice to stereotype people.

user136984

21:29

@TheWanderer: In other's personal opinions yes, but for a moderator to take such an unneutral tone, is not very professional.

terdon

@ParanoidPanda Who said anything about personal opinion? I was referring to nonfactual claims that are, in fact, crap.

Kaz Wolfe

Moderators are humans too, and are entitled to their own opinions.

imo, moderators only need to be neutral when making judgements

user136984

@terdon: Ok, I didn't make any of those, so that's fine then.

Kaz Wolfe

just because someone's elected to the role of internet god on some random website does not mean they need to give up their beliefs.

user136984

@KazWolfe Yes, but judging by the fact that I have previously been banned for the simply reason of disagreeing with a moderator on a political issue doesn't fill me with that much confidence. Some people here abuse their moderator powers.

Eliah Kagan

21:32

Although I've been in the room, I haven't been watching most of the conversation and my attention has been very much elsewhere. I don't want to ping anybody back in, but in case this gets read, I would join @terdon in saying that there's a lot of stuff that's been said in here that I disagree with extremely strenuously.

user136984

However if they don't fight with their powers but rather their arguments in a debate then that is fine.

terdon

Yes. That's us. We abuse our powers and take it out on poor innocent users who would never say anything that others find offensive or force people to leave this chat.

TheWanderer

@terdon twice

Kaz Wolfe

I think I was here for that incident. As best as I can remember, that ban was not regarding opinion but instead the tone carried.

terdon

Of course. It had nothing whatsoever to do with what was being expressed and everything to do with how it was being expressed.

user136984

21:33

@terdon: I don't force someone to leave this chat, they choose to do that, I could say that you are forcing me to leave this chat as well, in fact that argument is incredibly opinion based. Also, just because another user finds it offensive, does not mean it should be banned. Ban me then for supporting the US President.

user136984

I'm sure some find that very offensive.

Eliah Kagan

(To clarify what I said earlier, I am talking about the first post -- I don't know anything about the banning that happened that apparently several others do know about, and I'm not agreeing -- nor disagreeing -- with what @terdon has said about that. Nor is this a request for me to be clued in about it. I have to go afk real soon anyway.)

user136984

As far as I remember, I just express my personal view point and clarify what I think, the users and moderators of this chat room have been much nastier to me than I have been to them. And just because I disagree with you and express it when you challenge me does not mean I am being mean.

terdon

@EliahKagan Heh. Nice going on covering your posterior there ;)

Kaz Wolfe

there's a difference between just passively being there and people choosing to be offended about that, and actually offending people.

e.g. you can think RMS is a moron. That's fine and I doubt RMS would care.

However, if you call him a moron to his face, that might be a bit different.

TheWanderer

21:37

RMS?

Kaz Wolfe

Stallman

user136984

People get offended when they have an opinion which they believe is somehow morally above all others and should be defended by even the law. And thus when someone says something not along the lines of their view they get offended, that does not mean that you should ban the people they don't like. What if I got offended by you guys calling me mad for instance, would jokerdino get a ban?

Seth

To be clear, if someone had voiced that they were uncomfortable with the topic and wished to move away from it I would have enforced that. They didn't. We had a civil conversation. It's sad it ended this way.

Eliah Kagan

@terdon Thanks lol. I guess I look pretty two-faced and cowardly right now but that's how it goes. :) I had composed my first message first. Then I realized it might be misinterpreted.

If @ParanoidPanda or anybody was actually banned for expressing a political view then that sounds like a bad thing that should not have happened, but since enough people know about it already, I presume it can be discussed, challenged, etc., sufficiently without my assistance. I was mainly posting just in case Avery decides to check the transcript.

terdon

@EliahKagan It's not cowardly to choose not to get mired in the ugly underside of AU. Your profile pic notwithstanding.

user136984

21:39

@EliahKagan: Well, I argued with moderators about it, told them this was a dictatorship, they agreed with me, and that was that really.

Kaz Wolfe

@terdon seriously. if that profile pic actually is @EliahKagan, he looks like he has a fun life and is a chill guy to know

Eliah Kagan

@terdon Lolol. Well I mean remaining silent (due in part to distractions but y'all have no way to know that), then saying I disagreed with some unspecified stuff, then clarifying that I wasn't commenting on other stuff.... But yes, keeping my miredness at a managable level is my goal.

Kaz Wolfe

again, there's a line between "debate" and just being mean and enforcing one's opinions

terdon

@KazWolfe Either that or he's the happiest sewer worker evah!

Kaz Wolfe

which is why one of the bigger "rules" in debates is that if you can't see the other person's side, you shouldn't be debating.

user136984

21:42

@KazWolfe: I said something, I was asked to clarify my opinion and I was challenged, and I did, I wasn't trying to mean. I even only replied because they kept challenging stuff and I kept trying to re-explain my position and why it was fine.

Eliah Kagan

@ParanoidPanda I don't know when this happened and I hope people don't think I'm stirring the very muck I'm trying to stay out of by saying this... but if you think moderation action requires review, you can contact the community managers (on the contact page).

user136984

Really all that happened is some people got angry because I didn't agree with them and then some moderators took it upon themselves to get rid of me for that. That's all.

Eliah Kagan

@KazWolfe Thanks! Yes, that is actually me.

Seth

@ParanoidPanda That's certainly one way to view it.

user136984

@EliahKagan: I might some time actually, because it really was abuse of powers, I just fear that SE may be like that too.

Kaz Wolfe

21:45

If I'm not mistaken, the CMs were already informed of that event.

Eliah Kagan

Ok.

terdon

@KazWolfe Yes. CMs are informed of all suspensions. When a mod contacts a user, the message is forwarded to the CMs.

user136984

@EliahKagan: Well, judge for yourself, I know what I said wasn't popular, but I really do have the right to express it, or at least I should do. There may have been a bit of a misunderstanding at the beginning from the way I worded something, but we later found out that even the way I meant it wasn't 'acceptable'.

user136984

You see, I was going by the deluded idea that even if I was unpopular, I could express my views without fear of being banned. I was replying to this message.

user136984

Anyway, if we go into that again I will probably get banned.

user136984

21:53

So that's just for you, I need to go to bed anyway.

user136984

Anyway

user136984

At least Trump agrees with me.

user136984

Goodnight! :)

terdon

@ParanoidPanda I'll say this once and it's the only thing I'll say on the subject. Please take a moment and read the message you were sent when you were suspended. Read it carefully. That explains exactly why you were suspended and it was not for the specific opinions you were espousing. If that's what you understood from the message, then there's not much I can do to help.

user136984

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