Ask Ubuntu General Room

Amith KK

17:00

@BlueXrider Can I answer it tommorrow?

Please :D

I'm sleepy now...

I think I have an answer

BlueXrider

good night

Amith KK

@BlueXrider Good Night

BBT

George Edison

17:21

^--- What does everyone think?

Roland Taylor

Me likey

Me gusta*

aking1012

Nice

Geppettvs D'Constanzo

what's that?

George Edison

The future of the web.

Geppettvs D'Constanzo

the future is horrible... we can yet change it!

George Edison

17:23

Actually, it's a web browser for a new language called OOML we're developing.

Roland Taylor

@GeppettvsDConstanzo -_o?

Geppettvs D'Constanzo

just kidding, but it seems like a jump back into web browsing.

user19161

@GeorgeEdison Wait, what is that?

George Edison

Yeah, but we're fixing a lot of what's broken in ancient technologies like HTML, CSS, etc.

Shasteriskt

Curious what OOML stands for...

George Edison

17:26

@WillHunting It's a web browser we're working on - only it isn't your typical web browser.

@Shasteriskt OOML == Object Oriented Markup Language.

We've taken HTML and thrown it out the window.

user19161

@GeorgeEdison Er sorry, who is "we"? George and Co?

Octavian Damiean

o_O

George Edison

@RolandTaylor is involved.

user19161

Also, nice sunglasses there @george!

George Edison

@aking1012 also showed some interest.

Octavian Damiean

17:27

Tell me more.

Roland Taylor

and @jrg as well

George Edison

@OctavianDamiean I can do one up on that - we have a shared Google Doc.

I have to find it though...

Shasteriskt

Ooooh!

aking1012

It's interesting...it's just a monstrous undertaking

Roland Taylor

The longest journey begins with a single step :)

Octavian Damiean

17:29

Every journey beings with a step. :D

George Edison

@OctavianDamiean This is the original draft.

It's pretty simple, but describes the idea.

And Roland came up with this.

And the code for the browser is at launchpad.net/reevolution

BRB.

Roland Taylor

@OctavianDamiean your input is very welcome :D

Alvar

@GeorgeEdison can't be, it doesn't say google chrome anywhere....

Roland Taylor

@aking1012 tell me what you think

Octavian Damiean

Do you really want to go the C-route and have curly brace delimited scope or the Python-route and delimit scope by indention?

Roland Taylor

17:34

aking1012

I like it. I think I was just seeing the duck yesterday

Roland Taylor

@OctavianDamiean I think the Python route is comfortable, but when it comes to strictness it can be problematic

Octavian Damiean

How so?

Roland Taylor

Let's suppose you want to create a oneliner, like you can do with C++ and javascript, and paste that into your addressbar

you can't do that in python

(That being said, I prefer the way Python works, personally)

George Edison

@RolandTaylor Would it be possible to tilt that just a little bit so we can see the R a little bit better?

Roland Taylor

17:38

Sure :)

That was how I had it at first actually :P

Octavian Damiean

import pprint;pprint.pprint(zip(('Byte', 'KByte', 'MByte', 'GByte', 'TByte'), (1 << 10*i for i in xrange(5))))

George Edison

Oh yeah, that's right - Python lets you use semicolons.

Roland Taylor

I didn't know that :P

Octavian Damiean

That is a Python one-liner to calculate how many bytes a terrabyte is. ;)

Roland Taylor

Well then, I think a Python-style delimiter has my vote :D

George Edison

17:40

You guys are absolutely correct though - we need to ratify the syntax before we can go much further.

Because I need to write the parser for the language.

I guess we'll call it libooml - in typical Unix fashion.

Roland Taylor

woo hoo this is exciting :D

@jrg welcome

Octavian Damiean

Mhmm.

Roland Taylor

George Edison

Cool.

Octavian Damiean

How do you plan to implement styling?

Roland Taylor

17:43

Apparently because of the position of my lights and the fact that I used an orthographic lens, tilting also fixed the colour of the letters :D

George Edison

@OctavianDamiean We haven't figured that out yet.

Roland Taylor

@OctavianDamiean I'm thinking of this:

George Edison

Feel free to hop in and propose something!

Roland Taylor

Allow every element to have style properties, and optionally allow for ooml include files to modify styles

htorque

g'day!

Roland Taylor

17:44

So, not that far removed from CSS

htorque

any cool news i missed today?

Roland Taylor

@htorque hey :D

htorque

\o/

Takkat

Hi @htorque

Hi everybody else of course

htorque

hi hi

Roland Taylor

17:45

@Takkat hi!

jrg

Howdy

Octavian Damiean

You guys know about the DOM (Document Object Model) right?

jrg

@JorgeCastro you sure?

@jokerdino not blasphemous, its science.

BlueXrider

s'up boys

Octavian Damiean

Currently it looks like a JSON/YAML hybrid. Not quite sure what to think about it. Styling is not the only open question. How do you modify a website after it was rendered? Does OOML cover that?

htorque

17:51

aaaand i'm off again. have a nice day!

Octavian Damiean

If OOML doesn't cover it and you'd need a OOSL (Object Oriented Scripting Language) then you'd effectively have JavaScript.

I mean I agree that those technologies (HTML4 and JavaScript [to some extent]) are ancient but they are currently being reinvented and the performance of web browsers rendering and interpreting them is increasing incredibly fast.

Questions Feed

How to update Gnome to 3.4? http://askubuntu.com/questions/116766/how-to-update-gnome-to-3-4?atw=1 #installation

Tweeted by StackUbuntu on March 28, 2012 at 5:39 PM

George Edison

@OctavianDamiean The basic ideas behind HTML are hindering its progress, I feel.

Octavian Damiean

In what sense?

Roland Taylor

back

George Edison

17:58

HTML elements can't be extended.

You can't invent new elements, etc.

jrg

I invented the <troll> tag.

Octavian Damiean

What classification of elements are we talking about? Visual or just semantic and functional?

Roland Taylor

@OctavianDamiean if done correctly, OOML becomes it's own OOSL

George Edison

@OctavianDamiean All 3.

Octavian Damiean

I can see the last two being realizable but I don't quite see how the first one would.

George Edison

18:01

But we're still working out the specific details.

Octavian Damiean

Well not sure if it is wise to jump right into the specification if higher-level questions are not answered.

Roland Taylor

Don't 2+3 = 1?

George Edison

Well, I think there needs to be a bit of hopping back and forth.

Octavian Damiean

@RolandTaylor Not necessarily.

Roland Taylor

@GeorgeEdison I agree

aking1012

18:02

@jrg I'm curios, does the troll tag extend another tag? If so which one

George Edison

Think in high level terms but keep syntax in mind.

Roland Taylor

We start with a vision and then build the pieces from there

TheX

Hello
I heard there was work in progress here.

Roland Taylor

yep :D

TheX

What kind of work?

George Edison

18:04

Oh, and #reevolution on Freenode.

Roland Taylor

docs.google.com/document/d/…

TheX

Another markup language?

George Edison

Sort of - only better.

TheX

How so?

George Edison

It's explained in the Google Doc.

TheX

18:07

I don't have time to read that. Can't you just tell me the highlights?

Octavian Damiean

You know styling and post-rendering change which means an element API is quite substantial. Jumping right into the implementation of the parser and stuff like that is likely to waste quite a lot of man hours.

jrg

@aking1012 Makes everything bold.

Roland Taylor

back

@OctavianDamiean you are making good points, to be fair, but the beauty of a project like this is that we have no constraints to stop us - we have our imagination, ingenuity, and experience to build on :)

Octavian Damiean

#1: Implement the parser
#2: Think about the implementation of the styling part
#3: Find out that you need to rewrite quite a lot of the parser
#4: Rewrite the parser
#5: Think about the implementation of the post-rendering stuff
#6: Find out that there are incompatibilities with the styling part
#7: What now?

Roland Taylor

:P

Did you read my doc?

aking1012

18:14

@jrg nice...so in OOMP that would be: Element Troll:b{trolltext}

Octavian Damiean

I have read this book and I'd recommend it to everyone that plans any kind of software project.

amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/…

Roland Taylor

It's a bit shabby, but you should be able to see that the intention is have styling as a first class citizen

@aking1012 hey! that makes a lot of sense :D

base-class object:style{content}

jrg

I don't think HTML needs to be replaced, I think it needs to be updated.

aking1012

@RolandTaylor ty

Roland Taylor

@jrg we can always have an alternative ;)

jrg

18:15

I like my HAML. :p

Roland Taylor

lol show me the money

Octavian Damiean

@jrg Which is what is happening already. :)

jrg

@OctavianDamiean Exactly. :)

Octavian Damiean

whatwg.org

Roland Taylor

sigh... you guys lack vision

go work for Microsoft and Apple

run along!

Octavian Damiean

18:17

I wouldn't name Apple in such an example.

Roland Taylor

XD

Octavian Damiean

They didn't lack vision. ;)

aking1012

@RolandTaylor So as not to break anything I was considering b a class not a style. The class would have an embedded style of bold that could be overridden

Roland Taylor

true, Apple "innovates"... they just let samsung implement it for them :)

*cough* /troll off

@aking1012 oh I see

Octavian Damiean

codinghorror.com/blog/2012/03/welcome-to-the-post-pc-era.html

aking1012

18:19

That way your style classes look/act just like regular classes and there's no confusion

Octavian Damiean

I don't say that I agree with him buying two (or any) iPad but he makes some good points there.

jrg

> The 3rd Generation iPad has a display resolution of 264ppi. And still retains a ten-hour battery life (9 hours with wireless on). Make no mistake. That much resolution is stunning. To see it on a mainstream device like the iPad - rather than a $13,000 exotic monitor - is truly amazing, and something I've been waiting more than a decade to see. -- Bill Hills, the creator of ClearType

See? That is innovation there.

Samsung doesn't have anything close to that last I checked.

Roland Taylor

rubs eyes

@jrg who are you and what have you done with @jrg?

jrg

@RolandTaylor Nope, jrg is still jrg.

Octavian Damiean

And the guy whose quote that is really knows what he is talking about.

Roland Taylor

18:22

I don't believe you!

@jrg Samsung makes some of their components, actually :)

in fact, much of their stuff iirc

jrg

@RolandTaylor being pragmatic and being a fanboy are two different things.

no, foxconn. Which samsung also hired, but thats a minor distinction.

Octavian Damiean

nods

Roland Taylor

I know of foxconn, but isn't samsung involved in making some of Apple's products or at least the components?

(I'm sure I read that somewhere recently)

Octavian Damiean

They have three suppliers. Samsung, Sharp, and LGD.

jrg

I've held a new-new-new-iPad and also an old iPad. The display makes the device. AKA, the one innovation that is right.

Octavian Damiean

18:24

Of those displays I mean.

aking1012

@jrg I think any distro could have that kind of performance if they only supported a tiny subset of hardware

TheX

The iPad 3 has a higher resolution then the human eye is capable of processing.

jrg

@aking1012 Exactly. And that is what makes Apple great.

Octavian Damiean

Not that I like their politics but I totally agree.

Roland Taylor

@TheX I must not be a human then :S

then again I have not seen one irl yet

jrg

18:26

Ubuntu isn't even close to that level of support, and its considered "good".

Roland Taylor

only the old one

anyway folks - I'm out for now :D

cya later

TheX

Apple isn't great because they controlled there hardware. Apple is/was great because Steve jobs was an asshole and wasn't afraid to tell an engineer that there product was "bullshit"

jrg

Yeah, he threw an iPhone into his fish tank and said that because there was still air bubbles coming out, they could make it smaller.

That attitude (that is, the "No, this is wrong, it sucks and it looks ugly") is something that the Ubuntu/Linux community doesn't, and its because its open source.

TheX

Yeah Ubuntu could use someone like jobs to get rid of all the bs like unity.

jrg

Unity is only "bad" because we were stuck with gnome 2 "top panel bottom panel" for so. freakin. long.

George Edison

18:31

Gnome 3.4 FTW!

jrg

The linux desktop has looked like that (with minor changes) for almost 6 years.

A change that big (like the iPhone was) is going to get criticized. Its going to get slighted. If they had left it like the above screenshot, it'd be over. The year of the linux desktop would be... never.

@GeorgeEdison I really need to try that later today... fires up his vm

TheX

At least gnome 2.x was usable.

Takkat

The mother

They all did it that way.

jrg

@TheX What happened? I thought you were really loving Unity only a few months ago.

rlemon

ok, so i've still got a little ways to go. but I think it's functional enough to think about starting to port my stuff away from wordpress. testing.rlemon.com

it's still slow, but much faster than wordpress was. once I get some caching going things will be much much better.

jrg

18:45

Your 404 page is very un-helpful - testing.rlemon.com/resources

rlemon

lol yea like I said it needs work :P

search, caching, comments, proper admin interfaces.

rss

TheX

I have never "loved" unity.

I may have said it is slowly getting better

jrg

Oh, that was Roland who hated it originally.

TheX

Yeah he loves it now.

Bruno Pereira

@OctavianDamiean Lol, love it!

@JorgeCastro Ah, you cant fool any of us, you want that lamp! :P

jrg

19:05

@BrunoPereira Watch, he's already ordered one.

N.N.

Anyone who understands meta.askubuntu.com/a/2851/19490 and can explain for me?

I have tried to get clarifications in comments but they barely help me understand how the post is an argument for the question not being subjective.

jrg

It isn't worth a meta answer, so i'll just put it here.

Its a "good" kind of subjective. Accessibility is a really subjective subject by nature, and this question is also subjective (even more so than normal accessibility!) - however, it belongs here, its a good question, so its ok.

N.N.

@jrg Aye, accessibility is subjective per se but there is an objective aspect to it. You can compare how helpful different techniques are in enhancing accessibility, e.g. speed of inputing text, ability to recognize things on screen, time to do a particular task.

But that is not what I am after with my chat message above, I am trying to understand BlueXrider's argument and asked for help since his clarifying comments fail to enlighten me and I don't want to irritating him by asking for clarifications again and again.

jrg

19:34

Hm. Ok, i can see what you mean.

George Edison

Rubber duck debugging

Rubber duck debugging, Rubber Ducking, or the Rubber Duckie Test is an informal term used in software engineering to refer to a method of debugging code. The name is a reference to an apocryphal story in which an unnamed expert programmer would keep a rubber duck by his desk at all times, and debug his code by forcing himself to explain it, line-by-line, to the duck. To use this process, a programmer meticulously explains code to an inanimate object, such as a rubber duck, in the expectation that upon reaching a piece of incorrect code and trying to explain it, the programmer will notice...

What can I say?

jrg

More ducks please?

George Edison

The picture in the article is terribly funny.

aking1012

I love that term

David Oneill

Somewhere along the line I heard that called cardboard monkey instead of rubber duck...

I'd never heard it as rubber duck before :)

aking1012

19:45

@DavidOneill umumble.com/blogs/Programming/321

jrg

For example, you are not a programmer. You are a software craftsman.

aking1012

Is it considered bad form to work on two or three projects at a time because you get bored easily?

jrg

If it is, then I'm horrible. I do that all the time.

> Unicorny: An adjective to describe a feature that’s so early in the planning stages that it might as well be imaginary. This one comes from Rails Core Team member Yehuda Katz, who used it in his closing keynote at last year’s Windy City Rails to describe some of Rails’ upcoming features.

@JorgeCastro! We have the definition of Unicorn software!

George Edison

@aking1012 I'm currently working on about 24 projects right now :P

aking1012

Unicorns Inside...nuff said

Bruno Pereira

19:48

Got 4 new disks to set up raid, have 3 sata cables...

jrg

hey @rlemon, you have competition! - dvour.com

rlemon

SOB

I'll just have to add Unicorn power to mine.

Unicorn power === win

George Edison

@rlemon: I think you have magic quote problems.

...either that or something is getting double-escaped.

rlemon

huh

where

George Edison

On this page.

Toward the bottom.

> "That show\'s called a pilot."

I guess that wouldn't be a magic quote problem since that deals with $_POST.

Must be something else messing it up.

rlemon

19:53

slipsum.com error possibly.

i didn't check the data.

I just dumped it

that is odd

testing.rlemon.com

yup

escaping issue.

and apparently i'm not generating slugs

George Edison

Oh, if it's data you're POSTing - then maybe it is magic quotes.

rlemon

overwrote a commit? what? I swear I did that!

@GeorgeEdison I don't sanitize prior to this

$sth = $this->db->prepare('INSERT INTO posts (title, content, author_id) VALUES (:title, :content, :author_id)');
		$res = $sth->execute(array(
			':title' => $title,
			':content' => $content,
			':author_id' => Session::get('id')
		));

Santosh

how do I download the latest release of Wine (in .deb format)?

George Edison

@rlemon No, magic quotes has everything to do with data submitted via $_POST.

PHP (with magic quotes enabled) will automatically escape $_POST data.

So once it hits the database, it's already escaped and you're basically double-escaping it.

I have a method that fixes it, one sec...

function FixMagicQuotes()
{
    if(get_magic_quotes_gpc())
        foreach($_POST as $key => $value)
            $_POST[$key] = stripslashes($_POST[$key]);
}

That will fix them if it is turned on and otherwise do nothing.

rlemon

20:36

man i'm finding bugs.

software shouldn't have bugs

especially software i've written

this is completely unacceptable

N.N.

@rlemon and completely human

rlemon

@NN then my longing to be more like my human overlords is complete.

I still don't want bugs.

Questions Feed

Swag for the cleanup team http://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/2853/swag-for-the-cleanup-team?atw=1

Tweeted by StackUbuntu on March 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM

rlemon

for a admin interface for posting is there any good editors out there?

or should I just make my own.

maybe i'll make my own.

sigh

"ohh yea, I can code a blog in a few hours", on like 7 hours of dev over 3 days.

N.N.

@rlemon what is an "admin interface for posting"?

rlemon

20:49

WYSIWYG

I hate them. they all suck. so i'm writing my own. :P

I am also deciding to write my own paste service and simple image host.

image host will offer scaling/cropping/quality options.

all because i'm slightly annoyed with the services today; some are a pain to use, some I just don't much care for their interfaces.

jrg

I'll make one in 20 minutes, and it'll just have sane defaults.

rlemon

@jrg yea I suspect i'll spend more time on the UI than the actual codebehind.

but seriously, this blog business is a biatch.

so much I didn't consider off the bat.

aking1012

@rlemon I like scaffolding the UI...then doing functional code first...then handling UI

rlemon

@aking1012 I always mock up a UI first, then adapt it to fit.

aking1012

see i do it the other way around

rlemon

20:58

there always ends up being some tweaks...

my problem is that I don't ever sit down and plan the stuff out.

i wing it

jrg

Just Bootstrap it. ™

rlemon

so, like the blog for instance, I just realized I have no paging system.

ohhh I am Bootstrapping the hell out of it!

anyways

5 o'clock

bbl

aking1012

have a better one

jrg

Joy. US Election season - aka, "let us spam your youtube videos with ads"

tachyons

sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ktechlab/…

George Edison

21:44

@rlemon TinyMCE.

There, problem solved.

rlemon

@GeorgeEdison thats like saying "jQuery, problem solved"

TinyMCE is a beast and doesn't work as well as I need it to IMO

George Edison

Really?

rlemon

TinyMCE is not meant for a development blog.

George Edison

It took me about 10 minutes to integrate it into a custom Django admin.

rlemon

it's great for the every man.

I don't want a WYSIWYG, I just want an editor.

jrg

21:46

vim.

George Edison

Oh... like just a textarea?

rlemon

key commands, tag completion, etc.

textarea on crack

I know the markup, i'd rather write it than let some wysiwyg try to guess what I meant.

:P

jrg

MARKDOWN!

George Edison

Why not just use a plain old ordinary textarea?

rlemon

I am sorry for the confusion

because I want to have the comforts of my desktop editor.

the entire world is going web, it's only a matter of time before someone writes a really good, configurable, online editor tiered for programmers. and maybe i'll be that someone

gets out paper and pen

First step to programming anything good: paper and pen.

George Edison

21:50

Heh, sounds like fun.

I started one...

sandbox.quickmediasolutions.com/pp.html

All it does is display a fancy menu though.

...and it's Flash, so...

jrg

FLASH....

rlemon

i'm talking something like this github.com/rlemon/Liddle/blob/master/Notes.md

yes I know there is a dupe in the commands

:S

Oli

22:29

@GeorgeEdison What's wrong with HTML+CSS?

George Edison

@Oli It's broken.

HTML doesn't provide any way to reuse or extend elements.

CSS doesn't support inheritance.

I could go on...

Oli

Reuse HTML elements? Like what?

George Edison

Oh, completely unrelated but:

-7

Q: How can I use goto in Javascript?

I have some code that I absolutely must implement using goto. For example, I want to write a program like this: start: alert("RINSE"); alert("LATHER"); repeat: goto start Is there a way to do that in Javascript?

Please please no.

jrg

Wow, was only -4 a few minutes ago.

George Edison

@Oli Like if we create a new element (consisting of a bunch of other elements) and we want to reuse it, there is no way of doing that currently.

(Well, except for repeating the whole thing - code duplication.)

Of course, you can always throw JavaScript at the problem - but that's like throwing gasoline on a fire.

jrg

22:33

SASS mixins and HAML!

Oli

Okay - but they're you're defining a bunch of elements before you've even started to think about a DOM tree, let alone rendering it.

George Edison

Well we're still trying to figure out the best method for defining the layout.

Feel free to suggest something if you have an idea.

Oli

I'm not saying it wouldn't work - just that it muddies the waters a lot in terms of parsing. I personally admire how much you can do (quite simply) with a little HTML/XML and it still be understandable by eye. I do think there should be better semantic tags. I do agree that CSS is a mess but there are tools that help out there to allow you to write intelligently and deploy verbosely.

Oli

23:19

Anybody know somebody who might be willing to sponsor a patch? This is the last thing stopping me from upgrading to Precise.

bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dmraid/+bug/941874

Questions Feed

23:57

Bounty offered: Importing Radio Tray radio stations into Rhythmbox http://askubuntu.com/questions/112536/importing-radio-tray-radio-stations-into-rhythmbox?atw=1 #rhythmbox

Tweeted by StackUbuntu on March 28, 2012 at 11:39 PM

Transcript for