Game Development - 2020-09-28

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1:39 AM

@nonsensation When the room's not that active, it's often better to just state your question up-front. That way folks can answer as soon as they're back. If all we know is that you have a question, but not what that question is, then we have to wait for you to tell us before we can start working on answers.

And the worst we could say is "maybe you should ask that somewhere else" ;)

1:56 AM

Untitled Goose Game is fun!

7 hours later…

8:44 AM

@DMGregory :-) Thank you. Yeah, I guess so, but better safe than sorry I guess :-)
Okay: OpenGL and Textures:
When creating a texture, I have to use glActiveTexture before binding the texture, to 'assign' the texture to a specific texture unit. This means, I only can have MAX_TEXTURE_IMAGE_UNIT's textures 'in OpenGL-cache' at the same time, right?
This means, I basically have to load/bind/ the textures every frame when using a scene with more than the max tex-units amount of textures?
I am looking at this atm: https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Example/Texture_Shader_Binding

5 hours later…

1:20 PM

Re Monica's case, I think the "indignation and protests" came from the fact that a lot of people considered she had not violated the CoC yet, she just said she could/would not comply with the new proposed CoC, and she was dismissed because she "was a pain in the neck". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

From what I understood she didn't even do that. She just didn't comply with the CoC that didn't exist at the time.

She said something about every user having a specified pronoun being too difficult to remember and that was it.

Maybe that's what happened, I can't remember the details.

This also converges toward "I will not apply the new CoC".

I do agree that SE did not handle all this situation well.

Yeah. Figuring out who has which pronoun, finding people who use the wrong pronoun and then yelling at them to correct their mistake is just a stupid waste of moderators' time.

^ probably forever made me unsuitable as an SO moderator. If I wasn't classified as such before.

SE fucked it up bad

I advocate for "they", or removing he/she from english entirely. I mean, it's really seldom anyone really needs to know the gender of a person being referred to.

The spirit behind it was even reasonable. "Don't be a dick to transgender people" is something the community totally gets behind. The execution though was terrible.

1:30 PM

I think SE did not ask mods to be a "proactive pronoun police", just that if User A asked User B to use "they" instead of "bro", and then user B keeps on using "bro" or "sir" or... then a mod should handle a flag about this.

yeah nwp

When a mod interacts with users, it's quite "easy" to just use "they" until you know. I don't have had an issue here, as far as I'm aware. And if you interact often with the same users, you'll just learn their pronouns.

@nwp I agree.

yeah

@Vaillancourt Maybe some of them do. Some users are Portuguese and use "he" for everything because that's how it works in their language. Some users simple don't care about being social and can't be arsed to remember your pronoun. And some people are dicks. And you as a moderator have the task of figuring out who is a dick and who simply doesn't care. Good luck :P

2

what a mess

I did not know about that portugese thing

1:36 PM

I would say the job is to apply the CoC, not figure out the reason for users not respecting it. I think it has the "steps": slap on the wrist, kick, suspend.

Smh that's not what SO said.

Forgetting peoples pronouns is explicitly allowed. Using the wrong one on purpose is not. So to apply the CoC you must know the reason for people's use of pronouns.

I think you can tell by context

Which, from what I understand, is a major reason the moderators stepped down. It's just too difficult and too ridiculous.

A: Yeah, he did that.
B: please call me she.
A: an then, he did it again.

if we're talking about cases like this, it's obvious

if it's just one line with no other interaction, that can easily be "forget"

But, I can see how one line now and one line a week from now could generate a flag for "intentional" and it's not clear what SE meant to happen in that case.

it's easy to forget when you deal with enough people just by text on a daily basis

If someone forgets "too often", then that might as well be bad faith, or not careful enough. Ultimately, it causes harm and we don't want that.

1:41 PM

yeah

so this goes under "what a mess" for me as it's true that it's a gigantic gray area that people may not be comfortable making a call on

Yep.

I agree too that it may be a problem on some sites.

@Vaillancourt That alienates too many people. Some of them really want to focus on programming and just want to be able to use "they" and not have to care. But they are not allowed to, they must pay attention to who they are talking to and what previous interactions they've had. And they rather leave than burden themselves with that.

And in practice you just end up with the rule not being enforced anyways which is very unsatisfying.

I guess I'd have to see that on sites where it's an issue. I admit I have not seen it here.

From the meta posts I gathered that it's not a practical issue. SO is just not the place to hate on trans people. It's mostly an issue with people feeling misunderstood and villainized for no reason.

Having my Discord server and issues with staff I somewhat feel for SO. It's not easy dealing with these situations and sometimes, despite thinking you're completely open and reasonable it just doesn't work out.

hello

1:50 PM

At some point, they have to do things for the greater (corporate) good.

Hey!

How are things? other than SO being weird?

I need to start thinking of a Halloween event.

oooooo

Posting spooky pictures is the only thing I can think of and that's rather boring.

ooof

1:52 PM

did you guys used to meet "in person"?

Or, well, not very creative. It doesn't really pass as an event for a server where people would do that anyways.

No.

maybe change up the whole aesthetic for a month? get everyone to change their nicknames and pfp to something spooky, rename rolls, etc.?

Something like that, yeah. Though events should have an opt-out mechanism because no matter how fun the event there are always people who hate it. So just spookifying everone's nickname is too much.

Maybe theme the spooky picture, like what's the spookiest place at most 5 km around your house, and have a contest or something?

^

1:56 PM

Hmm, it's probably a bad time to make people go outside.

Maybe we can read spooky stories via voice chat.

(I'd have to post a picture of my refrigerator)

what is so scary about your fridge, Vail?

~~The mold that has achieved consciousness~~

thonk

A sandwich that I forgot there for too long, maybe? :P

1:58 PM

and now said sandwich is fortifying positions for when you have to clean it out?

What is spooky and works via chat?

spooky stories? good creepy pasta?

Stories is the only thing I can think of.

I'm not so sure about creepy pasta.

hmmm

by the way, is there any way i could join your server?

There is, but ... it's an 18+ server and it has correspondingly naughty stuff on it.

2:05 PM

o h

well, i could atleast friend ya

Now I'm not sure which account to give you, the programming one or the naughty one :D

aposeuihgapoi doesn't matter ;]

user92578

:D

user92578

How do you manage multiple Discord accounts? One in browser, one on desktop?

Multiple browsers?

2:08 PM

probably

yeah that's what I do (one in chrome one in the app)

user92578

But the browser client is pretty bad?

yeah it's not great

browser client is similar to app, just less features

user92578

It's also the default annoyingly, I have my work account logged in the browser, and sometimes accidentally join servers with it instead of my personal account

2:10 PM

oooof

user92578

The browser client has a really hard time realizing when I've read the messages or not

I heard stories like that with MS teams

that is true, browser pretty much requires you to respond to a message or hit the mark as read bar

and even sometimes it marks my own messages as unread

2:25 PM

@Tyyppi_77 Yup

soooo nwp.. what is your tag? or would you rather give just send me a friend request?

When I was younger and went to death metal shows, it happened a couple of times I saw older people (60+). At the time, I thought it must have been band members' parents, but now I think it could just have been normal fans.

I actually like the browser more. The client moves 2 steps when doing forward/backward mouse button.

But it does support streams.

Let me check my id.

user92578

Seems to just do one step for me?

user92578

(All though this was my first time trying that)

2:27 PM

I'm also on Linux, so that's probably part of the issue.

Toeger#6953 is the programming one.

aight, you'll be getting a friend from KaijZenal

Cool. It'll have to wait a few hours though, I'm still at work.

ah, oki

You're not one of those who get to work from home?

could be a proctored job site ;P

2:32 PM

No work from home. Maybe in a week or 2 when corona is worse than in the beginning.

I found the web app sometimes has trouble getting access to the mic

Yeah, that's getting like this here too; we've been working from home since the beginning though..

oof

That's all right, I can work in my PJs ;)

I haven't had issues with the mic, neither in the client nor in the browser. I did have issues streaming though. The Firefox version just cannot, the client cannot pick up application audio and Chrome ... I forgot. Something was wrong with that too.

2:36 PM

some mics refuse to work with the browser version, and overall, streams suck (kinda my end though, with low net speeds)

Streams have worked ok for me. Some audio desync, but that's probably due to the source having issues.

2 hours later…

4:13 PM

sup? sorry for having brought unnecessary discourse to the chat yesterday

"unnecessary discourse"?

5:12 PM

?

6:10 PM

I thought I would have some time to work on "personal projects", but it appears I need to bank time at work for when our kids will be sent back home. #wave2isgonnakillyou

:(

6:31 PM

@Vaillancourt just trying to show that i did not intend to bring argument or such on a subject different to the purpose of this chatroom.

Aaaanyway

I got my 'ECS' running

:D

@dot_Sp0T No worries :)

> Game development and other polite discussion. Game development conversations have priority.

If that was "unnecessary", I wonder what would be necessary ;)

@dot_Sp0T Cool!

And now the next step is to go one level up to a gameworld. How do you do that? (and how go about it in an ECS context?)

e.g. how/where would I store info about the gameworld (e.g. borders, and such?)

What are "borders"?

What's your world?

"borders" are "physics collision primitives" :P put a box at the end and prevent the player from going through.

exactly

user92578

Some people stick all of the world into the ECS, I like to keep it as a separate object since my model of ECS is a more traditional actor based one

6:34 PM

So you need "an entity with a collision component"

So I need a physics system

dangit

Well what kind of game are you working on?

Now that is the question. Eventually I want to have a 2d 'world' from top down probably, that I move my actor across and have it interact with different things, from other entities, to e..g water or mountains in the 'world' itself

Also I gotta get me into a situation where I get to find out how I move my camera or whatnot

:)

so the game is more of a device to drive development - rather than the ultimate goal

Well if those can't be passed through, perhaps you can plan to have them as "physics entities".

Then you'll have a hard time deciding what you need in the engine ;)

@Vaillancourt so far it worked quite well. I tried adding something, I expanded the engine for that

E.g. my text-rendering code has gone through at least 4 or 5 major revisions by now; and there's already new notes about how to possibly add new features

When the need arises

6:41 PM

Yeah, well it always depends on where you want to go. reusable stuff like the ECS architecture go into the engine, and if you plan to make only 2d stuff with it, then the 2d related components go into the engine to... but then if you want ONE thing to be 3d, you leave it out..

indeed

So a basic collision system could help. But ultimately, that's your game, so you could do it the way you like, like Tyyppi_77 pointed out :)

and that's ultimately why i come here :) I have no way I like bc I have no experience whatsoever on this subject.

but the collider idea sounds like a good way to go about

I was considering going into chunking worlddata first. But I think that makes no sense before I have an idea how I represent it all and have it interact

I guess if the world is really just one big plane i can use the extreme coordinates to determine if the camera reached the boundaries

yep that too

But factually that means for checking if i reached the boundaries, I'd need to make the (world)boundaries static/global to some degree

?

Hmmm

And then i guess have a camera system that applies any accumulated camera movements between system-executions and applies them to the camera with regards to all other relevant data

6:57 PM

An option is to have a componentBoundary and you need to pass that to your camera system.

(i am fancying trying to build a system that allows me to 'wrap' the world around. I.e. when reaching the far left end, it would render parts of the far right end and continue)

The boundary-component might be necessary, yeah. Am looking into generating a 'map' using voronoy graphs and then using the 'voronoy-tiles' as tiles with diff textures, etc. Thay would allow me, i think, to at least logically have no worldborders (obv i will need the boundary to know when to wrap around screencoords, etc). So the leftmost tile will have a reference to it's neighbour the rightmost tile

Cool! At least you know something that you need :D

Would probably also make for a fun rendering algorithm, as i could recursively visit neighbours until i hit the camera border

Now to find out how to generate voronoy graphs

If you use c++.

user92578

Of course there's a Boost library for that :DDDDD

7:04 PM

Yeah but i use java for some reason^^

And there's a boost lib for everything

@dot_Sp0T Ah, then you need to find the proper factory.

;)

This looks fun: redblobgames.com/x/1842-delaunay-voronoi-sphere

Anyone here ever mapped spherical coordinates to a 2d plane?

Nope.

I mean I could probably make it easier on myself and use some form of cartesian system - simply add more points along the x-axis at the equator and less and less towards the poles

I'd go for the quickest approach first, then expand based on what you've learned :)

7:20 PM

I guss I'm going to look into working with a spherical coordinate system

it sounds like an unnecessary amount of pain

And then use cartesian projection for rendering to the display

Well if you need that for the game, that's useful :)

Is that going to be tile based?

I guess

user92578

Isn't a sphere going to result in weird movement if mapped to a plane?

...and to tiles...?

user92578

A wrapping 2D world is usually a torus, right?

7:23 PM

@Tyyppi_77 probably yeah, but with the right projection that should work. Make the world big-enough and the camera-window small enough and you'll barely notice (learned from flatearthers)

@Tyyppi_77 as far as I learned yeah, most games only wrap 'East' and 'West' (e.g. thje CIV series)

these are not spheres, though, they're more like cylinders.

yeah CIV is a cylinder

user92578

A torus wraps top and bottom too

yes

the thing with tile based and "spheres" is that "meridians" are closer to each other at poles, and so your "tiles" would be narrower "near the poles".

That's what we call the Cartesian system

7:27 PM

yeah

torus is Asteroids

user92578

With a sphere you'll also end up in a case where can return to the same spot with 3 90 degree turns

Cartesian system assumes that "grid" have fixed size "cells". as far as I know

i mean a very rudimentary wrapping might just invert positive and negative X-coordinates when crossing at the topmost/bottommost Y-coordinate

so X100/Y100 becomes x-100/y-100

Looks like you have lots of stuff to try ;)

horrific

7:46 PM

hmmm, i wonder if it would be more or less work to make the world a collection of n-sided polygons instead of a proper sphere (e.g. a dodecahedron)

Looks like this opens up for easier future different types of worlds?

not so sure tbh. how would e.g. a coordinate system look like on each plane? a simple x/y(/z) system would have to be weirdly bounded along the edges

this seems to be a neat read: article. Let's hope the code at the end is readable still

8:01 PM

Well if you suppose that you're on a sphere, I guess the coordinate would be the one on the sphere, projected on your representation? This could work OK for any "convex" world

Guess i'll def have to look into projection matrices again - no chance using a simple orthoprojection^^

Hey, it's you who want to do 3d in 2d! :P (Or is it 2d in 3d?)

I just want a nice world wrapping around everywhere :'(

Don't like imposing made-up barriers

user92578

I don't think a sphere projected onto a top-down 2D game is going to work well, a torus is simple to implement, map, wrap and wraps everywhere

8:21 PM

I also think you'll have an easier time implementing a torus.

And it'd be even easier making it a nonwrapping quad :)

Yep!

But easy aint no fun

I suppose it depends on the end goal. Making it too hard might reduce and remove motivation to complete anything.

yeah

that's number one if you want to publish smoething

don't put the goal out of your own reach

8:35 PM

I see the following steps:
1. get a grip on a spherical coordinate system (which seems to mean that instead of xyz we use 2 angles and the distance from the center; which for 2d means 2 angles in theory)
2. map a 'tile-system' onto the sphere (lots of articles about subdividing cubes and other bodies around on the web, with sample code and applications)
3. find a correct camera-projection (e.g. cartesian) to paint it onto the 2d monitor
4. profits

goodnight everyone!

Lots of things to get right before the step 4 ;)

Good night!

I've been working on this on and off since 2014, I have time :)

👍

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Sep '2028

Game Development

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