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01:30
@Andrew I am not a Panthiest, I am a Panenthiest (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism)
Also after I get the attention from dangling the provable, I explain my testimony. Which I will share for you so that you may know and believe that the Lord is with me.
The Lord has given me the gift of prophecy. What this gift means is that what ever I say will happen will.
Meaning that as I say it, it is no longer me saying it, but him who is in me.
@fredsbend If the Lord was only an impersonal force I find it hard to logically conclude how the laws of motion can decipher the meaning of the words that come out of my mouth. To produce the result that happens.
@Andrew Then once i admit this then I usually receive demands of proof that I have this gift.
And in person I can share my experiences with those that are around me.
How I wish I could do this for the people online:
"My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, " (1 Corinthians 2:4 NRSVCE)
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The Burger King Testimonial
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I have a step daughter who has red hair. That once gave me much trouble.
Even as a young child she was bossy and defiant.
What was told to her to do, she would do the opposite. And on many occasions she would demand with a very commanding voice.
I thought to myself back in those days oh well at least she will be a manager somewhere.
Now she has grown up some, and has started to display kindness, yet she is still young and still filled with some of these habits.
One day I took her to Burger King, she likes to go because it gives her a chance to play with other kids her age.
Most of the other kids fear her because how she demands everyone to do things.
On this day there was a family there with four younger boys.
She wanted to play with them really bad, and she tried over and over to tell them to play with her. Yet they ran away.
It wasn't turning out to be a play date at Burger King like normal. Instead I could tell that her tension was building and that she was starting to get frustrated.
I also was starting to notice a vibe coming from some of the other parents because of what was going on.
She came down to me and I told her plainly, "You are to strong, and they are scared of you."
She did not believe me, and continued again to try to boss the kids into playing with her.
Then after a while, and honestly I can't tell you how much time passed. But it was enough.
I remember standing and said, "Ok, the lesson is over."
Then I prophesied, "So, now we are going to go." "So, Lizzy is going to come down."
A few moments later the Lord took her down out of the play area, and brought her to me.
Now I want to be clear that I do not think that anyone heard what I was saying. Except the Lord that is, and me ^^,
Again she complained that the boys did not want to play with her, and again I prophesied "So, we are going to go."
Then she started to complain that she did not want to go.
Then again the prophecy, "So, that coat is going on you."
Then the Lord put her coat on while she grumbled.
She started to complain about needing shoes.
Then again the prophecy, "So, those shoes are going to go on those feet."
Then the Lord took her over to the shoe area and she got her shoes on reluctantly.
Then she again gave me another outburst about staying.
Then again the prophecy, "Now, we are going to go, so yeah."
Then the Lord took her along side me to the car and we left.
This is all the detail that I want to add. Testimony end.
02:24
I'm so confused.
@JimG. About what?
03:15
If you always consider the action that you do, and the opposite reaction, and if that is acceptable. Then you will do well.
With prophecy as well. He blesses those that bless others, and he curses those that curse others.
So blessing positive prophecy to those that curse you fixes your position within the Law.
And by doing so he will always bless you if your blessing others.
 
19 hours later…
21:50
@fredsbend Confident about what, specifically? The character of God?
> Don't claim you're talking about the God of the Bible. You're not. You're talking about a fabrication of the human imagination.
Pretty confident.
> God told us who he is
A matter of debate. 40,000 denominations. I think we can agree that He at least wasn't very clear about it.
> and so if you're going to discuss the God of the bible, why bother arguing that he has any other characteristics than the ones he has told us he has?
Lack of mention is not proof of non-existence. More loosely, I'm sure you'd actually say there is more to God than the Bible reveals, so this statement doesn't jibe with that.
> We know who he is, because he told us.
Again, pretty confident in light of the numerous opinions that certainly contrast with yours (whatever that may be).
@fredsbend The Calculus is perfectly clear, and plenty of people have trouble understanding that. But honestly, I'm not sure if I understood what Only He is good was saying. still not sure...
@Andrew I don't know what he's saying either most of the time. I'm not talking about the Calculus. I dropped that course in high school.
What I do know of that, it does seem like Only mischaracterizes it.
@fredsbend I went through a period when I did not have the same confidence
@fredsbend I also called myself an agnostic then
I was disillusioned by "my parents' faith"
and I lacked the confidence to question it- I feared that it would not stand to reason, and so I didn't really have faith at all
and it was easier for me to acknowledge that I didn't believe than to put forth effort to discover if there was reasonableness behind what I had come to believe as a child, because I trusted my parents
but faith can not come through reason, because the testimony of Messiah does not stand up to reason, but turns it on its head
and so it is easy to dismiss the Scriptures on the grounds of the reason of the world. The gospel is quite foolish, indeed, when considering in the context of common sense and reason
the God of the Bible is opposed to worldy reason, like philosophy and science, and this is why I was so confident in saying that a god that can be described by a theory of science can not the the God of the Bible, and since that theory is a product of the human imagination, any god that bears a description in the theory must also be a product of human imagination
you said, "More loosely, I'm sure you'd actually say there is more to God than the Bible reveals, so this statement doesn't jibe with that." Perhaps he does, though I'm not confident making assertions about his characteristics that aren't found in the Scriptures.
Are you familiar with Jung's writings on alchemy?
22:53
As a manager in business school, this rings true:
> Jung's theory has become enormously influential in management theory; not just because managers and executives have to create an appropriate "management persona" (a corporate mask) and a persuasive identity,[46] but also because they have to evaluate what sort of people the workers are, in order to manage them (for example, using personality tests and peer reviews).
> the God of the Bible is opposed to worldy reason, like philosophy and science
I don't think so. Provers, anybody?
@Andrew So if you cannot reason into faith, how then is faith attained?
> Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
1 Peter 3:15
23:18
@fredsbend >>faith comes by hearing
> but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek
23:34
@Andrew Yes, I know you were referencing that verse. I'm much more interested in your answer to: "if you cannot reason into faith, how then is faith attained?"
I acknowledge 1 Peter 3:15, and I am not saying that I should not "provide an apology" for my hope, and that apology is the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ, which is markedly unreasonable.
I meant, the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, who is the very form of God
@fredsbend >faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the spoken word (rhematos, not logos) of Messiah.
excuse me, spoken word of God, not spoken word of Messiah
So, God gives the hearing, and the faith comes by the hearing. see Job 33
it is clear throughout the Scriptures hat faith comes from God, and not through reason
I can provide more examples if you like
@fredsbend About Jung, I ask about his book Alchemy and Psychology in it, Jung presents a very convincing defense of his thesis (which he worked very diligently to elucidate for the several decades after he published his physchoanalytic works) that Alchemy and psychology are identical
He describes the Alchemist as one who, without knowledge of the elements, considered he substances he studied to have spiritual characteristics, and he did not distinguish between the vital energy of man and that of fire, for example
The alchemist projected his psyche onto the substances he was studying, and in so doing produced countless treatises not truly on the subject of stone and metal, but chiefly on the subject of the human psyche

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