Game Development

Bogdan Marginean

3:00 PM

add the fact that CS exists for less than an average man's lifespan

and it's even more depressing

ToddersLegrande

I'm not too worried about doing something new from a logical level

Bogdan Marginean

it's one of my life's goals

I'd love to have some contribution in theoretical CS before I die

ToddersLegrande

Reinventing the wheel is a waste of time and anything I plan to do isn't going to require logic no one else has ever done before

Blue

@BogdanMarginean You'll be fine, I'll still upvote your correct content later on - if anything better content = more upvotes.

Bogdan Marginean

@Blue aw :'(

thanks :D

there was a discussion here, a while back, regarding each one's personal mantra

mine's a quote attributed to michelangelo buonarotti

goes along like this: The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.

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I should back away from the PC now

Gajoo

3:08 PM

clarification, when I say I was wrong, I don't mean wrong wrong! I mean not completely correct!

@ToddersLegrande I hate that expression, reinventing the wheel is not a waste of time, you either learn how the wheel was invented in the first place, or you'll make a better wheel

former means you've leaned something new, and later means you've done something great

Bogdan Marginean

Gajoo has a point, you may find design flaws this way

ToddersLegrande

The latter is highly unlikely

The former would be implementing something already known

Bogdan Marginean

and then again, sometimes reinventing the wheel is FUN :D

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande think about all the sorting algorithms out there.

ToddersLegrande

A* for example. You are going to have to implement it.

So I never counted that out

What I counted out was attempting to come up with something better / different when A* fits your needs.

Bogdan Marginean

3:12 PM

you're bored, so you're taking a problem on

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande still, there are better approaches to implement A*.

Bogdan Marginean

and instead of searching for solutions, you're thinking "how can I do this most efficiently?"

and you're having fun in the process

at least I am :D

Gajoo

based on the language you are using, and tiny specific differences your project has with general A*

ToddersLegrande

Yes but you still start with A* as your base and you just tweak it to fit your needs. It's ignorant to assume a generic algorithm 100% fits your needs

But you aren't creating something brand new and innovative thats completely different from A*, you are just modifying A* to fit your project

You should do that with any programming you do

To me, modifying an existing algorithm is not "reinventing the wheel"

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande depends.

I can safely say right now I know two completely different implementations for BFS

ToddersLegrande

3:18 PM

But the concept of what a BFS is stays intact for both implementations. Therefore, you did not reinvent the wheel

You took the definition of a BFS and implemented it the way that worked for you

If the concept itself is completely different it sounds wrong to me to call both of them BFS

Gajoo

they are both traversing graph with breadth first order. so they are both called BFS, but the value they assign to each node are computed differently. surely they both provide same results but the idea is totally different

one says when you move over an edge the ending node will have a distance exactly one higher than the starting node. the one says there is an external variable and whenever you enter a node the distance will be exactly equal to that distance variable.

Blue

@ToddersLegrande @Gajoo I'm trying to create a plugin of sots for the Unity3D editor to make A* easier for me. Might release it once it is done.

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo how is that not an example of modifying an existing wheel?

Gajoo

@Blue not really interested, I mean unity was never my thing.

Blue

@Gajoo wasn't so much an offer, more me jsut joining the conversation :D

Gajoo

3:24 PM

@ToddersLegrande depends on how you define reinventing. there is a code doing something, and you know there is that code, but you just think how you could have solved the problem and implement your own version.

turns out your new version is performing the same as the old version, I call this reinventing the wheel

like there are lots of JSON parsers out there, but people still write their own versions every now and then. this is reinventing the wheel.

the whole idea is to parse JSON data, and there is a solid algorithm telling you what to do, but still you don't like the interface of the existing libraries (like in our case) so implement your own.

Blue

But when you make it so fucking shiny its not just a wheel but a wheel with a rocket on it. Then you have reinvented a better wheel!

Bogdan Marginean

holy crap

a wheel with rockets on it

Blue

@CodeAssassin 27 votes ;)

Bogdan Marginean

but will you get the remainder of points tomorrow?

or are they forever lost?

Gajoo

also there is already JSON, XML, and lots of other data container formats, but you still don't like the looks of their layout, so you come up with your own data format it's reinventing the wheel

ToddersLegrande

3:28 PM

No

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande should I continue? giving the example of wheel reinventions?

ToddersLegrande

You aren't helping yourself in my opinion

If I am working on a project and I want to parse JSON data I'm not going to write my own parser. If I don't like the API then I might write a wrapper for the existing API that makes it more usable but I'm not going to write my own parser. This is reinventing the wheel and is a huge waste of my time.

If I have a need for a NEW data format I can do that

I better have a good reason more than "I don't like it" otherwise I'm just wasting everyones time

Almo

^^^

@BogdanMarginean any votes over 200 pts are lost rep. I got 195 once at SO.

ToddersLegrande

But we are way off topic now

Gajoo

still my parser beats all other parsers in terms of performance, and I do have an extra time to spend writing a parser.

visDEVion

3:30 PM

hi

Blue

Pity, I wish people would just wait til tomorrow and then put extra votes in :D

@visDEVion Yo

Code Assassin

@Blue ._.

┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`▭´)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

2

Bogdan Marginean

@visDEVion hi

Gajoo

that's reinventing a wheel (I do agree) but in the end I've spent my time learning something new (how to write a high performance parser) and my wheel looks shiny where other wheels don't.

visDEVion

i wanted to ask what should be the numbers for dmg, hp, mp and stuff on "big" rpg games?

should i take smaller numbers like 100-10000

ToddersLegrande

3:32 PM

@Gajoo but why were you writing a JSON parser?

visDEVion

or 10000-1000000

Bogdan Marginean

how about 1-100 with resistances applied?

Almo

I don't like massive numbers in RPGs

I like a char with a lot of health to have no more than 250 or 500

Bogdan Marginean

1-100 health with a strong armor would die harder

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande back then I wrote it because I had lots of free time, and I didn't like the interfaces of the existing parsers.

Almo

3:33 PM

unless it's a special case like with Disgaea, where the level cap is 9,999.

Blue

@CodeAssassin now your table flip is double starred!

Almo

Bard's Tale 3 went too far for my taste with its thousands of damage from a single spell

Wizard's Crown got it just right.

but that was a pretty hardcore game written/designed by some wargame guys (one who was responsible for Panzer General).

Gajoo

note that free time is the key point. I do use already build wheels when I don't have extra time to spend, but when I do, what harm could it cause trying to solve a problem with a new approach?

Bogdan Marginean

I wrote my own key-value based data format for my game, simply because I felt more comfy with it

and it only took me 10 minutes to write a reusable parser

{[ID:IT_FO_TROUT]
[Name:Trout]
[Description:A raw trout.]
[Value:10]

[3DModel:null]
[InventoryIcon:InvIcons/Temp/trout]

[Tag:Consumable]
[Tag:Food]
[Tag:Stackable]

[OnConsume:RestoreHealth(15)]}

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo so you agree that when you don't have time to waste that you don't spend your time reinventing wheels?

I rest my case

Almo

3:35 PM

baboom

time to lay out architecture and stuff for the new project

ToddersLegrande

I will agree that if you have the time to try to do something better sure, go ahead and do it

Almo

lotsa fun

Gajoo

@BogdanMarginean I don't like it, use JSON

ToddersLegrande

I cannot argue with that hence my reason for asking your motivation to write a new JSON parser

Almo

but whether you have time or not when working for someone else is up to them, not you

Bogdan Marginean

3:35 PM

@Gajoo you better give me a FREAKING GOOD reason for that

Almo

hahaha

ToddersLegrande

But you are never going to do that when your goal is to complete a project that's primary goal isn't to "write a better JSON parser"

Gajoo

@BogdanMarginean I don't like it! does a better reason to do something even exist in any case?

Almo

I wrote a JSON writer for a project for some reason

Bogdan Marginean

yeah, there is one: "I (as in me) don't like it"

not you :P

Almo

3:37 PM

"I don't like it" is not good enough if the time to redo it isn't warranted by the project

Gajoo

@BogdanMarginean and that's where our priorities collide! I don't want to even see your face any more

@ToddersLegrande true

Blue

Right I'm off home

Cya guys in a bit

@Blue later buddy

bye blue

@CodeAssassin (28)

3:38 PM

@Blue LOL

Blue

:D

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande generally reinventing the wheels is the only thing most people do at universities :P

Bogdan Marginean

@Blue cya :D

Code Assassin

(ง'̀-'́)ง

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo Again, can't argue with that :)

Bogdan Marginean

3:39 PM

code has the most awesome smileys

lol

ToddersLegrande

It's a good way to learn but overall unnecessary in the job

There are jobs where writing new stuff will happen

(っ◔◡◔)っ ★
(っ◔◡◔)っ ^

lol

LOL

but the majority of programming jobs you will be commended for your smart use of existing tools / libraries and probably frowned upon for wasting company time by not using the resources available to you

Bogdan Marginean

3:40 PM

all I can do is

^_^

ToddersLegrande

If I had all the free time in the world I would probably reinvent tons of wheels just for fun :)

But overall, its a waste of time for me

I'd rather spend my time writing games, not wheels

Almo

I'd rather design games, write games or play games than reinvent wheels.

Bogdan Marginean

I'd rather do both

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande I do like inventing game wheels.

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo and if you've got time for it great :)

Bogdan Marginean

3:43 PM

there's always time for whatever comes to mind

I could stop chatting here and reinvent a wheel for example

ToddersLegrande

Why spend all your time making wheels when you could be making race cars?

Bad analogy :P

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande sometimes I do, sometimes I don't but in the end I end up writing my own implementations most of the time, and people do really appreciate it since they don't know what they want and having your own wheel and adding things on top of it, is much safer compared to using different shaped wheels and trying to match them together.

Almo

it's not safer, actually

Gajoo

@Almo let me clarify:

Almo

rewriting stl:vector for example would be fraught with peril

Gajoo

3:46 PM

in the game I'm working on, I used to use CCTMXTiledMap (cocos2d-x) for everything I did.

the time came when I felt like adding more features to existing codebase would take more time compared to re-implementing that class from scratch with new features I needed

so I ended up writing a class with exactly same amount of features as CTMXTiledMap, with one big difference, I was able to expand it whenever I felt like pumping in new features.

it sure took some time (about a 3 days if I remember correctly) back then but it saved more than 4 weeks when later I had to add new features.

ToddersLegrande

No inheritance in the language you were using?

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande C++ does have inheritance but the whole design changed in the process.

ToddersLegrande

I don't know C++ / cocos2d-x well enough to say what you did was wrong or right but I have this feeling there may have been more efficient ways to accomplish what you set out to do

Gajoo

so inheritance could not solve the issue, also I was almost having a performance issue with CCTMXTiledMap, which was completely solved with my new implementation.

ToddersLegrande

What were you doing that you had such poor performance?

Gajoo

3:56 PM

with the old design, there were multiple TimeMaps, and I was iterating over them asking each to draw itself, which resulted in at least 4 draw calls per frame for that section of my code.

Bogdan Marginean

@ToddersLegrande I find chatting here equally fun as my coding

ToddersLegrande

@BogdanMarginean love this place <3

Gajoo

with the new design I've eliminated extra draw calls and also reduced number of triangles drawn in total, so it was win-win.

John McDonald

@BogdanMarginean yeah... dangerous

Bogdan Marginean

before I came here I had no one to talk about programming with :(

not sure how many can relate

Gajoo

3:58 PM

@BogdanMarginean one day you'll open your eyes and find yourself chat-ohalic like me competing to beat every one else in terms of number of messages.

John McDonald

@BogdanMarginean I had one, but we argued constantly. For some reason we decided to start a project together, and now we no longer talk. So now I have you guys! <3

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo cool. To me that either sounds like a bug with cocos2d-x or an improper use of the class

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande it was neither, the class was just not designed for that kind of usage

ToddersLegrande

@Gajoo right. That was one of two possible interpretations of "improper use" of the class.

Which then gives you the right to write a new class if one doesn't exist for you already

AKA - not reinventing the wheel

I'm not going to use a JSON parser to try and parse XML after all :P

Gajoo

@ToddersLegrande it was not that much different, it was like using XML parser to parse and HTML

Bogdan Marginean

4:04 PM

@JohnMcDonald it happens :P

I argued with two users here

there's a saying that goes like "opposites attract"

John McDonald

:/ yeah. We'd argue about the stupidest things too

ToddersLegrande

Same thing though, unless we're talking XHTML Strict

Bogdan Marginean

the more similar I am with someone, the higher the chances for us to argue

ToddersLegrande

@JohnMcDonald did you argue about wheels? :P

@JohnMcDonald also <3

John McDonald

heh. We argued about definitions of stuff primarily

like: "What is a Sprite?"

Bogdan Marginean

4:05 PM

I lost my best friend this way

because we were too much the same and there was no place for two of us lol

he was the only one laughing at my shitty coding jokes :(

I'm telling you, the best kind of relationship is a business relationship

clear mutual interest

nobody is irreplaceable

John McDonald

meh. I have a good circle of board game nerd friends now, :)

ToddersLegrande

@JohnMcDonald I'm so jelly

John McDonald

:D

Bogdan Marginean

I don't know of anyone IRL who can do something more complicated than a hello world in C++

:(

ToddersLegrande

My board game friends are unreliable. I need to find some new ones

Bogdan Marginean

4:08 PM

and seeing all of my colleagues not caring about what they're learning, always thinking that they'll win the big bucks

it's possible I won't be making lots of friends anytime soon

ToddersLegrande

@BogdanMarginean I have a couple friends from high school who got into different areas of engineering and both dabbled in programming. They get what I do so it works for us. Even if I'm pretty clueless about enginnering xD

Bogdan Marginean

one of them actually told me that CS is like a backup plan for her

she doesn't like it at all, but she does it anyway

what the hell!

plumbing is a backup plan, not freaking CS

John McDonald

heh, yeah. It's largely friends of friends and such. We used to have board game nights whenever, and it was hard to get at least 3, but no more than 5 or 6 because you'd need to invite a max of 6 people, and inevitably, some of those 6 would be busy or not be able to come at the last minute.

Bogdan Marginean

@ToddersLegrande most of my HS friends went in different places

only a couple do CS now

ToddersLegrande

One of the only people I still talk to from high school is out in California

Bogdan Marginean

4:11 PM

it would've been three of them if the latter decided to sell his iPhone and pay the semester's fees

now he's a plumber-in-the-making :(

John McDonald

Now we have organized, large gatherings every 2 weeks. We plan to have 2 games running, so we can invite like 10 people no problem. If we get 5 or less, we play together. If we have 6+, we play separate games. It works great

Bogdan Marginean

it's a pity because he was really clever

but a plumber with an iPhone is better than an iPhone-less plumber I guess

ToddersLegrande

@JohnMcDonald I have like... 3 friends who I like to play games with which is perfect. But then when you get everyone's significant other involved (which happens more often than not sadly) you get 6-7 people and theres like no games to play

At least nothing I want to play

We managed with 5 the other night

John McDonald

Split up! Run 2 tables!

ToddersLegrande

more than that would have been a disaster I think

John McDonald

4:13 PM

I agree. Most of the games I like play best with 2-4

ToddersLegrande

I don't know if anyone owns two tables lol

John McDonald

:(

ToddersLegrande

We had a good time with Carcassonne the other night.

I explained the rules as "Just place tiles, drink, and have fun"

John McDonald

lol, nice

Watch you be the only farmer. Pwned

We've had some epic farmer battles in our games

An other pretty fun one for groups of 5+ is The Resistance, or even better, get it's successor The Resistance:Avalon

Ever played Werewolf? Or watch TableTop on YouTube?

Code Assassin

Anyone here good with Unity(specifically a Character Motor)? One of my characters jumps are pretty jittery and I don't know why...

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

4:26 PM

@ToddersLegrande War!

Bogdan Marginean

@CodeAssassin what script are you using?

Code Assassin

Javascript...

Bogdan Marginean

no no, what script for the motor

Code Assassin

pastebin.com/pJZJwefA

Bogdan Marginean

e.g. I'm using the default first person controller script in my game

Code Assassin

4:33 PM

Ohhh

I guess it would be default

Bogdan Marginean

are you sure it's the jump that's jittery and not the framerate?

Code Assassin

Hmm.... I'm pretty sure it's the jump. I have another character in the scene as well and when he jumps it's smooth. When this player jumps it isn't.

Bogdan Marginean

can you diff the two scripts and see what the first has that the 2nd doesn't?

Code Assassin

Doing it right now.

Okay I just copy pasted and adjusted values accordingly and It works much smoother now... It's probably just the lack of in air control :\

Bogdan Marginean

:D

Code Assassin

4:43 PM

Lol should probably go add that now :D Thanks man

Bogdan Marginean

np though I didn't do much

just suggested you take what's working from the 2nd script and add it to the first

man I love my laptop so much <3

saved my ass twice when my desktop failed

still going strong, using it now

Code Assassin

I only have one comp(actually 2 I have an old 2006 Macbook).

Bogdan Marginean

should add an SSD to my laptop, would deserve the upgrade

@CodeAssassin wish I had a macbook :(

Code Assassin

@BogdanMarginean Haha I had a good run with it. I could've scrapped it when the HD failed - but I saved my birthday money and got a new one.

Bogdan Marginean

I gave a hackintosh a spin a while back

Code Assassin

4:47 PM

Oh - did it work?

Bogdan Marginean

I'd probably stick to Xubuntu, but I'd love to cover the OS X and iOS fields

@CodeAssassin yeah, most of it - snow leopard

it was running on the laptop too, on a VM

Code Assassin

VM's scare me. Lol - I'm afraid I'm going to mess up my HD if I even touch one

:P

Bogdan Marginean

why's that?

VMs are godsent in a lot of cases when you don't want to mess up your HD

or should I say, main OS

I'm never afraid I can mess something up inside a VM

I can always rollback

linux installations are like, perfect for VMs

because apparently, even pressing a "Next" button too slow in a wizard can mess up things

Gajoo

is it only me or do you also think google is failing to find the shortest path?

Bogdan Marginean

do you take one-way roads into consideration?

Gajoo

4:57 PM

I mean why didn't it take 20th street?

Bogdan Marginean

is the 20th street two-way?

actually nvm

I saw that arrow now

Gajoo

and that's almost the route I pass through once a week.

Bogdan Marginean

it's a conspiracy to make drivers spend more on gas

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