Discussion for Evolution of "Hello World"

Quincunx

07:05

This is going to get a lot of answers.... I'm not sure if this challenge type is that interesting. And besides, what are people voting for? Why does my answer have +3, while most have +-0? What are we going to do when someone messes up in their answer and fixing the mistake invalidates others?

Calvin's Hobbies

About the +3 I suppose people wouldn't have expected befunge. The edits can cause problems as you say, and I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done once there are more answers. The chain can go on though, even if it is imperfect.

Do you need to ba a mod to make a question protected? I wan't to prevent sock puppets just in case.

Quincunx

No, but I could protect it for you, just need a lot of rep

Would protecting be a good thing here?

Hmm, would this type of problem be much better suited to a chatroom?

@Calvin'sHobbies

I'll go ahead and protect it; if someone wants it reversed, they can call in a mod/contact me later/ (I think other users with protection abilities can unprotect too). I'm going to bed really soon.

Wait nvm

I can't protect???

Calvin's Hobbies

If it's protected then people can't just make new accounts to keep answering it. That would be pretty pointless but is a potential issue. (This was just a trial q so I'm not too concerned what happens to it.)

Quincunx

OH:

Any question, even a deleted question, can be protected and unprotected, subject to the following restrictions:

The question must be at least a day old

Calvin's Hobbies

Ah, ok

Feeds

07:27

Quincunx has added Calvin's Hobbies to the list of this room's owners.

Calvin's Hobbies

Question for everyone : Do you think this challenge would have worked better if it were something like

Write a program that outputs a famous quote or phrase such as "keep calm and carry on", such that the ASCII sum of your answer is the ASCII sum of the last answer plus 1

?

Quincunx

Wow, that might be better

Calvin's Hobbies

Question for everyone : Do you think this kind of incremental-answer challenge is even feasible?

Mark Gabriel

08:10

hi guys. does the javascript console count as stdout?

Calvin's Hobbies

@MarkGabriel That's fine, since js doesn't really have stdout. Alert would also be ok

Mark Gabriel

new answer posted. please tell me if it doesn't count. haha.

Beta Decay

@MarkGabriel Why'd you delete your answer?

Calvin's Hobbies

@BetaDecay It was invalid

Beta Decay

Does that mean mine is too?

Mark Gabriel

08:22

i technically didn't print it, the console just returns a string

Calvin's Hobbies

@BetaDecay Yes, but you can edit it to fit answer 10 (if possible)

Beta Decay

Ahh okay

You should come up with a tag for this kind of challenge. Presumably this won't be the last..

Calvin's Hobbies

08:48

I do want to try more. In fact I've wanted to do a problem like this (where there is a linear stream of answers, not the edit distance specifically) for months.

@BetaDecay A tag could be something boring like [incremental-answers] or a bit more fun like [domino-coding].

Sp3000

I'd vote for domino coding :P

Beta Decay

09:04

@Calvin'sHobbies Sticking with the evolution theme, something like [blind-watchmaker] could be possible.

Calvin's Hobbies

09:32

@BetaDecay Maybe, but things aren't necessarily evolving :P

Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies It can happen ;)

But domino coding sounds like it would fit

Optimizer

09:54

@Calvin'sHobbies @BetaDecay Maybe we can make a scoring condition around that too. Like who ever answers an answer which creates a cycle gets less score (or a penalty)

@Calvin'sHobbies The only problem that I am seeing in these types of questions is that answers would get less votes

like if an answer in a normal type of event was supposed to get 20+ up votes, in this , it will get much less as people tend to sort answers based on time rather votes in these questions

so defs a popularity contest is not possible.

Sp3000

:/ we got Javascript twice

Calvin's Hobbies

@Sp3000 I only see js at 18 (besides the deleted 11).

Sp3000

Oh, 11 was deleted? Need to refresh my page

(I thought SE auto-updated but I guess not for deleted answers)

Beta Decay

@Optimizer Yes, I like that. The answers would evolve into complete obfuscation.

Maybe your score could be the difference from the original answer - the difference from the prevuous answer...

Calvin's Hobbies

@Optimizer Penalties for similarities could have been part of this questions scoring, but I do want to say that my vision of this challenge type doesn't specifically involve this text replacement stuff.

It could be any question that is sequentially answered where each answer is influenced by the last, and gets more and more difficult.

(This problem is starting to get difficult since we're running out of languages...kinda.)

Optimizer

10:10

unique languages is a bit downside for the question

Calvin's Hobbies

True

Optimizer

as it limits the total number of answers

Beta Decay

Yeah... We've still got the large number of BASIC dialects though

And the esoteric languages

Optimizer

as of now. no one might be able to answer for a second time

Beta Decay

Yeah... Is that such a problem though?

Calvin's Hobbies

10:13

Haha, until then it is a pop con by the tiebreaker rules.

Pimgd

=/ I had actionscript lined up but I took too long messing about with sign up and linking my account

Calvin's Hobbies

@Pimgd Wait around and you might have another chance :)

Stacey

@Pimgd there are tons of languages out there still

Pimgd

=D All I need is "Hello World!"

3

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 23 - APL "Hello world!" Note there's a leading space. Distance: 7

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies So now to my second issue which I commented above too

Pimgd

10:17

This one prints the wrong result

Optimizer

this question is not fit to be a pop con

grc

Hmm... Should I build up towards a C solution or just make it hard for the next person?

Beta Decay

Would say count at this point? That'd only have a distance of two from the last... I think

Optimizer

@grc - C - No way. int main() {}

Beta Decay

@optimizer Some compilers don't need that

Optimizer

10:18

@Calvin'sHobbies - Since answers are sorted by oldest instead of votes, pop con won't workout

grc

@Optimizer I mean include 'main' or something in a different language to work closer to a C solution

Calvin's Hobbies

@Pimgd Seems alright to me (try it at repl.it/languages/APL).

Oh, its just the W

Pimgd

Yeah just the W

but I've seen you guys do wacky stuff before

Beta Decay

@grc Is that setting yourself of someone else up?

Pimgd

where stuff like whitespace and capitalization matters

Optimizer

10:20

@grc I see.

grc

@BetaDecay Either, but it would probably take a few steps

Optimizer

@grc anyways you will have to wait 8 hrs now :P

Beta Decay

@grc It'd be better to do that when the question goes quiet... Eight hours is a long time

:P

grc

Ah I didn't see the 8hr thing :(

Beta Decay

Yeah... Nearly caught me out too

Calvin's Hobbies

10:23

@Optimizer I know a pop-con is not ideal here, though I don't want to change that now. I honestly thought 8 hours was too short, I almost made it 24.

Pimgd

ooh 25

grc

I hope no one steals my language before then

Pimgd

I just realized that most languages I know won't work because they need wrapper code like a main or a class

Beta Decay

Most of the new entries seem to be following the same pattern - outputCommand "Hello World!". I hope it breaks out of that pattern...

grc

26 is nice

Pimgd

10:25

26 adds a bigger output command... gonna take multiple answers to get rid of it

Calvin's Hobbies

@Quincunx What do you think now? :P The answers are simple, but they're fun to watch.

Beta Decay

@Pimgd I dare you to try and get Java in there :D

Lilac

I was just about to put in a TI-BASIC answer of disp "Hello World!". Ah well...

Pimgd

@Lilac Post it

current #26 is illegal

Lilac

posted

Calvin's Hobbies

10:30

We've been pretty good at policing this. Does anyone know if there are any breaks in the chain, so to speak?

Beta Decay

Nope. I've commented if I've seen if there any suspicious ones but they all seem to be acceptable so far.

Pimgd

editted my answer to be AS2

Cause I know AS2 works on the timeline

All AS3 programming I've done uses a document class

Lilac

AS3 works on the timeline too I think

Let me check real quick

Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies Aren't you tired? It must be the middle of the night for you...

Calvin's Hobbies

I'm often up late but I am heading to bed soon.

Pimgd

10:34

0

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 26 - J ]display=:'Hello World!' Distance = 5

Lilac

J answer is a bit late

Pimgd

super late =D

Lilac

guy must have forgotten to refresh

well he edited it

nice

Pimgd

that works?

...

Lilac

I don't have a J compiler on hand

Pimgd

10:35

J is ... weird.

grc

the J one is just the same as 'Hello World!'

J just prints back what you give it

Pimgd

the ] in there though

ah but he's got a distance of 5

not 6

uh...

When you have a list of 100 languages eventually

how do you check if yours is in there?

Beta Decay

Ctrl+F

Pimgd

Even although comments might contain the words

okay

Beta Decay

It may be harder for languages such as F

You'd get all the capital Fs on the page coming up...

Pimgd

10:44

search for ". F" instead

Lilac

God, Flash takes ages to load up. Anyway, I've confirmed trace('Hello World!'); works just as fine in AS3 in the timeline as AS2.

Pimgd

... oh.

. J doesn't match "28. J"

so yeah I guess you're fkced in that case

Beta Decay

Try " J "

Pimgd

@Lilac it's trace("Hello World!")

Beta Decay

Because " J" would match Javascript...

Pimgd

10:45

@BetaDecay no hits for that either

<li><a href="http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/40410/21682">J</a></li>

Beta Decay

Really? Strange...

Pimgd

there's no characters but new lines around it

Beta Decay

@Pimgd [J](http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/40410/21682)

grc

Ctrl-F should have regex support

Lilac

Strangely, it doesn't even match 28 on my computer

Pimgd

10:47

@BetaDecay ahhh you edit the question, then search

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies - You can change the time at least.

and you have a valid reason that you did not anticipate this good response

Beta Decay

@grc Here

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies reducing to 4 hours should be fine

Pimgd

... would SQL be valid?

Lilac

I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be.

Beta Decay

10:51

It's been used on PPCG before.. So yeah

Pimgd

I'll have to wait for some time first though

=D answer 29

powershell... what?

grc

@BetaDecay I tried a few and they didn't work

Beta Decay

@pimgd It uses the same trick as with my answer: comments out stuff and just returns the string

grc

it's nice to see lots of new users posting answers

Pimgd

People should start using their leftovers to add a commented main()

then verbose languages might break through =D

Lilac

10:58

This language is shockingly appropriate:

esolangs.org/wiki/Hello%2B%2B

Beta Decay

What do you do after a C and C++ answer have been though? It's a long step to C# and Java from that...

Pimgd

ermh

look at C's roots A/B

and maybe D

grc

+100 to anyone who can get a BF solution in

Beta Decay

What the hell's happened to the Wikipedia page for D? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)

Lilac

Non-mobile looks fine

D (programming language)

The D programming language is an object-oriented, imperative, multi-paradigm system programming language created by Walter Bright of Digital Mars. Though it originated as a re-engineering of C++, D is a distinct language, having redesigned some core C++ features while also taking inspiration from other languages, notably Java, Python, Ruby, C#, and Eiffel. D's design goals attempt to combine the performance and safety of compiled languages with the expressive power of modern dynamic languages. Idiomatic D code is commonly as fast as equivalent C++ code, while being shorter and memory-safe. Type...

Beta Decay

11:02

Oh.. Okay then

Pimgd

wait, you need to import stdio for c, right?

yeaaaah that's not happening

Beta Decay

Not with gcc. It throws a warning but the program's still valid

Pimgd

plus people seem to be focused on removing characters

Beta Decay

Eventually HQ9+ will get in with a short enough program...

Pimgd

not likely...

Hello World!

needs to be reduced to H, right?

so someone first needs to mangle Hello World! to less than Hello World!

that's... pretty hard.

Lilac

11:08

Hello plus plus: Hello W

HQ9+: H

Pimgd

Oh shi-

Lilac

esolangs.org/wiki/Hello%2B%2B

GENIUS

Pimgd

esolangs.org/wiki/KanjiCode

Lilac

>no compiler

Beta Decay

Of course you could add a load of code bloat... H&&&&&&&

Pimgd

11:09

@Lilac you need a compiler?

Lilac

didn't read it through

I thought there wasn't any compilers or intepreters

my mistake

Pimgd

ah well the idea is I found some random language that takes "Hello World!" and prints Hello World!

you can get to Hello++ from there =D

and then we'll be stuck at H forever

4

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 26 - TI-BASIC Disp "HELLO WORLD!" Distance: 4 from answer 25

Oh dear. The stack has been corrupted.

Beta Decay

Haha HQ9+ is finally good for something :)

Lilac

Hmm? What happened?

oh you mean my answer was edited

okay

Beta Decay

Doesn't the capital D increase the distance?

Pimgd

11:13

erm, guys?

Beta Decay

Yeah?

Pimgd

"HELLO WORLD"?

Lilac

Ahh yeah, it does. I'll edit it up to 5

Pimgd

all caps?

many characters changed?

Beta Decay

Oh crap yeah. That throws it out completely

Pimgd

11:14

and then the stack came toppling down

Beta Decay

The capital letters aren't necessary... Why did he edit it to be like that?

Pimgd

so now what

Lilac

Dunno what timtech is doing to my answer

Pimgd

they're not?

Lilac

I changed it back

Pimgd

11:15

you have a ti calculator to verify your answer?

Lilac

Yes.

Pimgd

ah I think I had one too

the issue being that... it doesn't have lower case

Lilac

Ahh, it's to do with the calculator type

The one I've got has lowercase letters

Beta Decay

Yeah he probably has an older one

Not the nspire

Lilac

yeah makes sense

Pimgd

11:16

hurray, we're saved

Lilac

The stack is saved

Beta Decay

They should make a film out of that

Pimgd

it'd be a short film though?

Timtech

They need a tag for evolution :o

Anyway cya

Lilac

code-mutation maybe

Timtech

11:18

@Pimgd TI-BASIC 83/84/+/SE requires that

Beta Decay

@Lilac Calvin'sHobbies came up with domino-coding

Pimgd

"Ahhh the dominos are falling"

I like it

Lilac

yeah domino-coding is better

more visceral

I don't know what visceral actually means

Pimgd

visceral = the-squishy-parts-of-you-that-are-inside-you-ish

Lilac

yeah, domino-coding is more squishy

Beta Decay

11:21

2 hours ago, by Calvin's Hobbies

@BetaDecay A tag could be something boring like [incremental-answers] or a bit more fun like [domino-coding].

2 hours ago, by Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies Sticking with the evolution theme, something like [blind-watchmaker] could be possible.

Pimgd

> relating to the viscera.
> "the visceral nervous system"

> In anatomy, a viscus /ˈvɪskəs/ is an internal organ, and viscera is the plural form

so sayeth Wikipedia

Lilac

huh not sure why I thought of that word then lol

I was just thinking, "hmm... what word describes the tag domino-coding?"

and somehow 'visceral' popped up

Pimgd

pizza programming.

Lilac

...

Pimgd

that should totally be a thing

except I'd eat my code

Lilac

11:25

somehow pizza programming makes me think of a code composed of eight segments

and you can eat each part seperately, and the rest of the pizza is still delicious

i.e. the code still works

Pimgd

And layers!

Lilac

sponge-cake-programming

Pimgd

yeah but each layer is different

Lilac

ahh okay, that makes sense

I've never actually made a proper pizza before

Beta Decay

gobstopper-programming

Pimgd

11:26

there's is a stable bread as the base

and then tomato sauce

and cheeeese

and

Beta Decay

Meat

Pimgd

I'm hungry now

Hmmm meaty pizza

Lilac

I know... but what I really want to do some time is, make a proper one. In a wood fired oven and everything

hmm i wonder if that could be a programming challenge

kolgormorov-complexity about decorating a pizza

Beta Decay

Or maybe some kind of code-challenge

Pimgd

sadly that doesn't net us real pizza though

grc

11:29

esolangs.org/wiki/Chef

Beta Decay

How do you even program in Chef? It's like Shakespeare..

Lilac

Now I'm thinking of a Chef-Shakespeare hybrid

Beta Decay

Hmm... That's be interesting

Pimgd

I don't understand Chef

Lilac

Hamlet:

"Put Chocolate into the Mixing Bowl!"

Pimgd

11:31

It says Hello World once

and that's it

yet I'd expect that to be a comment

Beta Decay

I don't think anyone understands Chef

Lilac

It also makes Hello World cake with chocolate sauce.

Pimgd

ohhhh!

Lilac

The italics is an attempt to make you feel hungry.

Pimgd

no

I still don't get it

yeah I do now

the ingredients are variables with values

so when you put an ingredient into a bowl you just add it to a buffer of sorts

grc

11:33

I think ingredients are numerical constants, and mixing bowls/baking dishes are like stacks

Pimgd

dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef_hello.html

grc

and the verbs are methods

Beta Decay

How do you translate that to ASCII output though?

Pimgd

Hello World Souffle.

This recipe prints the immortal words "Hello world!", in a basically brute force way. It also makes a lot of food for one person.

Ingredients.
72 g haricot beans
101 eggs
108 g lard
111 cups oil
32 zucchinis
119 ml water
114 g red salmon
100 g dijon mustard
33 potatoes

Method.
Put potatoes into the mixing bowl. Put dijon mustard into the mixing bowl. Put lard into the mixing bowl. Put red salmon into the mixing bowl. Put oil into the mixing bowl. Put water into the mixing bowl. Put zucchinis into the mixing bowl. Put oil into the mixing bowl. Put lard into the mixing…

put potatoes

= push 33

Lilac

101 eggs gg

Pimgd

11:34

so it's push 33, push 100, push 108, push 114, 111, 119, 32, 111, 108, 108, 101, 72...

then liquefy? (wat)

and pour

which obviously makes things come back out in reverse

Lilac

An interesting popularity-contest might be to take a recipe off the internet and translate it reasonably faithfully into Chef code that prints out the title of the recipe.

Beta Decay

Oh, I see haricot beans = '\x72'...

Pimgd

then you get 72 101 108 108 111 32 119 111 114 108 100 33

which translates to Hello world!

Beta Decay

Clever...

There seems to be no clear documentation though...

grc

dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html

Pimgd

11:37

this recipe names the program... then your variable definitions...

Lilac

1

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 30 - K /#]trac "Hello World!" Distance: 7 from Answer 29 I think this works, an interpreter is here (Kona). / begins a one-line comment in K. I've cleaned up some of the #]trace=:( mess.

Beta Decay

Ohh nice

There seems to be a lot of clean up going on.

Pimgd

shame that they're cleaning up all the characters

we'll never get C in there

Beta Decay

Yeah. It seems to be a cycle of near original to off a bit to near original again.

There needs to be more creativity

Pimgd

It's an evil plot designed by the HQ9+ ers

they wanna reduce it to H and make it impossible to answer

Beta Decay

11:42

Haha. I'm sure people will just invent a language to get around that, regardless of the standard loopholes :)

Pimgd

well aslong as it contains Hello World! we're safe

Beta Decay

Haha yeah. Let's hope no one is douchy enough to screw it all up for us

Pimgd

#31

0

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 31 - Visual FoxPro *#]trac ? "Hello World!" Distance: 3 from Answer 30 Not tested of course, but * begins a comment and ? "String" prints String.

Martin Büttner

domino coding? that's creepy... while tinkering with source-layout ideas, I just contemplated something based on domino tiles...

Beta Decay

11:58

@MartinBüttner Haha so do you think domino-coding is a valid tag for this kind of challenge?

Martin Büttner

yeah, although I don't personally think this kind of challenge is a good fit for PPCG if the tasks get any more complicated than printing hello world

Beta Decay

Yeah. It does seem quite higgledy-piggledy.

Doorknob

If we're making this a new tag, all I can say is don't let this go the way code-trolling did. It looks like it has potential, but we don't want to get too excited and ruin it. (It feels necessary to mention this because this is another one of those types of challenges where you can just stick any problem into the [domino-coding] machine and get a decent question, but "Domino coding: XXX!" will get progressively more and more boring as they're posted.)

Beta Decay

12:12

Answer 32:

0

A: Evolution of "Hello World!" (testing new type of challenge)

Answer 32 - VBA a = "*#]trac": ? "Hello World!" Distance: 5 from Answer 31 Runs from the immediate window.

Pimgd

distance ... 8

Pimgd

12:31

Hurray, the stack is fixed again

grc

I've worked out a path to a valid C solution :D

Pimgd

oooh

Well we do seem to pick up more and more characters

there's a pending edit for the question list

grc

"one answer per 8 hour period" -> does this mean we can post again 8 hours after the question was posted?

Beta Decay

@grc No, after your answer was posted

Pimgd

so how do you plan to get to C?

Or is that a secret

grc

12:46

Falcon -> Groovy -> F# -> swift -> C

and then dart & rust

and maybe onto Java?

E could slot in there as well

Sp3000

13:51

Here's one way to get us stuck if we can make it: esolangs.org/wiki/Hello

Oh needs an exclamation mark, damn. Surely there's one out there...

Pimgd

ooh... what does HQ9+ print?

hah, it prints the wrong hello world

we're saved from impending doom

Sp3000

esolangs.org/wiki/Huby

Nope here's one that works

Kevin Brown

I'm glad to see a new type of challenge being tested out

Looks interesting

Transcript for

Discussion for Evolution of "Hello Wo…