The Factory Floor

Otkin

00:00

what are definitions of advantages and disadvantages?

Tortliena

I'll give an example : in the 60s there was the baby boom in France (and I bet other countries). What should we do with so many new people, with people still living in slums around Paris? The government decided to build some prefab flats, ones that doesn't last long but is quick to build.

Was it good? Probably yes, it's better than having people with no homes; The advantage of being able to build quick and relatively cheap outweighed the disadvantages : ugliness, no real city planning (gotta build fast!)...

Is it good now? Probably no, the newly created cities are becoming old and unsanitary. People there don't find work because there's no infrastructure for that (transport, etc.)

In other words, what can you gain and lose from an action, in the context you're given?

Otkin

These are not definitions

Tortliena

And at which point an action which is interesting turns out very bad, and vice-versa (if it happens). That's the basics of making thoughtful choices. It doesn't tell which choice you should make in the end, but you know what you're getting if you choose one or the other.

I'll give you strict definitions then...

Advantage : What you gain

Disadvantage : What you lose

Vogon Poet

@Otkin The question of advantages or disadvantages, or what works or what does not work isn't part of this problem. In the end, it worked. The story begins there. There is no government forming talk in the story at all.

This problem is better described as a matter of appropriate and inappropriate titles. It's about avoiding cultural apropriation.

Otkin

@VogonPoet You are wrong. Your fictional world does not exist independently of you. You still need to create the government.

You, the author

Vogon Poet

00:11

Americans bowing to a King? May come off badly. Imperial subjects protesting a president? Awkward.

I create the world, I agree.

This is one tool I use for that.

Otkin

The entire world is an artificial system

Vogon Poet

All worlds are.

Otkin

its past, present, and future

it has no life of its own

characters cannot make decisions on their own

you and only you make decisions

Vogon Poet

But worlds need to stay out of the story. They are the paint on the wall. Mine has a very bright color and is tough to keep in the background. So I came here.

There are no decisions being made.

Otkin

wrong again

Vogon Poet

00:13

regarding governance

I am not wrong about my story LOL

Otkin

your world must be consistent with the story, and story must be consistent with the world

Vogon Poet

Yes, we are saying the same thing

Tortliena

Wait!

Contradiction seen

Vogon Poet

And?

Otkin

contradiction where?

Vogon Poet

00:14

The new edit should completely resolve the confusion BTW

Otkin

I have only 30 min left before I have to go

Vogon Poet

I am already late

So is @Tortliena

Tortliena

You say that worlds need to stay out of the story and yet you tell that you need to keep the world consistent with the story (or at least you agree with Otkin). But... You can't really keep the story out of the world if they're interwoven right?

Interwoven in consistency

Vogon Poet

You do know this is not the philosophy.se right?

Tortliena

I think you're facing an issue with that, that's why I raise it :)

Vogon Poet

00:17

That was a fallacy by the way @Tortliena. There is no rule that writers have to make sure their worlds and their stories are NOT consistent.

Tortliena

your world must be consistent with the story

Vogon Poet

You can not keep a crown off the King of England, but the crown is not the story. The crown is "world building" and the King is the story. Unfortunately, they are consistent :(

This happens occasionally in stories

Otkin

@VogonPoet With the new edit, I would suggest looking at Russia

Vogon Poet

That's at least two novels away @Otkin.

Otkin

its culture is a mix of Eastern and Western ideas

Vogon Poet

00:19

I was joking. Yes, I would like to look more closely at the Tsarist regimes

As an option.

Otkin

its not collectivistic as Chinese culture, but its not individualistic as Western cultures

it praises filial pity, but children still can make their own decisions and go against parents

Vogon Poet

Maybe it's as simple as translating those titles into English analogues

Otkin

it insists on discussing matters and achieving consensus but it does not really like democracy

@VogonPoet You need to think about the philosophy of your society and its culture

the government and its institutions will follow naturally from there

e.g., if you have the Mandate of Heaven you have the Emperor

Vogon Poet

This is a tempting conversation, however, again the function of the government is established and outside my problem here. Those philosophies have been beat up well - and may get more beating. My current challeng is avoiding disrespectful or inconsistent titles, really

Otkin

you would not be asking these questions if your government were established

you are still in the process of creating your world system

it does not matter that your government was established in the past of your world

Vogon Poet

00:24

That is not true. I would not be asking these questions if I were a political scientist and understood all the nuanced functions of "senator" and "minister" and "earl."

Otkin

as the author you are outside of time\

what is your question? what are the correct titles?

Vogon Poet

The functions of the government are set in stone. The laws are written. I am only down to describing this odd little animal I made.

Otkin

your question does not contain the description of the functions or laws

The problem:
A simple republic structure ignores the Chinese and the British heritage. An empirical monarchy with executive ministers ignores the heritage of constitutional Republics and monarchies. A sort of government stew seems to be needed, I'm trying to concoct it with the least amount of inadvertent cultural appropriation.

Vogon Poet

In the fewest pages possible, that is.

Otkin

what are you trying to ask?

Vogon Poet

00:28

I could define all new titles, I would need a second book. This also squarely slaps their decision to "never forget" in the face.

In a word, titles

Otkin

titles are outside the scope of the WB.SE

Vogon Poet

I think that's not true, sorry. How do you figure that?

Otkin

it is also impossible to decide on titles without knowing the structure of your government and its systems

titles are basically naming conventions

unless you are asking about the system of titles, but that requires information about your system of government and administration

Vogon Poet

It may seem that way. I see the point: A society that does not hold elections can't have a President... but they can. Can a King be elected? I don't actually know that.

Otkin

plus historical conventions, land policies, laws, etc.

yes, a king can be elected

Vogon Poet

00:31

So, then the function really doesn;t matter. It comes back to a question of cultural appropriation

Otkin

it seems to me that you are more interested in creating a system of governance rather than titles

Vogon Poet

What give you this idea? I have been fairly plain all through this?

Tortliena

Choosing simply a title over another one is basically opinion-based. Moreover and indeed, we can't really help you choose a title (or any word) for you; You might say "hey this answer has received a lot of upvotes", but it might just not fit what you want, personally as an author that knows what they're writing.

Vogon Poet

Not one time have I asked anything about what is "right" or "wrong" for a government to do

Tortliena

However, I'm not sure I understand something : if you're asking about the titles that people bear, then, why is the name of the government not really important?

I mean, and as you implied with your king vs democracy, they're often related, real-world wise.

Otkin

00:33

because you can have mayor in any system

but it is hardly possible to have a duke, a prince, or a marquis in a democracy

Vogon Poet

Because at no point in the story does anyone need to say, "All hail the United Federation of Royal Democratic Xing!" It just never gets said.

Tortliena

But it's less likely to have dukes in a democracy ^^

Otkin

so, the type of regime is more important than the name of the government

Vogon Poet

Why not? I am completely ignorant on that.

Anyway, RE: "we can't help you choose any word." I have done it many times and seen it done many times here.

@Otkin Just how they are addressed - respectful of heritage

Tortliena

It's not because people have done this that it's right or it's the good thing they've done ^^

Otkin

00:36

@VogonPoet Titles do not exist in vacuum

Tortliena

(Though it's an hint it was accepted, sure)

Otkin

they exist within specific systems

democracy cannot have dukes or princes because it is not monarchy or aristocracy

Vogon Poet

But there is no rule making "choosing well-fitting language" off topic. We have a person now asking how to make his Ogre species language not use the letter R

It's never been a problem

Otkin

dukes and princes are features of monarchy/aristocracy

Vogon Poet

Languages, terminology, these are worlds

@Otkin, sure, but do theri roles translate? I have no idea

Otkin

00:38

translate where?

Vogon Poet

Into say a democracy. Britain still has them

Otkin

Britain is not a democracy, though

Vogon Poet

Sorry, I have to run. Thanks for your time. Consider my edit please.

Otkin

it is a constitutional monarchy

Vogon Poet

Yes, this is a strange stew. My problem is political science.

Otkin

00:40

Take my advice. Build your system and ask if it is feasible. It would be a better question

I have to go, too. I still think that this question needs more clarity.

Worldbuilding Meta

06:04

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Q: On bringing closed questions with answers on topic?

If an off topic gets an answer before closing, logic suggests that whatever answers may have been submitted must be off topic as well. The possibility of making a post that has value to the community, which responded to a topic not suited to WB:SE is a paradox. My premise is simple: A post that i...

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