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22:00
The strategy was put forward by the British as strategic bombing to demoralize and eliminate production centers. At the time, it was thought to be a viable and effective strategy.
@FailusMaximus Melting children in their HOMES? Nope, it was cruel and immoral, done by a bunch of pansies who waited until things went to shit before acting
Judging history after the fact is useless and wrong. Judge history based on what was known at the time of the decision.
@Halfthawed Not knowing the law doesn't make one exempt from it, Exterminate!
yeah, Meph, if civilization ever collapses, you're fucked mate
They didn't violate any laws, technically. Because, you know, there weren't any of those kinds of laws at the time.
I'm not saying it was a good thing, I'm saying that judging this based on modern standards and post facto information isn't going to be productive.
22:02
@Halfthawed Certain laws transcend time (Don't melt innocent children is one of them)
Okay. What if you have to choose between the death of one child and the death of five?
What if you have to chose beneath the death of your child and the death of someone you've never met?
@Halfthawed One child dies
my god Meph, you really have no idea
I mean, there are things in history I can't understand
@FailusMaximus It's still their fault that decision had to be made
No. That's wrong.
22:03
I can't understand people beating the land surveyer to death in 18th century because they thought he was cursing their fields
It's the fault of the one's who attacked them, @Mephistopheles. Blaming one side for a war they didn't start is a fallacy.
I can't understand how people could go to executions for entertainment and take their kids with them
@FailusMaximus In part, that was required by law to instill fear.
but I still can bend my mind enough to at least understand some decisions in WW2, because that was a war of hatred
depends on where Halfthawed
totally not everywhere
@Halfthawed "UwU, let's drag a bunch of losing countries through the mud, as if we didn't wanted it at all"
22:05
True. Mob mentality in authoritarian regimes is fascinating.
If I ever get a time machine, those peace conferences will be the first target
@Mephistopheles Do you understand how war works? It's not over until one side surrenders. Take the Bismark, for instance.
I mean I can understand fanaticism of Japanese soldier, who does something like kamikaze, but I can't understand civilians killing themselves and their own families to avoid surrendering to enemy.
The British destroyer pounded it until the ship's metal was red hot and boiling all the water it was in contact with, and they couldn't stop because the Bismark never surrendered and raised a white flag.
those are things that go beyond me
22:07
It's not pretty or nice. It's war.
@Halfthawed Romania downright bullied Hungary, when it was down in the mud.
Then they are cruel for doing so, if Hungary surrendered.
that isn't that hard to understand
@Halfthawed They did, Romania was already a massive winner, which made it even worse
Then they are cruel, I'll readily admit that. I'm not defending murdering people.
22:10
Hungaria before WW1 were even bigger dicks to everyone around them than Austria
The incident you speak happened during WWI, not WWII, and the Allies, incidentally, were furious at Romania for doing that.
like kind of soft version of "you're inferior breed of humans"
and yeah, I'm talking beginning of 20th century
Harry Hill Bandholtz (December 18, 1864 – May 11, 1925) was a United States Army career officer who served for more than a decade in the Philippines. He was a Major General during World War I, and the US representative of the Inter-Allied Military Mission in Hungary in 1919. == Early life == Bandholtz was born in Constantine, Michigan on December 18, 1864. He was the youngest of two children. His father, Christian Johan Bandholtz, was an emigrant from Schleswig-Holstein and earned his living as a harness maker. Elizabeth Hill, his mother, was a milliner. Bandholtz attended local schools a...
Okay, this guy was based af
my Slovak ancestors can tell how much of dicks were Hungarians back then
and in that time, people were more barbaric in war, especially against people who were arrogant oppressive dicks to them in past
I mean, even today, people have such simplifying views
where they can't tell a person from collective
That's because it's a lot easier to view people as a collective than individuals.
Especially when it comes to hatred
22:16
hatred isn't reasonable thing
especially if it's justified hatred
Talk to a guy on the street for fifteen minutes, and you might dislike the person, but rarely will you hate him. Say the person belong to the wrong ethnic group or thinks the wrong things, and it's a lot easier.
Exactly. Part of the ease of hatred is the irrationality of it.
for most people when nazis killed your whole family, children, loved one, parents... nobody's going to convince you that that 14 y. o. boy from hitlerjungend doesn't deserve being beaten to death
hey my country did something like that after WW2
@FailusMaximus Then I'll just simply say to them, "if you strike him down now, he'll become more powerful than they could imagine".
he'll punch you unconcious and then will keep beating you till his death
@FailusMaximus Who?
22:19
this quote might work in movie, but in IRL, it fails most of the of time... actually any reasoning fails almost always then
Czechoslovakia (well now Czech republic)
tbh, at significant fraction (but definitely not majority) of it was done by people who used to collab with nazis and now were trying their best to look like they're anti nazi
@FailusMaximus That is because they're Untermensch, they're incapable of realizing the only way to break the cycle of hatred (an irrational response) is with an equally irrational love/mercy
well, 7 billion people are Untermensch then
@Mephistopheles I've a more cynical view on that
most people say I wouldn't harm someone in revenge just because he belongs to the same group as those who killed my family
hell I would want to say it
but we never know until we have those shoes on
@Halfthawed I'm not saying balls to the walls clown world, just some healthy dose of mercy
22:22
we never know if we're as great people as we think ourselves
after WW2 was over, 3 000 000 germans were kicked out of Czechoslovakia
this had around 15-25 k victims, of which at least few thousands were murdered, and most were killed by mistreatment (such as forced marches without enough food and water)
some were even treated same way as in concentration (but not extermination) camps for a month or two
some were litterally killed with bullets during such marches
So who's the NAzi again?
Whatever you define it as, apparently
are you sure you didn't actually join alt-right
@FailusMaximus Are you familiar with the horseshoe theory when it comes to political ideologies?
@FailusMaximus Such meaningless concepts have already broken down in me. The question is if innocent people are getting hurt or not, everything else is software bloat
22:27
yeah, I am, and while often it fits like a horseshoe on a horse, sometimes its as wrong as if you were putting it on camels
@Mephistopheles ok I can see why you almost joined alt-right
What I meant was that Mephistopheles isn't alt-right, he's just the equivalent on the other side.
@FailusMaximus I'm whatever Luke Smith is
a person who can't tell different sizes of evil, can obviously be manipulated easily by just about any extreme ideology
knowing "scales of horrible" apart is important
@Halfthawed ?
I mean, seriously Czechs did act horrible after WW2
22:32
@FailusMaximus Why did I almost join the alt-right?
Horseshoe theory. The farther apart from the center you get, the closer the ideology is. That is to say, the alt-right, which is an extremist position taken my ethnocentric nationalists who call themselves conservatives share many qualities with those that are on the far left and termed 'Antifa'.
because if you can't tell contrast of evil apart, once someone can convince you that something is "a threat", you're already done for
@Halfthawed Nah, we never had Antifa with a high-score of 9
@Mephistopheles Once again, I've lost you. What does that mean?
@FailusMaximus As if I were so gullible.
22:34
well, you're unable to tell contrast between some people retaliating like that and what nazis did
there used to be 300 000 jews in Czechoslovakia
around 270 k were killed during WW2
that's 90% mortality rate
@Halfthawed Antifa does property damage and assaults people with bike locks, Dylan Roof kills 9 churchgoing blacks
there were 3 000 000 Germans kicked out of Czechoslovakia
@Mephistopheles Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?
15 - 25 k died, which is less than 1%
@FailusMaximus That doesn't matter, once a life is taken, it doesn't come back, no matter the stand, it can't bring them back, that's why even one casualty is one too many.
22:36
obviously for people who were directly or indirectly responsible for those deaths, life sentences and possibly executions should have been done, because that's intollerable
but the scale of those 2 events is so utterly different, that "so who's a nazi now" shows how shallow your understanding of scales of those events is
@Mephistopheles Do you think it's okay to hit people with bike locks?
Notice what I'm not doing: Defending murderers.
@Halfthawed No, but HoW DoEs ThAt CoMpArE To MuRdEr?
what you're showing is somewhat more empathetic version of "1 death is tragedy 1 million is statistics"
oh, nvm
@Mephistopheles You draw up a difference in that one side committed murder, and you haven't joined that side. Fine. But Antifa is still evil.
you're not that kind of person, I'm sorry
you're just selectively biased
you know that bike lock attack was life threatening
I mean, it wasn't like 90% risk of death, but more like 10% risk of death
so you're not unable to see different scales of evil, you're only able to do it when it suits you
otherwise "who's nazi here now"
22:41
I accidentally hit enter, what I was saying, a single Dylan Roof inflicts more damage then a gang of Antifa, that isn't saying Antifa isn't a threat.
Just that they're both as dangerous, Antifa as numbers swell, Nazis as prep time increases
Antifa is a threat and needs to be stopped. Good, we're in agreement about that.
yeah, but 25 000 death of 3 000 000 vs 270 000 of 300 000 "wHo'S a NaZi NoW?"
yeah, those who fucking killed those innocent civilians are evil, and deserve the harshest possible punishment for what they did was murder
though they sadly escaped because communism
@FailusMaximus Radnóti Miklós got the short end of the stick, whoever forces that fate on other innocent people, no matter how right they feel is cruel and maybe a nazi themselves.
basically these people jumped the communist party which approved of such behaviour to Germans
so what
22:46
Josef Čapek (Czech pronunciation: [ˈjozɛf ˈtʃapɛk]; 23 March 1887 – April 1945) was a Czech artist who was best known as a painter, but who was also noted as a writer and a poet. He invented the word robot, which was introduced into literature by his brother, Karel Čapek. == Life == Čapek was born in Hronov, Bohemia (Austria-Hungary, later Czechoslovakia, now the Czech Republic) in 1887. First a painter of the Cubist school, he later developed his own playful, minimalist style. He collaborated with his brother Karel on a number of plays and short stories; on his own, he wrote the utopian play...
humans in the end, are animals
Miklós Radnóti (birth name Miklós Glatter; 5 May 1909, Budapest, Austria-Hungary — November 1944 nearby Abda, Kingdom of Hungary) was a Hungarian teacher and poet. == Biography == Miklós Glatter was the son of a vendor of the textile business company Brück & Grosz in Budapest. He was born in the 13th district quarter Újlipótváros of the Royal Hungarian capital city of Austria-Hungary. At birth, his twin brother was born dead and his mother died soon after childbirth. He spent most of his childhood years with his aunt's family whose husband Dezső Grosz was one of the owners of the textile company...
we might pretend we're just, but it takes a little to turn us into evil beasts, convinced we're but a hand of justice
@FailusMaximus That's what the rules are for
rules fall apart
@FailusMaximus Not for me
22:50
that's what you think now
I have my own views. The peace treaties after WW1, their blatant injustices are what created all that suffering, which then turned to hatred, which then was exploited and led to the deaths of millions. It's the stupid kid's fault, who think about their own interests, instead of minimizing net damage.
There was antisemitism before WW1
Tiszaeszlár?
But it was a fringe group
so tell me what should have been done, according to you
was Czechoslovakia not supposed to happen?
were Czechs and Slovaks, and Rusyns supposed to stay German and Hungarian slaves
By 1928, situation Czechoslovakia was clear
@FailusMaximus Equal rights, enforced by the Antant, demilitarization, in exchange for financial help.
who would pay that help?
would it be France, that was out of money more than Germany?
would it be UK that was also struggling financially enough to have to deal with its own problems
@FailusMaximus USA
22:57
but why would they do that?
@FailusMaximus To atone for the existence of Woodrow Wilson
I'm sorry, what
what?
would you like a bottle of mustard gas with that, sir?
Birth of a Nation?
@FailusMaximus Y E S
USA had no obligations to anyone when it comes to WW1
yeah, so I think I really understand now
you just have unbelievable double standards
@FailusMaximus Are you saying they're incapable of altruism?
23:01
no, they could do that
but if they decided not to do so, what next
also, what about Czechoslovakia
It's not like broke losers can't pay you, so helping them is helping yourself
what about balkan states
@FailusMaximus Peacefully fell apart
@FailusMaximus A 24/7 "No Russians" level of bloodbath
@Mephistopheles Only hindsight is 20/20. What you suggest is a good course of action, but only to people who knew what would happen otherwise.
@Halfthawed That's why they should have had foresight and a good grasp on the relations of ethnicities.
23:05
in 1928, germans in Czechoslovakia were integrating quite well
Yes. A great tragedy that they couldn't see into the future.
cooperation was blooming, and the country was stable
then the financial crisis fucked things up greatly
@Halfthawed History is slow enough for humans to have enough foresight to see incoming bloodbaths of that scale
Gotta sleep no
23:06
hahaha
good one
that was good joke Meph
bye
No. They called WW1 the 'War to End All Wars'.
certainly not for British, and not for Chamberlain
1938 Munich, kek
No one saw WWII coming except for a handful of people that everyone called 'warhawks' and refused to listen to, mostly because everyone in power was so terrified of another war on that scale they just saw what they wanted to see.
the whole war wouldn't have happened without it
@Halfthawed that and one Czech writer boi... and about our entire nation
The White Disease (Czech: Bílá nemoc) is a play written by Czech novelist Karel Čapek in 1937. Written at a time of increasing threat from Nazi Germany to Czechoslovakia, it portrays a human response to a tense, prewar situation in an unnamed country that greatly resembles Germany with one extra, somewhat absurd addition: an uncurable white disease, a mysterious form of leprosy, is selectively killing off people older than 45. It was adapted as the film Skeleton on Horseback by Hugo Haas. == Plot == A disease called White disease is spreading in the country and elsewhere in Europe. It kills its...
Czechoslovakia knew that Germans were at it again
Problem just was that no one wanted to believe them.
23:11
funny thing, Daladier? he knew war was coming but bent over backwards to chamberlain while writing the Munich treaty was insane
lot of people knew
but they just watched and whenever they could do anything to stop it, they shrank back
1st September 1939, when WW2 began
Chamberlain was convinced that with help of Mussolini, they'll repeat the Munich
they'll just give Hitler piece of Poland and all will be ok
by then, even British parliament had enough of his shit tho
History isn't kind to Chamberlain.
@Mephistopheles How am I a bigot? I think everyone should have equal rights, and don't treat anyone differently in my personal life based on unchangeable characteristics (I mean, there's not really any way for you to check that, but assuming I'm not lying). I'm pretty sure that disqualifies me from bigotry.
well, he was an hippie idiot
Chamberlain could have been an acceptable prime minister during a time of peace. Unfortunately for him, he wasn't a prime minister at a time of peace.
not just acceptable
great
in that, his capacity was great
for a peacetime, he was a great politician
but his views led him to basically arming Hitler for WW II
23:16
He just really liked appeasement. Which doesn't ever really work. I mean, it works for as long as you're willing to keep giving the evil people more stuff, but there eventually comes a point where you have to stop.
"In times of peace, prepare for war." Or, if you want to go all Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum
and giving Hitler czechoslovakia was probably the stupidest move he did
because that was exactly resources Hitler needed
funny thing, if he just did nothing, instead of trying to appease Hitler, WW2 wouldn't really happen
Germany was running out of resources, and was nowhere near armed to pose threat to Poland, much less France
and in Czechoslovakia, they'd meet army that was with help of defences their even match
they were in dead end situation
their preparations for war led them to that dead end
Maybe. At best, it might have been contained to Europe, but even still, that might have meant a delay in Germany's violation of the non-aggression clause with Stalin, leading to Russia conquering Poland.
Japan would still have invaded China at some point on that timeline, though.
yeah, but then it would be localized war
Japan attack on USA was opportunistic
@FailusMaximus And also very stupid.
23:20
British had their hands full dealing with Nazis so Japan knew it would be 1 on 1
not really
Gryph, Japan was also kinda in dead end
they fucked up themselves diplomatically by commiting attrocities in China
low on resources
defeating America was their only way out
I mean, the best decision they could have made was probably to just kinda stop. Don't invade anywhere else, just hold onto what they had.
and because Britain was off the game, and USA was kinda pacifist, they hoped they could scare USA into letting them take some key thing from them
the goal was scare USA so that they surrender something in a peace treaty
and with USA being pacifist, it looked like achievable goal
problem was, they knew they had no way of actually winning war
their only hope was USA doesn't call their bluff and allows some settlement where Japan gets some stuff
But if they'd just not attacked, consolidated in all the places they already had, the US would've probably just stayed isolationist and they wouldn't have lost anything. Basically, they were betting their entire empire against a few settlements somewhere.
23:52
that wasn't enough
not enough vespene gas
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