The Factory Floor

Failus Maximus

17:38

yo?

Halfthawed

21:33

(raises eyebrow)
(checks link)
Ah, I see among other things that a mass shooter has checked Ben Shapiro's twitter feed. This is, without question, the most pure and indicative of arguments that Ben Shapiro is a hateful bigot. Word of advice: If you want people to take you seriously, make serious arguments. And even if you have good arguments, once you mix in crud like that, don't expect people to take you seriously.

Mephistopheles

21:44

@Halfthawed Again, context matters. I wouldn't see any correlation if it wasn't for Ben's views and Brenton's views (yes, I've read the manifesto and I'm also seeding that and the video). Ben is no Hitler, he's just a stupid lawyer who says before thinking, which got him into trouble, and I don't feel sorry for him

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles I see. You're saying that if the man hadn't visited Ben's Twitter feed, he wouldn't have gone on the mass shooting, then.

If that's truly what you think, perhaps you should consider flipping your line of cause and effect.

A crazed man scours the Internet for people who he thinks share his line of reasoning. But the man he finds does not, in reality, share his opinion, the man he finds only does so in the crazed rational of the madman.

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed No, he (Tarrant) was radicalized by a random fringe group (and Spyro the Dragon taught him ethno nationalism ;)

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles Then we are in agreement that using that as an argument is a terrible argument and a logical fallacy

Mephistopheles

What I'm saying is, when literal mass-murdering racist memelords flock to you, you should think about your message, especially when you aren't an unaware centrist like PewDiePie

Halfthawed

>insert comment about communism here

Mephistopheles

21:49

?

Ki tiltja meg, hogy elmondjam, mi bántott
hazafelé menet?
A gyepre éppen langy sötétség szállott,
mint bársony-permeteg
és lábom alatt álmatlan forogtak,
ütött gyermekként csendesen morogtak
a sovány levelek.

Fürkészve, körben guggoltak a bokrok
a város peremén.
Az őszi szél köztük vigyázva botlott.
A hűvös televény
a lámpák felé lesett gyanakvóan;
vadkácsa riadt hápogva a tóban,
amerre mentem én.

Épp azt gondoltam, rám törhet, ki érti,
e táj oly elhagyott.
S im váratlan előbukkant egy férfi,

Here

Halfthawed

Those that have flocked to the banner of communism are responsible for more deaths in the last 100 years than literally any other ideology. Perhaps they should think about their message?

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed Stalin was authoritarian

Rákosi was a deluded idiot

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles Ah yes. I believe the Rational Wiki would term that statement as a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy

Also, while I don't mind having discussions, you're going to have to give me either context or translation for that wall of text

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed Nagy Imre and other competent people were forced into the backstage, since they had a spine, but they had the same ideology. NoU reverse card

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles Ah. So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that an ideology, even if it spawns terrible, horrible, no-good people, does not necessarily mean the ideology is bad, and in fact good people within that ideology should continue to spread the message

Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding?

Mephistopheles

21:56

@Halfthawed When Hungary changed oppressors, many fascist secret police members became ÁVH/ÁVO (commie secret police) members.

Ideology has nothing to do with this, it's the Law of Conservation of Violence

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles In other words, rats are rats no matter who they belong to?

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed yes, and József Attila will still be a communist, even if he wrote a poem that's anti-authoritarian (he was a commie when it was actually dangerous)

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles So, by the logic of 'rats are rats no matter who they belong to', your initial criticism of 'changing your message if you inspire racist memelords' doesn't logically follow. Those who are evil will be evil no matter what side they're on, so therefore they should be ignored when it comes to spreading ideological messages.

Because after all, ideology has nothing to do with this, it's the Law of Conservation of Violence.

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed That lines up with what I said. Ben should reconsider his message if he's attracting rats, not because he's making them, but because his mindset is similar to theirs, i.e: rampant Islamophobia, over glorification of a non-existent homogeneous "western civilization", and cognitive dissonance when it comes to reconciling nihilism and the idea of self-regulating capitalism

okay, the last is just Ben's flaw

correction: I said nihilism, I meant pessimism

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles No it doesn't. It contradicts what you said. If you're of the belief that 'ideology has nothing to do with the Law of Conservation of Violence' and 'rats will be rats', then there's no reason to ever change your viewpoint just because of the rats. In fact, as you've pointed out earlier, changing your ideology does nothing to affect rats, as the rats easily jumped between Fascism and Communism at the drop of a hat to be rats.

Also, I'll be honest, I've never heard that last point before. What do you mean by 'cognitive dissonance of reconciling pessimism and self-regulating capitalism'?

Mephistopheles

22:10

@Halfthawed That doesn't mea... I mean, dictatorships are identical! Rats share many traits that aren't parts of an ideology, but are parts of oppressive regimes. They're usually the methods , not the goals. Nagy Imre went against those injustices, and that's why he ended up where he did.

Us vs Them is a common trope. Make an irredeemable, unreasonable enemy. Make it out to be bigger than what it is and then you can go fearmongering

Halfthawed

I don't understand how you're addressing the flaw in your argument. If rats aren't part of an ideology, then why does it matter what ideology is spouted?

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed Because there are permutations of every ideology, with usually at least one ratified version (we should stop calling them rats btw, those don't kill each other)

Halfthawed

Therefore what? There's a 'ratified version of an ideology', therefore what? Does that means that the ideology now attracts rats or doesn't attract rats?
(Also, I'm fine with swapping the word out if you've got a better word.)

Mephistopheles

Rajk should suffice. For instance, there is a conservative centrists, they attract the Rajkified version of conservatism, with their extreme and brutal beliefs like "kill all the mudslimes" in place of the centrist's "eliminate terrorism"

I have to go now. If you need a reason why I have a low-opinion on Ben, watch this:

Ben Shapiro and the Politics of Imagination

►

Halfthawed

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with Hungarian politics so I don't understand what you mean by that and I really don't want to misunderstand you. What do you mean?

Mephistopheles

22:27

@Halfthawed That wasn't a Hungarian example, I'd have used "gypsies" and "violent crimes" then

Halfthawed

Laszlo Rajk, a Hungarian politician? Is that not who you're referring to when you say Rajk?

I don't know who that is, sorry.

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed Oh yeah, I was referring to Rajk László, wanna know why?

Halfthawed

Yes, that's what I was asking.

Mephistopheles

He made ÁVH and he was executed by ÁVH, after some internal purging and the obligatory kangaroo court

Isn't that hillarious

?

The killing joke?

Halfthawed

I mean, I'm familiar with history, so yes, that's a very standard pattern which shows up more or less everywhere. The problem with being Kingmaker is that you're the biggest threat to the King once you make him.

Go back to my initial point: It seems to me what you're saying is that extreme position from conservatism can attract people who otherwise wouldn't be evil, but extreme version of other ideologies, like communism, just attract people who are already evil. If that's not what you're saying, I've repeatedly asked you for either a difference between ideologies, or for you to say that ideologies cause people to act as evil, and you've done neither.

Also, this argument (or at the very least, my side of it) has nothing to do with Ben Shapiro, I'm merely trying to understand why you think pointing to a radical lunatic who looked up a popular thought leader somehow negates the person's ideology isn't a fallacy.

Mephistopheles

22:36

@Halfthawed The thing is, communism wasn't evil, Nagy Imre wasn't evil, József Attila had a life history that would be just fine in any soap opera (or in Joker), just by the sheer number of tragedies, and while he wasn't mentally healthy, he never actually hurt anyone besides himself.

Halfthawed

@Mephistopheles I'm not countering any of those arguments right now. I'm asking why you think that the criticism isn't a logical fallacy.

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed That I would rethink my message a bit if I met with my foil. Especially when I thrive on fallacies and WESTERN CIVILIZATION

The same goes for Sargon and you can't just say "You act like a bunch of white niggers" (especially when the Irish were called that in the past) and expect them to go away without making sure you don't have mixed messages.

Halfthawed

Speaking of fallacies - you have one single point. Yes, it's a fine thing to say that you should reconsider the ideology you spew if someone has killed people in the name of your ideology. However, that wasn't the case - it was someone who believed a different ideology that people like conflating with Ben's, which is why he was looked up.

And while I'd expect someone to check their ideology, there's nothing wrong with looking it over afterwards and saying 'No, my ideology is fine and that man was just a lunatic who couldn't be helped.

Saying 'He must be wrong' because this event is a fallacy, and that's what Rational Wiki has done.

Mephistopheles

@Halfthawed That's correct

Now, let's talk dog-whistles

Halfthawed

A high-pitched sound above human hearing

Discussion over.

Or did you mean something else?

Mephistopheles

22:42

Bowlcut

in the right context

Halfthawed

A hairstyle, I think?

Mephistopheles

Halfthawed

Also, I'd disagree with your assertion that Ben thrives on 'fallacies and WESTERN CIVILIZATION', but I suspect that's an argument which is a magnitude larger than this chat can handle.

Mephistopheles

Dog whistles, in paper, can only be understood by only a small portion of the population, the target audience

Halfthawed

Hey, I was right about the bowlcut. Look at that!
Seriously, I don't what you mean when you say that. I understand that some people say that messages are hidden in certain things, but I don't know them, so pointing to the whistle and say 'Look! A dog-whistle!', does nothing.

Also, I'm pretty sure that's not Ben Shapiro.

Mephistopheles

22:46

it's a Xanatos gamle, if you let them use it, they will "assert dominance" on you by photobombing people and showing off their numbers, if you ban the symbol, innocents might get caught up in it

Re-appropriation is the only real way to deal with them

I'd love if people could be called Adolf again, and my nordic runes get back to where they belong, in the hands of the people

Halfthawed

I agree with that last statement. Mostly.

Mephistopheles

?

Halfthawed

I'm not sure how you transitioned to it with the statements previous to that, but I think that fighting a hate symbol by sublimating it until it's meaningless is a fine idea.

Got to go. I'll have to pick this up later if we continue this, sorry.

Mephistopheles

goodnight

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