The Factory Floor

Alucard

11:24 AM

hi :)

Green

@Alucard hi!

Alucard

11:49 AM

can an islandfaction exist without a military branch? otherwise i might think of creating a piratefaction :)

Secret

Ice Mountain & Lava Path Mix - Super Mario Galaxy Music Extended

►

If only there is a more concrete way to describe this synergy when the extreme cold mixed with the extreme heat and somehow they don't cancel out

Alucard

What do you think of this list of jobs? What would I need more (actually as i think of it, I'd need hospitals and schools) pastebin.com/GzWzzyHJ

Green

12:22 PM

@Secret im not sure what you mean. You linked a music video but are talking about physical quantities.

@Secret how do you want them to end up after mixing but not cancel out? Something lava lamp like?

AndyD273

12:35 PM

@Alucard What's an islandfaction?

Secret

@Green uh I mean, if something is exposed to extreme heat, it will melt, vaporise, atomise etc., whereas if something is exposed to extreme cold, it will become brittle, hard and some other strange things

So if we exposed something simutaneously to extreme heat and extreme cold, it will be a lot worse, but I don't know how to describe what the thing will become

There's something common between extreme heat and extreme cold, but I cannot quite pinpoint what that is

AndyD273

@Secret excitation of molecules? When things cool down, the molecules get less excited, slow down, and at absolute zero they stop completely. When they heat up they get more and more excited, until they get enough energy to change state into either a gas or a plasma.

Alucard

@AndyD273 mmh, i mean a minimalistic nation, with their own laws but not quite big enough to be a real nation, how would you call that? The population would be in the sub 1000s

Green

@Secret Well, extreme heat alone will destroy something. Extreme cold + physical trauma (generally, the specifics are of course more details) = destruction.

@Alucard So a small tribe, then?

AndyD273

@Alucard Gotcha. Thought that's what you might have meant. Military is only needed for outside threats. If you don't have those, then you can get away with just having a police, like the old town sheriff

Green

12:49 PM

@AndyD273 Good morning!

AndyD273

Morning @Green! How have things been going?

Alucard

@Green don't know, tribe could nail it.

something like a viking village, without vikings haha

Green

@AndyD273 It turns out that my science project keeps getting more and more complicated.

AndyD273

1:17 PM

@Alucard Tortuga?

@Green I believe it. Still in the modeling phase, or have you started physical construction?

Green

@AndyD273 Still in the 'What do these equations even mean' phase.

AndyD273

Probably cheaper than the phase where you ask your wife where you should keep a couple hundred pounds of stainless steal pipe

2

Green

I've found some good papers that give more detailed descriptions of which equations are needed and why and in what forms. The papers are still 200 pages long and I have to work my way through.

@AndyD273 For sure!

The agreement I have with her is that I won't spend any money till I have good models to work with.

AndyD273

That sounds fair

Green

@AndyD273 I also live in a one bedroom apartment in the city. Finding space to actually build a reactor (and get the right permits, etc) is non-trivial. It can be done but I think I'd want investors at that point.

AndyD273

1:25 PM

What kind of permits do you need? I can see the space being an issue, maybe make a good friend with a garage or barn, and some welding equipment, but if you're not dealing with radioactives do you actually need a permit to tinker around?

Green

@AndyD273 Well, the reactor atmosphere is hydrogen and methane. Hydrogen is explosive across a huge range of concentrations. Methane is natural gas so that will need to be properly handled/disposed off too. I may need nitric acid and or sulphuric acid for post-processing.

Alucard

@AndyD273 if you mean this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortuga_(Haiti) yeah, a good real world model

Green

The Fire Department is very particular about knowing who has which explosives in which facility.

AndyD273

So mostly so you can buy the chemicals you need

Green

@AndyD273 Yes. All the feed stock and pre/post processing materials are available commercially.

AndyD273

1:40 PM

@Alucard Probably a lot of the caribbean islands during the golden age of sail would work. Though they also were mostly associated with one or another of the european powers, and it sounds like your is going to be independant

You might be able to do without a military by just having a defendable island surrounded by reefs or high cliffs, and a citizen militia to be called out if raiders attack.

Hosch250

You might be able to get away without a military if you have nothing worth taking.

Or if you do have anything, by having good trade relations.

Like, if you trade freely with anyone who wants your stuff at good prices, they are less likely to want to steal it because simply maintaining the island will have its costs too.

Of course, in the colonial era, that might not work.

AndyD273

@Hosch250 There's always something work taking, even if it's just slaves.

Hosch250

@AndyD273 If the population is too small, even that might not be profitable.

You get one trip and net 20-50 people--about a 1/6 of a ship load.

And odds might be that they put up a fierce fight and kill a bunch of your guys. A lot of slavery was about persuading other tribes to do the fighting and just picking up the pre-subdued captives at little risk.

Hosch250

3:19 PM

TFW they broadcast for HR to go to the generator. I wonder if they are firing it.

Green

3:34 PM

@Hosch250 um, what? Do you mean that someone in HR is going to get fired?

Ash

@Hosch250 Or are HR being used as fuel?

AndyD273

@Hosch250 broadcast, like over a loud speaker, vs just calling someone on the phone?

Contemplating the puzzle... Someone got injured, and HR is getting called in to make sure that all the paperwork needed gets taken care of before sending them to a doctor.

I had something like that happen once actually. Was cleaning around some really hot pipes, raised the broom to take another stroke, and forgot that there was one right above me, burned my hand pretty good. Had to get driven to the clinic, and then when I got back had a meeting with HR and my supervisor to see if safety protocols had been followed.

Green

4:09 PM

@AndyD273 I'd want to know why the pipes weren't insulated? Just from an efficiency perspective, you don't want heat loses in transmission.

AndyD273

@Green Losing heat wasn't really a problem, since they were on the way to the cooling tower.

IIRC. It was a long time ago.

Green

@AndyD273 Oh. That makes sense then.

@AndyD273 Was this at a factory?

AndyD273

@Green potash refinery, with a side business in salt.

Green

@AndyD273 Nice. Very loud place too?

AndyD273

Basically, pump really hot water a mile or so down into the ground, dissolve the mineral, then pump it back up. It's actually one of the purest potash deposits in the world. Once back up it had to get all the water evaporated out and stuff.

Some places were pretty loud. ear and eye protection were mandatory unless they took stuff off line for a deep cleaning... That part was a really claustrophobic job.

Well, eye protection was still mandatory

Also face masks. The air got pretty tangy with potash dust. Not something you want to breath in. Also, potash is very very slightly radioactive apparently.

Green

4:25 PM

@AndyD273 I'd definitely want a face mask. Didn't know it was radioactive though I have a faint memory that potassium is radioactive.

AndyD273

I had to do a self fact check: "K40 is present in all potassium at a very low concentration, 0.0118 %."

scohe001

Hey guys! Can I get a second opinion on this Sandbox question if someone's ~~bored~~ got a second?

Green

@scohe001 I'll take a look at it.

scohe001

Thanks @Green!!

Green

@scohe001 (Just thinking out loud) Your question asks for a search algorithm to reduce X millions of students to exactly 1000 students.

Most of the parameters you provided are about how the tests would be run and less about the criteria you want.

A lot of the backstory is interesting but could probably cut in half. Most of it doesn't contribute all that much to what you're looking for.

scohe001

4:39 PM

@Green yessir. I'm thinking of making it a little broader. The overall search will only take 9 months of the 12 alloted so I was thinking of saying I really only need it reduced to around 5000

Green

@scohe001 Do you know anything about the nature of the dungeon or in-universe, the government just knows that there will be a dungeon?

scohe001

@Green in-universe a huge structure appeared and everyone with even a tiny bit of seer's blood got the same vision/message from the gods at the same time. They really know nothing outside of what's in the question

Green

@scohe001 Cool.

So, you actually want the most flexible children. That's extremely difficult to test for.

Book smarts != Ability to do the thing.

I like this challenge.

scohe001

Haha you're telling me!

I've been gnawing on this for a week or two and I have no idea what to do

I was thinking just tossing them into an arena and doing some kind of combat, but evening it out so that straight strength doesn't just win everything is a problem

Green

@scohe001 I don't think you can interview kids to get the "best". Taking book learnin' tests will get you the best test-takers.

Perhaps this is a team composition problem, instead of "the best of the best of the best, sir!" problem.

scohe001

4:45 PM

@Green exactly. Not to mention that'd make cheating super easy

@Green hmm how do you mean?

Green

@scohe001 Well, a super strong kid may have devoted most of their time to being super strong, 5 hrs/day in the gym, that kind of thing. But, some other kid may be crazy good at figuring out puzzles but has difficulty lifting a small child.

We acknowledge that one person can't have all the skills required to be super-flexible in the upcoming dungeon. It just isn't possible.

However, a team composed of people with various strengths could be far more flexible than any one person.

This is very similar to building teams for DnD dungeons. Mages melt faces with fireballs (as @James loves to do). Warriors just beat things into submission. Priests heal damage.

Teams allow you get the benefits of specialization and diversity in finite time and resources. Individuals will only get you specialization without diversity.

Does that make sense?

scohe001

Ahh I like it. I considered something similar, testing to split the 1000 into the best 200 mages/200 warriors/200 rogues/200 priests/etc... but id run into the same proble for the tests for each of those

Like it would make testing easier since what I’m testing for is more narrow, but I still need to test for overall flexibility and now I need to test for “teamwork” and “leadership” as well

Green

@scohe001 Testing a specialization is pretty easy. "Hey strong-person, lift this thing." You can't cheat that.

After you've proven all the specialized skills, you'd want to compose teams, let them train for a while then test the teams.

Testing the teams will be far more complicated and would require a more holistic approach. Some teams just won't gel so you'd form new teams or just disqualify someone who's really bad.

OH! You could have each team devise tests for other teams. So, have team A design some complicated dungeon/challenge then team B has to go through it. Team B designs a challenge for team A. You could also have a team of adults design problems too.

Ender's Game has a similar progression of difficulty in tests. That might be a useful pattern to follow for you.

@scohe001 And maybe you want cheating. Someone clever enough to see through the rules and achieve the required goals would be really handy to have around. You want 'cheatery' people.

Alucard

i have another problem on my island apart from necessary jobs. all buildings are made of wood, so candles are probably not a good idea. So i think my island is on a location where there's always "summer", i.e. long days. Also candles would have to be imported...

Green

5:01 PM

@Alucard I wouldn't disqualify candles just because the buildings are wood. Most modern homes in the US are wood but that doesn't preclude natural gas stoves.

@scohe001 have I talked too much? (I sometimes worry.)

scohe001

@Green Hmm I like the idea of at least two rounds of testing--one for specialization and one for teamwork/flexibility/general stuff

I worry about testing them in teams though. What if someone would shine and be amazingly good with a kid who's on the other side of the continent. There are almost a million kids to test after all, I don't know it'd be fair to test them in teams with partners who might not work at all

@Green I agree that cheating from the kids is good, but I'm worried about external cheating. Like from the rich nobles. I'm all for a cunning thief winning, but if a fat noble's son gets a spot just by being born rich, that'd make things difficult

Green

@scohe001 I'm not sure that particular problem can be helped unless there's a magic oracle to provide these kinds of answers (but then, if you have an oracle this powerful, the oracle would just designate the teams for you.)

scohe001

@Green hahaha nonono this is awesome! I just had to drive back home for lunch :)

@Green well once I'm down 1,000 kids, I have 2 years to train them, so testing every permutation isn't a problem

Green

@scohe001 You could counter this in two ways. First, allow teams to re-form themselves by voting teams out. Don't force them to keep people on their team that they don't like.

If the rich fat kid is incapable, then his team mates will eject him from the group. His wounded ego can be stroked by his overindulgent parents later.

scohe001

Unless the teammates have been bought by the noble...

Or there's some leverage the noble has over them to force them to cooperate

Green

5:07 PM

@scohe001 If the teams and the testing environment are sufficiently isolated, this may not be a problem.

scohe001

Hmmm

I'll have to think on it

Green

Secondly, somehow make it costly to enter and fail. Charge a large non-refundable entry fee.

scohe001

Switching from solos to teams turns the whole question on its head though

Alucard

@Green mmh, then i obviously need firemen(or women) too

scohe001

@Green That'd work counter to the goal of the government being desperate enough to try everyone. One of my MC's is of the poor-orphan-down-on-his-luck-with-nowhere-else-to-turn variety

Green

5:09 PM

If it costs a noble >1/10th of his lands/riches to enter his son while a poor person only has to give 1/10th of a farthing to enter their son. The rich person will be far less likely to make that bet if they know that their son will likely underperform.

@scohe001 Anyone who volunteers should be allowed to enter. Volunteers will also have a decent idea of the things they are good at. They'll self-select into which ever specialization suits them best.

Hah! And if the nobleman does wager 1/10th his riches to enter his underperforming son then he will pay for his own hubris. (That tastes so delicious to me.)

scohe001

@Green haha I think you underestimate the riches and glory that await those lucky 1,000. Nobles have been training their children their whole 15 year lives for this. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a noble stole some kids off the street and trained them for years only to enter them with the noble's son so that the son could do better (this is the rival/anti-hero of one of the MC's)

Variable cost to enter is interesting though. Definitely something I'll think about

Green

@scohe001 Scale the entry cost with the means of the family. Flat entry fees favor the rich and we want to encourage as broad a slice of the population as possible.

@scohe001 And I'll bet that most of them went to expensive schools to teach them to flexible and capable people instead of throwing them into the fires of adversity to be flexible.

scohe001

@Green hmm making it cost would help recoup the costs of having to travel the land for all these tests...

Alucard

cost that increases per income, like 1/10 for the farmer, 3/10 for the rich men

Green

I think you'd also be open to admitting already formed teams. Some street gang with all the right attributes/team composition might outperform a team of high performance individuals who just now formed a team.

@scohe001 And having it cost to enter would mean that those who volunteer are highly invested. Things you get for free aren't worth nearly as much as the things you pay for, even if the free thing and paid thing are the same thing.

Remember that the objective of the program is to find the best, most flexible, most capable team to survive and win in the dungeon. Riches, fame, all that stuff is secondary to survival.

scohe001

5:18 PM

@Green but I'll have 2 years to train them after we select them, so any advantage they have from familiarity will probably be gone by the time they actually enter the dungeon. That was another reason I didn't want to test them as teams

Green

@scohe001 Not test them as teams ever, or do you not want to test them as teams on initial entry?

@scohe001 (Also, "Young Adult Fiction Reason #57..." is hilarious)

scohe001

@Green Conducting an 8hr test for every kid in the specified age range would take 9 months, so if I can narrow it down to 5-10k by then, then maybe I could test in teams, but for the initial tests I want them to be individual tests

@Green haha thank you thank you

Green

@scohe001 This is something I have less experience with. My gut says that a team who's been working together for 10 to 15 years will have better team dynamics and a more fluid feel than a team who's worked together for only 2 years.

Someone with more experience training people would have a better idea.

@scohe001 I'd advertise the testing as "Glory and Riches if you win, Painful deaths in training if you don't measure up." Without a real and immediate cost, everyone will be hung up on the riches and fame if they win. By introducing the prospect of death while testing and training, you'll weed out a lot of people.

scohe001

@Green hmm for adults I'd agree. But when your subjects are only 13-15 years old? I'd guess that two years of training as they turn 16-18 will probably be just as effective as if they were with childhood friends

@Green ooh that'd raise the steaks for the whole thing too. I like it

Green

@scohe001 This is Hunger Games, where teenagers kill each other for sport.

@scohe001 I don't know. Maybe. You could certainly write your story to create those highly formative/gelling experiences. Handwaving this part is easy to do.

And if there aren't any other 10 year teams to compare the 2 year teams with, it'll be hard to tell the difference.

scohe001

5:29 PM

@Green haha I was thinking more the trials will kill them. We only want the best. Killing other entrants would be discouraged since we want the most possible, but not forbidden. Damn that'd be good

@Green haha true true

Green

@scohe001 Wow. You'll have found yourself a true sociopath if they are willing to kill other teenagers. Maybe you need that kind of a person.

If you remove the taboo of murder then your story could get really dark, really fast.

Alucard

Maybe some sort of ritual to get into the military?

some elite force

scohe001

@Green haha more like the anti-heroes are going to start writing themselves. This'll definitely be fun

Green

@scohe001 The SR-71 pilot training program is one of the most rigorous I know of. NASA Astronauts are probably close.

I found this page describing the selection process.

quartoknows.com/blog/quartodrives/…

You might also want to look into astronaut selection processes too.

Or, the Navy Seals. Perhaps, especially the Navy Seals. They are the perfect mix of lethality, smarts and toughness.

Perhaps just asking an applicant, 'why do you want to be here' would be a good start.

> If you ever want to stop an Air Force pilot from doing something, just tell him it “might” permanently ground him from ever flying again....Many good aviators were unwilling to take such a gamble. “Betting your wings” was something to joke about, though deadly serious in application.

AndyD273

@Green Heard an interesting tidbit about the seals... the training boot camp period for the seals isn't actually about training at all. Its one and only purpose is to weed out the people who don't really really really want to be there.

Green

5:42 PM

@AndyD273 Yep!

AndyD273

Debunking The Myth About SEAL Training

►

"I checked in with the master chief after finishing the training, and the first thing he said was "everyone in here has been through it, no one cares."

Green

@AndyD273 Heh "You're not special. Move along."

Alucard

if WB would be as easy as an AOE game haha. Farms, lots of them...

AndyD273

Yup. Probably best to get that out of the way very quickly. The whole interview was pretty interesting too

@Alucard My brother was super fast at that game. I'd be chugging along on our lan vs match, and all the sudden chariot rush. It was fun when we figured out how to get camaros with rocket launchers though.

Alucard

@AndyD273 :D

James

5:53 PM

Hola wubbers

AndyD273

hi @James

James

@AndyD273 What's shakin

@Green I find it ironic that you were all "I'm not qualified" on the Elf question and then you hit all the points I was interested in with the Phoenicians.

AndyD273

@James Not much really. Fighting with a program, and looking forward to thursday when my b-day present is supposed to arrive.

Alucard

how would I solve the problem of missing contraceptives? the island should not be a brothel, but not a frigid place either, also i might need a bigger civilization than sub 1000, because people maybe dislike eachother some time and look for a new partner. (also more help to avoid incest) mmh

James

@AndyD273 Sounds like you already know what it is?

scohe001

6:02 PM

@Green I'll have to take a look! I'm about to hop into a 3hr meeting so I'll check it out later today. Thanks for all the help! I'll probably still ask here, but the question's going to look completely different from what I have now. Bouncing stuff off of you was a huge help!!

AndyD273

@James Oh, that reminds me... I did have one more thought to pitch the idea of the neanderthal/denisovan... You want it to be a secret world, but one where possibly occasionally someone who is a mundane with some latent ability might get allowed in... Huge percentages of the population have latent neanderthal and/or denisovan DNA, so it might be possible that occasionally just the right bits turn up in just the right places... Just a thought :)

@James Yeah. Getting the new Pixel 3. My old phone is ~4 years old, and I'm needing something fresh

Green

@James Well, heh :) I don't know my own strength! (with that especially big grin of mine.)

@scohe001 I'm happy to help. Ping me if I'm not around. I think you've got a really interesting problem to work on.

@James And you wrote a good question that I could answer. Thanks for the good question.

James

@AndyD273 I like the idea of half-breeds in that world. So "normal" humans may actually have elf blood or orc blood and sometimes they manifest more powerfully.

@AndyD273 now you mention it, its about time for me to upgrade as well.

@Green I'm not going into details but man you should have seen some of the comments/flags that got submitted against that thing.

Green

@James I looked through some of that comment thread. Monica's comments helped a ton with clarifying what you meant.

James

@Green Agreed. I thanked her for editing...she's really good at it.

Green

6:13 PM

(looking over the comment thread again) Geez, that's the closest to a full-on Reddit brawl I've seen on WB. Good grief people.

James

@Green Apparently you can't use the word race without being racist now...

and then there is the answer that goes into DNA and doesn't actually answer the question...

...DNA is completely irrelevant to the question.

AndyD273

People are literally going insane on those topics. It would be entertaining if it wasn't also really scary.

Green

@James What the F***!? The question is about selecting an extinct group of humans that match a set of specified cultural attributes. Geez.

James

@AndyD273 Agreed

@Green I'm really not worried about the Huns boycotting my book, should it ever get written, they aren't my target audience anyway.

AndyD273

@James Gotta watch out for the phoenician americans though. touchy bunch.

James

6:16 PM

@Green That's how I felt to. Someone flagged my comment because I said, "thanks for the perspective but I am not really worried about it"

@AndyD273 Clearly I will have to walk a fine line on that one. Ocean faring merchants are one of my primary audiences.

You know what the best part is...I am going to ask another one now about Dwarves.

AndyD273

@James I'm kinda looking forward to the orcs... There are going to be so many mad ocs in the comments.

James

I could do Orcs next.

my orcs are fun

...well...I mean violent yeah, but fun.

Green

6:32 PM

@James It's a matching question, not an ordering question. Anyway....

@James Violently fun?

James

@Green Exactly.

Green

This is not in any way helpful but I wonder if there's a way to subtly troll the people who are super anxious to accuse someone else of racism in a question. I'm not sure there is but it's a nice thought.

@James Mad, gleeful destruction. Sounds like my kind of people (as long as they stay far away from me.)

Green

6:47 PM

@James any sneak peak on the orc's cultural attributes?

James

@Green As a moderator I would never do that...

as much as I might want to.

@Green All the traits from this one apply: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/28573/…

0

Q: Finding real world historic examples of cultures/organizations/tribes to represent Orcs

I plan to make this a series of questions to avoid being overly broad. Each question will address a particular fantasy species ("race" in RPG terms). The traits will be based on the content included in this question, though the traits can also be found in this question, which lists all of the r...

Green

@James And that sentiment is why you make a good moderator and why I should only think about being a moderator but never actually be one.

James

But no sneak peak needed its up.

Green

@James I like it!

AndyD273

@Green I'm just trying to figure out what kind of thing you could do, subtle or otherwise, that would make them look more ridiculous than they do all by themselves.

Green

6:52 PM

I was going to say Polynesian people would make good Orcs but then I remembered 'must be extinct' requirement and got disappointed.

AndyD273

@Green waterborn orcs?

Green

@AndyD273 It would be an interesting twist.

elemtilas

7:11 PM

@James -- My concern is simple, and it is the same I've had for your other questions along these lines. As they're written, I find the very notion of equating any "tribe" of humans, historical or extant, with any fantasy race as a 1:1 correlation to be gravely insulting and inherently racist.

I've flagged the ones I've seen (I think Elves and now Orcs) for Moderator review. This particular slant in questioning has absolutely no place in this forum. What you are in effect doing is dehumanizing a whole group of people. Making them mere things and of no greater value than a piece in a fantasy puzzle. I know already you disagree with this position. I believe your words were "I don't care" or "I'm not concerned".

Well, I am concerned and I do care. My hope is that other people in this community find this line of inquiry to be similarly of concern. Thanks for the invitation, asking me to express my concerns!

Green

@elemtilas I wish to better understand your position. Doesn't racism imply an ordering of "this group of people is better than this group of people" whereas James' question asks for comparisons. How is comparison of two groups of individuals considered 'racist'? I don't think you're wrong, I just don't understand your position.

If there were any hint in any of the questions of 'this group is better than this group' then I'd absolutely agree with you....but I don't see anything in the question that asks for, or even implies that kind of ordering.

HDE 226868

Just taking the most recent question (the orc question) as an example, it also looks like @James is mostly asking about aspects of a society - not primarily physical characteristics. Tribal society, occasional nomadic behavior, an aversion to outside alliances - these aren't necessarily characteristics of races so much as societal groups.

It's kinda like asking for an example of a specific system of government, along with a given set of cultural ideals and behaviors.

Reading the elf question, it seems like that one is along the same lines. Lifespan is mentioned, but that seems to be the only biological trait that's considered relevant.

At any rate, @Green's points are sort of like what Monica said a few days ago:

Moderator note: There's a lot of discussion in comments about whether mapping fantasy "races" (more like species) to extinct human tribes/nations is racist and thus inappropriate on this site. I don't see racism for a couple reasons: (a) some of these fantasy species would be considered to be superior to humans so it's not an insult, (b) we can't identify the human races 'cause they're gone per the question, and (c) it's really about identifiable groups not races. But I'm sensitive to the complaint, so I'm going to make some edits that I hope will help. Discussion -> chat/meta please. — Monica Cellio ♦ Oct 12 at 1:59

James

7:28 PM

@elemtilas First off, the intent is not to dehumanize anyone. The fantasy races in the world I am considering are just as much people as the humans. Second, the point made in the comments was that "people will think you are racist." I disagree, and thus am not concerned with the insinuation.

I am also curious who will find it racist if the cultures being discussed no longer exist.

I guess I just don't understand the concern, hence the invitation to discuss.

James

7:40 PM

@elemtilas Actually it would help me understand if you could give me an example of how the question dehumanizes a group. Is it the traits?

Green

@James You've got my answer to the Orcs.

James

@Green Saw that. Two excellent options already :D Normans and Scythians.

dot_Sp0T

7:57 PM

Wassup peoples

James

Hola dot.

Green

@dot_Sp0T Wassup!

@dot_Sp0T you up for a little gift exchange this year? I've got some amazing new chocolate from San Francisco I can send you.

dot_Sp0T

Another christmasy thing you say?

Green

@dot_Sp0T Yeah!

dot_Sp0T

Hola Juan

@Green sounds swell. Is it okay if we pick up the idea again in about a month?

James

8:00 PM

@dot_Sp0T NO! NOW!

Green

@dot_Sp0T Überhaupt kein Problem.

dot_Sp0T

@Green wunderbar

@James you wanna join in?

Feeds 4026

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

This cavernous dimension should only be accessible from the interior yet it exists in a super-space containing other such dimensions. I'm designing a dimension (read universe) which is contained in a sort of multiverse that can be traversed with specific vessels. I imagine these dimensions as sp...

dot_Sp0T

So we will Christmas again this year HOHO HARRR

elemtilas

@Green My position that when we equalise real human beings (whether by ethnicity or by culture) with a mere object, be it a supposedly "superior" race like Elves or a "lesser" race like Orcs, we subject those real people, their descendants, to objectification.

Objectification is an act of malice. By doing so, you reduce and disregard the human dignity of a real people. I am not certain that James was acting without malice (again, he does not seem to care if other thought his line of questions were racist or not, which is a rather strange issue in and of itself!), though I hope not.

He does say here that it is not his intention to dehumanize. Well, the act is done, and I see it as a clear case of objectification. I happen to have Norman ancestry. I don't appreciate the equation with Orcs. I consider James to be engaging in a very easily avoidable bit of discrimination.

You asked for my opinion, and you got it. I am not on board with that line of question!

James

8:07 PM

@dot_Sp0T I don't know what we are talking about but sure.

dot_Sp0T

@elemtilas aren't you objectifying elves and other fantastical creatures now?

James

@dot_Sp0T Stand down

We @dot_Sp0T can have a sarcastic conversation about a different topic later :)

@elemtilas How are elves an "object?"

Green

Also, we're saying that the Normans, Phonecians and Sythians kicked all kinds of ass! We are complementing them on their success.

James

@elemtilas I could also use some explanation of why one of your distant ancestral forbearers being equated with Orcs bothers you. I have norman ancestry as well...but specifically Norman culture no longer exists...we don't have Norman holidays, or...an American Norman Society, like you do with say Italians (I am one of those as well.)

dot_Sp0T

@James I didn't intend it as sarcasm. I just tried understanding their point by applying the logic as I understood it

@James but I will bow to your will oh great one (/s)

James

8:13 PM

@Green From what @elemtilas has said its not the +/- its the act of comparison/replacement at all.

@dot_Sp0T Gracias :)

Green

@James Okay. How can you have a meaningful and respectful discussion about two groups of people then? Can we make a distinction between abstraction and objectification?

James

@Green probably? I think so at least.

Green

I see objectification as a striping away of someone's humanity and unique individual attributes. I usually think this way in reference to the objectification of women. When you objectify women, you strip away whatever else they may be down to base physical attributes.

Abstraction is peeling away the individual attributes to an ever more general level. When discussing dead peoples, I don't see how you can do that in any way other than in the abstract.

Sure, the result is the same, "less individual characteristics" but when talking about dead cultures, we never had that individual information to begin with.

James

True, or at least that makes sense to me.

Green

@James Your questions, to me, appear to be about the comparison of the abstracts of groups that never had individuals (the orcs) or where the information about individuals is irrevocably lost to us (the Phoenicians/Normans/Sythians).

Hosch250

9:23 PM

@AndyD273 Loudspeaker.

Alucard

9:56 PM

i like this question about a day being a year+

elemtilas

@dot_Sp0T Elves have no objective reality in the primary world, apart from their being aspects of a literary / entertainment / gaming subcreation. We might wish otherwise!

elemtilas

10:20 PM

@James The Norman language is still spoken (both in England & France) and there are Norman cultural activities and festivities (in France at least) ... I've already explained what is bothersome here. When you take real people, human beings, in some culture, whether that culture is living or historical, and equate them with something less than human (or other than human), you are dehumanising them. Depriving them of their human dignity.

scohe001

11:14 PM

@Green that air-force link you sent me is giving me some great ideas! And I think in the story I'll probably split up and go the specialization route. That being said, I still need to figure out how to test for the general qualities I'm looking for--flexibility under pressure and magic ability. So I think I'm going to ask it for solo adventurers and then use the answers to test for that after specialization tests. I'll let it marinate a little longer in the Sandbox overnight and then post tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help!

Shalvenay

hey there @Mithrandir24601

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