The Factory Floor

Secret

00:35

Last night dream has a mindscrewy trailer of a movie, and also introduce a very mindscrewy concept that is very bizzare: Switchable curse

Shalvenay

hey there @Secret

Secret

The idea is that you walked into some temple, did something wrong so that the temple or gods or spirits or whatever curses you, and the curse can only be broken by something like love. You exploit the vague notion of love so that somehow it result in being encoded in a certain object you carry, thus the curse will be broken whenever you have said object and you can recurse yourself by doing the wrong thing with the object placed far away

As for the trailer, the short summary is that there are 4 characters in a class, and later on it is hinted that despite their photorealistic looks, the movie is not live action and the people are not even human (except for possibly one girl). The narrator then goes on saying that "Confusing? Consider the fact the the author wrote 6 stories and this is what you have so far [from the trailer]" the trailer then ends

(Almost forgot, somewhere in the middle of the trailer includes that temple curse scene)

Shalvenay

01:11

@kingledion, you about at all?

Green

01:35

@Shalvenay I was going to ask the same question.

Shalvenay

@Green heheh, how come? bbiab btw

Green

@Shalvenay bbiab?

He made a comment on one of my three books questions that I wanted to follow up on.

Shalvenay

01:49

@Green be back in a bit, and back

Green

@Shalvenay ah, duh.

:)

kingledion

02:08

@Shalvenay Whats going on

Just got over that Vikings game. Did you see the walk-off TD?

Now that is a playoff ending

Shalvenay

@kingledion not too much, and I did not, although I did hear about it. I'm miffed that the Steelers gave the game away to the Jags, myself. on another note, did you get to read the link I sent last night?

kingledion

@Green What comment?

The grain one...what did I say...

Green

@kingledion I have a new meta question up as a result of your comment about things can be ordered with an ordering function.

kingledion

Oh

@Green The fact that you have to publish your ordering algorithm just shows how unreasonable people are being

@Shalvenay I did not read it

Too much football and taking care of the kids

The wife went to run on the neighbors treadmill since its 15 degrees and was gone for like 3 hours

She stays at home, so when she gets a chance to talk to actual adults other than me there is no stopping her

Shalvenay

@kingledion ah, want me to re-link it then?

kingledion

02:12

Which is probably an indictment of how much attention I am giving her, really

Well, I'm pretty drunk, so I wouldn't worry about it right now

I saved the link last night

Shalvenay

ah. when do you think you'll be able to get through it?

kingledion

Was there something you wanted to know from it? I'll prioritize reading it if it is of some specific interest to you

Otherwise the list of things I want to read and haven't is pretty long

Ugh, I haven't read an incident report in years (looking at it now)

Shalvenay

@kingledion I was particularly curious as to your reaction to the suggestion that basically no mariner could have been able to maintain control of a ship under such severe conditions, or if you had some idea of some underlying error the Conti Peridot's pilot made that if fixed, would have stopped him from having the handling troubles to begin with

Green

@kingledion I'll agree that there's a ton of ambiguity in the whole scenario, but I thought my intent was pretty clear.

kingledion

@Shalvenay Well I'll try to make some time tomorrow, maybe tomorrow night. I'm taking the whole day off.

Shalvenay

02:19

@kingledion ah

Worldbuilding Meta

1

Q: Only Three Books: Ordering Function

So a few people have said that books chosen can't possible be ordered and that it's pure opinion which ones are better and better for my purpose than others. Given that any set of objects can be placed in order by means of an ordering function, below is my proposed ordering function. Any set of b...

discussion

kingledion

@Green I thought your intent was pretty clear too. Thats why I answered that Chemistry one within an hour, research included.

Shalvenay

hey there @HDE226868

HDE 226868

@Shalvenay Hey.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

Green

02:33

@kingledion all the answers I've gotten have been really insightful so far.

HDE 226868

@Shalvenay Pretty good.

Shalvenay

still recovering from the flu here, but pondering a worldbuilding thing actually....

how do you make a world dangerous in such a way that the inhabitants basically have no choice but to be exposed to those risks?

Green

@Shalvenay isn't that real life, as it is now, we're just really good at forgetting it's dangerous?

Shalvenay

@Green we're also really good at mitigating those risks, by and large. buckling our seatbelts, paying attention when we cross the street, not abusing electrical equipment too badly :P

Green

Driving a car is dangerous. Crossing the street is too. If we want to get somewhere, we have to be exposed to those dangers.

Secret

02:38

Fun fact: Nobody had ever truly broken the fourth wall

HDE 226868

To modify a Marvin the Paranoid Android quote, life's dangerous enough as it is. Why would you want to make it any more dangerous?

Secret

I have yet to see a fictional work where the fictional Verse fully mixed with reality in real time

Green

@Shalvenay ....*too badly* :smirk:

Shalvenay

@Green I'm talking more of a sense of "they can neither withdraw from the risk nor mitigate it beyond a very limited degree", and also in the sense of more supernatural than natural or technological risks

Secret

Things perhaps will be a lot more interesting when there's finally a fictional work that can do so

Shalvenay

02:42

@Green we also have things like UL listings and the CPSC :P

Green

02:54

@Shalvenay so you're talking about unmitigatable risks?

Shalvenay

@Green yeah

Green

@Shalvenay this feels like something that unbeatable monsters are good for. Or, the impending impact of a giant rock or soon to be Mt. St. Helen's.

Shalvenay

@Green or even difficult/impractical-to-beat?

Future Historian

11:52

@FerretCivilization?

Ferret Civilization

Hi

Future Historian

Do you think the Great Panic would be more realistic if it was in the immediate weeks before the Invasion?

You know: since the spacecraft enters orbit and still has yet to respond to SETI?

Or do you feel the Great Panic is realistic enough as it is?

Ferret Civilization

Up to you, personally think that even if there was no panic by that point of knowing the ship was just that. Religion would be under fire from that point on whether the aliens be in another solar system or selling cookies on my doorstep.

Future Historian

Or bombing Earth into oblivion in this case...........

Tim B

12:46

1

Q: What foods will lycanthropes and vampirism-afflicted individuals need to avoid?

In an alternate version of our world, lycanthropes and vampires have been introduced about 300 years ago, and are coexisting with us. Unfortunately, they had to adapt to our cuisine, and avoid certain ingredients altogether. Vampires don't have much trouble eating meat, especially rare, and eve...

science-based culture vampires shapeshifters

This feels like it should be closed as unclear - thoughts?

Future Historian

13:22

@FerretCivilization? Any good images of a nuclear explosion in space viewed from Earth?

Say how someone on Earth would view a nuclear explosion in space?

Because I had an idea.

As the humans realise what is happening, they launch most warheads not used against major cities are launched against the Visitor spacecraft, which vapourises most of them, and one nuke goes off, but the spacecraft survives the explosion (albeit somewhat damaged).

Ferret Civilization

A nuclear explosion in space. Well one would probably not see much.

Future Historian

I know.

But what would you see?

A flash of light?

Ferret Civilization

From NASA themselves, "First, in the absence of an atmosphere, blast disappears completely. ... There is no longer any air for the blast wave to heat and much higher frequency radiation is emitted from the weapon itself."

Future Historian

Because.........that is kind of what I am looking for.

An image with a big flash of light being seen in the sky, preferably from the surface of Earth.

@FerretCivilization? Anything?

Ferret Civilization

Besides there is no blast to see?

Future Historian

13:29

Yes.

Because I am not looking for the blast.

I am looking for a flash of light, as someone would see from Earth once a space nuclear explosion happens.

Say.....you have a bunch of people seeing a big flash of light in the sky from the surface of Earth.

That kind of thing.

Ferret Civilization

The blast is what makes the flash of light for nuclear explosions... If you want something to see just look up Modern Warfare 2.

Future Historian

Oh.

@FerretCivilization? So, you would never see the nuke go off in space from Earth?

In that case. :(

@FerretCivilization?

Is this accurate for a space nuclear explosion as seen from Earth?

This is Hawaii at 11 PM local time.

Ferret Civilization

It is in the atmosphere so yes. Kind of had to realize 1.5 km up still has air to create an explosion and all that fun stuff.

Future Historian

:(

Well, @FerretCivilization? So, 1,500 km nuclear detonation would NOT be visible from Earth?

Because now I am very confused.

How would it VISUALLY appear to humans here on Earth?

Ferret Civilization

The flash of light would be for a second.

Future Historian

13:35

If at all?

@FerretCivilization. So, not visible to humans on Earth, right?

Ferret Civilization

In the vacuum of space there would be nothing to see, it would just be a wave of radiation. Up 1,500 km there is still an atmosphere, a thin one, the nuclear bomb would explode, flash of light would happen which would be seen really quickly. Might be able to see the lingering blast with the alien ship through a telescope.

Then an EMP might fuck some stuff of.

Future Historian

But the spacecraft would still survive, though.

Right?

Albeit damaged?

Ferret Civilization

Depends on how strong a hull the spacecraft has.

Future Historian

Well, I am guessing it survived the explosion.

So, an extremely tough hull.

Still, it should be noted that I am trying to be realistic.

So...........is there any material on Earth, whether it is an element, alloy or something, that can survive that?

Ferret Civilization

A direct hit, yes, just has to be thick enough. Bunkers operate this way to survive a hit.

Future Historian

13:47

True.

In other words, despite having taken damage, it is still not dead yet.

Ferret Civilization

Everyone on the ground around the point of explosion would get a lovely EMP however. Assuming the spacecraft like most military craft can withstand this part of the nuclear explosion.

Future Historian

True.

It probably will have EMP-resistant hardware.

They are not stupid, you know.

In fact, the spacecraft does have a few nuclear missiles for space combat, and if they wanted to, could repurpose them for planetary bombardment. They just chose not to.

Thankfully.

Ferret Civilization

It was really more of a warning if you put in your story a nuclear explosion goes off, say, above the American Midwest, you just cut civilian communication and power across the continent off.

Future Historian

True.

North America goes completely dark, right?

Ferret Civilization

Not completely. There would be places that still have power, though the US grid is pretty interconnected, it would already be messed up by major cities being destroyed. It would be a major inconvenience on top of everything however.

Future Historian

14:10

So.........how much of North America goes dark?

Ferret Civilization

That depends, is what being effected already dark from the power line or plant being destroyed by a rod. Is it newer or older equipment. Inside or outside. And best of all, just dumb luck. Could have two of the same thing next to each other and watch one get fried while the other is fine.

Future Historian

Wait.

@FerretCivilization? At 17:00 hours Zulu, where is the spacecraft orbiting?

At least where is the bloody thing orbiting over?

As in: is it bombing Central Asia by then? Eastern Europe and the Middle East? What?

Ferret Civilization

When did it start bombing the US.

Future Historian

15:17 hours Zulu.

Johnny

14:26

Is there are moderator I could speak to?

Wanted advice on a question I planned to ask.

Ferret Civilization

@FutureHistorian Then 2 hours later it would be over South America

Future Historian

Oh.

So, would the Americans have any land-based nukes left?

Or are the remaining warheads all strategic bombers, SLBMs and mobile launchers by then?

@FerretCivilization? Now, what about at 16:00 hours Zulu?

How far are the Visitors along Earth's orbit at that point?

Ferret Civilization

I have already said yes on that matter but you wanted them all destroyed for your story.

An hour later they would be somewhere over the middle of Eurasia.

Future Historian

14:42

Oh.

I did not want them all destroyed.

Just most of them.

So........maybe the Americans launch a few ICBMs they have still standing, assuming they are not rendered useless at least.

So, fair enough.

One volley of surviving Minuteman IIIs, here we come!

Ferret Civilization

Up to you. Could also just say the Russians fired since all theirs would be safe when they would learn the Americans were hit.

Future Historian

True.

That should probably be more realistic.

Once they realise the Americans got bombed, aka: probably a few minutes later, the majority of Earth's ICBMs are launched, only for most of them to be shot down by Visitor point defence lasers.

James

14:57

@dot_Sp0T Thanks for verb-ing me.

dot_Sp0T

@James for you I'd do almost anything

James

@dot_Sp0T ...I have some ideas.

dot_Sp0T

@James <3

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? Question: in a realistic scenario, two-term Trump or Biden takes office by 2020?

Just curious for the fun of it.

And I wonder how First Contact would affect both of their chances at the US presidency.

HDE 226868

@James You verbed "verb"? Very meta.

3

Future Historian

15:01

Also, how probable is it that the LibDems take power? 0.01%?

Because I want to vote for Labour in the next election (both in real life and in the Visitor series), but.....Corbyn ditching the EU as well is making me switch to LibDem. I am just curious as to how First Contact may influence the 2022 elections, assuming no other snap elections kick in before that.

Oh and 2022 is when the Visitors enter orbit around Saturn.

So.........

@FerretCivilization? You might want to see this.

Black Arrow

Black Arrow, officially capitalised BLACK ARROW, was a British satellite carrier rocket. Developed during the 1960s, it was used for four launches between 1969 and 1971. Its final flight was the first and only successful orbital launch to be conducted by the United Kingdom, and placed the Prospero satellite into low Earth orbit. Black Arrow originated from studies by the Royal Aircraft Establishment for carrier rockets based on the Black Knight rocket, with the project being authorised in 1964. It was initially developed by Saunders-Roe, and later Westland Aircraft as the result of a merger. Black...

I have an idea. Would First Contact make the UK reconsider making a home made rocket for the UKSA to use rather than use rockets from the States or other nations?

For getting payloads into orbit, that is?

Ferret Civilization

Still say Trump would probably win. Already went through that conversation once here.
And probably, probably also kick the US to getting their rockets going better and to stop relying on the Russians.

Future Historian

Oh.

@FerretCivilization? So.............does the current state of space affairs in NASA mean we can get to work on a new version of the Black Arrow or a successor rocket?

#SpaceBritain!

:P

Ferret Civilization

Maybe.

Future Historian

I wonder if I could send a petition to Prime Minister May to revive the Black Arrow program.

Or if someone already beat me to it.

James

15:19

@HDE226868 :D

Worldbuilding Meta

15:32

0

Q: Know Your Site Monday: Who are the most generous users?

Welcome to 'Know Your Site' a (hopefully) every Worldbuilding trivia feature where I use the Stack Exchange Data Explorer and maybe some python parsing to find out interesting things about the site. I will post a question on Monday, and people have until Thursday at noon to guess the answer! To...

discussion trivia

Johnny

@James , can I ask you for advice on a question?

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization?

When exactly is the Falcon Heavy going to launch again?

Ferret Civilization

Whenever they said?

Johnny

@Green I'll leave the question here, in case you or someone else in the moderating community sees it and can give me advice on the matter. I want to ask a question about reloading while moving, about Centaurs and about Naga. But should I make that one question, or two very similar questions?

Someone please ping me, if you have advice on what I should do.

Feeds

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Why would the soul of a victim not be allowed to testify at his own murder trial? In this world, magic is practiced as a respectable art. A licenced practicioner, through a ritual, can summon a dead spirit back to the world of the living temporarily. This is done for a number of reasons, like se...

Future Historian

15:47

@FerretCivilization. :(

Johnny

16:01

Oh, I can use the sandbox.

Will post my question there, first.

Green

@Johnny that usually works pretty well. Give it a few days to marinate.

@Johnny usually, is one question per post.

James

16:52

@Johnny Sure

AndyD273

Huh, our story got frozen... rats.

Well, it was an interesting experiment anyway

James

@AndyD273 @Green Hola Monkeys

AndyD273

@James Sup

James

Its friggin cold here. High of 8 today...

AndyD273

Hmm, at least we're breaking double digits. It's about 10 degrees warmer today than yesterday, so that's cool I guess

Yesterday I think it got up to 3.

James

16:55

Its downright tropical then.

AndyD273

Yup, and there is a heat wave coming. Could be in the 40's by the end of the week.

James

Same here. Ill get my shorts out.

AndyD273

This was last week:

2

James

Ours was much the same.

AndyD273

Heard someone comment about nature needing a defrag. Got a little slice of summer in the middle of January

2

Johnny

17:21

@James Basically, I want to ask a question. "Would this mythical creature be good at reloading a musket while moving?" But I want to ask it about two mythical creatures. NAga, and Centaurs.

The question I have is: SHould I post two questions, one for each mythical creature?

Bellerophon

I would post 2 questions.

Johnny

Fair enough.

Shalvenay

hey there @James

dot_Sp0T

17:43

@AndyD273 boy American gardens look weird

there's but nothing at all

HDE 226868

17:57

@AndyD273 We didn't get any precipitation after the temperatures plunged again, but I've seen a couple baseball fields where animals walked across during the melting. Water pooled in the tracks while the rest evaporated; when things got colder, the holes froze, leaving an impression of the footprints . . . made of ice.

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T In America we call this a "lawn". It's like a garden, but generally only has 1 kind of plant called "grass" which we cut short. The origin of this practice is unknown, but it is nice for the purposes of running around and playing.

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 irks, in europe we don't move any more than we need to in order to be optimal worker drones

this 'lawn' seems counterintuitive. Don't you Americans have 'tarmac'?

Ferret Civilization

@dot_Sp0T Yet Americans somehow end up fatter on average.

dot_Sp0T

It must be the 'grass'

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T We generally keep that sequestered in it's own areas, called parking lots and roads, depending on their overall shape.

dot_Sp0T

18:04

@AndyD273 these 'parking lots' what do you use them for? It seemst here must be a use as it has its own name

AndyD273

We do have a proper garden, but it's dead at the moment...

dot_Sp0T

The garden is dead, long live the garden

right?

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Well, Americans own an average of 2.28 vehicles per household, so parking lots are where we let them out to graze when they are not penned up at home.

dot_Sp0T

vehicles... do you mean you Americans own buses and trains and don't need to take public ones?

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Like buses and trains, but smaller, as all that extra space would be a waste. It has advantages and disadvantages.

dot_Sp0T

18:09

you must show me

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Something like this:

dot_Sp0T

ooooh, they look so small. How do you fit 80 people in one of these?

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T squeeze them

AndyD273

dot_Sp0T

It must be uncomfortable riding in these

AndyD273

18:15

@dot_Sp0T Well, the upside is that you don't have to wait for it to stop every time some stranger wants to get on or off... The downside is that that you have to pay for the care and feeding yourself.

dot_Sp0T

there are no strangers in the Europe. We are all part of the one

3

James

@Shalvenay Shoudln't you be sleeping :D

Shalvenay

@James can't sleep all day without messing up my sleep cycle -- as it is, already had a 5-6h nap atop sleeping 8h overnight

James

@Johnny I suppose it would be best to ask one question, but I would word it in a way that isn't specific to either creature if that's possible.

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T America is too spread out for the hive mind to develop much

James

18:18

@AndyD273 I feel like that is both good and bad...

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 thank you

AndyD273

@James You can still get it here, you just have to live somewhere densely populated, like New York or LA for instance.

James

@Shalvenay I am very jealous...I used to nap like a champ but then I had to start adult-ing...

4

Shalvenay

@James -- how would an armorsmith make best use of rolled homogenous plate/sheet when makingo a suit of fullplate?

@James heh. that nap was only because I'm trying to recover from ye olde flu bug

James

@Shalvenay You talking like modern sheet steel?

AndyD273

18:22

@dot_Sp0T BTW... the joke is that's a picture of the Autobahn. It's not a good joke.

Shalvenay

@James yeah. this is kind of a followup to kingledion's answer to the Smithmoot question

dot_Sp0T

the European hive is delighted to hear that the American hive is weak

James

@Shalvenay Well you still wouldn't get much more volume out of it, but you'd be able to make platemail that is quite significantly lighter and stronger than your standard medieval fare.

It would probably take less time due to being easier to work thinner metal

Shalvenay

@James yeah, that's what seemed to be indicated -- I do wonder just how much weight could be saved?

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Not weak exactly... more schizophrenic and unpredictable, as different components do their own thing.

James

18:26

@Shalvenay Modern steel vs medieval...hazarding a guess I would say it would be 1/4 the weight.

Thats a wild, sort of educated guess.

Johnny

@Shalvenay @Shalvenay This isn't accurate. Modern steel has less slag, and more consistent quality, but largely weight and strength are quite similar.

Some of the artefacts have quality similar to modern steels. What really improved was the ability to mass-produce high quality steels and more easily work it.

For advances in material science, you need to look at more unusual alloys.

@James Oops, meant to reply to both James and Shal,

Green

18:57

@James hola!

Worldbuilding Meta

1

Q: Using "too story based" to cure "too broad"

I recently came across Why would an army train living soldiers when manufacturing robots is easier. That question struck me as terribly broadly written, and the massively disparate answers demonstrate how broad it is. My first instinct was to suggest that the OP narrow it down, but looking at t...

discussion

kingledion

19:22

@Secespitus Ok new rule, post facto: no edits to change your answer

Especially after I give you tips :)

Future Historian

@kingledion? So......turns out that we have a problem.

kingledion

But I'm pretty surprised you got all three right on the first try

Future Historian

1,500 km above Earth + Mach 25 velocity upon impacting the Earth's surface = how long before the rods hit the ground?

kingledion

I'll mail you some cookies if Trump hasn't started some trade war with the EU and they get confiscated by customs

Secespitus

@kingledion I suspected as much :D

Future Historian

19:23

And release their 11 kt of TNT equivalent on impact?

Secespitus

@kingledion Woohooo!

Future Historian

@kingledion? Speaking of Trump.........I am not sure whether to trust @FerretCivilization on 2 term Trump or just let Biden take office.

kingledion

@FutureHistorian Mach speeds are multiples of the speed of sound; Mach is meaningless in space, give me a speed in km/s

Future Historian

Well, I will convert.

@kingledion? You do realise that Mach 25 is the terminal velocity, right?

You know: when the rods ACTUALLY hit their target?

kingledion

@FutureHistorian Terminal velocity is depended on the drag coefficient for whatever object, so it is not a specific value

Future Historian

19:24

But I will give it a total of 11 km/s of velocity upon beginning reentry.

Probably slow down to 8.5 km/s on impact.

kingledion

And regarding trump, why would anyone know if he is going to run/win again? No one thought he would run/win the first time

1500 km / 11 km/s = ?

I think you can do that math yourself :)

Future Historian

True.

@kingledion. Perhaps because the Americans know better this time?

I think......?

2 - 3 minutes for both values.

Ignoring time to deorbit.

So....ignoring the deorbiting time, that means............

gulps

2 - 3 minutes.

Shalvenay

hey there @kingledion

PlanetGazer8360

19:57

Anyone interested in asteroid and lunar mining?

AndyD273

20:23

@PlanetGazer8360 Yes, but the commute sucks, and I wouldn't want to be away that much.

Green

@PlanetGazer8360 yes, if I can be the capitalist who stays on earth while other people do the dirty work.

HDE 226868

20:47

@PlanetGazer8360 Depends on where the asteroid in question is.

PlanetGazer8360

20:59

In my opinion it should be performed by using robots, at least controlled digitally from Earth, if not autonomous by themselves

Meaning about the actual concept by itself, not including human labour (which I think shouldn't occur in lunar and asteroid mining).

James

@AndyD273 @Green @HDE226868 Your asteroid comments are all win.

HDE 226868

21:16

@Green What if asteroid mining can somehow only succeed under a socialism?

James

@HDE226868 That would be some pretty magical irony.

PlanetGazer8360

Lunar mining, if employed with 'non-commercial' purposes, meaning in a private way, could perhaps help improve developing countries' economies, perhaps eradicating all poverty in the very long term, if an overall international system for developing countries was established

Perhaps the same occurring with asteroid mining

AndyD273

@PlanetGazer8360 How do you do that? What is a non commercial purpose that you could put that too?

PlanetGazer8360

I'm really just speculating, I haven't even got any idea if such system could work

With a non-commercial purpose, I really mean a system that would mainly benefit developing countries (not meaning prejudicing developed countries), not a single private company located in a single country

It obviously wouldn't be an easy task to accomplish, but if done (again, I have no idea if such system could work), it would have positive impact in developing countries

AndyD273

The money from selling it could be used to improve developing countries, but since anything in space is going to be expensive for the foreseeable future, it's going to take a lot of capitol to get started, which probably means several governments/multinational companies... I mean, I guess all the developing nations could pool their money to launch the venture. If they have the kind of money to do it.

It's be a big risk, but could have a big payout

PlanetGazer8360

21:28

Rockets probably wouldn't be a very good idea for transporting resources from the Moon to Earth (perhaps to the Moon itself, in the far future), as even though there are known water ice deposits found in the Lunar poles, lots of work, money and energy would be required for extracting that ice, and turning it into fuel, which in turn wouldn't pay off by the sold resources transported in the rocket, because of mass and volume restrictions.

AndyD273

most likely a few developed nations would have to subsidize it, which is a better use than weapons, and would probably want some kind of deal on the returned minerals. So they would be putting up the money, the developing nation would take on the risk and labor, and the developed nation would get a return on their investment...

@PlanetGazer8360 The moon has a small gravity well. Probably use some kind of mass accelerator instead of rockets

PlanetGazer8360

That is the reason I was thinking about a 'magnetic cargo launch system' (I'm 13 years old, so this again is just a concept, with no idea if it could work), as a substitution to rocket launching with cargo missions, which would somehow work like a railgun, accelerating an object to very high speeds,

together with electromagnets to make it further accelerate, until the metallic container would hopefully escape into orbit around the Moon (not sure if this would work, I would need physics and math to check it), and then another system could transport it to earth, using perhaps plasma rockets, with low acceleration, but high speeds over time, with hydrogen transported too in metallic containers using the 'magnetic cargo launch system', and finally make its way towards Earth's surface

I would like any sort of feedback

AndyD273

The problem with being a developing nation is that you don't have much of the infrastructure. When it's a question of making sure that your people aren't starving, and keeping the rebel fighters in check, building any kind of space program is probably not going to happen. So they'd be relying on richer nations and big corporations for everything. They might get a good deal with the promise of paying it back down the road with cheaper mineral prices.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress is a 1966 science-fiction novel by American writer Robert A. Heinlein, about a lunar colony's revolt against rule from Earth. The novel expresses and discusses libertarian ideals. It is respected for its credible presentation of a comprehensively imagined future human society on both the Earth and the moon. Originally serialized in Worlds of If (December 1965, January, February, March, April 1966), the book was nominated for the Nebula Award in 1966. It received the Hugo Award for best science fiction novel in 1967. == Plot == At the time of the story, 2075, the Moon...

Check that one out if you get the chance. It's pretty close to what you're talking about.

PlanetGazer8360

OK, thank you

Its pretty depressing how governments nowadays waste tons of money in military, war and fighting is just absurd... Worldwide collaboration would indeed be better, but looking at the insensible people that are in power, Trump, Putin, Kim Jong-un... and others...

AndyD273

I haven't read it since I was around your age, but IIRC they use magnetic rail gun mass accelerators to send the ore from the moon to Earth.

@PlanetGazer8360 It's the whole "money is the root of all evil" thing. Selling weapons is big money. We just need a few more Elon Musks that want to use their skills to build non weapon things.

If he can show people that you can make a lot of money by doing non weapon things, then others will jump in, especially as he works to bring the costs down.

Also, TANSTAAFL is a big factor in this whole thing.

PlanetGazer8360

21:50

Very probably, as has happened with the electric car industry, but still, it’s probably going to be a LONG time before worldwide collaboration and international help truly starts to take place as it should be, unfortunately

AndyD273

@PlanetGazer8360 Probably. It's a difficult position. Figuring out a way to get away from the subsidies, and start investing in themselves would probably be more effective in the short term.

Bellerophon

@AndyD273 Leading to lower competition in the weapons industry allowing more money to be made there so weapon manufacturing increases.

AndyD273

@Bellerophon Maybe, or it is just more consolidated and the prices go up. Rockets and missiles use some of the same technology, and so if a lot of it is being used for space rockets...

Green

23:07

@HDE226868 you'd have to have some exceptionally convincing arguments to that effect

@PlanetGazer8360 you'd need at least two sets of robots up there. One set to do the mining and one to run and repair the robots that do the mining.

@PlanetGazer8360 this is one of the best explanations for why people spend money on military stuff. It's because they can't afford not to. slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch

Basically, it all comes down to the difficulties of coordination.

Shalvenay

23:27

hey there @Green

Green

@Shalvenay hey!

Shalvenay

how're things going?

Green

Pretty well. I think I have a set of good constraints for my Three Books Series. We'll see how it goes.

Shalvenay

improving

Green

How are you?

Shalvenay

23:39

improving here, still

should be well enough to try the work thing tomorrow

HDE 226868

@Green That's true. And I have none.

Green

@HDE226868 capitalism would win that race.

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